General Books/Reading Discussion

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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NathanC
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby NathanC » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:46 am

On a related note, my bookstore also had a copy of this available for half the price Red Famine was. I'll probably get it next.

https://www.amazon.com/Gates-Europe-His ... 0465094864

I was originally going to get it since I was looking for more information about the Holodomor, and while the book does tackle it, it only devotes a few pages to the subject. I guess that makes sense since it's aim is to provide a comprehensive history of the whole of Ukraine. That said, it does provide some interesting tidbits. Namely, the fact that the "Reds/Bolsheviks" also targeted Ukrainian Jews in progroms during the war against Russia there, and that "Ukrainization" meant that before and in the early stages of the Holodomor, the Ukrainian Communist party was 60% Ukrainian. I might get it in the future, as time and money permits.

I'm also rereading Alan Clarke's "Barbarossa". I got it back in 2013 and was completely bored, and put it away. Coming back to it now, I'm surprised how much it holds up, despite it being published originally in 1965, and the Author admitting in 1985 that even after the Soviet Archives were opened, he still stands by his conclusions. It's interesting that he correctly mentions Wehrmacht involvement in War crimes against Jews and "anti Partisan" operations, despite the prevailing wisdom at the time being that the Wehrmacht were "Worthy opponents" and clean enough to openly serve in NATO and the Bundeswehr, and that only the mean old "Waffen SS" were bad.

I'd be interested if anybody had more to say about these two.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:16 am

Denying-History wrote:Just got a copy of "The Theory and Practice of Hell" by Kogon. If it is any good I may create a pdf of it if anyone is interested.


I thought about getting this one, I’ve seen it pop up now and again. I vaguely remember one possible issue is that Kogon exaggerated the number of dead. Let us know what you think, if it’s worthwhile I will pick up a copy.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:23 am

NathanC wrote:My Bookstore had a copy of Anne Applebaum's "Red Famine", so I decided to get it on DH's recommendation.

I have to say, while I found it useful and informative, I expected more from a book written in 2017 and supposedly based on all the scholarship before it and the now open archives in Ukraine and Russia. It didn't tell me anything I didn't already know from a "top down" perspective. She does a good job explaining how the policy evolved and who exactly did what, but it wasn't anything that I hadn't read about before or found in Ukraine's verdict against the Holodomor perps. Though it was interesting to know more about Balytsky's role.

I'd say that the book's best benefit is the "bottom up" perspective; the fact that Applebaum does something similar to Saul Friedlander and shows us the view of the people affected by the famine. Another useful bit of info was the struggle to remember the Holodomor during the Cold war and after. I was honestly surprised to find out that there was little to no interest in the subject during the Cold War, in part because Americans were dubious of "atrocity stories" in general, and in part because the USSR successfully spread the idea that the famine was "Nazi Propaganda".

From what little I know, I'd recommend it as a great introduction to the topic, but would probably want to find out more from more scholarly people.


I also read this, I rushed through it because it was an e-book from the library and I finished it just a few hours before it was due back.

I thought it was a good introduction, especially for those who don’t know much about the background. I think it’s worth owning but I have other interests right now. I recommend it but I agree it served only as an introduction.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:40 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Just got a copy of "The Theory and Practice of Hell" by Kogon. If it is any good I may create a pdf of it if anyone is interested.


I thought about getting this one, I’ve seen it pop up now and again. I vaguely remember one possible issue is that Kogon exaggerated the number of dead. Let us know what you think, if it’s worthwhile I will pick up a copy.

He estimates 3.5 to 4.5 million deaths at Auschwitz. That's about the only exaggeration I can think of from my skimming.
« I want people to experience exactly what it meant to enter a gas chamber at Auschwitz, I want them to walk down the stairs into the chamber, to stand before the ovens and see that this was insane and criminal. I want it to be a slap in the face. You can’t create memory, but you can create an experience that is as powerful as memory. »
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:21 am

NathanC wrote:My Bookstore had a copy of Anne Applebaum's "Red Famine", so I decided to get it on DH's recommendation...I'd recommend it as a great introduction to the topic, but would probably want to find out more from more scholarly people.

She wrote it as an a summary of the events as is described by the Ukrainians.

If you want to know what Author to read the best specialist on the famine would be Stanislav Kul'chyts'kyi. His writings are the most concrete error free works on the 1932-1933 famine to the Ukrainian countryside. His only issue exists in his description of the Ukrainian crisis. If you are ever interested in the matter do let me know via private message on here or Twitter.
« I want people to experience exactly what it meant to enter a gas chamber at Auschwitz, I want them to walk down the stairs into the chamber, to stand before the ovens and see that this was insane and criminal. I want it to be a slap in the face. You can’t create memory, but you can create an experience that is as powerful as memory. »
- Jean Claude Pressac

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:23 am

NathanC wrote:On a related note, my bookstore also had a copy of this available for half the price Red Famine was. I'll probably get it next.

https://www.amazon.com/Gates-Europe-His ... 0465094864

I was originally going to get it since I was looking for more information about the Holodomor, and while the book does tackle it, it only devotes a few pages to the subject.

I have been recommended this book, however I took the time to read/skim it at Barns & Noble. Was a bit disinterested by it so I moved on, so cannot say I would recommend it.
« I want people to experience exactly what it meant to enter a gas chamber at Auschwitz, I want them to walk down the stairs into the chamber, to stand before the ovens and see that this was insane and criminal. I want it to be a slap in the face. You can’t create memory, but you can create an experience that is as powerful as memory. »
- Jean Claude Pressac

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:41 am

I’ve got way, way too much to read but I may reset and branch out into other subjects like the Holodomor in a few months.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:49 am

That's understandable. The famine has kinda become a personal investment for me, so I have been getting every little book I can on it. Started to branch out to Nanking and the Armenian genocide some more though.
« I want people to experience exactly what it meant to enter a gas chamber at Auschwitz, I want them to walk down the stairs into the chamber, to stand before the ovens and see that this was insane and criminal. I want it to be a slap in the face. You can’t create memory, but you can create an experience that is as powerful as memory. »
- Jean Claude Pressac

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby NathanC » Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:44 am

My interest in the Holodomor started with me wanting to debunk the usual lies that Jews were behind it. I know enough to do that confidently now. That being said, I seriously do want to know more out of genuine curiosity, and the fact that there’s a growing number of far left Deniers with almost the same agenda as the Holocaust deniers, except their agenda is Anti American rather than antisemitic (though it does tend to overlap sometimes).

Other than that I’ve branched out into geopolitics. Mark Mazower’s “governing the world” is a great introduction into that particular field. He started out well by providing a great overview of how the nazis handled international relations(“Hitler’s empire”) and took it further with “Governing the world”

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:36 pm

I became interested in the Holodomor after reading Timothy Snyder’s “Bloodlands.” It had the most detail I’d seen on it up to that point.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:06 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I became interested in the Holodomor after reading Timothy Snyder’s “Bloodlands.” It had the most detail I’d seen on it up to that point.

I would probably disagree on that point, I think Applebaum has more detail on the famine and the policies then Snyder. Bloodlands is little more then a summary with minor issues to me. These studies might serve some use when you want to return to the topic:

Famine in Ukraine 1932-1933: Genocide by Other Means

Holodomor: The Great Famine in Ukraine 1932–1933

Journal of Ukrainian Studies Winter 1990

Holodomor Studies 2009
« I want people to experience exactly what it meant to enter a gas chamber at Auschwitz, I want them to walk down the stairs into the chamber, to stand before the ovens and see that this was insane and criminal. I want it to be a slap in the face. You can’t create memory, but you can create an experience that is as powerful as memory. »
- Jean Claude Pressac

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:47 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I became interested in the Holodomor after reading Timothy Snyder’s “Bloodlands.” It had the most detail I’d seen on it up to that point.

I would probably disagree on that point, I think Applebaum has more detail on the famine and the policies then Snyder. Bloodlands is little more then a summary with minor issues to me. These studies might serve some use when you want to return to the topic:

Famine in Ukraine 1932-1933: Genocide by Other Means

Holodomor: The Great Famine in Ukraine 1932–1933

Journal of Ukrainian Studies Winter 1990

Holodomor Studies 2009



I read “Bloodlands” about four years ago, Applebaum just came out with book. At that point it was the most detailed study I read about it.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:07 pm

Well mainly my point was all the studies above from memory came out before Bloodlands, but I guess it's unfair for me to assume - unintentionally - that you heard of them. Kinda my fault for misunderstanding what you meant.
« I want people to experience exactly what it meant to enter a gas chamber at Auschwitz, I want them to walk down the stairs into the chamber, to stand before the ovens and see that this was insane and criminal. I want it to be a slap in the face. You can’t create memory, but you can create an experience that is as powerful as memory. »
- Jean Claude Pressac

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:52 pm

Denying-History wrote:Well mainly my point was all the studies above from memory came out before Bloodlands, but I guess it's unfair for me to assume - unintentionally - that you heard of them. Kinda my fault for misunderstanding what you meant.


It’s alright, I didn’t explain myself very well..... :D

Thanks for the links, when I get a few minutes I’ll read them.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:32 pm

So, finished this today (helped by two days of being locked in the house due to an ice storm):
A History of Fascism

Very much recommended though very much an academic study, it looked at the various Fascist movements that developed from 1919-1945. It includes a look at post-war movements though this extends only to the early 1990’s.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:24 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Struggling a bit on figuring out what to read on Kindle next.....


I started on “Masters of Death” and I don’t like it. It’s very poorly sourced.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:24 pm

I’ve also started Dwork and Pelt’ “Holocaust” which is much better.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:43 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Struggling a bit on figuring out what to read on Kindle next.....


I started on “Masters of Death” and I don’t like it. It’s very poorly sourced.

8-)
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:55 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Struggling a bit on figuring out what to read on Kindle next.....


I started on “Masters of Death” and I don’t like it. It’s very poorly sourced.

8-)


Yeah, see, that’s what I get for not listening...... :lol:
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:57 pm

I shopped so much on Amazon lately that they are now sending me suggestions......
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:59 pm

I never ever pay attention to those. I see what they're trying to do . . . LOL
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:59 pm

Oddly nothing on the Holocaust, apparently Amazon is now telling me to get a life and branch out, they are bored with showing me the same books over and over.

:D
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:00 pm

LOL
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:01 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I never ever pay attention to those. I see what they're trying to do . . . LOL


They are telling you the same thing, “for Christ’s sake, branch out!!!!!!”

:lol:
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:06 pm

It’s odd that (((Amazon))) isn’t sending me reading suggestions about the Holocaust, I thought Jews held a stranglehold over them.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:32 pm

true dat
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:01 pm

I came across this small 88-pages booklet, and thought it could be a useful small nice pdf file for any friends of the members of this forum (not the members themselves), as the three writers discuss nicely all major aspects of the issue of HD. It has also some appendices, like who-is-who CVs of the 30 most known deniers, examples of denial, the 19 major lies etc. I've bookmarked it in order to give it away in the future, if there's a need. If someone wants to check it, I gave the following name to the pdf file:

Dr. Harold Brackman & Aaron Breitbart & Rabbi Abraham Cooper (Preface and editor), Holocaust denial's assault on memory: precursor to 21st century's genocide? [Simon Wiesenthal Center 2007]
http://www.wiesenthal.com/atf/cf/%7BDFD ... REPORT.PDF
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:56 pm

Thanks, Kleon. Back when I stumbled into this mess I found that link or something like it. It’s useful for someone just starting out, it addresses a lot of the silly arguments.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:29 am

Most denier arguments are silly, this is all the basic person would need. Most deniers don't go into detail, and even when they do most of their sources contain evidence to the opposite opinion...
« I want people to experience exactly what it meant to enter a gas chamber at Auschwitz, I want them to walk down the stairs into the chamber, to stand before the ovens and see that this was insane and criminal. I want it to be a slap in the face. You can’t create memory, but you can create an experience that is as powerful as memory. »
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:01 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’ve also started Dwork and Pelt’ “Holocaust” which is much better.


TBH, no longer enjoying this. It’s starting to feel rushed and is poor on details I consider important. I will finish it but I don’t recommend it, I’ve read better all over surveys.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:20 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:So, finished this today (helped by two days of being locked in the house due to an ice storm):
A History of Fascism

Very much recommended though very much an academic study, it looked at the various Fascist movements that developed from 1919-1945. It includes a look at post-war movements though this extends only to the early 1990’s.

about 60% through this book; it's good but I have to admit Griffin's work is a lot more exciting
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:13 am

I have Robert Paxton’s “Anatomy of Fascism,” that’s on deck.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:33 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’ve also started Dwork and Pelt’ “Holocaust” which is much better.


TBH, no longer enjoying this. It’s starting to feel rushed and is poor on details I consider important. I will finish it but I don’t recommend it, I’ve read better all over surveys.



I finished this today. I hope their book on Auschwitz is better.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:14 pm

Arad's revised Einsatz Reinhard book is now available for order on Amazon - pub date: 1 April.

I also ordered:

Johann Chapoutot, The Law of Blood: Thinking and Acting as a Nazi
Gabriel Finder, Justice Behind the Iron Curtain: Nazis on Trial in Communist Poland
Alex Kay et al Mass Violence in Nazi-Occupied Europe

I saw Finder give a paper a couple years ago, on Jewish honor courts after the war. For the Chapoutot title, I know, I know, I could head over to Rodoh and read some threads there to see people thinking and acting like Nazis, but still . . .
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:49 pm

Yeah, the hard cover version is 80.00, I’m gonna have to wait....

:D

Actually, the price makes it easier to bypass. I debated between it and some other titles, now I feel better leaving it until the price goes down.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:53 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Johann Chapoutot, The Law of Blood: Thinking and Acting as a Nazi


For the Chapoutot title, I know, I know, I could head over to Rodoh and read some threads there to see people thinking and acting like Nazis, but still . . .


If you need variety I suggest CODOH, Furtherglory or Wear’s War.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:56 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Arad's revised Einsatz Reinhard book is now available for order on Amazon - pub date: 1 April.


I’ll check it after April 1st and see if the Kindle version is cheaper.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:10 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Yeah, the hard cover version is 80.00, I’m gonna have to wait....

:D

Actually, the price makes it easier to bypass. I debated between it and some other titles, now I feel better leaving it until the price goes down.

I saw that, passed on it, then realized that the PB is just $30 . . . "The Operation Reinhard Death Camps, Revised and Expanded Edition: Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka Paperback – April 1, 2018 by YITZHAK ARAD (Author) . . . Kindle $12.99 . . . Hardcover $80.00 . . . Paperback $30.000"
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:52 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Yeah, the hard cover version is 80.00, I’m gonna have to wait....

:D

Actually, the price makes it easier to bypass. I debated between it and some other titles, now I feel better leaving it until the price goes down.

I saw that, passed on it, then realized that the PB is just $30 . . . "The Operation Reinhard Death Camps, Revised and Expanded Edition: Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka Paperback – April 1, 2018 by YITZHAK ARAD (Author) . . . Kindle $12.99 . . . Hardcover $80.00 . . . Paperback $30.000"


When I checked the paperback version it said 1999 edition.

About this item
Product information
Publisher Indiana University Press
Publication date February 1, 1999
Language English
Product Dimensions 6 x 1.1 x 9 inches

It’s odd though, I can’t pull it up on my Kindle, only on my phone.

I’ll check it again after the publish date.
“Today I saw one of those places, saw it in all of its horror, all its filth, all its death.”
Soldier entering the Ohrdruf Concentration Camp.

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Statistical Mechanic
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:10 pm

most peculiar: my order says "The Operation Reinhard Death Camps, Revised and Expanded Edition: Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka ARAD, YITZHAK" and "not released yet"

details are: "Paperback: 560 pages
Publisher: Indiana University Press; Revised, Expanded edition (April 1, 2018)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0253025419
ISBN-13: 978-0253025418
Product Dimensions: 6 x 1.8 x 9 inches"

I think that's the new edition, with a new title, etc.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944


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