General Books/Reading Discussion

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Jeffk 1970
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:44 pm

For the curious, I know I’ve mentioned it before but this was the book:
“SOBIBÓR: HOLOCAUST PROPAGANDA AND REALITY”
By Jürgen Graf, Carlo Mattogno & Thomas Kues.

It was my first Holocaust Handbook.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:35 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:. . . So, I guess in the interest of academic freedom . . .

What HD works meet actual - as opposed to pseudo - academic standards? Is "academic freedom" what HD is about? I don't now of HD works that are peer-reviewed or even produced in academic settings in which WWII and the genocide are studied and debated (instructive in this regard is the case of Hayward, whose MA thesis of 1993 has since been refuted, as replete with errors, by . . . Hayward . . . as well as by the university which accepted the thesis.)

I think HD falls more into the realm of overt political speech, a propaganda sales effort. Roger Griffin, again, from 2004:
Fascist Newspeak allows new ideological concerns such as ecology, Aids, and the Third World to be easily accommodated, as well as more up-market versions of historical revisionism (i.e., the international pseudo-academic industry bent on denying the Holocaust and euphemising Nazism.

HD adopts pseudo-scholarship - "thin" use of academic apparatus and jargon around a hollow, ideological core - as a practical tactic, part of a (failing) effort to put across fascist politics to various audiences.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:42 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote: . So, I guess in the interest of academic freedom....
What HD works meet actual - as opposed to pseudo - academic standards? Is "academic freedom" what HD is about?


No, of course not. But, making the materials available also allows someone researching the subject to read them for research purposes.

I’m not all that thrilled about the stuff being available but I’d rather err on the side of having it there, after all, like it or not, Holocaust denial is part of the history of the subject.

I think HD falls more into the realm of overt political speech, a propaganda sales effort.


You could say the same of Mein Kampf. Or the collected works of Stalin or Mao. Or Marx and Engels. Academics and researchers have read those works for years but they were originally written for mass consumption in order to sell the particular ideology. I’m sure those things are also available.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:16 pm

Agree re: Mein Kampf, Stalin, Mao but not Marx and Engels.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:22 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Damnit. Damnit.
Came across a copy of the Chronicle of the Lodz Ghetto.
I can't buy it right now.
Crap.

:mad:


Brought this into work with me to read during lunch, I’ll keep Iron Kingdom for the gym.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:01 pm

Just for the record: If you're familiar with the Dewey Decimal Classification for Libraries (this one is used in Greece usually, as far as I know), you can check the 'tree'.
It seems 'Holocaust denial' is the last subject under 'General topics of Holocaust'

Dewey Decimal Classification 22
--------------------------------------
940.5318 Holocaust
940.53181 General topics of Holocaust
940.531811 Causes
940.531813+ Economic history
940.531814+ Consequences
940.531818 Holocaust denial
940.53183+ Resistance movements and rescue operations
940.53184+ Specific events
940.53185+ Ghettos and extermination camps
940.53186+ Commemorations and memorials
940.53187 Welfare services to Holocaust victims

Of course, Library of Congress Classification uses another system.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby NathanC » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:11 pm

I finished the first volume of Ullrich's Hitler biography. I have to say that it was very well done.

Now, I'm reading Antony Beevor's account of the entire WW2. I have to say, my respect for him has increased significantly. For a historian who specializes in Europe, he does a good job depicting the Asian part of the world during the war as well. For example, he doesn't shy away from citing British atrocities against Indians, which would play a role when the Japanese invaded and some British would find themselves at the mercy of their former Indian subjects. I was first introduced to him when Roberto mentioned how "nuanced" he was in depicting the conduct of both the Nazis and the USSR as awful, and that's also here, in his accounts of both the European and Asian fronts.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:42 pm

NathanC wrote:I finished the first volume of Ullrich's Hitler biography. I have to say that it was very well done.


I agree, very good.

Now, I'm reading Antony Beevor's account of the entire WW2. I have to say, my respect for him has increased significantly. For a historian who specializes in Europe, he does a good job depicting the Asian part of the world during the war as well. For example, he doesn't shy away from citing British atrocities against Indians, which would play a role when the Japanese invaded and some British would find themselves at the mercy of their former Indian subjects. I was first introduced to him when Roberto mentioned how "nuanced" he was in depicting the conduct of both the Nazis and the USSR as awful, and that's also here, in his accounts of both the European and Asian fronts.


I read that a couple of years ago. I also thought it was a good book but, like most military histories, it’s chapter on the Holocaust was a disappointment.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:04 pm

{!#%@}, another book I have to read? Grrr.... LOL (it really is endless . . . )
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:35 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:{!#%@}, another book I have to read? Grrr.... LOL (it really is endless . . . )


Now you know how I feel!!!!!

:lol:

I really have made up my mind to buckle down in the next year and get my reading caught up.

No, really. I promise (sneakily crossing my fingers behind my back.... :D).
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:08 pm

Books just arrived today

- from Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum, Oświęcim:
1. Świebocki, editor, London Has Been Informed . . . Reports by Auschwitz Escapees
2. Piper, Jews in Auschwitz (Voices of Memory 9)
3. Lachendro, Soviet Prisoners of War in Auschwitz (Voices of Memory 11)
4. Świebocka, editor, The Architecture of the Crime: The Security and Isolation System of the Auschwitz Camp
5. Bartosik, Martyniak, & Setkiewicz, The Origins of the Birkenau Camp in the Light of the Source Materials

- from my friend Jeff Bezos:
Edele, Fitzpatrick, & Grossman, Shelter from the Holocaust: Rethinking Jewish Survival in the Soviet Union

I'd been planning to haul along with me to Sweden next week:
1. Griffin, editor, Fascism (Oxford Reader)
2. Mann, The Dark Side of Democracy: Explaining Ethnic Cleansing
3. Levene, The Crisis of Genocide Vol II: Annihilation: The European Rimlands 1939-1953
4. Payne, A History of Fascism 1914-1945

and Dulic, Utopias of Nation: Local Mass Killing in Bosnia and Herzegovina 1941-42 - if I don't finish this title before departing

However . . . today's embarrassment of riches has unsettled my plan and I am cogitating . . . asking myself, What Would Ian Do?
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:00 pm

Ian wouldn’t read books written by our masters for sheeple. After all,

But never mind all that. We are told by our masters that biological race does not exist, and that is that."
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:57 am

coming with me to Sweden:

1. Edele, Fitzpatrick, & Grossman, Shelter from the Holocaust: Rethinking Jewish Survival in the Soviet Union
2. Griffin, editor, Fascism (Oxford Reader)
3. Mann, The Dark Side of Democracy: Explaining Ethnic Cleansing
4. Levene, The Crisis of Genocide Vol II: Annihilation: The European Rimlands 1939-1953
5. Payne, A History of Fascism 1914-1945

Finished with Dulic, so I needn't tote that along. Levene will be what I read on the plane ride over.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:25 pm

I picked up two books today, Origins of the Final Solution and the SS Terror in the East: The Einsatzgruppen on Trial.

I have a pdf copy of “Origins” but it’s not a very good copy. I’ve wanted to replace it for awhile.

It is absolutely vital I hide these from my wife, I’m forbidden from buying new books at this time of the year.....LOL
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:28 am

So far . . . Levene's book is interesting but to my mind it falls short on German anti-Jewish policy when it comes to labor and selections, thus "manufacturing" some conundrums - accounted for in many of the sources in which he relies (below) - that he more or less writes his way around or about which asks series of loaded questions - never resolving many of these to any level of satisfaction. At other times he breathlessly heralds commonplaces - such as rightist authoritarian governments not being at one with the Nazis on Jewish policy - as though these were startlingly new discoveries he’s made.

Levene is definitely not with Gerlach on November-December 1941 but he fails to wrestle with Gerlach's evidence and detailed argument, whilst making rejection of the thesis central to his own case. Levene argues that every Nazi extermination action was a contingent response, more or less disconnected from a general policy, and thus that there were multiple genocides in the plural. At the same time, Levene draws a portrait of Hitler as pressing total extermination at every turn after summer 1941 based on a Herfian notion of the Jewish enemy. There seems to me to be a large black hole in the middle of Levene’s case - from November 1941 through summer 1942 - which shapes much of what he says.

Based on what seems to me to be a number of odd misreadings, Levene overlooks some connections (Theresienstadt’s role, how Globus’ empire functioned, etc) and constructs some dubious connections (especially with regard to Hitler and then to Himmler’s planning). A simple example of what bugs me: on p 146 Levene declares that the Horthy-Hitler agreement on surrender of Hungarian Jews at the time of the occupation was intended by neither side to mean immediate extermination, yet on p 147 Levene says that the Brits and Yankees knew “what was at stake” with the Hungarian deportations based on, inter alia, the Vrba-Wetzler report on mass murder at Auschwitz: in short, according to Levene, the Allies knew the truth of a Hitler policy which Hitler and Horthy had no inkling of! Nor is this kind of contradiction a one-off as Levene does the same thing with the papal nuncio’s discovery of the truth (extermination) about the deportations from Slovakia (pp 172-173) that were only at the time, according to earlier discussion (pp 118-119, 126), for labor. The explanation is simply insufficient in such instances. One problem is that nearly all Levene’s sources are secondary - good ones but secondary nonetheless.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:53 pm

What’s that Carruthers’ book like? I checked on Bezos.com and it appears to be like his Gestapo on Trial book - long almost cut and paste trial transcript quotations and such?
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:58 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:What’s that Carruthers’ book like? I checked on Bezos.com and it appears to be like his Gestapo on Trial book - long almost cut and paste trial transcript quotations and such?


It looks that way. I’m not reading it yet, I’ve put it behind some others. Right now I’m more interested in “Origins,” I started reading that this morning on the treadmill. My pdf copy was hard to read, I’m looking at it with a fresh perspective.

I’m interested in the testimony and the documents on the Einsatzgruppen book. I’m determined to soldier through it for that alone.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:38 pm

Let us know what’s in it and whether Mr Bezos should hear from me ;) I have the Nuremberg trial pdf ... which is where I assume he took a lot from
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:32 pm

The strength of Levene's book, OTOH, is that it shifts focus from German Judenpolitik to what was going on in other countries, mostly either German satellites or allies - and mostly in the borderlands. Wannsee: not a strength; the Balkans or the pogrom-like violence post-Barbarossa or Italian actions in France and Croatia or the church in southern Europe (and so on): a strength.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:07 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Let us know what’s in it and whether Mr Bezos should hear from me ;) I have the Nuremberg trial pdf ... which is where I assume he took a lot from



Speaking of the Nuremberg Trial, looking for some suggestions. I may comb back through this thread and see what’s there.

I’ve got the pdf’s but the odds of me reading through all of them are not good.

At least, I think I’ve got them. They are easy to find on-line.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby NathanC » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:45 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Let us know what’s in it and whether Mr Bezos should hear from me ;) I have the Nuremberg trial pdf ... which is where I assume he took a lot from



Speaking of the Nuremberg Trial, looking for some suggestions. I may comb back through this thread and see what’s there.

I’ve got the pdf’s but the odds of me reading through all of them are not good.

At least, I think I’ve got them. They are easy to find on-line.


The Ulf Schmidt book I mentioned: Justice at Nuremberg, Leo Alexander and the doctor’s trial. Really useful information not just about the trial, but about the politics that shaped it. I quote Kurt Blome’s testimony at anyone who dares fantasise about how the poor defendants were “tortured”.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:45 pm

I’ve dumped all of my reading projects to re-read “Origins of the Final Solution” by Christopher Browning.

I read it previously on a rather badly copied pdf I found on the internet. This is much better, I have easier access to the footnotes in the back. I’m enjoying it immensely and, as usual, I’m marking passages that I think will be useful areas to comment on (one thing I’m going to do in the upcoming years is go through other books I’ve done and open new threads or add to existing ones).

I’ve got a question:

In his introduction, Browning mentions that this was the first volume of three. What are the other two volumes or were they even published?
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:12 am

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:00 pm

OK, so, books I’ve ordered:
Eyewitness to Genocide
Anatomy of Fascism
Shoah in the Ukraine
Auschwitz
The Case for Auschwitz
The Anatomy of Fascism

I picked up Dwork’s and Van Pelt’s general history on the Holocaust and a book on the history of the USSR. I also got Kindle versions of the Origins of Nazi Genocide and a History of Fascism.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:22 pm

I received these today:

Eyewitness to Genocide
Auschwitz
The Case for Auschwitz


I feel like I don’t know as much about Auschwitz as I should, I’m trying to correct that.

I also have a Kindle copy of the Rhodes book, “Master’s of Death.” I don’t think Stat Mech liked it but I’m trying to get a better grasp on the Einsatzgruppen than I have. I also replaced my “History of Communism” by Archie Brown with a Kindle copy.

I’m continuing with “Origins.”
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:23 pm

I think I’m going to read “Eyewitness to Genocide” next and leave the Auschwitz books for later.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:25 pm

Just to clarify, reading Browning’s “Origins,” I’ve got a Kindle copy of Friedlander’s “Origins of Nazi Genocide” that I will work in as time allows.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:42 am

“Shoah in the Ukraine” came in yesterday.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:25 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’ve dumped all of my reading projects to re-read “Origins of the Final Solution” by Christopher Browning.

I read it previously on a rather badly copied pdf I found on the internet. This is much better, I have easier access to the footnotes in the back. I’m enjoying it immensely and, as usual, I’m marking passages that I think will be useful areas to comment on (one thing I’m going to do in the upcoming years is go through other books I’ve done and open new threads or add to existing ones).


Still continuing, I’m really enjoying this one. Browning is brilliant. Not regretting the replacement.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:51 am

came today:

Image

I am almost 3/4 through Mann. Next up: in the background above, Gerlach, Extremely Violent Societies. Then Desbois. (Or vice versa . . . )
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:55 am

Nice, I have a few books on shipment. Sadly all relate off the topics we normally talk about here. Mind if I ask for an update when you finish the book "in broad daylight"? (As in if its worth buying?)
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:27 pm

Denying-History wrote:Nice, I have a few books on shipment. Sadly all relate off the topics we normally talk about here. Mind if I ask for an update when you finish the book "in broad daylight"? (As in if its worth buying?)

I will let you know :)
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:22 pm

Denying-History wrote:Nice, I have a few books on shipment. Sadly all relate off the topics we normally talk about here. Mind if I ask for an update when you finish the book "in broad daylight"? (As in if its worth buying?)



What are you getting in?
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:47 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:What are you getting in?


Special Tasks: The Memoirs of an Unwanted Witness, contains a claim that Trotsky apparently played a role in the 1938 May Day riots through Poum. Grover Furr attempts to use it as evidence along with a rather ambiguous quote from a trial under the German military court. This is in someway apparently supposed to vindicate the Moscow trials, despite the main aspect of may day was that it was a CNT revolt. Poum was involved but not to any great extent, and historically speaking Trotsky had a split with Poum. (As to when I am not exactly sure of the date for the Poum-Trotsky split.) All despite "the Nazi secret archives contain[ing] no sort of evidence of anything" to do with Tukhachevskii's (so-called) Soviet military plot with Germany, that "not a jot of evidence has emerged from the German archives". This is true also for Trotsky being involved with Germany. (Conquest, Great Terror, p. 285)

Yezhov: The Rise of Stalin's "Iron Fist", is also another order form J Arch Getty. Reasoning being I want to be able to use it to challenge Yezhovs confessions, in that he apparently was part of the oppositionists. Despite himself being the one to fabricate the entire case around Kirov's murder off the top of my head.

The new ideology. Holodomor, I ordered this one mainly for a laugh. It argues that the Ukrainians blame Russians as a people for the Holodomor. It argues that the whole thing is a modern conspiracy of Ukrainian Nationalists, all despite the fact that most Historians don't blame Russians but the Soviet system. The book also claims the famine was a result of the "suicidal behavior of villages themselves" as one review put it.

The Foreign Office and the famine: British documents on Ukraine and the great famine of 1932-1933, Just a normal documents book.

And Hunger by Design: The Great Ukrainian Famine and Its Soviet ContextHunger by Design: The Great Ukrainian Famine and Its Soviet Context, because of it being a harvard publication similar to "after the holodomor".
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:53 pm

Those look interesting. I’ve got my hands full right now and there are a couple of additional books I’m looking to get right now. Maybe later on in the year I’ll revisit your list.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:11 pm

I don't think you'll find Foreign office. Maybe the others.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:40 pm

Denying-History wrote:I don't think you'll find Foreign office. Maybe the others.


I’ll take a look around when I have the time. I’ve got plenty to read, I’m alternating between Browning and Friedlander. Next up will be “Eyewitness to Genocide” along with “A History of Fascism.”
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Statistical Mechanic
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:20 pm

OK I've ticked off Dulic; Levene; Edele, Fitzpatrick, & Grossmann; Mann; Desbois; and Bartosik, Martyniak, & Setkiewicz, Origins of Birkenau in the past month. Next up: Piper, Jews in Auschwitz Voices of Memory 9 (the VOM books are nice selections of testimonies/memoirs and documents on a topic, this one with a 55 or so pp intro and then text on )
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Jeffk 1970
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:46 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’ve dumped all of my reading projects to re-read “Origins of the Final Solution” by Christopher Browning.

I read it previously on a rather badly copied pdf I found on the internet. This is much better, I have easier access to the footnotes in the back. I’m enjoying it immensely and, as usual, I’m marking passages that I think will be useful areas to comment on (one thing I’m going to do in the upcoming years is go through other books I’ve done and open new threads or add to existing ones).


Still continuing, I’m really enjoying this one. Browning is brilliant. Not regretting the replacement.


Finished this over lunch.

If you don’t have this book, get it. If you have it and haven’t read it in awhile, read it again when you have time.

I’ll have some more to add from this one over the weekend.
Don’t make me come down there!!!!
-God

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Jeffk 1970
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:32 pm

Getting ready to start “Eyewitness to Genocide,” hopefully this weekend.
Don’t make me come down there!!!!
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