General Books/Reading Discussion

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Jeffk 1970
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:11 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:Tangential to the Holocaust is a new book (2018) by Nikki Meredith (born 1944) with the title "The Manson Women and Me". In attempting to understand how it was possible for young girls to commit such savage murders, Meredith explores the Holocaust from several points of view and comes up with a number of tentative answers, none of which satisfy her. She discusses the Browning/Goldhagen debate and the Milgram experiment. Also a refinement of the Milgram experiment that I hadn't heard of, in which the pretend victims are brought right up next to the subject of the experiment, so the subject can actually touch them and see and hear them screaming. As it turns out, 30% of the subjects would continue to inflict pain, even when they had to physically hold the "victim"s hand against the supposed electrode. That figure of 30% is disquieting, especially in the light of the current political situation in America, but I don't want to go down that road.

Meredith explains that she herself is a Mischling; her maternal grandmother was Jewish. Meredith herself was awakened to the Holocaust by a family vacation which took them through Amsterdam when she was 12; her parents thought this would be a good time for her to read the Diary of Anne Frank. She was devastated by it, because she kept expecting it to have a happy ending. All this resonated 13 years later at the time of the Tate-LaBianca murders when one of Meredith's close high-school friends turned out to be Manson's procurer, the woman known as "Gypsy." Meredith then spent decades trying to understand how people who look so ordinary can do such horrendous things. The book is a good read in general, and I'm eager to know what final conclusion, if any, Meredith comes to.
I read “Helter Skelter” many years ago. One interesting thing about Charlie is he had a good idea which of his followers were up to this sort of thing. Not all of them were, many of them were genuine hippies.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:15 am

Meredith also discusses an experiment with Rhesus monkeys, which were trained to get food by pulling a certain chain. After they were fully trained, a second monkey in a cage whose side was a one-way mirror was placed where the subject could see it. This monkey got an electric shock every time the subject monkey pulled the chain. It was found that monkeys would fast for a quite a long time, even as much as 12 days, when they saw this happening, rather than pull the chain to get food. So, it appears there is such a thing as mirror neurons in the brain, and others can, in Bill Clinton's famous words, "feel your pain." But why were those neurons turned off in the case of so many neighbors of the Holocaust victims? That's the mystery, and I really hope we can solve it.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:55 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:Meredith also discusses an experiment with Rhesus monkeys, which were trained to get food by pulling a certain chain. After they were fully trained, a second monkey in a cage whose side was a one-way mirror was placed where the subject could see it. This monkey got an electric shock every time the subject monkey pulled the chain. It was found that monkeys would fast for a quite a long time, even as much as 12 days, when they saw this happening, rather than pull the chain to get food. So, it appears there is such a thing as mirror neurons in the brain, and others can, in Bill Clinton's famous words, "feel your pain." But why were those neurons turned off in the case of so many neighbors of the Holocaust victims? That's the mystery, and I really hope we can solve it.
I think the somewhat slow progression of persecution helped, plus the attempts to portray German Jew as the enemy outsider over the years simply dulled many Germans to what was going on. Younger Germans showed more willingness to buy into what the government was selling so the successive generation showed some enthusiasm about persecuting Jews as a whole. It definitely helped that the escalating killings occurred outside of Germany.

I used to correspond with an elderly German gentleman about this issue. He told me a couple of his uncles served on the Eastern Front and came back tales about the mass shootings of Eastern Jews. There was surprise and some disbelief about this plus there was a personal component. One of his relatives (I can’t remember off hand) married a Jewish woman. He told me that nothing ever happened to this woman, her marriage shielded her from deportation.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:18 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote: I think the somewhat slow progression of persecution helped, plus the attempts to portray German Jew as the enemy outsider over the years simply dulled many Germans to what was going on. Younger Germans showed more willingness to buy into what the government was selling so the successive generation showed some enthusiasm about persecuting Jews as a whole. It definitely helped that the escalating killings occurred outside of Germany.

I used to correspond with an elderly German gentleman about this issue. He told me a couple of his uncles served on the Eastern Front and came back tales about the mass shootings of Eastern Jews. There was surprise and some disbelief about this plus there was a personal component. One of his relatives (I can’t remember off hand) married a Jewish woman. He told me that nothing ever happened to this woman, her marriage shielded her from deportation.
I finished the book, and Meredith doesn't come to any firm conclusion. However, indirectly she gives the answer. In a word: tribalism. The neurons that control empathy are turned on when one is among "one's own kind" and get turned off quickly when any threat from "others" is perceived. That may explain why helpless babies almost always find someone to take care of them. They are not perceived as a threat.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:59 am

Himmler, Posen 6 October 1943:
I ask you that what I tell you in this circle you will really only hear and never talk about it. The question came up to us: What do to with the women and children? I decided to find a very clear solution also in this respect. This because I didn’t consider myself entitled to exterminate the men, that is, to kill them or to have them killed, and to let the children grow up as avengers against our sons and grandsons. The difficult decision had to be taken to make this people disappear from the earth.
And, 5 May 1944:
You can understand how difficult it was for me to carry out this military order which I was given and which I implemented out of a sense of obedience and absolute conviction. If you say:'we can understand as far as the men are concerned but not about the children`, then I must remind you of what I said at the beginning. In this confrontation with Asia we must get used to condemning to oblivion those rules and customs of past wars which we have got used to and prefer. In my view, we as Germans, however deeply we may feel in our hearts, are not entitled to allow a generation of avengers filled with hatred to grow up with whom our children and grandchildren will have to deal because we, too weak and cowardly, left it to them.
And, Sonthofen, 24 May 1944:
I believe, Gentleman, that you know me well enough to know that I am not a bloodthirsty person; I am not a man who takes pleasure or joy when something rough must be done. However on the other hand, I have such good nerves and such a developed sense of duty - I can say that much for myself - that when I recognise something as necessary I can implement it without compromise. I have not considered myself entitled - this concerns especially the Jewish women and children - to allow the children to grow into the avengers who will then murder our fathers and our grandchildren. That would have been cowardly. Consequently the question was uncompromisingly resolved.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:52 pm

When you were asking me - "in the case of men we agree, but we do not agree with the killing of children". Then may I remind you what I said in my first statements. In my view, we must not allow the hate filled avengers to grow up so that our children and out grandchildren have to contend with them.


Himmler, May 5th 1944. According to one denier the snip is taken out of context, but not really sure. But the Posen quote reminded me of it.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:46 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I downloaded a copy of Laurence Rees’ “The Holocaust: A New History” from the library. I didn’t want to buy it but I figured it was worth it for free. Sometimes it’s good to get back to the general histories. Before this downloaded I was re-reading Cesarani’s “Final Solution” because I have library books on deck and didn’t want to start anything new.
I will let you know what I think.
Essentially finished.

My opinion:
I thought Cesarani was better but if you are looking for a shorter generally history this is not a bad addition. I admit to a bias towards Rees, I find him an engaging author and I enjoyed some of his other books on the time period.

I think this is worth sharing regarding how he treats interviews with survivors:

“I have written elsewhere, in detail, of how we approached this difficult task2 and of the way in which, for instance, we checked wherever possible that each interviewee’s story was consistent with documents of the period. It was a long and laborious process, and if at the end of it we had any misgivings about the authenticity of a potential interviewee’s testimony then we never recorded the interview.”
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:10 am

In between books right now. I'm going to pick up the USSR history while I wait for the next book from the library.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:11 am

Waiting on "Weimar and Nazi Germany 1918-39."
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by NathanC » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:15 am

I’m currently reading Ike’s gamble: America’s rise to dominance in the Middle East. It’s not a Holocaust book, but is very relevant to the topic of Holocaust denial, since it talks about Eisenhower’s political agenda and thus provides the “context” that would’ve driven any such hoaxing. I’m only about a third into the book, but needless to say, it puts to rest any false notions that Ike faked the Holocaust for the Jews or Zionism.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:26 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Waiting on "Weimar and Nazi Germany 1918-39."
It was taking too long for this to become available. The library did have both volumes of Stephen Kotkin’s Stalin biography available. So, I checked out both at the same time which means I’ll be reading like a mad bastard during any free time I have for the next couple of weeks.

See ya later.... :D
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:58 am

Finished Holocaust Kingdom moving onto "The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran". Then after that I have:


-Talaat Pasha: Father of Modern Turkey, Architect of Genocide

-The Talat Pasha "telegrams": Historical fact or Armenian fiction?

-Killing Orders: Talat Pasha’s Telegrams and the Armenian Genocide (Refutation of book above)

-The Armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey: A Disputed Genocide

-The Young Turks' Crime against Humanity: The Armenian Genocide and Ethnic Cleansing in the Ottoman Empire

-Turks and Armenians: Nationalism and Conflict in the Ottoman Empire
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:45 pm

I forgot to mention Brody, The Trial of Pierre Laval - this book relies heavily on interviews with Laval's son in law and one of his attorneys along with trial materials; it's a poorly written, badly organized, repetitive hagiographic account of Laval and one-sided description of his trial. The chapter on the Laval trial in Bazyler/Turkheimer, which also described the flaws in the proceeding and concluded that justice was not done, was far better. What Brody gives is the partisan case "for" Laval, not a good historical assessment - there's almost no attempt to understand what motivated the prosecution in its handling of this trial and why Laval was "railroaded," little context for the postwar purges, minimal connection to Pétain's trial, and only sloganeering about the historical importance of the trial.

Aside: the effing book cost me $105 . . . I decided to buy it on a whim, my wife and I being at a restaurant in LA and talking about Vichy. Somehow I wound up showing her a title on Vichy on Amazon and in doing so got a recommendation for the Laval book, which had 5-star reviews. As I was on my iPhone, I tricked myself into doing what I tell myself never to do: get swayed by Amazon recommendations and reviews. We were in a good mood, as discussing Vichy always creates :), and my wife said, "Go for it."
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:55 pm

If I spend 105.00 on a book it better read itself to me.

:D
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:08 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Waiting on "Weimar and Nazi Germany 1918-39."
It was taking too long for this to become available. The library did have both volumes of Stephen Kotkin’s Stalin biography available. So, I checked out both at the same time which means I’ll be reading like a mad bastard during any free time I have for the next couple of weeks.

See ya later.... :D

About a third of the way through, just some general thoughts...

There are some editing and grammatical issues with this book. They are somewhat jarring to come across.

That being said it’s actually quite good. Kotkin gives some details about Stalin’s father I was not aware of along with details about the people surrounding Stalin’s family.

Kotkin also goes into a lot of detail about events in Russia during the early part of the 20th century which helps give a lot of context. I’ve gotten to the early days of the Bolshevik revolution which to start with was surprisingly bloodless.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:59 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Waiting on "Weimar and Nazi Germany 1918-39."
It was taking too long for this to become available. The library did have both volumes of Stephen Kotkin’s Stalin biography available. So, I checked out both at the same time which means I’ll be reading like a mad bastard during any free time I have for the next couple of weeks.

See ya later.... :D

About a third of the way through, just some general thoughts...

There are some editing and grammatical issues with this book. They are somewhat jarring to come across.

That being said it’s actually quite good. Kotkin gives some details about Stalin’s father I was not aware of along with details about the people surrounding Stalin’s family.

Kotkin also goes into a lot of detail about events in Russia during the early part of the 20th century which helps give a lot of context. I’ve gotten to the early days of the Bolshevik revolution which to start with was surprisingly bloodless.
Yep, took the rise of the white army to start the bloodbath that was civil war (which itself was actually surprisingly bloodless as well when compared to the world war 1 losses for the Russian empire). The actual number of deaths of soldiers was relatively low when compared with the population decline for the period. Soldier deaths between 1918-20 are estimated to be between 0.8-1.2 million and the number of victims of the White/Red Terror based on some reasonable figures puts it somewhere between 32,800-100,000 victims (12,800-50,000 Reds & 20,000-50,000 Whites). The total population decline is estimated between 6.3-9.6 million - I am inclined to accept the lower figure but it is relatively older then the higher one.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:38 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:If I spend 105.00 on a book it better read itself to me.

:D
Haffner's Defying History came to $7.03 all-in so it almost balances out :)
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by landrew » Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:03 pm

Troubled societies seem to have been led by ambitious leaders. Czar Nicholas had many failed attempts to spread Russian influence beyond Russia's borders. Unified Germany had an expansionist policy of "blood and iron" that ultimately failed. Both met with considerable strife and public unrest.

Nations which were successful in their expansion, managed to do so without impinging massive hardship on it's citizens.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:25 pm

Yeah....I don't think (kinda as a general rule now that most borders have been established....all exceptions noted) a nations wealth is any longer linked to the land. Its technology. Don't need land for that.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:52 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Waiting on "Weimar and Nazi Germany 1918-39."
It was taking too long for this to become available. The library did have both volumes of Stephen Kotkin’s Stalin biography available. So, I checked out both at the same time which means I’ll be reading like a mad bastard during any free time I have for the next couple of weeks.

See ya later.... :D

About a third of the way through, just some general thoughts...

There are some editing and grammatical issues with this book. They are somewhat jarring to come across.

That being said it’s actually quite good. Kotkin gives some details about Stalin’s father I was not aware of along with details about the people surrounding Stalin’s family.

Kotkin also goes into a lot of detail about events in Russia during the early part of the 20th century which helps give a lot of context. I’ve gotten to the early days of the Bolshevik revolution which to start with was surprisingly bloodless.
Yep, took the rise of the white army to start the bloodbath that was civil war (which itself was actually surprisingly bloodless as well when compared to the world war 1 losses for the Russian empire). The actual number of deaths of soldiers was relatively low when compared with the population decline for the period. Soldier deaths between 1918-20 are estimated to be between 0.8-1.2 million and the number of victims of the White/Red Terror based on some reasonable figures puts it somewhere between 32,800-100,000 victims (12,800-50,000 Reds & 20,000-50,000 Whites). The total population decline is estimated between 6.3-9.6 million - I am inclined to accept the lower figure but it is relatively older then the higher one.
Kotkin looks at the rebellion of the Czechoslovakian Legion as a decisive factor in spurring counterrevolution. The legion seized large portions of the Siberian railroad and breakaway factions sprang up in their wake.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:05 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:If I spend 105.00 on a book it better read itself to me.

:D
Haffner's Defying History came to $7.03 all-in so it almost balances out :)
Lol I think if I add up all my current orders it actually adds up to roughly 100.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:08 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:If I spend 105.00 on a book it better read itself to me.

:D
Haffner's Defying History came to $7.03 all-in so it almost balances out :)
Lol I think if I add up all my current orders it actually adds up to roughly 100.

I only do that about once or twice a year. The rest of the time I hunt for things at 1/2 Price Books or check out things from the library.

My in-house accountant keeps me under control.... :D
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:10 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:If I spend 105.00 on a book it better read itself to me.

:D
Haffner's Defying History came to $7.03 all-in so it almost balances out :)
Lol I think if I add up all my current orders it actually adds up to roughly 100.
one advantage to being older . . . :)
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:11 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Waiting on "Weimar and Nazi Germany 1918-39."
It was taking too long for this to become available. The library did have both volumes of Stephen Kotkin’s Stalin biography available. So, I checked out both at the same time which means I’ll be reading like a mad bastard during any free time I have for the next couple of weeks.

See ya later.... :D

About a third of the way through, just some general thoughts...

There are some editing and grammatical issues with this book. They are somewhat jarring to come across.

That being said it’s actually quite good. Kotkin gives some details about Stalin’s father I was not aware of along with details about the people surrounding Stalin’s family.

Kotkin also goes into a lot of detail about events in Russia during the early part of the 20th century which helps give a lot of context. I’ve gotten to the early days of the Bolshevik revolution which to start with was surprisingly bloodless.
Yep, took the rise of the white army to start the bloodbath that was civil war (which itself was actually surprisingly bloodless as well when compared to the world war 1 losses for the Russian empire). The actual number of deaths of soldiers was relatively low when compared with the population decline for the period. Soldier deaths between 1918-20 are estimated to be between 0.8-1.2 million and the number of victims of the White/Red Terror based on some reasonable figures puts it somewhere between 32,800-100,000 victims (12,800-50,000 Reds & 20,000-50,000 Whites). The total population decline is estimated between 6.3-9.6 million - I am inclined to accept the lower figure but it is relatively older then the higher one.
Kotkin looks at the rebellion of the Czechoslovakian Legion as a decisive factor in spurring counterrevolution. The legion seized large portions of the Siberian railroad and breakaway factions sprang up in their wake.
Honest answer on my end would be I have no idea. Haven't ordered Novikova 2018 yet and Luckett 1971 I didn't read that carefully.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:11 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:My in-house accountant keeps me under control.... :D
My inhouse accountant only encourages me, I think she has some ulterior motive LOL
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:13 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Waiting on "Weimar and Nazi Germany 1918-39."
It was taking too long for this to become available. The library did have both volumes of Stephen Kotkin’s Stalin biography available. So, I checked out both at the same time which means I’ll be reading like a mad bastard during any free time I have for the next couple of weeks.

See ya later.... :D

About a third of the way through, just some general thoughts...

There are some editing and grammatical issues with this book. They are somewhat jarring to come across.

That being said it’s actually quite good. Kotkin gives some details about Stalin’s father I was not aware of along with details about the people surrounding Stalin’s family.

Kotkin also goes into a lot of detail about events in Russia during the early part of the 20th century which helps give a lot of context. I’ve gotten to the early days of the Bolshevik revolution which to start with was surprisingly bloodless.
Yep, took the rise of the white army to start the bloodbath that was civil war (which itself was actually surprisingly bloodless as well when compared to the world war 1 losses for the Russian empire). The actual number of deaths of soldiers was relatively low when compared with the population decline for the period. Soldier deaths between 1918-20 are estimated to be between 0.8-1.2 million and the number of victims of the White/Red Terror based on some reasonable figures puts it somewhere between 32,800-100,000 victims (12,800-50,000 Reds & 20,000-50,000 Whites). The total population decline is estimated between 6.3-9.6 million - I am inclined to accept the lower figure but it is relatively older then the higher one.
Kotkin looks at the rebellion of the Czechoslovakian Legion as a decisive factor in spurring counterrevolution. The legion seized large portions of the Siberian railroad and breakaway factions sprang up in their wake.
Honest answer on my end would be I have no idea. Haven't ordered Novikova 2018 yet and Luckett 1971 I didn't read that carefully.
The one thing I’m getting is that the Bolsheviks were a disorganized mess. Easier to be revolutionaries than a government.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:15 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:My in-house accountant keeps me under control.... :D
My inhouse accountant only encourages me, I think she has some ulterior motive LOL

She wants to keep you away from racing heavy machinery.

Mine wants to keep me from having a mid-life crisis.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:19 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Waiting on "Weimar and Nazi Germany 1918-39."
It was taking too long for this to become available. The library did have both volumes of Stephen Kotkin’s Stalin biography available. So, I checked out both at the same time which means I’ll be reading like a mad bastard during any free time I have for the next couple of weeks.

See ya later.... :D

About a third of the way through, just some general thoughts...

There are some editing and grammatical issues with this book. They are somewhat jarring to come across.

That being said it’s actually quite good. Kotkin gives some details about Stalin’s father I was not aware of along with details about the people surrounding Stalin’s family.

Kotkin also goes into a lot of detail about events in Russia during the early part of the 20th century which helps give a lot of context. I’ve gotten to the early days of the Bolshevik revolution which to start with was surprisingly bloodless.
Yep, took the rise of the white army to start the bloodbath that was civil war (which itself was actually surprisingly bloodless as well when compared to the world war 1 losses for the Russian empire). The actual number of deaths of soldiers was relatively low when compared with the population decline for the period. Soldier deaths between 1918-20 are estimated to be between 0.8-1.2 million and the number of victims of the White/Red Terror based on some reasonable figures puts it somewhere between 32,800-100,000 victims (12,800-50,000 Reds & 20,000-50,000 Whites). The total population decline is estimated between 6.3-9.6 million - I am inclined to accept the lower figure but it is relatively older then the higher one.
Kotkin looks at the rebellion of the Czechoslovakian Legion as a decisive factor in spurring counterrevolution. The legion seized large portions of the Siberian railroad and breakaway factions sprang up in their wake.
Honest answer on my end would be I have no idea. Haven't ordered Novikova 2018 yet and Luckett 1971 I didn't read that carefully.
The one thing I’m getting is that the Bolsheviks were a disorganized mess. Easier to be revolutionaries than a government.
From memory they stole a number of functionaries from the old system. But I’m not really sure.

I care really more for the study of minor aspects of Soviet History. Mainly purge era (the reason Kotkin gives for it starting I disagree with) and the 1932-1933 famine (which I also disagree with Kotkin in many aspects.)
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:21 pm

LOL
She actually abetted the racing, too. She herself went to driving school, learned to drive fast (Corvette Z06). When I raced - she personally didn't like the competition on track - she was on a radio giving me instructions - pointing out what the faster drivers were doing and "suggesting" I do the same thing :) She is a damned cool individual, if about as nutty as I am. The scary part is that, we've talked so much about the Holocaust, whilst reading a biography of FDR recently, when she got to Wannsee, she told me about where the author misstated various points!
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:42 pm

LOL, another soldier recruited for the cause!!!!
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:46 pm

Well, she does think that talking with Nazis on discussion boards is odd behavior LOL
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:47 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Waiting on "Weimar and Nazi Germany 1918-39."
It was taking too long for this to become available. The library did have both volumes of Stephen Kotkin’s Stalin biography available. So, I checked out both at the same time which means I’ll be reading like a mad bastard during any free time I have for the next couple of weeks.

See ya later.... :D

About a third of the way through, just some general thoughts...

There are some editing and grammatical issues with this book. They are somewhat jarring to come across.

That being said it’s actually quite good. Kotkin gives some details about Stalin’s father I was not aware of along with details about the people surrounding Stalin’s family.

Kotkin also goes into a lot of detail about events in Russia during the early part of the 20th century which helps give a lot of context. I’ve gotten to the early days of the Bolshevik revolution which to start with was surprisingly bloodless.
Yep, took the rise of the white army to start the bloodbath that was civil war (which itself was actually surprisingly bloodless as well when compared to the world war 1 losses for the Russian empire). The actual number of deaths of soldiers was relatively low when compared with the population decline for the period. Soldier deaths between 1918-20 are estimated to be between 0.8-1.2 million and the number of victims of the White/Red Terror based on some reasonable figures puts it somewhere between 32,800-100,000 victims (12,800-50,000 Reds & 20,000-50,000 Whites). The total population decline is estimated between 6.3-9.6 million - I am inclined to accept the lower figure but it is relatively older then the higher one.
Kotkin looks at the rebellion of the Czechoslovakian Legion as a decisive factor in spurring counterrevolution. The legion seized large portions of the Siberian railroad and breakaway factions sprang up in their wake.
Honest answer on my end would be I have no idea. Haven't ordered Novikova 2018 yet and Luckett 1971 I didn't read that carefully.
The one thing I’m getting is that the Bolsheviks were a disorganized mess. Easier to be revolutionaries than a government.
From memory they stole a number of functionaries from the old system. But I’m not really sure.

I care really more for the study of minor aspects of Soviet History. Mainly purge era (the reason Kotkin gives for it starting I disagree with) and the 1932-1933 famine (which I also disagree with Kotkin in many aspects.)

I haven’t gotten that far yet. I’ve been busier than I thought I would be so the reading is going slower.

When I finish Kotkin I’m going to continue with the history of the USSR and wind that up. I’ve got some other books that are going to steer me back to Germany in the next month or so but the break has been nice.

Before I got Kotkin I started looking at Cesarani again.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:48 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Well, she does think that talking with Nazis on discussion boards is odd behavior LOL

You are not alone....my wife thinks the same. But she tolerates this behavior as long as it keeps me away from sports cars.

:lol:
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:15 pm

What does she have against sports cars? Speaking of odd behavior! LOL
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:43 pm

Ousby's book on France during the Occupation is a good read although too uncritical of de Gaulle IMO - and it restores sanity after the strange celebration of Laval written by Brody. I have left to read about France during the war years Rousso, The Vichy Syndrome; Drake, Paris at War; Mitchell, Nazi Paris; de Beauvoir, The Prime of Life; Frenay, The Night Will End; and Teissier du Cros, Divided Loyalties. I will keep these until later fall when I plan - assuming I ever recover - to be in France.

Which means doing some reading about the Holocaust in the meantime . . .
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:55 am

Anyone ever read this:
The SS of Treblinka
by Ian Baxter
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:59 am

Started it, thought it was terrible, never finished reading it.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:29 am

Good to know, thanks.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by landrew » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:31 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Anyone ever read this:
The SS of Treblinka
by Ian Baxter
Image
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:20 am

Starting a collection of papers in Microhistories of the Holocaust which has a most interesting TOC. The book grew out of a 2012 conference at ENS in Paris. Some of the (for me) intriguing topics include family histories, the destruction of Thessaloniki's Jewish cemetery, Grabowski on Poland (again), slave labor for German aviation factories, Ostrów Mazowiecka in '39, first massacres in Romania, postwar Polish trials, and a case study for "the witness vs. the archive."
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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