General Books/Reading Discussion

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Jeffk 1970
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:33 pm

So much of what we talk about deals with the history of Jews in Europe. I'm sadly deficient in this area and want to shore it up.
I've got this on hold:
Revolutionary Yiddishland
A History of Jewish Radicalism
by Alain Brossat

I'm also going to look at other titles, my library has a general history of the Jews that maybe I can read. Someday. When I don't have a million other things waiting.

I ordered a copy of "A People's Tragedy: The Russian Revolution: 1891–1924" by Orlando Figes. It's considered a classic of the genre that I'm hoping sheds some light on the Russian Revolution. Hitler's obsession with "Jewish Bolshevism" (not limited to him, of course) interests me and I'm hoping to gain more insight by reading the above books.

Naturally I still have a major reading project that I'm starting back in on now that I've finished "The End." I'm going to California in a couple of weeks, the plane trip and layovers will help me get caught up on that. I'm going to be off work for almost two weeks so I hope this will help as well.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:48 pm

Engelking recounts some disturbing and bizarre episodes. One involves the Stzajn family. Mr Stzajn had been a wealthy professional; during the war he fled to Ostrowiec, where he managed to find employment in with the Jäger concern, a German-owned producer of wines and spirits. The head of the Jäger firm protected Mr Stzajn, even warning him as the war came to a close to go into hiding until the Red Army arrived.

Stzajn took Jäger's advice and hid with his family - himself, his wife, and his two sons - with a local Pole, Wiktorowicz. Wiktorowicz apparently blackmailed and mistreated Stzajn and his family from the very outset, locking Stzajn himself in an attic and repeatedly raping Mrs Stzajn downstairs. Mrs Stzajn somehow got a letter describing the situation to a friend, Sonja Wolf.

During the war, Wolf heard nothing more from, or about, the Stzajns. However, after the war, she visited Wiktorowicz to inquire about the family. Wiktorowicz told Wolf that Home Army members had taken the Stzajns from his house and shot them. Wolf suspected otherwise and informed the Ostrowiec Jewish Committee; local authorities arrested Wiktorowicz on suspicion of murder but shortly afterwards released him when no evidence against him was found.

In 1946 wagons coming to Wiktorowicz's business jammed up in a square near his place. In the tie-up one horse reared and crunched through the pavement. The fire company was called to rescue the poor animal and, in doing so, discovered under the pavement surface some barrels in which were the remains of three people - a female of about 50 years old, a probable male, and two corpses whose sex and age could not be well determined but were likely no older than 25. The corpses showed signs of trauma (e.g., the female's "head was splintered with a blunt instrument").

The case was reopened, and this time during the inquiry Wiktorowicz's mother, along with neighbors, testified against the defendant - in Radom court in 1948 Wiktorowicz was found guilty of the murders of the the Stzajns and sentenced to death. (Engelking, pp 306-309)

Murders like this one - Polish neighbors, acquaintances, helpers of Jews in hiding - are covered a length in Engelking's book. She phases the genocide in the General Gouvernement as follows:

first phase - discrimination, exclusion, ghettoization of the Jews
second phase - Aktionen leading to mass shootings and extermination in camps
third phase - the period of the "Jew hunts," when the small number of survivors of phase two fled and went into hiding - in this phase, denunciation, betrayal and liquidations were prevalent.

Engelking concludes that local Poles could not help, or hurt, Jewish chances against the Germans much during phases one and two, but during phase three locals held the key to life and death for surviving Jews.

She assessed a sample of court cases and testimonies dealing with the third phase and found the following:

- in 300 trials, 281 instances of denunciations of Jews exposing resulting in the murders of 473 Jews
- in 500 postwar testimonies, 230 instances of betrayal resulting in the murders of 542 Jews
- the total number of Jews betrayed in the sample was over 2,500 and the murder toll was over 1,000

Engelking notes that there are 1000s of cases not sampled. (pp 317-319)

My takeaway from Grabowski's work on the blue police was the systematic assistance given the Germans by Polish police in the countryside (Dabrowa Tarnowska IIRC) in tracking down and murdering Jews in hiding; Engelking adds a new dimension - the murder of neighbors (Jews) by neighbors (Poles) during this period. In that sense, her work also forms a late-war complement to Jan Gross's study of Jedwabne during 1941 (Neighbors).
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:42 pm

Anyone read the Holocaust in the Soviet Union by Arad?

I'm thinking about getting a copy.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:44 pm

Yes. It isn't great but has a lot of basic and useful information in it. I've never sat down to look in detail at whether he's got the issues I know about right. I think it is worth reading and having.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:21 pm

Now done with Braham and Stark, pondering next book to read . . . Levine bio of Wallenberg, that Plesch book, Aalders on plunder of Dutch Jews, or Wouters on collaborating mayors in Belgium, France, Netherlands . . . big decision!
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:33 pm

I opted for mayors under the occupation, then looting of Dutch Jews . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby NathanC » Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:36 pm

I'm currently reading Stephen Ambrose' account of the Normandy Landings. I saw it was on sale, so I picked it up. I admit that it may be a little out of date but even so, It's an interesting read. Ambrose naturally depicts the battle from both the Allied and German sides. And rather than the deniers' favorite caricature of the "Evil Victors" manipulating history to make themselves look good at the expense of their enemies, Ambrose cites examples of "Humane Behavior" from the Germans; e.g. Germans treating wounded Allied Soldiers even while the battle was raging. The book basically feels like a book version of "The longest day". I'll probably Get Antony Beevor's account eventually, to see how it stacks up.

It's worth noting, of course, that with books like this one and movies like "The Longest Day", Carolyn Yaeger and the Rizolis are talking {!#%@} when they say that there's not enough attention given to the Soldiers, in particular American soldiers. There are lots of historical works (like this one) and media that cover that subject already, and some might say to the point of propaganda or "hagiography"

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Balsamo » Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:29 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I opted for mayors under the occupation, then looting of Dutch Jews . . .


Wouters is a good choice, but it is really expensive. Were you able to find a copy at a reasonable price?

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:34 pm

I wasn't. :)

(So far I think it's a really good book, I'm about 100 pp in . . . )
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed May 03, 2017 9:22 pm

Picked up "A People's Tragedy" on the way to the airport. I'm sitting in the Dallas-Fort Worth Airport reading away.

Helped take my mind off a decidedly bumpy flight from Oklahoma City.

I may discuss some of the specific Russian aspects in the General History section and add to the Bolshevist thread here.

Or, I may throw a curveball and open a Russian thread here and randomly toss in the Bolshevist stuff in random threads throughout the forum....like in the "What are you listening to" thread.
:lol:

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed May 03, 2017 10:24 pm

More likely you will be doing this . . .

Spoiler:
Image


. . . I know I would . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed May 03, 2017 10:39 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:More likely you will be doing this . . .

Spoiler:
Image


. . . I know I would . . .


Not close enough to the ocean, though I'm hoping to make it to San Francisco this time around.

I'm going to the Sacramento area, water is too cold this far North.

My flight is delayed for two hours.....yay.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Sun May 07, 2017 9:01 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:https://cdr.lib.unc.edu/indexablecontent/uuid:78921817-8def-4a32-baf4-8eaf2f740592

I just came across this. It is about the Wehrmacht and its role in the Holocaust in Belorussia.

Yes, I'm getting farther and farther behind...


I'm slowly paging through this thread to see if the topic I'm about to bring up has been mentioned, but this post introduces it for me, so---apologies if I duplicate what's on the next nine pages that I haven't yet read.

I just today (5/7/2017) watched the 2008 movie Defiance, which passed unnoticed by me at the time (I haven't been a regular movie-goer for decades), and I just by chance came across the DVD in the library yesterday and checked it out. It stars Daniel Craig as the leader of a group of Jewish refugees hiding in the forests of Belarus. Craig is excellent, and in the early scene shows the old James Bond (to whom he administered the coup de grace in the last four Bond films) in blowing people away at close range. But the movie is about the conflict and the suffering that result because Craig insists on retaining his humanity while resisting the Nazis. It is quite heart-rending in many places, and you are forced to ask yourself how you would deal with such horrors. If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it.

Craig, by the way, has either studied Russian or had an excellent Russian diction coach. His pronunciation is perfect, a stark contrast to, say, Sean Connery (that OTHER James Bond---remember him?) playing a Lithuanian submarine captain in The Hunt for Red October. When I was in Russia, I was frequently assumed to be Lithuanian or Latvian, but my accent was nothing like as atrocious as Connery's. I'm sure any Russian would have pegged him as a Scottish actor painfully enunciating syllables.
"I used to fall for the old post hoc, ergo propter hoc reasoning, but last year I took a course in logic and now I no longer do."

"So that course cured you of a logical fallacy."

"Well....possibly."

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Mon May 08, 2017 3:44 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Anyone read the Holocaust in the Soviet Union by Arad?

I'm thinking about getting a copy.


Have not read it. I have read Arkady Vaksberg's "Stalin Against the Jews" (or was it "Stalin's War on the Jews"? Not sure now). No doubt about Stalin's anti-semitism, although he posed as the champion of the Jews when it was convenient for him to do so.
"I used to fall for the old post hoc, ergo propter hoc reasoning, but last year I took a course in logic and now I no longer do."

"So that course cured you of a logical fallacy."

"Well....possibly."

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon May 08, 2017 5:30 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Anyone read the Holocaust in the Soviet Union by Arad?

I'm thinking about getting a copy.


Have not read it. I have read Arkady Vaksberg's "Stalin Against the Jews" (or was it "Stalin's War on the Jews"? Not sure now). No doubt about Stalin's anti-semitism, although he posed as the champion of the Jews when it was convenient for him to do so.



Stalin was ramping up for a good, old-fashioned, Russian-style pogrom before he died.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon May 08, 2017 5:44 pm

but Arad's book is about something different, the Nazi genocide in the occupied USSR . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Mon May 08, 2017 6:54 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:but Arad's book is about something different, the Nazi genocide in the occupied USSR . . .


Which reminds me, I meant to mention that Defiance is allegedly based on a true story. It's set in occupied Belarus, and Craig plays Tuvia Bielski, who becomes the leader of the Bielfski partisans.
"I used to fall for the old post hoc, ergo propter hoc reasoning, but last year I took a course in logic and now I no longer do."

"So that course cured you of a logical fallacy."

"Well....possibly."

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon May 15, 2017 7:56 pm

One denier argument is that the Nazis weren't so bad because they only violated international conventions regarding conduct of war in the East and, well, Commies ruled over brutish backwards types in the East, and the Soviets hadn't even signed the conventions of war and they fought illegally anyway.

Leaving aside legalistic arguments over international obligations under such treaties, was it Red treachery that caused a harsher occupation regime and methods of warfare in the East, or other factors? One consideration in this is the extent to which the Germans actually adhered to their international obligations in the West. In his book on collaborationist mayors, Wouters discusses Western perspectives on, for example, the Hague Convention (1907).

Parties to the Hague Convention included Belgium (except for II on debt recovery), France (except VI merchant ships and XIV balloon warfare), the Netherlands, and Germany (except XIV balloon warfare). Article 50 of the convention prohibits hostage-taking ("No general penalty, pecuniary or otherwise, shall be inflicted upon the population on account of the acts of individuals for which they cannot be regarded as jointly and severally responsible"). Wouters details how the Germans collaborated with local authorities, usually police forces, in Nord and Pas de Calais, the Netherlands, and Belgium to compile lists of opponents (Communists, Catholics, political adversaries, recalcitrant officials, representatives of pre-war elites, local teachers, and others) who could be taken hostage for reprisal actions. Especially in Nord and Pas de Calais the Germans executed those on these lists in reprisal for resistance activities occurring in the region. Oftentimes the official position in these regions was against turning over citizens as hostages but a combination of German pressure and bureaucratic games led to lists going to the Germans and to individuals being identified anyway. This was before all hell broke loose in 1944 and outright German warfare against the resistance, assisted by local militias (e.g., the Malice) results in massacres of civilians.

Reading Wouters, while reflecting on Hitler's reprisal orders in general, suggests that German occupation goals and strategies, the course of the war, manpower issues, German views of the population, postwar plans, and occupation structures had more to do with the character of the occupation in western countries than the Nazi's supposed adherence to international agreements. The Germans were more than willing to breach the Hague Convention if it suited their purposes - in the West. In the East, likewise, it was not legalities that shaped Barbarossa and the occupation but German goals and the conditions of warfare there.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed May 17, 2017 6:47 pm

Wouters has some very insightful things to say about postwar trials. He connects his insights to the specific cases involving deportations of Jews from the Netherlands and Belgium only in couple of instances - and that’s what I want to focus on. But first I want to summarize his perceptions about postwar trials, as I think they have widespread applicability:

Wouters argues that postwar proceedings in the Netherlands and Belgium, in regular courts or by special tribunals or in administrative actions, didn’t have a goal of creating collective memory or even of establishing historical truth. The goals of prosecutions were rather “to gather concrete building blocks to turn into convictions.” In other words, the prosecutions took place in a normal legal framework and focused on individuals.

One consequence of this seemingly simple conclusion is that the proceedings focused on the law and that which was most readily provable concerning the individuals being prosecuted. Specifically, “political collaboration” was a ready target as it was regulated by the penal code and easily observable: “This meant concentrating on visible and unambiguously political acts (such as political memberships [in militias, Rex, VNV, or the NSB], carrying uniforms, presence at certain political events, Nazi jargon used in letters or press articles). Such unambiguously political acts were the most usable in court. A second concern was focusing on crimes that could be corroborated with enough hard evidence.” This latter issue was especially important in Belgium where collaborators had destroyed the bulk of the written evidence concerning their wartime actions.

The corollary to the above focus was that, while prosecutions focused on provable illegal actions, they did not necessarily even deal with more important matters. “To put it simplistically but clearly: to have worn a uniform or carried a flag on certain occasions was often judicially more usable than repressive actions against Jewish people.”

In Wouters context, the administrative work of collaborationists in official positions (“good government”), was not only often omitted as a charge but was itself a defense: Wouters quotes one defendant’s attorney, “We did not consider administrative cooperation as collaboration with the enemy.” Wouters stresses that under the occupation the local officials had significant room for maneuver and describes how they used that in forced labor roundups, hostage lists, protecting people in hiding, etc, nor were they forced to serve, punished for not serving, and so on.

One denier myth has already been thrown out the window: that postwar trials were about a Jewish agenda or even motivated in large degree by the events that occurred as the result of anti-Jewish policies in these countries. Wouters has described how the legal approach taken by the prosecution, to the contrary, made the deportations and supporting actions less “usable” in court against the collaborationists.

Even more, the courts were lenient on the whole with regard to repressive actions by local officials (listing Jews or non-Jews for the Germans), oftentimes ascribing more weight to the provision of “good government” than to cooperative actions in repression. In addition, documentation, as noted, was lacking for many charged individuals, especially people charged with denunciations of citizens to the Germans, and the networks of persecution, being far-flung and complex, made individual responsibility hard to determine without detailed documentation.

As an example of how this worked out in the case of persecution of Jews - not Wouters’ focus - Wouters described the fate of a prosecutor’s request in Belgium in 1945. In the course of the investigation of the wartime district commissioner of Nivelles, documents surfaced relating to registration of Jews. The Nivelles military prosecutor in turn asked the chief military prosecutor, who was at the time investigating matters relating to the Jewish registration, for guidance: “Should the transfer of lists with Jews by the district commissioner . . . be considered as criminal denunciation or as an administrative act that any Belgian civil servant was allowed to undertake?” Just the question being asked undermines the notion of a witch-hunt or hoax on behalf of Jews. But the chief prosecutor had no ready answer for the local prosecutor’s inquiry - and took over 2 years, with many reminders, to reply. The official reply in 1947 explained that (Wouters’ gloss) “apparently no indictments and prosecutions had taken place for these acts anywhere in Belgium” and that the policy was to be that “if Belgian civil servants had not transferred information from these registries ‘in a particularly malevolent way, there seems to be no reason to use these facts for indictment.’” On the other hand, to support a strong case against an official on other grounds, it was permissible to use such information. Wouters: “This decision banned the Jewish registration from most judicial investigations.”

The postwar prosecutions of local officials in the Netherlands and Belgium, despite the nature of the deportations in these countries, and the assistance given the Germans by local officials and bureaucrats, barely involved actions against Jews. Which is the opposite to how deniers describe postwar trials and other proceedings.

Wouters, pp 286-290, 297-298
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed May 17, 2017 7:14 pm

"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri May 19, 2017 6:28 pm

Some interesting-looking titles due for publication over the next few months:

Offenberger, The Jews of Nazi Vienna, 1938-1945: Rescue and Destruction - hideously expensive but an important topic

Leydesdorff, Sasha Pechersky: Holocaust Hero, Sobibor Resistance Leader, and Hostage of History - one of themes might interest NathanC

Plavnieks, Nazi Collaborators on Trial during the Cold War: Viktors Arājs and the Latvian Auxiliary Security Police - for Monstrous no doubt

Grossman, Shelter from the Holocaust: Rethinking Jewish Survival in the Soviet Union - NathanC might be interested in this one

Duindam, Site of Deportation, Site of Memory: The Amsterdam Hollandsche Schouwburg and the Holocaust - to supplement my reading on the Netherlands
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri May 19, 2017 10:13 pm

Damnit. Damnit.
Came across a copy of the Chronicle of the Lodz Ghetto.
I can't buy it right now.
Crap.

:mad:

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri May 19, 2017 10:16 pm

You should. It is really a great book. How much?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri May 19, 2017 10:17 pm

50.00.

Can't get that past the accountant.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri May 19, 2017 10:21 pm

Well, at least I know what to look for. I can probably find one cheaper, this is on-line, 3rd Party seller.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri May 19, 2017 10:35 pm

Hah!!!!!!! Found it at a second book shop!!!!!
7.99!!!!!!!!
Going to pick it up.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri May 19, 2017 10:37 pm

It's going to have to wait to be read, I've got Hilberg and a people's tragedy going right now but it's good to have it.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri May 19, 2017 10:42 pm

I've wanted this one for awhile, ever since I've started looking into Chelmno hard core I felt like this one was a necessity.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri May 19, 2017 10:44 pm

Good, it is very much worth reading, especially alongside some Lodz diaries. You will see that a number of entries on that spreadsheet for Chelmno are based on the Chronicle.

The books I listed about: $404. No orders placed by me. You live with an accountant, it sounds like, whereas I live with a pusher. My pusher would say, What the heck, buy them, you'll be happy (and sit quietly reading . . . LOL)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri May 19, 2017 10:46 pm

Well, the accountant realizes that if she keeps me busy with books I won't have a major midlife crisis like quit my job or buy a fancy car.
:lol:

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Sat May 20, 2017 3:02 pm



Nice, nice, excellent work this huge encyclopedia. The very last chapter (of the second part of the second volume) dedicated to Thessaloniki, only, written by Rena Molho, a respectable Greek Jewish historian from a family that had the largest book-shop in Thessaloniki for over a century, and only a very few members survived the Holocaust.
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue May 30, 2017 2:57 am

I'm working my way through Hilberg, it's slow going as I stop to look up footnotes. I may have to stop doing that...

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue May 30, 2017 3:04 am




I downloaded all four volumes, will go through them....when I have time.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue May 30, 2017 4:47 pm

Arriving tomorrow just in time for a short trip I am taking:

Offenberger, The Jews of Nazi Vienna, 1938-1945
HG Adler, Theresienstadt 1941-1945 (first time published in English)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:29 am

Less than a week away from "The Trial of Adolf Hitler." I should get it around the 6th.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:08 am

Offenberger and Adler arrived yesterday, I fly out this morning and will decide which to start while crammed into a tiny seat on the plane. Will be gone for about a week.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:42 pm

For anyone interested, I got a print copy of Pressacs Technique and operation.

Image
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
- James Mace

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:48 pm

Denying-History wrote:For anyone interested, I got a print copy of Pressacs Technique and operation.

Image


Nice. I've never seen a print copy anywhere.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:50 pm

NathanC wrote:I'm currently reading Stephen Ambrose' account of the Normandy Landings. I saw it was on sale, so I picked it up. I admit that it may be a little out of date but even so, It's an interesting read. Ambrose naturally depicts the battle from both the Allied and German sides. And rather than the deniers' favorite caricature of the "Evil Victors" manipulating history to make themselves look good at the expense of their enemies, Ambrose cites examples of "Humane Behavior" from the Germans; e.g. Germans treating wounded Allied Soldiers even while the battle was raging. The book basically feels like a book version of "The longest day". I'll probably Get Antony Beevor's account eventually, to see how it stacks up.

It's worth noting, of course, that with books like this one and movies like "The Longest Day", Carolyn Yaeger and the Rizolis are talking {!#%@} when they say that there's not enough attention given to the Soldiers, in particular American soldiers. There are lots of historical works (like this one) and media that cover that subject already, and some might say to the point of propaganda or "hagiography"


My library has a copy of Anthony Beevor's book. If I get a chance I'll try and read it.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:51 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Less than a week away from "The Trial of Adolf Hitler." I should get it around the 6th.


Hoping this one comes in tomorrow, I've got it on hold as an e-book.
I've got it for 14 days so I'm putting everything else aside to read it.


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