General Books/Reading Discussion

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:29 pm

If this year's offerings of new books on aspects of the Holocaust were more interesting and numerous, I would not make a "context detour"!

I plan to get better at some point - and with that stunning optimism have registered for a Holocaust conference this fall. That may point me in some new directions. I don't have the schedule of sessions yet.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:59 pm

The Hollandsche Schouwburg collection is interesting in that it has material on the Dutch Jewish history, essays on the history of the Hollandsche Schouwburg before its impressment as a collection center, somewhat problematic material on the development of Judenpolitik by the occupiers, a long essay giving details of how the Hollandsche Schouwburg was used during the deportations, and a brief history of memorialization in the Netherlands, focusing on the theater, from the immediate postwar to the present. I've finished the book and, although it deepens my understanding of this aspect of the deportation program, I haven't found anything in it to challenge other sources - it's more of a detailing out of this one aspect.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby NathanC » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:53 pm

I just picked up the 2nd volume of Stephen Kotkin’s Stalin biography. I was looking for something newer and more “scholarly” than Montefiore’s book. Will say more as I go along.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:15 pm

I’m not enjoying the Hilberg book as much as I thought I would.

I think because it feels very much like an introduction, I would’ve appreciated this more a few years ago. I will finish it but I recommend this one more for someone who hasn’t read much on it yet. I do enjoy Hilberg’s writing style so that is not an issue.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:16 pm

OTOH Aly’s book was very good, I liked that he gave personal information from his own family’s experience.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:08 am

Ordered Yitzak Arad’s “The Holocaust in the Soviet Union.”
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:54 am

NathanC wrote:I just picked up the 2nd volume of Stephen Kotkin’s Stalin biography. I was looking for something newer and more “scholarly” than Montefiore’s book. Will say more as I go along.
Probably would have been better off getting Oleg Khlevniuk's "New Biography". Ether way, Kotkin's books pretty good, I think its description of soviet agriculture and industry during the 5 year plan is extremely limited by its major inability to discuss in good detail the development of periods before 1929.

Recent works of concern:
-Talaat Pasha's Report on the Armenian Genocide, 1917
-The Young Turks' Crime against Humanity
-The History of the Armenian Genocide: Ethnic Conflict from the Balkans to Anatolia to the Caucasus
-Remembrance and Denial: The Case of the Armenian Genocide (Being delivered today by 4-8 pm)

Holocaust related:

- Justice at Nuremberg by Robert E. Conot
« Yes, that may surprise some people, including my colleagues. But have no illusions. I never compelled anybody to work for me, just as we didn't compel the German people. They themselves gave us the job to do. Why did you work with me? Now, you'll have your little throat cut...but the earth will shake when we leave the scene... »
- Joseph Goebbels

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:25 pm

finished all the three Citino books on WWII from German perspective and have started Erickson, The Road to Stalingrad: Stalin's War with Germany, the first of two volumes on Soviet war and perspective on it
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:44 pm

Arad’s book on the Soviet Union arrives Friday. I’m going to finish Hilberg’s book and start on it.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:25 pm

Erickson describes Stalin's Germany policy during 1941, far from aggressive, as "appeasement." He uses that word.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:43 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Erickson describes Stalin's Germany policy during 1941, far from aggressive, as "appeasement." He uses that word.



That’s interesting, what does he base that on?
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:09 pm

In part, Stalin's reactions to intelligence about German intentions (Barbarossa) - including Soviet refusal to react for fear of damaging the alliance or blundering into a fatal provocation of Germany - but more on

1) Stalin's internal planning and speeches along with his many attempts to placate Hitler and keep the non-agression pact intact, refusing to counter German moves into areas Stalin considered Soviet interests (e.g., the Balkans) - or more accurately, countering these moves with reassurance and escalated Soviet fulfillment of German terms - Molotov's discussions with the Reich during these months trying to move the "alliance" forward even in the face of the Balkans crisis; another prominent example: Stalin's forgiving German arrears for food and military goods in the new trade agreement of early '41 in order to protect "alliance" - Erickson says that this treaty was conciliatory if not "actual appeasement"; and

2) German appraisals of Soviet policy ( Schulenburg in April '41 assuring the Führer that the Russians had been behaving "correctly" despite tensions and was prepared to make more and more concessions to Germany; Shnurre in May '41: "we could make economic demands on Moscow which would go even beyond the scope of the treaty" and they'd agree; etc).

He cites dozens and dozens of cases; he also has in the background both Stalin's military posture, with a heavy focus on defense or fortified western districts, weakly defended and supplied, and, again, German appraisals of that posture (the Feindbeurteilung of 20 May 1941, surveying the prospects for Barbarossa, which "brushed away the contrived myth about Soviet offensive intentions" which Hitler sometimes trotted out to "bemuse his incredulous commanders and frighten his reluctant allies").

(In one passage Erickson says that Stalin's policy had been "semi-appeasement.")
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:32 pm

Oops, sorry, misread what you wrote. Never mind.
:oops:

Don’t mind me.....
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:43 pm

LOL how did you read it? Anyway, worth typing out some highlights of Erickson's long chapter on this, so no problem!
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:08 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:LOL how did you read it? Anyway, worth typing out some highlights of Erickson's long chapter on this, so no problem!



Yeah, I was reading something about Hitler and tied “Hitler” and “appeasement” together.

I’ll blame it on my well-known and longstanding addiction to Benadryl....:lol:
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:22 pm

works for me :)
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:45 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’m not enjoying the Hilberg book as much as I thought I would.

I think because it feels very much like an introduction, I would’ve appreciated this more a few years ago. I will finish it but I recommend this one more for someone who hasn’t read much on it yet. I do enjoy Hilberg’s writing style so that is not an issue.



This is getting better. I changed my mind while reading the chapter on non-German volunteers.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:25 pm

“Holocaust in the Soviet Union” came in today.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:13 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’m not enjoying the Hilberg book as much as I thought I would.

I think because it feels very much like an introduction, I would’ve appreciated this more a few years ago. I will finish it but I recommend this one more for someone who hasn’t read much on it yet. I do enjoy Hilberg’s writing style so that is not an issue.



This is getting better. I changed my mind while reading the chapter on non-German volunteers.


OK, so, I was wrong. I recommend this based upon the last few chapters dealing with bystanders and rescuers.

To paraphrase, never judge a book by the first chapter.

:D

I will start “Holocaust in the Soviet Union” tomorrow.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:54 pm

I've finished vol 1 of Erickson, which is terrific (detailed, dense - the lengthy description of the battle of Stalingrad is both amazing and harrowing), and am now racing through the very different Liberation Trilogy by Atkinson, vol 1, which is good - and really fun reading, lots of little human interest details - a gentle puncturing of myths about the so-called Greatest Generation

one thing I learned was that the commander of 300 Allied paratroopers sent in to Boné, near the Algeria-Tunisia border, was named Major RG Pine-Coffin, which must have rattled the men he led just a little . . .
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:24 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’ve dumped all of my reading projects to re-read “Origins of the Final Solution” by Christopher Browning.

I read it previously on a rather badly copied pdf I found on the internet. This is much better, I have easier access to the footnotes in the back. I’m enjoying it immensely and, as usual, I’m marking passages that I think will be useful areas to comment on (one thing I’m going to do in the upcoming years is go through other books I’ve done and open new threads or add to existing ones).

I’ve got a question:

In his introduction, Browning mentions that this was the first volume of three. What are the other two volumes or were they even published?


Apparently “The Holocaust in the Soviet Union” is one of volumes talked about by Browning.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:18 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:The Hollandsche Schouwburg collection is interesting in that it has material on the Dutch Jewish history, essays on the history of the Hollandsche Schouwburg before its impressment as a collection center, somewhat problematic material on the development of Judenpolitik by the occupiers, a long essay giving details of how the Hollandsche Schouwburg was used during the deportations, and a brief history of memorialization in the Netherlands, focusing on the theater, from the immediate postwar to the present. I've finished the book and, although it deepens my understanding of this aspect of the deportation program, I haven't found anything in it to challenge other sources - it's more of a detailing out of this one aspect.

directly related: Johan van Hulst, Dutch schoolteacher who saved hundreds of Jewish children during Holocaust, dies at 107
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:35 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
I will start “Holocaust in the Soviet Union” tomorrow.


This is really good. Just enough background without being boring and it has a lot of really good detail.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:07 am

Atkinson notes a small number of avoidable Allied killings of civilians during the North Africa campaign in 1942-1943. These crimes strike me as what deniers try making of German atrocities committed during the fighting in the East, when they attempt to pass off the actions of the Einsatzgruppen in rear areas or the predations of German counter-insurgency warfare as “isolated incidents” or the consequence of “the brutalization of combat.” That is not to say that the Allied incidents described by Atkinson are not highly disturbing or that they were always handled appropriately by authorities:

- outside Arzew, following the Allied landings in Algeria in November 1942, soldiers in the Big Red One fired wildly at grape fields where locals worked; in one case, while searching for snipers, soldiers in Company K of the 18th Infantry killed an Arab civilian; nearby, 20 soldiers, mistaking a delivery truck for a tank and blasting away at the vehicle, killed the truck driver, an old man; another time, a captured Vichy soldier reached into his pocket for his ID papers whilst being interrogated - and a nervous guard bayoneted him (p 84)

- at St Cloud, Terry Allen, commander of the Big Red One, vetoed the recommendation of a regimental commander to level the town, civilians and all, with an artillery barrage - it would be politically disastrous to wipe the town out, doing so would use up valuable ammunition, and there were better ways to reach the objective, Oran - later Allen would confide, “I just couldn’t do it. Just couldn’t. There were civilians in that goddam place. I couldn’t just blast the hell outta all of them.” (pp 126-128)

- in early fighting in Tunisia, writes Atkinson, “More and more Arab looters and collaborators were shot or had their houses blown up by Allied vigilantes; rarely was there a legal process that did credit to Anglo-American jurisprudence. French troops [allied with the Americans and British] hanged Arab bodies from balcony rails in Beja as a crude warning, and commandos burned an entire Arab village in retaliation for the alleged shooting of a French forester.” (p 229)

- Colonel Thomas Drake, who commanded the 168th Infantry in the vicinity of Sbeïlta in central Tunisia during early 1943, ordered that any soldier leaving the attack lines was to be “killed at once” and further, “Teach all personnel to hate the Germans and to kill at every opportunity. I will notify you when I want prisoners taken.” (p 327)

- outside Sened Station in Tunisia, also during early 1943, “at least one wounded prisoner was executed during the return march” of the 1st Ranger Battalion (“‘I did what I was ordered to do,’ one Ranger explained years later. ‘That was a long time ago. I get a little nervous when I start telling about some of it.’”) (p 331)

- Atkinson describes how Allied troops turned on local Arabs, calling them “wogs,” and shot them “like rabbits” or “gophers” - “I saw men from another outfit shoot Arabs just to watch them jump and fall”; “Some we shoot, some we search, and some we make a deal with . . .”; locals suspected of espionage were subjected to summary execution - “We made them dig their own graves. We lined them up and shot them”; villages where suspects might be hiding were sometimes burnt to the ground; “provost marshal and judge advocate files reflected a disturbing indiscipline” - and Atkinson cites a case of murder in which a GI received a sentence of 20 years at hard labor; GIs terrorized the Algerian town of Le Tarf for two days, committing numerous gang rapes of local women - an investigation was opened, but in this case, according to Atkinson, there is no record of charges against the soldiers involved (pp 462-463)
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:59 pm

Recently finished Conot. No reading left, Lol thank god.
« Yes, that may surprise some people, including my colleagues. But have no illusions. I never compelled anybody to work for me, just as we didn't compel the German people. They themselves gave us the job to do. Why did you work with me? Now, you'll have your little throat cut...but the earth will shake when we leave the scene... »
- Joseph Goebbels

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:16 pm

Denying-History wrote:Recently finished Conot. No reading left, Lol thank god.


I’m jealous..... :D

Really into Holocaust in the Soviet Union....
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:17 pm

I've finished vol 1 of Atkinson and he is forthright about more Allied atrocities, especially executions of POWs after the liberation of Bizerte and Tunis and French maltreatment of the local Arab population following liberation - again with mixed reaction from Allied authorities. The POW camps for captured Germans were under-scoped and under-built as the Allies lowballed the size of the German force in Africa - conditions were deplorable, especially, according to Atkinson, in the French-run camps. US Army provost marshals found 21 cases in which German, Italian or other Axis prisoners were shot dead by Allied guards - at least a number of them for reasons that could not be explained. The French were found by US Army investigators to have put Axis captives to forced labor. And a British general witnessed an instance in which French prison staff used Axis prisoners to clear mines - "we consider it contrary to international law. They don't worry too much about feeding them, either."

In another vein, towards the end of the Tunisian campaign, there were many cases of German soldiers faking surrender, then shooting the Allied soldiers taking them into custody. "For twenty four hours" after some such incidents at Hill 609 near Sidi Nisr, said Omar Bradley later, "few prisoners came in from the 34th Division's front."

Now I'm back into Erickson, the Soviet offensive in early 1943, Manstein's backhand blow . . .
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:38 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Recently finished Conot. No reading left, Lol thank god.


I’m jealous..... :D

Really into Holocaust in the Soviet Union....

Idk why you would... I have to sit though an hour film on the Armenian genocide.
« Yes, that may surprise some people, including my colleagues. But have no illusions. I never compelled anybody to work for me, just as we didn't compel the German people. They themselves gave us the job to do. Why did you work with me? Now, you'll have your little throat cut...but the earth will shake when we leave the scene... »
- Joseph Goebbels

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:50 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Recently finished Conot. No reading left, Lol thank god.


I’m jealous..... :D

Really into Holocaust in the Soviet Union....

Idk why you would... I have to sit though an hour film on the Armenian genocide.


It would be nice to be caught up, I’ve got a backlog.

What is the film for, a class?
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:17 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I hoped to start Citino, The Wehrmacht's Last Stand: The German Campaigns of 1944-1945, late this afternoon, but it turns out the book arrives tomorrow, so I've picked up another sourcebook on fascism to poke through in the meantime. Citino is really a pleasure to read, despite the topic: he writes clearly, moves the narrative along briskly, is opinionated, and digs right into controversy.



I found this on Amazon tonight. I’m holding it for some other time.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:38 am

So, went completely in a different direction than what I thought.

I found a copy of Daniel Blatman’s “The Death Marches” for a really good price. Went ahead and bought it, I also bought “Forgotten Trials of the Holocaust” as a Kindle copy.

I thought about buying Arad’s update on the Reinhard Camps but in the end I decided against it. I purchased two books for the price of one, I figured I can buy Arad’s sometime in the future, there’s no Kindle version of the updated copy yet.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:44 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Recently finished Conot. No reading left, Lol thank god.


I’m jealous..... :D

Really into Holocaust in the Soviet Union....

Idk why you would... I have to sit though an hour film on the Armenian genocide.


It would be nice to be caught up, I’ve got a backlog.

What is the film for, a class?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16Sfc4cN70Y&t=2001s
« Yes, that may surprise some people, including my colleagues. But have no illusions. I never compelled anybody to work for me, just as we didn't compel the German people. They themselves gave us the job to do. Why did you work with me? Now, you'll have your little throat cut...but the earth will shake when we leave the scene... »
- Joseph Goebbels

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:52 am

Blatman’s book is also very good
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:45 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Blatman’s book is also very good



I remember you saying that. It also appears on the list of suggested reading.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:48 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Recently finished Conot. No reading left, Lol thank god.


I’m jealous..... :D

Really into Holocaust in the Soviet Union....

Idk why you would... I have to sit though an hour film on the Armenian genocide.


It would be nice to be caught up, I’ve got a backlog.

What is the film for, a class?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16Sfc4cN70Y&t=2001s


Thanks, when I get some time I’ll watch it but my viewing library is starting to backup just like my reading library.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
Edith Baneth
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:03 pm

here's a line from Erickson (1983) describing Soviet advances in Hungary in late 1944: "Budapest was becoming the key point of a ferocious defence of southern Europe, and the Hungarians were dragged by the heels into the holocaust of one of the most savage battles of the war . . . " (The Road to Berlin, p 393)
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:12 am

“Fire and Fury” is a disappointment, will not continue. I dislike the writing style, I’ll look at some other suggestions on the bombing campaigns.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:18 pm

finished Erickson's 2nd volume - surprise ending: Zhukov is first to Reichstag! anyway, an anecdote on Churchill from Atkinson's 2nd volume, which I am now reading:
During a British embassy luncheon on May 22, [1943, part of the Trident conference,] Churchill, fortified with whiskey, declared that he expected "England and the United States to run the world. . . . Why be apologetic about Anglo-Saxon superiority?" The bemused vice president, Henry A. Wallace, accused the prime minister of advocating "Anglo-Saxondom über Alles." Churchill waved away the charge. "We Anglo-Saxons" - he pronounced it schaxons - "we are the only ones who really know how to run the show."

Erickson, The Day of Battle, p 21
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:24 pm

Atkinson’s coverage of the two cold-blooded murder of POWs at Biscari airfield, by members of the US 45th Infantry, is detailed and chilling.

The American officers responsible for the two separate war crimes, carried out in the same vicinity within hours of each other, both later cited Patton’s “pep talk” as giving them leave to shoot captured enemy soldiers. Among those reporting the killings were troops who witnessed them, an Army chaplain, and two war correspondents, the latter complaining directly to Bradley (but printing not a word about the criminal executions).

Patton initially tried covering up the shootings - 73 POWs were murdered; the killings were finally investigated, on Bradley’s insistence. Here again, one of those responsible was acquitted; the other, found guilty, served a year, and then was released back to active duty after receiving clemency. Ike too covered the shootings up, his reasoning, according to Atkinson, being that it was essential to keep the public in the dark so that the Axis powers not find out about the murders and then take reprisals. The proceedings were kept secret until after the war so as not to inflame public opinion in the US.

Patton would complain to his wife, of the shootings, that some “are trying to say that I killed too many prisoners. The more I killed, the fewer men I lost, but they don’t think of that.” (Atkinson, The Day of Battle, pp 116-121)
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:05 pm

More Patton, this one on a comment he was to make after the two infamous slapping incidents in field hospitals in Sicily, as recorded by a reporter for the Daily Mail: "There is no such thing as shellshock. It's an invention of the Jews." (Atkinson, p 148)
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944


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