General Books/Reading Discussion

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Jeffk 1970
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:44 pm

For the curious, I know I’ve mentioned it before but this was the book:
“SOBIBÓR: HOLOCAUST PROPAGANDA AND REALITY”
By Jürgen Graf, Carlo Mattogno & Thomas Kues.

It was my first Holocaust Handbook.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:35 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:. . . So, I guess in the interest of academic freedom . . .

What HD works meet actual - as opposed to pseudo - academic standards? Is "academic freedom" what HD is about? I don't now of HD works that are peer-reviewed or even produced in academic settings in which WWII and the genocide are studied and debated (instructive in this regard is the case of Hayward, whose MA thesis of 1993 has since been refuted, as replete with errors, by . . . Hayward . . . as well as by the university which accepted the thesis.)

I think HD falls more into the realm of overt political speech, a propaganda sales effort. Roger Griffin, again, from 2004:
Fascist Newspeak allows new ideological concerns such as ecology, Aids, and the Third World to be easily accommodated, as well as more up-market versions of historical revisionism (i.e., the international pseudo-academic industry bent on denying the Holocaust and euphemising Nazism.

HD adopts pseudo-scholarship - "thin" use of academic apparatus and jargon around a hollow, ideological core - as a practical tactic, part of a (failing) effort to put across fascist politics to various audiences.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:42 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote: . So, I guess in the interest of academic freedom....
What HD works meet actual - as opposed to pseudo - academic standards? Is "academic freedom" what HD is about?


No, of course not. But, making the materials available also allows someone researching the subject to read them for research purposes.

I’m not all that thrilled about the stuff being available but I’d rather err on the side of having it there, after all, like it or not, Holocaust denial is part of the history of the subject.

I think HD falls more into the realm of overt political speech, a propaganda sales effort.


You could say the same of Mein Kampf. Or the collected works of Stalin or Mao. Or Marx and Engels. Academics and researchers have read those works for years but they were originally written for mass consumption in order to sell the particular ideology. I’m sure those things are also available.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:16 pm

Agree re: Mein Kampf, Stalin, Mao but not Marx and Engels.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:22 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Damnit. Damnit.
Came across a copy of the Chronicle of the Lodz Ghetto.
I can't buy it right now.
Crap.

:mad:


Brought this into work with me to read during lunch, I’ll keep Iron Kingdom for the gym.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:01 pm

Just for the record: If you're familiar with the Dewey Decimal Classification for Libraries (this one is used in Greece usually, as far as I know), you can check the 'tree'.
It seems 'Holocaust denial' is the last subject under 'General topics of Holocaust'

Dewey Decimal Classification 22
--------------------------------------
940.5318 Holocaust
940.53181 General topics of Holocaust
940.531811 Causes
940.531813+ Economic history
940.531814+ Consequences
940.531818 Holocaust denial
940.53183+ Resistance movements and rescue operations
940.53184+ Specific events
940.53185+ Ghettos and extermination camps
940.53186+ Commemorations and memorials
940.53187 Welfare services to Holocaust victims

Of course, Library of Congress Classification uses another system.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby NathanC » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:11 pm

I finished the first volume of Ullrich's Hitler biography. I have to say that it was very well done.

Now, I'm reading Antony Beevor's account of the entire WW2. I have to say, my respect for him has increased significantly. For a historian who specializes in Europe, he does a good job depicting the Asian part of the world during the war as well. For example, he doesn't shy away from citing British atrocities against Indians, which would play a role when the Japanese invaded and some British would find themselves at the mercy of their former Indian subjects. I was first introduced to him when Roberto mentioned how "nuanced" he was in depicting the conduct of both the Nazis and the USSR as awful, and that's also here, in his accounts of both the European and Asian fronts.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:42 pm

NathanC wrote:I finished the first volume of Ullrich's Hitler biography. I have to say that it was very well done.


I agree, very good.

Now, I'm reading Antony Beevor's account of the entire WW2. I have to say, my respect for him has increased significantly. For a historian who specializes in Europe, he does a good job depicting the Asian part of the world during the war as well. For example, he doesn't shy away from citing British atrocities against Indians, which would play a role when the Japanese invaded and some British would find themselves at the mercy of their former Indian subjects. I was first introduced to him when Roberto mentioned how "nuanced" he was in depicting the conduct of both the Nazis and the USSR as awful, and that's also here, in his accounts of both the European and Asian fronts.


I read that a couple of years ago. I also thought it was a good book but, like most military histories, it’s chapter on the Holocaust was a disappointment.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:04 pm

{!#%@}, another book I have to read? Grrr.... LOL (it really is endless . . . )
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:35 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:{!#%@}, another book I have to read? Grrr.... LOL (it really is endless . . . )


Now you know how I feel!!!!!

:lol:

I really have made up my mind to buckle down in the next year and get my reading caught up.

No, really. I promise (sneakily crossing my fingers behind my back.... :D).

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:08 pm

Books just arrived today

- from Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum, Oświęcim:
1. Świebocki, editor, London Has Been Informed . . . Reports by Auschwitz Escapees
2. Piper, Jews in Auschwitz (Voices of Memory 9)
3. Lachendro, Soviet Prisoners of War in Auschwitz (Voices of Memory 11)
4. Świebocka, editor, The Architecture of the Crime: The Security and Isolation System of the Auschwitz Camp
5. Bartosik, Martyniak, & Setkiewicz, The Origins of the Birkenau Camp in the Light of the Source Materials

- from my friend Jeff Bezos:
Edele, Fitzpatrick, & Grossman, Shelter from the Holocaust: Rethinking Jewish Survival in the Soviet Union

I'd been planning to haul along with me to Sweden next week:
1. Griffin, editor, Fascism (Oxford Reader)
2. Mann, The Dark Side of Democracy: Explaining Ethnic Cleansing
3. Levene, The Crisis of Genocide Vol II: Annihilation: The European Rimlands 1939-1953
4. Payne, A History of Fascism 1914-1945

and Dulic, Utopias of Nation: Local Mass Killing in Bosnia and Herzegovina 1941-42 - if I don't finish this title before departing

However . . . today's embarrassment of riches has unsettled my plan and I am cogitating . . . asking myself, What Would Ian Do?
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:00 pm

Ian wouldn’t read books written by our masters for sheeple. After all,

But never mind all that. We are told by our masters that biological race does not exist, and that is that."

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:57 am

coming with me to Sweden:

1. Edele, Fitzpatrick, & Grossman, Shelter from the Holocaust: Rethinking Jewish Survival in the Soviet Union
2. Griffin, editor, Fascism (Oxford Reader)
3. Mann, The Dark Side of Democracy: Explaining Ethnic Cleansing
4. Levene, The Crisis of Genocide Vol II: Annihilation: The European Rimlands 1939-1953
5. Payne, A History of Fascism 1914-1945

Finished with Dulic, so I needn't tote that along. Levene will be what I read on the plane ride over.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817


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