General Books/Reading Discussion

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Re: Potential new Holocaust denier joins forum.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:05 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:Howdy everyone.

We have had a new member join the forum, "trustyoursources" claiming a secret space race between Nazi, Russian, Western allies etc etc.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=27936&p=566004#p565837

I'm suspicious he is a holocaust denier as his arguments include "only winners write history"

He has asked us to watch a crank film. I haven't watched it yet.

Enjoy yourselves and do your skeptic duty, ladies and gentlemen.
:D


I watched about half, didn't get it and turned it off. If he pops back up again I'll steer him here, that's been his only post.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:19 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Arrived today:

Barbara Engelking, Such a Beautiful Sunny Day: Jews Seeking Refuge in the Polish Countryside, 1942-1945
Randolph L. Braham, The Politics of Genocide: The Holocaust in Hungary, volumes 1 and 2 (over 1800 pages)


- New book on killing of Jews in Poland exposes raw nerve
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-book-on ... raw-nerve/

The noted Israeli Holocaust historian Yehuda Bauer said the significance of Engelking’s findings was the enormity of the cruelty toward Jews that she details. “It is something that we assumed but she proves,” he said.

He said there were parallels to the way Jews were treated by the local population in other European countries like Lithuania, Bulgaria and Greece. But the sheer scope of the genocide in Poland -- half of the 6 million Jews killed in the Holocaust were Polish -- made Engelking’s findings most pertinent.
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:17 am

Thanks for that! Brought Engelking's book with me to Sweden, for when/if I finish Braham (600+ pp into it, almost 2000 pp long). Engelking works with Grabowski and Gross.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:39 pm

I have to ask you to forgive me in advance, as the book I'm posting about has been published only in Greek for the time being (I hope some Jewish institute will consider an English version in the future), but it's a very important book -and I had a little contribution in it, so I guess I can say some words about it.

As we all know, from almost 78.000 Greek Jews before the war only 10.000 or so survived.
And for my city Thessaloniki (Salonica), from about 50.000 or so Jews before the war, only a couple of thousands survived.
There were at least 6.000 Jewish kids going to elementary school in 1941.
In 1943 there were 4.500 kids under 6 years old, and a total of 12.000 under 16.

This book is the first book on Salonica Jewish kids. Its title is 'The lost Salonica kids, Infants and young children who perished in the Holocaust'. This Volume #1, entitled 'Children who do not marked with the yellow star', and it deals with kids and babies that were born from 1937 to 1943. That is, under 6 years old in early 1943, so in accordance with the German directives, they were not obliged to wear the yellow star (hence the subtitle of the book).

The writer, retired lawyer Stella Salem did a survey, which began three years ago. In this period he studied the records of the Registry Office of Thessaloniki Municipality to find data on births from 1926 to 1943. Then she compared these data with other data-bases in Greece (Jewish Museum of Thessaloniki, Thessaloniki Jewish Community), and abroad (Archive of Yad Vashem, Archive of International Tracing Services, Jerusalem Holocaust Museum) in order to find the fate of these children, how many survived and how many did not. From the data gathered by the author, it was possible to produce conclusions about not only ages, city places and neighborhoods where these children lived, but also demographic research results as their class, fathers' professions, financial status etc.
Salem doesn't present only numbers and statistics. She actually lists ALL kids and babies names, in a chapter of over a hundred pages long.

How many children survived the Holocaust?
These kids were divided into three categories. The first mentions children who were deported by the Nazis to the camps and managed to survive. Only 11 children in total were saved from this category, and all of them were displaced to Bergen Belsen. Not one preschool child that was transferred to Auschwitz has been saved. Of all the cases, I note here that of Miriam Sapporo, who was born on July 25, 1943. Three days after her birth she was put to the 'Hirsch ghetto'. When she was eight days, she was transferred to Bergen Belsen, with the last train to Poland. When she was seven months old she was transferred to another camp in Spain. And at the age of 14 months she arrived in Palestine. As the author says, 'during the first year of her life she changed three continents: Europe-Africa-Asia'.
The second category is about children who escaped death hidden somewhere, and after the war remained in Greece.
The third group is about children that were born in Thessaloniki and found their way to Palestine, before or after the occupation, for example with Italian passports through Athens or other individual cases.

Overall, not even a 100 cases of children who survived are reported.

This is a book which everyone shed tears or cries when he/she holds it in his/her hands.

See also a news report on the book by a Salonica newspaper with a rough Google translation:
- The Thessaloniki Jewish children who were exterminated by the Nazis
The identity of missing children in the Holocaust is reconstructed by the retired lawyer Stella Salem: Over 12,000 children born from 1926 to 1943 were killed

http://x2t.com/salem-kids-2

Image
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:34 am

Our very mad holocaust denying inventor has returned to tell us about the perpetual motion machine he invented. :D

"For Entertainment purposes only"
viewtopic.php?f=45&p=568110#p568107

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:02 am

The Trial of Adolf Hitler
The Beer Hall Putsch and the Rise of Nazi Germany by David King.

This one popped up in my Overdrive App with my local library. It's a pre-release for June 6th, I've put it on hold.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:04 am

Another one I've got on hold:
The Armenian Genocide
A Complete History
by Raymond Kevorkian

Right now I'm behind so I'm putting things on hold. I've got a massive reading project I'm working my way through that I'm hoping to discuss once I'm done.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:17 am

I am on page 1400 and something of Braham . . . and I still have something like 300 pp to go, in other words, a full book's worth of reading. LOL.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:14 am

Working my way through Hilberg, reading Cesarani as a complement.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:07 am

With the long pause in Holocaust debate here, it's as good a time as any for me to violate my sworn oath to myself never to work again and to begin a contract assignment - a job of undetermined length and scope. I wish I'd finished Braham before the project began (yesterday), but I didn't. I'm off to several days of meetings, after glorious and full retirement for 2-1/2 years. You may wonder what I am thinking - I know I do! :)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:10 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: I'm off to several days of meetings, after glorious and full retirement for 2-1/2 years.
My god! I have worked out who you really are! You're Frank Sinatra! :D

Frank Sinatra's Final Concert Tour (1967) (1973) (1979) (1982) (1987) (1988) (This week)
Frank.jpg
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:49 am

:lol:

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:15 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: I'm off to several days of meetings, after glorious and full retirement for 2-1/2 years.
My god! I have worked out who you really are! You're Frank Sinatra! :D

Frank Sinatra's Final Concert Tour (1967) (1973) (1979) (1982) (1987) (1988) (This week)
Frank.jpg


I thought he was the Scorpions.

We have a similar case in Greece. A rock group that for 19-20 years now gives a last concert or breaks or reunites, 'Pyx-Lax' (ancient Greek term means 'kicked by fists and legs').

Maybe you like them, they are not bad, check the first two songs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOe1bPJ ... Oe1bPJmDoA
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:27 pm

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: I'm off to several days of meetings, after glorious and full retirement for 2-1/2 years.
My god! I have worked out who you really are! You're Frank Sinatra! :D

Frank Sinatra's Final Concert Tour (1967) (1973) (1979) (1982) (1987) (1988) (This week)
Frank.jpg


I thought he was the Scorpions.


Stat Mech is much more of a punk rock fan.
:D

I like some Scorpions though they are not a favorite. I slide them in with with the hair bands of the 80's though I know they were around a lot longer than that.

80's hair bands left me cold. I liked some early Motley Crue, maybe a few other things. I preferred thrash, they were not annoyingly hokey, plus I was deep in a classic rock phase. I also liked prog bands like Kansas or Emerson, Lake and Palmer. Not a fan of Yes. I also liked punk bands like the Clash or the Ramones.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:51 pm

Not Frank, not the Scorpions or any other band like them, not prog rock, but definitely punk, post-punk, indie, alt-country . . . :) Very partial to The Fall . . . but also people like John Prine and Kelly Willis . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:01 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:alt-country


What is that? Country music Steve Bannon would listen to?

:lol:

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:09 pm

LOL
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:22 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:......not prog rock,
I want a million dollars in unmarked notes or I'm posting photos of your Rick Wakeman vinyl LP collection and your collection of silver capes signed by Rick Wakeman.
Rick Wakeman.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvAYpd264UM
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:26 am

:lol:

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:55 am

I'm a 'short-hair' bands punk/garage/CBGB/underground/indie/college rock/australian scene of rock'n'roll/a little new wave type too.
I listen to long hair bands too, from the hard rock scene I think Motley Crue, Motorhead (because they had a song R.A.M.O,N.E.S.), Danzig and a little Guns'n'Roses are good too.
Progressive bands and bands like 'one song in one side of the LP' not so much but I think ELP, early Genesis, King Crimson were good, although me beloved was Peter Hammill and Van Der Graaf Generator (I don't know if they were considered prog band but this artist was a real poet with a lot of talent in everything).

The Fall were a category by themselves. Unique case, from another planet.
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:38 am

The only long-hair band I like is The Ramones. :)

I can't believe I forgot to mention (I was so rattled by the hair band and prog rock ideas) that I still listen to a lot of '60s-'70s stuff but almost exclusively soul - and a lot of Memphis stuff (Stax-Volt, Hi, Goldwax).

When in doubt, play Mark E Smith.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:05 pm

So, been served a curve ball.

My library just got a copy of "The End," Ian Kershaw's book on the destruction of the Third Reich.

Anyone who hasn't read Kershaw's biography of Hitler needs to rectify this immediately. Get the two volume set.

I've always wanted to read "The End," I've seen it a time or two at the bookstore but decided against it. However, I can now read it for free so I'm setting Hilberg and company aside to read this. It looks like a relatively quick read so I can finish and dive back into Hilberg.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:18 pm

It's good.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:08 am

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:I'm a 'short-hair' bands.......australian scene of rock'n'roll....
By strange coincidence I came from the Australian rock and roll music industry. I owned an accounting firm and looked after most of the larger bands. I even was manager of Rose Tattoo for a while.

I've mentioned this before, but I keep running into people who fight holocaust deniers and general "woo" who come from the music industry. I don't know why, but my guess is that working in the music industry involves a lot of "sitting and waiting" and there is a lot of time to think about odd things.
:D

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:19 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:I'm a 'short-hair' bands.......australian scene of rock'n'roll....
By strange coincidence I came from the Australian rock and roll music industry. I owned an accounting firm and looked after most of the larger bands. I even was manager of Rose Tattoo for a while.

I've mentioned this before, but I keep running into people who fight holocaust deniers and general "woo" who come from the music industry. I don't know why, but my guess is that working in the music industry involves a lot of "sitting and waiting" and there is a lot of time to think about odd things.
:D


The whole world must be eternally grateful for the down-under rock'n'roll, especially from 1976-1989.
I'm not sure which one to say first, and it's impossible to put them in a hierarchically order (they are all great), Lime Spiders, Olympic Sideburns, HoodooGurus, Died Pretty, Sunnyboys, Saints, Exploding White Mice, Triffids, Ed Kuepper, Celibate Rifles, Dubrovniks, Someloves, Screaming Tribesmen, New Christs, Eastern Dark, Beasts Of Bourbon, Laughing Clowns, Lipstick Killers, Crime & The City Solution, Sacred Cowboys, or Louis Tillet, Radio Birdman, New Race, Hitmen, Go-Betweens, Foetus, Minuteman.
- Stems, The Chills, Split Enz, Verlains (I think these are from NZ).

There wasn't another decade where in one place there was such crystal, inspired, true rock'n'roll. Best sex years ever. If anyone wants to give it a try:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEZJqplj74I

I mean, it's as exciting as sex:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwBdAhuy85c
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:22 am

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:Louis Tillet
Louis and I went to uni together.
Tillet.jpg


The Australian "four on the floor" pub rock sound, probably came from late closing times. In the UK the headline band finishes at 11pm so the punters can get public transport home. In Australia the headline act would go on stage at 11pm. The audience was "pissed as newts" so the songs were kept simple.

Well.... that's my working theory!
:D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcwj86WkXb8
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:26 am

The Strangeloves LOL
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:17 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:Louis Tillet
Louis and I went to uni together.


Is there a chance Mr Tillett knows how difficult was to find his record (I specifically remember his first, 'the green' one) in Greece in the late 80s-early 90s?

Image

I was lucky because at that time, being in university, I had a job at the same time in one of the two biggest record-shops in Thessaloniki, and his record company wasn't represented in Greece by any big LPs imports from abroad firm, it was a small independent firm. And I had to go through a lot of waves til I got it. But I make him a local star, his songs were played due to my push in the city's big pubs and bars and clubs and air-waved on the radio.

And still considered one of the 'Top-10' Aussie artists:
http://www.rocknrollmonuments.gr/articl ... -80-s.html
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:31 am

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote: Is there a chance Mr Tillett knows how difficult was to find his record (I specifically remember his first, 'the green' one) in Greece in the late 80s-early 90s?
Probably not. Louis and I stopped seeing each other after he first joined the Wet Taxis. Louis took to the bottle for decades and the results weren't good. He had burn marks on his fingers from falling asleep holding cigarettes. I last saw him sleeping on the stairs backstage at the Annandale, a rock pub and he had no idea who I was.

My brother, Tom Ellard first put out the Wet Taxis as a cassette album in 1980 and, back then, it was an industrial music band. (Think Throbbing Gristle) Louis wasn't in the band then.
https://soundcloud.com/satellite-v-aust ... tled-1-2-3

The original people left the band to join Severed Heads and the Wet Taxis became a pub cover band of people from Sydney Uni, with Louis singing. Essentially the Wet Taxis band and Loius Tillet backing band are the same band. It's not my "cup of tea". Alhough I worked in the music industry with similar bigger bands, my own taste was more "Wire" and things like that. I was mostly back & forth overseas in the 90s before coming home to start an accounting firm. I had my own band (Name with-held) but got thrown out. They became Single Gun Theory.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgtvwXUr0wk
Last edited by Matthew Ellard on Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:38 am

Matthew Allard wrote:...my own taste was more "Wire" ...

Awesome band, my son says I'm an idjit for never having seen them perform. Apparently Robert Gotobed is beyond phenomenal. I love 'em.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3w656p6LGU
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:45 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: Awesome band, my son says I'm an idjit for never having seen them perform. Apparently Robert Gotobed is beyond phenomenal. I love 'em.
Wire tours Australia quite a lot. I don't know why. Around 2005 I went to the Wire home page (From memory called Pink Flag) and wrote a complimentary email and received a friendly email back from Colin Newman the singer. I was "stoked". :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ2RvSHK_B8

Colin Newman on DIY culture in music and the Internet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-uTFsUTr24

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:52 am

Map Ref is my favorite Wire song . . . thanks!
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:27 pm

Among others not related to WWII, arrived today Marc Buggeln's Slave Labor in Nazi Concentration Camps, Oxford University Press, 2015, which I've added in my team's January order last minute literally, as I wanted one book more to add, in order for the final sum to be round and easy to share with my colleagues. I just saw it first, and added it to the 'basket', without looking more into it, I judged only by its title. Then I forgot about it.

So today, a little disappointed now, discovering it's mostly about a specific camp, but not a big deal to worry about, since it looks good.

(Now I know, next time I'll check here first, as back then in January I hadn't joined SSF yet. I see StatMech calls it indeed 'with a deceptive title')
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:41 pm

Buggeln's book is about Neuengamme but has a useful introduction that is more general - and I found the information on the details of Neuengamme very useful. Very strong on the subcamps and how the labor system worked. Interesting discussion IIRC extermination through labor.

In the past two days I've ordered (a) Stark on Hungary, focus on demographics, (b) a Wallenberg biography recommended by a colleague as a strong on de-mythologizing Wallenberg, and (c) Dan Plesch's book Human Rights After Hitler, discussed in the thread on websites.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:29 pm

Very nice!

Of course, I'll start to read Buggeln's book in the next days, but since you've read it, dear StatMech, do you remember anything about the following?

A book by Andrew Τ. Williams from Warrick University, 'The big trials of WWII', has been translated in Greek. And it says that in the case of Neuengamme (my sloppy translation):

Although none of the 14 defendants was acquitted, and the commander of the camp, the doctor, the head of SS and the junior officer who murdered about 1,000 prisoners with petrol injections and sentenced to death, by turning the tap of the gas chamber, killing 200 Russian POWs, others crimes in Neuengamme remained without perpetrators. The detailed narrative of how in early May 1945, shortly before the end of the war, 7,000 prisoners in the camp were taken on ships in the adjacent Bay of Neustadt and were left there for days without any care until they were bombed and sunk by the British air Force, Williams cites a host of crimes and responsibilities never charged


Do you remember in Buggeln's book anything (or maybe the chapter) about 'petrol injections'? And the 200 Russian POWs, how exactly they were killed?
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:02 pm

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Arrived today:

Barbara Engelking, Such a Beautiful Sunny Day: Jews Seeking Refuge in the Polish Countryside, 1942-1945
Randolph L. Braham, The Politics of Genocide: The Holocaust in Hungary, volumes 1 and 2 (over 1800 pages)


- New book on killing of Jews in Poland exposes raw nerve
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-book-on ... raw-nerve/

The noted Israeli Holocaust historian Yehuda Bauer said the significance of Engelking’s findings was the enormity of the cruelty toward Jews that she details. “It is something that we assumed but she proves,” he said.

He said there were parallels to the way Jews were treated by the local population in other European countries like Lithuania, Bulgaria and Greece. But the sheer scope of the genocide in Poland -- half of the 6 million Jews killed in the Holocaust were Polish -- made Engelking’s findings most pertinent.

Four interesting bits from Engelking's book, which IMO doesn't include a lot of new findings - maybe because I've read other stuff by her and by Jan Grabowski, with whose work hers overlaps a great deal, and heard papers by Engelking, Grabowski, Natalia Aleksium, and Eliana Adler on this same topic. Contrary to the impression in the media reports, Engelking stresses over and over the difficulty for Poles' to provide assistance, the very real threat of (capital) punishment for doing so, and the poverty and other factors militating against generosity. But she doesn't prettify matters, either.

The book is based on contemporary diaries and postwar testimonies (trials, memoirs), so Mary would love it. Engelking explicitly focuses on the Jewish experience in the countryside (Jews who fled extermination actions) and does so without apology, to understand how they processed what was happening to their communities, families, and themselves. I have a colleague who is studying Chelm county and finds Engelking's book to fit well with research into that region (I asked!). Engelking is a colleague of Jan Grabowski and no doubt raises some hackles.

The study is dense with individual cases, some of which create patterns, some of which are just things that people did and recorded. Like . . .

1) Estera Cudzynowska who feigned "religious derangement" after considering suicide, as she found herself on the cusp of starvation after months of hiding alone in a forest. She claimed to have been visited by the "Mother of God" and created a legend among the locals about herself, which she used to "assure" her existence presumably through handouts from peasants whom she perceived as "naive old women." (p 151)

But more interesting to me are the cases of . . .

2) Szmul Ismach who hid with the Wnorowskis in Maków. Already having learned country ways, and speaking like a local, Ismach didn't arouse suspicion. The Wnorowskis, however, did, when the Germans found a radio in their barn. The family, along with Ismach, were imprisoned and interrogated repeatedly - and physically abused as they were grilled about the radio and about partisans. Eventually the Wnorowskis were released: "After I was released from prison I acquired self-confidence, because everybody knew that the Germans had let me go and nobody suspected anything" after this. (pp 140-141) Here, German repression and terror directed against Poles almost netted a Jewish boy in hiding but became his eventual safety net.

3) Gina Mehr described the woman in Lwów county who protected her - "She would never betray us or hand us over to the enemy; she defended us without regard for her own life" - as an "old hag [with] a strange, complicated nature, vile, unpleasant, inconsiderate, and capricious; she could turn our life into hell by her behavior; she tried to needle us, harried and insulted us, she made an impression of a person completely bereft of human feelings. She was even an antisemite . . ." (p 123)

4) Irena Lipszyc and her husband escaped a mass shooting in September 1941 in Wysock (Volhynia) by fleeing into nearby woods. There they met up with a poacher and vodka bootlegger who "was always hiding someone - during Polish rule he sheltered communists and during Soviet rule he hid Poles. . . . [O]ur request didn't make a great impression upon him. He decided to hide us. He built a shack in the forest in which we stayed for six weeks." Unfortunately, Irena's husband would subsequently starve to death. (pp 76-77, Timothy Snyder in Black Earth dates this execution to September 1942 and references Lipszyc's testimony too, pp 311-312)

(I'm about halfway through . . . )
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:08 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:So, been served a curve ball.

My library just got a copy of "The End," Ian Kershaw's book on the destruction of the Third Reich.

Anyone who hasn't read Kershaw's biography of Hitler needs to rectify this immediately. Get the two volume set.

I've always wanted to read "The End," I've seen it a time or two at the bookstore but decided against it. However, I can now read it for free so I'm setting Hilberg and company aside to read this. It looks like a relatively quick read so I can finish and dive back into Hilberg.


Finishing up "The End."

Kershaw points out that it is rare for a nation state to continue fighting a war when it is obviously lost. In Germany's case when the attempted assassination of Hitler failed in July of 1944 it was inevitable that the war would go on until Germany was utterly defeated. Even when authority began to break down in the last weeks German generals and troops continued to fight when it became obvious that Germany was destined to lose.

The determination of Hitler to keep fighting (based upon his conviction that "1918 would never happen again") plus the cooperation of local Gauleiters and the ruling elites of Geobbels, Speer, Himmler, Borman and Doenitz meant that the battle went on long after it made sense to do so. The failure of Stauffenburg's assassination attempt also bound the German generals to Hitler in their desire to prove their loyalty (bolstered by the fanaticism of the lower officer corp that grew up in Nazi society).

Above all the terror of the Red Army kept soldiers fighting on the Eastern Front to protect their families and themselves long after it made sense to do so.

A good book, I recommend it.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:14 pm

Agree. It has always been strange to read where German nostalgists like Tark Murley would defend Hitler from criticism on the ground of defending Germany when the Führer, and his "team," caused such devastation and damage to Germany, as you describe.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:28 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Agree. It has always been strange to read where German nostalgists like Tark Murley would defend Hitler from criticism on the ground of defending Germany when the Führer, and his "team," caused such devastation and damage to Germany, as you describe.


Another point Kershaw makes is how the state turned against its own citizens in those last few weeks of the war. In some cases Nazi Party officials hung citizens as traitors hours before the US or British Army liberated a town or city.

To your point, I've never understood how deniers and others continue to idolize a man that left Germany in ruins and divided.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:22 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:The Trial of Adolf Hitler
The Beer Hall Putsch and the Rise of Nazi Germany by David King.

This one popped up in my Overdrive App with my local library. It's a pre-release for June 6th, I've put it on hold.


I've released the hold, I'll get the book when it releases and hope to have some topics to discuss.


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