General Books/Reading Discussion

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Dec 25, 2016 4:35 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Gerlach's book is up first, I want to compare it to Cesarani.

Excellent call.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Dec 25, 2016 7:49 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:sigh, Curilla, Gerlach's Kalkulierte Morde, Orth on the KLs, Bubnys and Dieckmann on Lithuania, Berger on AR, Schwindt on Majdanek . . .


Yeah, I know. I'm not one for memoirs so I'm generally disappointed on what you can find on Camps like Sobibor or Treblinka. The only English language book I know of that comprehensively covers the Action Reinhard Camps is Arad's book and that is 30 years old. Of course there is the White Paper but I'd like to see additional books on the subject. It disappoints me that foreign language books on the subject aren't translated and published on this side of the Atlantic.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Dec 25, 2016 8:07 pm

So true, which i why having Eric Hunt go on and on about Arad was kind of amusing. I recommend Bryant's book on the Einsatz Reinhard trials - Eyewitness to Genocide: The Operation Reinhard Death Camp Trials, 1955-1966; it's very good.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Dec 25, 2016 8:26 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:So true, which i why having Eric Hunt go on and on about Arad was kind of amusing. I recommend Bryant's book on the Einsatz Reinhard trials - Eyewitness to Genocide: The Operation Reinhard Death Camp Trials, 1955-1966; it's very good.


I looked at getting that one but there's no electronic version and the book is a bit pricey.
Started on Gerlach.
I really like it. I like the fact that right off the bat he's talked about other victims and is not just focusing on the Jews.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:46 pm

Initial thoughts on Gerlach:
It lacks Cesarani's detail but this is understandable.
Cesarani and Gerlach agree that much of the anti-Jewish legislation were not so much due to central coordination but as a response to and a need to control local initiatives and actions that spun out of control.
It's very good. More thoughts on it later.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:54 am

I came across a copy of Friedlander's "Origins of Nazi Genocide." That'll be after the new books.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:31 pm

Ohler's Blitzed is fun, a bit of a journalistic romp told in breathless and overexcited prose. Everything's wildly overstated but I suspect there's a kernel of ugly truth to what he's unearthed. Best portrait of Morell I've read: he's a repulsive, even hideous, siniister character - Ohler depicts him as an outsized, creepy dealer in symbiosis with his hooked "patient." Hitler portrayed in the post-July-20 plot phase as a typical junkie whose constant fixes reinforce his megalomania, rigid mindset, deluded over-confidence, and cold-blooded inhumanity. OTOH Ohler tells an additional story, one focusing on masses of Wehrmacht soldiers - and commanders - hopped up on Pervitin (a form of methamphetamine) and developing symptoms of speed-induced psychosis - from the speed rush of Blitzkrieg to a grim holding on, fortified by speed, by war's end. And then the quest for a miracle drug parallel to the so-called miracle weapons . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:51 pm

Shirer in Rise and Fall of the Third Reich described Morell as a vile character that everyone despised (among other things he smelled bad and, if memory serves, chewed with his mouth open).
Kershaw in his biography of Hitler treated him more sympathetically.
I wonder if there is a link between the use of speed among the soldiers and the cruelty they displayed.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:04 pm

I've reached the point in Gerlach's book where he discusses the specific conditions in 1941-1942 that led to the foundation of the Action Reinhard Camps and the beginnings of the mass exterminations of Polish Jews in the General Government.
I sense a topic of discussion but it'll have to wait until I'm done with the chapter.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:29 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Initial thoughts on Gerlach:
It lacks Cesarani's detail but this is understandable.
Cesarani and Gerlach agree that much of the anti-Jewish legislation were not so much due to central coordination but as a response to and a need to control local initiatives and actions that spun out of control.
It's very good. More thoughts on it later.


Just to correct an initial impression:

Gerlach is actually extremely detailed. The difference between Gerlach and Cesarani is that Cesarani is primarily chronological whereas Gerlach picks different aspects to examine, not necessarily in chronological order.

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Re: Goebbels / Longerich Biography / General Chat

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:Sara Berger's book


I've checked, there is no English translation of this book yet, at least on Amazon.


Shame. Roberto seems to think rather highly of it.

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Re: Goebbels / Longerich Biography / General Chat

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jan 01, 2017 9:05 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:Sara Berger's book


I've checked, there is no English translation of this book yet, at least on Amazon.


Shame. Roberto seems to think rather highly of it.


Welcome back.

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Re: Goebbels / Longerich Biography / General Chat

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Jan 01, 2017 9:37 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:Sara Berger's book


I've checked, there is no English translation of this book yet, at least on Amazon.


Shame. Roberto seems to think rather highly of it.


Welcome back.


why thank you! :lol:

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:58 pm

decided to "go back" and read A World at Arms: A Global History of World War II (Gerhard Weinberg); it's definitely livelier than his '30s book and, even if he repeats himself, he gets off some nice rapier thrusts - very intentionalist
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:21 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:decided to "go back" and read A World at Arms: A Global History of World War II (Gerhard Weinberg); it's definitely livelier than his '30s book and, even if he repeats himself, he gets off some nice rapier thrusts - very intentionalist


I read that a few years ago. To honest it wasn't my favorite, his writing style didn't do it for me.

It was very detailed, though.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:24 pm

I'm leery of his use of sources but worth reading for the detail and refresher course
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:35 pm

Gordon Corrigan wrote a very good book on WW II. My main issue with his is that he downplayed the role of the Wehrmacht in atrocities and some of his comments on the Japanese tilted towards racism....but, his writing style was excellent and he added amusing footnotes.
Max Hastings also wrote a very good book on WW II called Inferno. Some of his specialist works like Armageddon, the Battle for Germany 1944-1945, are very good.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:48 pm

I started on Dark Heart of Hitler's Europe, Nazi Rule in Poland. My initial impression is that I'm going to like it, the author is spending some time on Hans Frank and the type of German officials sent to help govern.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:56 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Ohler's Blitzed is fun, a bit of a journalistic romp told in breathless and overexcited prose. Everything's wildly overstated but I suspect there's a kernel of ugly truth to what he's unearthed. Best portrait of Morell I've read: he's a repulsive, even hideous, siniister character - Ohler depicts him as an outsized, creepy dealer in symbiosis with his hooked "patient." Hitler portrayed in the post-July-20 plot phase as a typical junkie whose constant fixes reinforce his megalomania, rigid mindset, deluded over-confidence, and cold-blooded inhumanity. OTOH Ohler tells an additional story, one focusing on masses of Wehrmacht soldiers - and commanders - hopped up on Pervitin (a form of methamphetamine) and developing symptoms of speed-induced psychosis - from the speed rush of Blitzkrieg to a grim holding on, fortified by speed, by war's end. And then the quest for a miracle drug parallel to the so-called miracle weapons . . .


My library will release Blitzed in March of 2017. I placed a hold on it.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:24 am

"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby NathanC » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:23 am

I finally got Ulf Schmidt's Nuremberg Doctor's trial book. More as I go along. Hopefully if time permits I can try to start the Denier Legalism/Trials thread Stat Mech suggested, if the book gives me some new insights.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:53 pm

Huh. Laurence Rees is coming out with a new book:
"The Holocaust, A New History."

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:10 pm

Anyone know the context for this or of an online location for the full document?

Image

(June 1943 ) The snippet is from Weinberg, A World at Arms, p 474, and the citation is Auszug aus einem Bericht von einer dreiwöchigen Fahrt in die Ukraine, 28 BA, Nadler, ZSg, 115/6, f 154.

(I'm drawing a blank . . . grrrr!)

Thanks - SM
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:34 pm

You might want to PM Nick Terry about that one.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:45 pm

I am sure I know it and am wracking my brain to no avail . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:25 pm

I just picked up a copy of Longerich's Himmler biography.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:17 pm

It is looooong. LOL. It is basically a build out of Himmler's life around the core of Holocaust. I got a shitload out of it.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:18 pm

I see it's over a thousand pages long.

I'll get to it when I plow through everything I've got.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:19 pm

So, it'll be around next Christmas.... :lol:

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:33 pm

LOL if I keep dawdling through Weinberg, I will be ready for a new book about then, too! Gawd, he is a slow read . . . plus Mazower is much better where they overlap.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby NathanC » Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:04 am

NathanC wrote:I finally got Ulf Schmidt's Nuremberg Doctor's trial book. More as I go along. Hopefully if time permits I can try to start the Denier Legalism/Trials thread Stat Mech suggested, if the book gives me some new insights.


I'm almost done with the Ulf Schmidt book. It covers the NMT doctors trial well. I'll share more of what I found in the future.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:04 pm

"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:26 pm

So, got into a bit of a jam. My library finally got a copy of Blitkrieg by Lloyd Clark while I was in the middle of Hitler: Ascent. I have the Blitzkrieg book for fourteen days. I dropped Ascent to read Blitzkrieg.
The book targets the French Campaign in May-June of 1940. It looks into the various myths surrounding the concept of "Blitzkrieg" and how it actually operated in practice. I'll share what I find when I am finished.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:32 pm

I am doing ANYTHING I can to avoid finishing Weinberg.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:42 pm

:lol:

I'm trapped in a maze of my own making. I have too many books in my library que along with the new books I own.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Feb 02, 2017 5:41 pm

on the way to me from Yad Vashem: Barbara Engelking, Such a Beautiful Sunny Day…Jews Seeking Refuge in the Polish Countryside, 1942-1945 - I saw Engelking on a panel 2 years ago presenting some of her research on this, she is co-author of the monumental study of the Warsaw ghetto with Leociak
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby NathanC » Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:37 pm

After not seeing it for almost 6 years, I was very lucky to find Antony Beevor's "Stalingrad". He really does a good job in his depiction of the German invasion of Russia, culminating in the battle of Stalingrad. Like Roberto once said, Beevor doesn't shy away from depicting the cruelty and crimes committed by Both sides, compared to the Denier loons who always Lionize their Nazi Heroes and don't hesitate to shriek at how awful the (Judeo Bolshevik) USSR was.

I noticed that Beevor used some references from Alan Clarke's Barbarossa. I have that book and read it once, but it didn't really stick. Maybe after finishing Stalingrad, I'll give that one another read.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:42 pm

I got a note from UPS telling me that whilst I've been traveling, the book on the SK manuscripts buried at Birkenau (Matters of Testimony: Interpeting the Scrolls of Auschwitz) that I'd ordered weeks ago has arrived.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:56 pm

A few notes from Weinberg on the war's end:
1) The Morgenthau plan, which was fairly quickly discarded, envisioned, according to Weinberg, that Germany would be reconstructed on the model of Denmark or the Netherlands, agricultural in that sense; also, the issue of Germany's future industrial capacity was tied up in reparations (taking industrial plant to compensate for the ravages of Germany's war and plunder by Germany of other countries).
2) Weinberg stresses a point I'd meant to note in relevant threads - by 1944-1945 food shortages and starvation in the Netherlands were critical; deniers have to be intentionally obtuse to fail understanding that the lack of food and widespread hunger in Europe resulted from the war, and Germany's conduct, not an Allied policy. Weinberg says that the Allies considered and rejected a hunger policy.
3) In Germany the food situation was acute in part because of the way the war ended and the division of the country into zones, with the western zones being food deficit areas and Germany's breadbasket as it were in the eastern, Soviet zone.
4) The Allies highlighted food transport as part of their postwar shipping priorities.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:32 pm

Adding two points to the above:
5) The food/humanitarian crisis in Europe, its resolution in part dependent on shipping, had to compete with the military crisis in Asia, as the war with Japan continued and siphoned off transport and resources that otherwise might have been used to address hunger and misery in Europe (according to Weinberg).
6) Without Weinberg's focusing on it, actually without his mentioning it, the Alperovitz Thesis is destroyed in the course of Weinberg's narrative.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927


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