General Books/Reading Discussion

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:59 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I'm plodding along on my foreign policy/diplomatic history reading . . . distracted by the election, my language course, and another course I'm taking (on Photoshop).


Been meaning to ask, what's the name of the book on foreign policy you are reading?

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:44 am

Gerhard Weinberg, Hitler's Foreign Policy: The Road to World War II, 1933-1939. It is just shy of 1,000 pp - vol II covers the war years. For me, slow reading.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:52 pm

Penguin books is doing a series of books on the history of Europe.
"The Pursuit of Glory: The Five Revolutions that Made Modern Europe: 1648-1815 (The Penguin History of Europe)"
"Christendom Destroyed: Europe 1517-1648 (The Penguin History of Europe)"
"Europe in the High Middle Ages (The Penguin History of Europe)"

The last two were released in 2004 and 2007. For someone who likes general history as well as the Holocaust they look interesting.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 25, 2016 3:00 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Gerhard Weinberg, Hitler's Foreign Policy: The Road to World War II, 1933-1939. It is just shy of 1,000 pp - vol II covers the war years. For me, slow reading.


I thought the author's name was familiar.
He wrote "A World at Arms : A Global History of World War II." I read it a couple of years ago, it was not an easy read.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 25, 2016 3:04 pm

Yeah, that's the one I referred to as vol II - it is good, full of detail but not fun and engaging. Also, it's been years since I read in depth on the topics so that slows me down. E.g., looking up and reading documents that he cites, and so on. And then there's the election to distract me . . . :)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 25, 2016 3:19 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Yeah, that's the one I referred to as vol II - it is good, full of detail but not fun and engaging. Also, it's been years since I read in depth on the topics so that slows me down. E.g., looking up and reading documents that he cites, and so on. And then there's the election to distract me . . . :)


There are a lot of really good books on WW II. Anthony Beevor, Gordon Corrigan, Richard Evans, Max Hastings, they all wrote good books on the war I'd recommend to anyone. A World at Arms : A Global History of World War II has the "Longerich Syndrome," well researched but a dull read.
I'm not as distracted by the election, I'm a lifelong Democrat. I actually voted for Dukakis.
I'm more distracted by football and Halloween stuff. My wife seems hell bent on not giving me extra time at home, she's got the entire week planned out.
I'm also trying to finish all the reading I have before Cesarani's book gets here.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 25, 2016 3:25 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Yeah, that's the one I referred to as vol II - it is good, full of detail but not fun and engaging. Also, it's been years since I read in depth on the topics so that slows me down. E.g., looking up and reading documents that he cites, and so on. And then there's the election to distract me . . . :)


There are a lot of really good books on WW II. Anthony Beevor, Gordon Corrigan, Richard Evans, Max Hastings, they all wrote good books on the war I'd recommend to anyone. A World at Arms : A Global History of World War II has the "Longerich Syndrome," well researched but a dull read.
I'm not as distracted by the election, I'm a lifelong Democrat. I actually voted for Dukakis.

I lived in Massachusetts at the time and could not figure out how the hell Dukakis got the nomination! The Naked Gun 2-1/2 scene in the blues bar showing Dukakis among the great disasters in history was classic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fpO7vN2-vY

I saw the flick at the Fresh Pond cinema and the crowd laughter must have gone on for five minutes.

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I'm more distracted by football and Halloween stuff.

I might be less distracted by the election if I were reading Overy or a Hitler biography! LOL

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I'm also trying to finish all the reading I have before Cesarani's book gets here.

Or Cesarani again :)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 25, 2016 3:33 pm

I forgot about the Naked Gun scene!!!!!

I'm hyped for Cesarani. I have Veteran's Day off, I'll spend a large portion of the day reading.

Speaking of Overy, I'm looking at getting the book "The Bombing War: Europe 1939–1945."

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 25, 2016 3:48 pm

I think that's really a good book. I know that Jeff_36 (yoo-hoo Jeff!) disagrees . . . but I am also pretty sure he's not read it! LOL

I guess that thread petered out. David and Mary must have hated it, as it met about zero of their preconceptions.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 25, 2016 3:56 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I think that's really a good book. I know that Jeff_36 (yoo-hoo Jeff!) disagrees . . . but I am also pretty sure he's not read it! LOL


:lol:

I agree there were good reasons behind the bombing campaign but blasting apart German cities for the sake of doing it crossed a line.

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I guess that thread petered out. David and Mary must have hated it, as it met about zero of their preconceptions.


Yeah, they think we all just agree with each other because we are "believers."

Another one by Overy:
"Russia's War: Blood upon the Snow." I think I need about two weeks off just to catch up on my reading. It's another book to add to the pile.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:48 pm

Goldstein & Goldstein, The Holocaust in Croatia, arrived today
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:55 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:In a nutshell, situation nervous-making - but as Germany rearmed and made power plays, Hitler pursuing rapprochement to the point of restraining Forster and Greiser from going too far in Danzig to focus on German moves against Austria and Czechoslovakia, keeping Poland neutral on these moves - even encouraging Polish expectations of favorable border revisionism against Czechoslovakia - Poland freaking out about German strength and French/British weakness but Beck naive about Poland's precariousness - with every German concession or act of moderation to be scrapped when the time came (I am up to 1938, lots more to be said later).

Weinberg takes this further leading up to the Czechoslovakia crisis in summer 1938. He calls Poland Germany's "eastern shield" for the planned move against Czechoslovakia and he sees the Czechs, more than succumbing to German outreach, actively promoting the disappearance of Czechoslovakia. For one thing, they coveted land from the Tésin region. Poland doubted France, and in turn France doubted their ally Poland. The Poles also would not allow the Soviets to cross Poland to defend Czechoslovakia. When Hitler made his speech on 12 September, he took care to lavish praise on the policy of the Poles and to celebrate Pilsudski's wisdom. Yet the Poles, despite some feelers they extended, accepted basically nothing from Germany - no border guarantee, no formal agreements over any outstanding issues, etc. Göring made vague positive statements to the Poles. Hitler, for his own purposes (that is, to focus on Czechoslovakia) de-escalated tensions temporarily in Danzig, however. This was enough to continue what Weinberg calls the "informal collaboration" of Poland with Germany through summer 1938.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:48 pm

I found a copy of Christopher Brownings' "Origins of the Final Solution" on-line. I've actually never read it, it's really good so far.
I'm balancing three books right now. I'm reading Beevor's "The Second World War," the book on the Gestapo and "Origins." Cesarani didn't come in like it should, looks like the end of the week. My Kindle version got messed up somehow and Amazon is efforting.

Yes, I also posted this in a desperate attempt to get back to normal.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 3:39 pm

Finally got Cesarani in!!!!!
Started reading a little last night, will continue during lunch time.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:25 pm

Cool. Let us know your thoughts!
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:40 pm

I'm abandoning the book on the Gestapo for the time being to concentrate on Cesarani. I'll pick it back up again when I'm done, I may just start over.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:22 pm

Cesarani's book is excellent. He spends a great deal of time describing how Jews fared in Germany from the point where Hitler took power. Per Cesarani, German Jews took a "wait and see" attitude at the beginning, thinking things would blow over or Hitler would fall from power. Per Cesarani, there was no real coordinated "Jewish policy" from 1933-1935, only independent actions taken by fanatics. Even the attempted boycott in April of 1933 turned into a fiasco. The law actually punished SA/SS members who took matters into their own hands.

Things went down hill drastically in 1935, culminating in Kristallnacht in November of 1938. Cesarani makes the point that even before November things went down steadily throughout the year.

Cesarani agrees with the prevailing opinion that there was no real defined "Jewish Policy," even after the mass killings started in 1941. He also attaches less importance to Wansee, which again is the prevailing opinion.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:11 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Michael Bryant, Eyewitness to Genocide: The Operation Reinhard Death Camp Trials, 1955-1966 (expensive and hard to find - library? really excellent)


Amazon now has a paperback version priced at 28.00. No electronic copy, though.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:24 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Michael Bryant, Eyewitness to Genocide: The Operation Reinhard Death Camp Trials, 1955-1966 (expensive and hard to find - library? really excellent)


Amazon now has a paperback version priced at 28.00. No electronic copy, though.


I think I may have a copy of that in the Ohio file cabnit, I could check and get you a PDF of you like.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
- James Mace

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:27 am

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Michael Bryant, Eyewitness to Genocide: The Operation Reinhard Death Camp Trials, 1955-1966 (expensive and hard to find - library? really excellent)


Amazon now has a paperback version priced at 28.00. No electronic copy, though.


I think I may have a copy of that in the Ohio file cabnit, I could check and get you a PDF of you like.



Yeah, that would be great, thanks.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:29 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Michael Bryant, Eyewitness to Genocide: The Operation Reinhard Death Camp Trials, 1955-1966 (expensive and hard to find - library? really excellent)


Amazon now has a paperback version priced at 28.00. No electronic copy, though.


I think I may have a copy of that in the Ohio file cabnit, I could check and get you a PDF of you like.



Yeah, that would be great, thanks.


I think I go down there to visit on the 23rd, and if I see it I'll try and make a copy.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
- James Mace

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:34 am

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Michael Bryant, Eyewitness to Genocide: The Operation Reinhard Death Camp Trials, 1955-1966 (expensive and hard to find - library? really excellent)


Amazon now has a paperback version priced at 28.00. No electronic copy, though.


I think I may have a copy of that in the Ohio file cabnit, I could check and get you a PDF of you like.



Yeah, that would be great, thanks.


I think I go down there to visit on the 23rd, and if I see it I'll try and make a copy.


Just when you get a chance, thanks again.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby NathanC » Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:44 am

I've just started Reading Gotz Aly's Why the Germans?Why The Jews?:envy, race hatred, and the prehistory of the Holocaust. It's a very interesting read. Aly's research is based on 19th century literature: it's amazing how well preserved it is and how he can access it.

Aly brings up something interesting: the root cause of German Antisemitism was envy because of how Traditional Germans reacted to the Collapse of the Holy Roman Empire compared to how the Jewish minority reacted. The Germans were afraid of change and clung to the traditional feudal system, while Jews embraced emancipation and made the most of the change and bettered themselves. Germans were afraid and resisted education, while even the very religious Jews took the opportunity to send their Children to school and study. It's quite sad really: the reverse is happening today. The Ultra Religious are regressing and resisting education, and are a large problem in both Israel and the USA. In the recent election for example, most of Trump's Jewish voters were from the Ultra orthodox community. Some of their newspapers didn't even want to show Hillary Clinton's picture.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby NathanC » Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:51 am

About this subject, there's something that I've noticed. History books about the Holocaust/WWII written by German historians seem to read a lot more colorful when compared to those written by Non Germans. I'm not sure if it's because of the original German language or how it was translated. As of now, I've read Five Non German Authors - Browning, Evans, Friedlander, Mazower and some of Antony Beevor's work and Five German Authors - Nietzel/Welzer, Stagneth, Waschmann and now Gotz Aly. All of them do great work, but the ones in the former category feels "academic" or "dry". In comparison, the latter are all scholarly, but their thoughts are expressed a lot better. Eichmann Before Jerusalem by Stagneth, for example, feels as if the author is right there reading it to you.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:28 pm

NathanC wrote:I've just started Reading Gotz Aly's Why the Germans?Why The Jews?:envy, race hatred, and the prehistory of the Holocaust. It's a very interesting read. . . .

thanks for this, that's one of the books that keeps getting shuffled to the bottom of my "to read" stack . . . I think I will move it up in the pile!
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:30 pm

NathanC wrote:About this subject, there's something that I've noticed. History books about the Holocaust/WWII written by German historians seem to read a lot more colorful when compared to those written by Non Germans. I'm not sure if it's because of the original German language or how it was translated. As of now, I've read Five Non German Authors - Browning, Evans, Friedlander, Mazower and some of Antony Beevor's work and Five German Authors - Nietzel/Welzer, Stagneth, Waschmann and now Gotz Aly. All of them do great work, but the ones in the former category feels "academic" or "dry". In comparison, the latter are all scholarly, but their thoughts are expressed a lot better. Eichmann Before Jerusalem by Stagneth, for example, feels as if the author is right there reading it to you.

Of course, there's Longerich to balance things out!
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:21 pm

And Gerhard Weinberg.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:28 pm

NathanC wrote:About this subject, there's something that I've noticed. History books about the Holocaust/WWII written by German historians seem to read a lot more colorful when compared to those written by Non Germans. I'm not sure if it's because of the original German language or how it was translated. As of now, I've read Five Non German Authors - Browning, Evans, Friedlander, Mazower and some of Antony Beevor's work and Five German Authors - Nietzel/Welzer, Stagneth, Waschmann and now Gotz Aly. All of them do great work, but the ones in the former category feels "academic" or "dry". In comparison, the latter are all scholarly, but their thoughts are expressed a lot better. Eichmann Before Jerusalem by Stagneth, for example, feels as if the author is right there reading it to you.


I respectfully disagree. I like all of the authors you've mentioned, Browning, Evans, Friedlander, Beevor, Mazowar.

I realize this is an opinion and others will agree or disagree.

I will look at the other authors you mentioned, I'm building another list of things I want to read.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby NathanC » Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:41 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
NathanC wrote:About this subject, there's something that I've noticed. History books about the Holocaust/WWII written by German historians seem to read a lot more colorful when compared to those written by Non Germans. I'm not sure if it's because of the original German language or how it was translated. As of now, I've read Five Non German Authors - Browning, Evans, Friedlander, Mazower and some of Antony Beevor's work and Five German Authors - Nietzel/Welzer, Stagneth, Waschmann and now Gotz Aly. All of them do great work, but the ones in the former category feels "academic" or "dry". In comparison, the latter are all scholarly, but their thoughts are expressed a lot better. Eichmann Before Jerusalem by Stagneth, for example, feels as if the author is right there reading it to you.


I respectfully disagree. I like all of the authors you've mentioned, Browning, Evans, Friedlander, Beevor, Mazowar.

I realize this is an opinion and others will agree or disagree.

I will look at the other authors you mentioned, I'm building another list of things I want to read.


Don't get the wrong idea: I also like Browning, Evans, Friedlander et al. One of the things that amazes me about Friedlander is how "neutral" his books are. He is a Holocaust Survivor and would have every reason to "hate" Germans, and yet both of his books simply "tell it like it is" - he just quotes sources and adds insightful commentary and analysis. For comparison, I've read books written by historians talking about American Colonialism and you can really hear the vitriol between the lines. That's not in Friedlander's work.

What I meant was the writing or the "prose" and not the content feels different. I noticed that Books written by German historians or writers "feel" different compared to those by non-Germans.

But like you said, it's subjective.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:49 pm

I agree with you about Friedlander. I'm looking into getting some of his other books.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:36 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Cesarani's book is excellent. He spends a great deal of time describing how Jews fared in Germany from the point where Hitler took power. Per Cesarani, German Jews took a "wait and see" attitude at the beginning, thinking things would blow over or Hitler would fall from power. Per Cesarani, there was no real coordinated "Jewish policy" from 1933-1935, only independent actions taken by fanatics. Even the attempted boycott in April of 1933 turned into a fiasco. The law actually punished SA/SS members who took matters into their own hands.

Things went down hill drastically in 1935, culminating in Kristallnacht in November of 1938. Cesarani makes the point that even before November things went down steadily throughout the year.

Cesarani agrees with the prevailing opinion that there was no real defined "Jewish Policy," even after the mass killings started in 1941. He also attaches less importance to Wansee, which again is the prevailing opinion.


I've read through to the beginnings of Chelmno and Belzec. More to come as I read more.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby nickterry » Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:01 pm

NathanC wrote:About this subject, there's something that I've noticed. History books about the Holocaust/WWII written by German historians seem to read a lot more colorful when compared to those written by Non Germans. I'm not sure if it's because of the original German language or how it was translated. As of now, I've read Five Non German Authors - Browning, Evans, Friedlander, Mazower and some of Antony Beevor's work and Five German Authors - Nietzel/Welzer, Stagneth, Waschmann and now Gotz Aly. All of them do great work, but the ones in the former category feels "academic" or "dry". In comparison, the latter are all scholarly, but their thoughts are expressed a lot better. Eichmann Before Jerusalem by Stagneth, for example, feels as if the author is right there reading it to you.


Bit of a limited sample size, and I suspect you've read overviews/general accounts by Evans and Mazower rather than their specialist work. Mazower's Inside Hitler's Greece is a fantastic book, precisely because its main emphasis is Greek history rather than German history, although he does the German perspective very well, too. Evans' Rituals of Retribution is likewise a classic. His Third Reich trilogy isn't a patch on that book.

Meanwhile, there are literally hundreds of unexciting but thorough German monographs, most of which don't get translated, but some that do (eg Diemut Majer's tombstone on 'non-Germans' in Nazi law) aren't the most exciting of reads. You've been lucky to encounter some of the very best German writing on the subject; Stangneth's book in particular is outstanding, while Aly almost always writes elegantly and brilliantly. I doubt Aly's study of 1968 and post-68ers in West Germany, Unser Kampf, will be translated any time soon, and I know German historians who cannot stand the book, but I thought it was freaking hilarious.

Another gem that I wish were translated into English is Anita Kugler's Scherwitz, written about a decade ago, about an SS officer who served in Riga and oversaw the Lenta subcamp of KL Kaiserwald, who then claimed to be Jewish - it is a truly surreal study of someone who was either a liar, an impostor or had a severe identity crisis.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:43 pm

I do have an issue with Cesarani in this respect, he stated that the engine used at Sobibor was diesel.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby NathanC » Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:35 pm

Even Waschmann got it right and said "gasoline" or Petrol IIRC

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:40 pm

Nigel Ferguson in "War of the Worlds" said the same thing...Diesel engines...but I gave him a pass because his book was not on the Holocaust.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:21 pm

IMO the value of Cesarani's book is its interpretive frame and explanation of the main currents of Jewish policy and the extermination of Jews, not original research on mass murder methods; there are a few such issues IIRC but given the nature of the work they didn't much bother me - easily supplemented/corrected
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:33 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:IMO the value of Cesarani's book is its interpretive frame and explanation of the main currents of Jewish policy and the extermination of Jews, not original research on mass murder methods; there are a few such issues IIRC but given the nature of the work they didn't much bother me - easily supplemented/corrected


It's very good, especially in regard to what happened in the ghettos.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Nov 27, 2016 9:27 pm

From Volker Ullrich, Hitler: Ascent, 1889-1939: In August 1920 a law student in Munich, Heinrich Heim, met with Hitler, after which he wrote to a friend detailing his impressions, including this on Hitler's views about the Jewish question:
One has to root out the bacterium in order to restore the body's natural defences. As long as the Jew remains active it will not be possible to break down the masses into rational individuals . . . and make them immune to his influence. He [Hitler] utterly rules out a Germanification of Jews in a larger or smaller sense. As long as Jews remain with their pernicious effects, Germany cannot convalesce. When it comes to the existence or non-existence of a people, one cannot draw a line at the lives of blinkered ethnic comrades and even less so at the live of a hostile, dangerous, foreign tribe.

Ullrich also quotes Hitler from this period, recorded in a letter from Captain Mayr, Hitler's intelligence unit chief, to Wolfgang Kapp, leader of the 1920 putsch, saying that
The German people can only be free and healthy if it is liberated from Jewish bandits. . . . [R]esolution of the Jewish question [is] the main issue for National Socialists.

(p 104) According to Ullrich, it was during this period that Hitler fixed on his goal of "the removal of Jews from our people," as Hitler expressed his vision in his August 1920 speech, "Why are we anti-Semites?" (p 103)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:30 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:From Volker Ullrich, Hitler: Ascent, 1889-1939: In August 1920 a law student in Munich, Heinrich Heim, met with Hitler, after which he wrote to a friend detailing his impressions, including this on Hitler's views about the Jewish question:
One has to root out the bacterium in order to restore the body's natural defences. As long as the Jew remains active it will not be possible to break down the masses into rational individuals . . . and make them immune to his influence. He [Hitler] utterly rules out a Germanification of Jews in a larger or smaller sense. As long as Jews remain with their pernicious effects, Germany cannot convalesce. When it comes to the existence or non-existence of a people, one cannot draw a line at the lives of blinkered ethnic comrades and even less so at the live of a hostile, dangerous, foreign tribe.

Ullrich also quotes Hitler from this period, recorded in a letter from Captain Mayr, Hitler's intelligence unit chief, to Wolfgang Kapp, leader of the 1920 putsch, saying that
The German people can only be free and healthy if it is liberated from Jewish bandits. . . . [R]esolution of the Jewish question [is] the main issue for National Socialists.

(p 104) According to Ullrich, it was during this period that Hitler fixed on his goal of "the removal of Jews from our people," as Hitler expressed his vision in his August 1920 speech, "Why are we anti-Semites?" (p 103)


I looked up the author, he wrote this:

The Nervous Superpower: the rise and fall of the German Empire from 1871 to 1918. S. Fischer, Frankfurt 1997, ISBN 3-10-086001-2[2]

Looks interesting.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:15 am

I have no idea if I've read about this before: Ullrich describes how during the night of the Beer Hall Putsch, Nazi storm troopers detained presumed enemies and terrorized leftists, pro-Weimar individuals, and Jews in Munich.

British consul general Robert Clive reported that among the putschists "orders were immediately given the same night to round up the Jews." In the arrest actions, Social Democratic politicians, like Erhard Auer, and prominent Jews like Ludwig Wasserman, chair of the Central Association, were detained. Jewish hostages were seized. Before the march on 9 November, the Bund Overland attacked the Bogenhausen district to detain wealthy Jews who lived there. (p 153)

One of the putsch conspirators, Baron von der Pfordten, a Nazi lawyer who was shot dead when the march erupted in violence, was found to have a draft constitution for the planned national dictatorship in his coat pocket. Ullrich quotes from this document: "all risks to security and useless consumers of food" were to be brought to "collection camps." (p 154) Ullrich describes this as "an outline for a system of concentration camps." (p 164) The death sentence was to be decreed for people who refused transport to the camps as well as for "members of the Jewish people" who'd profited from the war or who resisted confiscation of their assets. (p 154)
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927


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