General Books/Reading Discussion

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Jeffk 1970
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:03 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Utopia in Power is good, if a bit old.

Where's Jeff_36? {!#%@} Canadians burned the White House down. He needs to answer for this shite.


LOL, I was just getting to post that:

According to the sources, Trudeau pressed Trump on how he could justify the tariffs as a "national security" issue. In response, Trump quipped to Trudeau, "Didn't you guys burn down the White House?" referring to the War of 1812.


:rotfl:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/06/06/politics/war-of-1812-donald-trump-justin-trudeau-tariff/index.html


https://youtu.be/bOR38552MJA
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:01 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Utopia in Power is good, if a bit old.

Where's Jeff_36? {!#%@} Canadians burned the White House down. He needs to answer for this shite.


LOL, I was just getting to post that:

According to the sources, Trudeau pressed Trump on how he could justify the tariffs as a "national security" issue. In response, Trump quipped to Trudeau, "Didn't you guys burn down the White House?" referring to the War of 1812.


:rotfl:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/06/06/politics/war-of-1812-donald-trump-justin-trudeau-tariff/index.html


https://youtu.be/bOR38552MJA


Shocking trump even knows what the war of 1812 was.
« Yes, that may surprise some people, including my colleagues. But have no illusions. I never compelled anybody to work for me, just as we didn't compel the German people. They themselves gave us the job to do. Why did you work with me? Now, you'll have your little throat cut...but the earth will shake when we leave the scene... »
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:05 am

Well...........Trumpsters also know USA has had a long strong relationship with the government of Germany AS EVIDENCED BY: ".............this is the anniversary of the D-Day Invasion............"

You can't make this stuff up.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:27 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Utopia in Power is good, if a bit old.

Where's Jeff_36? {!#%@} Canadians burned the White House down. He needs to answer for this shite.


I was busy capturing Detroit. I have returned! And I'm bringing the ghost of Issac Brock to the G7! Trump wont know what hit him! Muahahahahahaha!

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:45 am

LOL let our people go, dammit!!! You lot are probably behind the Bowling Green Massacre, too. Right? Canada has been taking advantage of us for far too long. #MAGA
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:43 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Utopia in Power is good, if a bit old.

Where's Jeff_36? {!#%@} Canadians burned the White House down. He needs to answer for this shite.


I was busy capturing Detroit. I have returned! And I'm bringing the ghost of Issac Brock to the G7! Trump wont know what hit him! Muahahahahahaha!



Free Frederick Douglass, Jeff, I mean it!!!!
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:38 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:LOL let our people go, dammit!!! You lot are probably behind the Bowling Green Massacre, too. Right? Canada has been taking advantage of us for far too long. #MAGA


I am very spoiled and very difficult to deal with. Dont forget that. #KeepAmericaGreat

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:13 pm

mark_gr wrote:What's a good book on Auschwitz

For starters Laurence Rees' "Auschwitz, A New History" gives a good general history.

What sort of focus do you want to look at?
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:53 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
mark_gr wrote:What's a good book on Auschwitz

For starters Laurence Rees' "Auschwitz, A New History" gives a good general history.

What sort of focus do you want to look at?


Assuming he's joining because this is a "Holocaust denial" board. Anatomy of Auschwitz, The case for Auschwitz, Auschwitz 1270 to present, or Technique and operation is where they would want to start.
« Yes, that may surprise some people, including my colleagues. But have no illusions. I never compelled anybody to work for me, just as we didn't compel the German people. They themselves gave us the job to do. Why did you work with me? Now, you'll have your little throat cut...but the earth will shake when we leave the scene... »
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:17 am

mark_gr wrote:What's a good book on Auschwitz

I missed this, sorry mark_gr. Non-specialist, non-technical books that I found valuable include Deborah Dwork & Robert Jan Pelt, Auschwitz, 1270 to the Present; Hermann Langbein, Men in Auschwitz; Robert Jan Pelt, The Case for Auschwitz (this book is based on Pelt's work on the Irving trial); Sybille Steinbacher, Auschwitz: A History (brief narrative history of the camp); and Yisrael Gutman & Michael Berenbaum, Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp.

The 5-volume museum history of the camp is, IMO, indispensable, as is Pressac, Auschwitz: The Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers for evidence for gassing (here).

On daily life in the camp I liked Primo Levi, Survival in Auschwitz and The Drowned and the Saved; for the Sonderkommando, Gideon Greif, We Wept Without Tears.

From Holocaust Controversies here's an "Index of Published Evidence on Mass Extermination in Auschwitz and Auschwitz-Birkenau."

What to read depends, of course, on what you're most interested in.

Edit: it appears a number of us just saw the same post!
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:19 am

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
mark_gr wrote:What's a good book on Auschwitz

For starters Laurence Rees' "Auschwitz, A New History" gives a good general history.

What sort of focus do you want to look at?


Assuming he's joining because this is a "Holocaust denial" board. Anatomy of Auschwitz, The case for Auschwitz, Auschwitz 1270 to present, or Technique and operation is where they would want to start.


I think Rees is a better place to start depending on what you want to know.

I just got “Anatomy” today.
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:19 am

I found Rees pretty darned light . . . just sayin'.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:22 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
mark_gr wrote:What's a good book on Auschwitz

ISybille Steinbacher, Auschwitz: A History


Forgot about this one, it’s not bad but I liked Rees a little better.
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:26 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I found Rees pretty darned light . . . just sayin'.


Sorry, posted before I saw this comment.
I liked it better than Steinbacher. I think by the time I got to her book I wanted something deeper.

I think it depends on what you want. I think D-H and your books are good suggestions but it might be a bit much for someone who is just getting into it. Pressac makes more sense once you get the basics, same with Van Pelt.
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:32 am

Yeah, Steinbacher is more like an essay. A quick read for the basic narrative and key points. Thing is, I don't know what mark_gr has read and/or knows and what mark_gr is after, so who knows what the best recommendations are!?!?! LOL I guess if it was a "first book" on the camp, and just one title, I'd recommend Dwork & Pelt's book. It's readable, has good detail, and goes into a fair amount of depth.

Btw, welcome to mark_gr . . .
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:46 am

I liked Van Pelt and Dwork’s book as well. It got deep into the history of the town itself.
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:37 am

Honestly Rees book kinda really only felt like his 6 hour film. Didn't have a lot of value - content wise - for what we discuss with deniers.
« Yes, that may surprise some people, including my colleagues. But have no illusions. I never compelled anybody to work for me, just as we didn't compel the German people. They themselves gave us the job to do. Why did you work with me? Now, you'll have your little throat cut...but the earth will shake when we leave the scene... »
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:29 pm

I’m not sure what mark wants to read about it, that’s why I suggested Rees. Steinbacher is OK for a general read but I didn’t think it worthwhile.

If mark is more interested in the Holocaust denial part then Van Pelt’s court report or The Case for Auschwitz is good for that, along with Pressac.
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:46 pm

Started “Anatomy” last night. I should’ve bought it years ago.

I remember I saw it once at 1/2 Price Books. I don’t know why I didn’t get it but I regret it now.
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:46 pm

Putting aside the history on the USSR for Anatomy.
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:35 pm

If I can I will track down the other forensic report the Poles completed in the 1940’s.
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:26 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
mark_gr wrote:What's a good book on Auschwitz

For starters Laurence Rees' "Auschwitz, A New History" gives a good general history.

What sort of focus do you want to look at?


Assuming he's joining because this is a "Holocaust denial" board. Anatomy of Auschwitz, The case for Auschwitz, Auschwitz 1270 to present, or Technique and operation is where they would want to start.


I think Rees is a better place to start depending on what you want to know.

I just got “Anatomy” today.


I can say from experience that Rees is the best possible starting point. I made the error of starting off with RJVP. Whoops.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:34 pm

You're Canadian though, a mortal enemy of truth, justice and the American way :)
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:38 pm

I agree, I read Pressac before I was ready for it. Just my opinion but Rees gives a good overall view of the subject, not just Auschwitz.

Once you get the bird's eye view it helps to focus on the subject. If I was Mark I wouldn't start with Pressac or Pelt.

I didn't think Steinbacher was bad but Stat Mech liked it better than I did.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:45 pm

I liked Steinbacher for pulling back, highlighting patterns, themes, key points after immersion in details. Not a good one to start with. Has mark_gr done any reading on the camp, do we know?

An aside, my father was a college professor. He taught Faulkner, among other things. In high school I asked which of Faulkner's novels to read. He told me I wasn't ready. In college I asked - he told me I wasn't ready yet. When I graduated, I asked again - and again was told I wasn't ready. I asked during grad school - not ready. Same deal when I left grad school. Finally in my early 30s I said, "{!#%@} all, I am going to read this bastard." I read The Sound and the Fury, Light in August, Absalom Absalom and As I Lay Dying before telling my father. I really couldn't quite come to grips with how great these books are. I asked why he'd always told me to wait before reading them. He repeated that I hadn't been ready. I asked, "How would you know when I was ready?" He said, "When you picked up the books and read them despite what I told you." LOL Over a year or so I read every book and short story Faulkner wrote. That was a very, very satisfying year. I was ready!

Moral of the story: there's a part of me that says just jump the hell in the good stuff.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:50 pm

It's hard to narrow down suggestions.
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:00 pm

The first book I read on Auschwitz was Levy's Survival in Auschwitz (If This Is a Man). Then IIRC The Drowned and the Saved. And then Langbein, Men in Auschwitz. None of these titles figures much in HD debate; all three were IMO outstanding. As you wrote, a lot depends on what one is after . . .
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:01 pm

The one thing I hope we can agree on is an invasion of Canada. Soon.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:36 am

Invasion of Canada? I'm close to the border anything happens I'll record.

Also started revisiting - as a break from the Kirov Murder - the An Gorta Mór of 1845-1849 (some falsely extend it to 50-52) and the faithful followers of John Mitchel.
« Yes, that may surprise some people, including my colleagues. But have no illusions. I never compelled anybody to work for me, just as we didn't compel the German people. They themselves gave us the job to do. Why did you work with me? Now, you'll have your little throat cut...but the earth will shake when we leave the scene... »
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:42 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Started “Anatomy” last night. I should’ve bought it years ago.

I remember I saw it once at 1/2 Price Books. I don’t know why I didn’t get it but I regret it now.


Been reading this as I get the time.

I'm going to Arkansas this weekend to visit my brother and mother, I'm hoping to finish it on the road or in the hotel.

It is very good but one surprising thing is that the chapters dealing with the hospital and women in the camp is rather lightly sourced.
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:59 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Started “Anatomy” last night. I should’ve bought it years ago.

I remember I saw it once at 1/2 Price Books. I don’t know why I didn’t get it but I regret it now.


Been reading this as I get the time.

I'm going to Arkansas this weekend to visit my brother and mother, I'm hoping to finish it on the road or in the hotel.

It is very good but one surprising thing is that the chapters dealing with the hospital and women in the camp is rather lightly sourced.


Finished this today.

Excellent. I don’t think I’d start with it but once you have the basics this is a very important book.
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:55 am

mark_gr decided to do something else with his time, eh? probably a wise call, unless that something else is to "learn" from those at Rodoh
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Darren Wilshak » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:17 am

We can't stop there, its bat country...

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:47 pm

now working my way through Burrin's book on France during the war; I am guessing that Balsamo has read this one . . .
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:50 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:We can't stop there, its bat country...

Hell no . . .

Image
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:58 pm

I started reading “The Liberators” by Michael Hirsh last night. It’s about the American soldiers who liberated the concentration camps. It actually starts out with the experience of two Jewish soldiers that the Germans captured during the Battle of the Bulge.
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Darren Wilshak » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:10 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Darren Wilshak wrote:We can't stop there, its bat country...

Hell no . . .

Image



Now Statistical von Tomania, did you actually see this sign on your travels? Its so deeply wonderful.

Image

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:03 pm

I suggested some books to my library a couple of weeks ago to add to their digital library:
The Death of Democracy: Hitler’s Rise to Power and the Downfall of the Weimar Republic (never read this one but it looked interesting)
Ordinary Men
Savage Continent

They obliged me and then checked all of them out to me at the same time.

So, put aside “The Liberators” in favor of “Death of Democracy.” I decided to re-read both “Ordinary Men” and “Savage Continent.”

Initial impressions of “Death of Democracy:”

I like it a lot. It started slow but picked up. If I have some time I will share some things.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:52 pm

Isn't that written by Hett, the guy who wrote a book on the Reichstag fire?
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Jeffk 1970
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:58 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Isn't that written by Hett, the guy who wrote a book on the Reichstag fire?


Yeah, it is. I haven’t read that one.
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
Adolf Hitler
Final Will and Testament


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