General Books/Reading Discussion

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Denying-History
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:56 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:For anyone interested, I got a print copy of Pressacs Technique and operation.

Image


Nice. I've never seen a print copy anywhere.
The pages are super thin, lol I feel as if I may brake them.
« Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood. »
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:04 pm

This Adler book on Theresienstadt is the cat's meow. There are some points in it which could certainly be improved, we know more today than Adler did in '60. But it's really good.

Still on vacation, where my wife spent roughly the equivalent of the selling price of an Aston Martin DB-10 on summer clothes. Which led to an agreement that I could drop some money on something I'd like, too. Thus, order placed for:

Nazi Collaborators on Trial during the Cold War: Viktors Arājs and the Latvian Auxiliary Security Police (The Holocaust and its Contexts)
Plavnieks, Richards

Sasha Pechersky: Holocaust Hero, Sobibor Resistance Leader, and Hostage of History (Memory and Narrative)
Leydesdorff, Selma

The Vél d'Hiv Raid: The French Police at the Service of the Gestapo
Rajsfus, Maurice

Site of Deportation, Site of Memory: The Amsterdam Hollandsche Schouwburg and the Holocaust
Duindam, David

Shelter from the Holocaust: Rethinking Jewish Survival in the Soviet Union
Grossmann, Atina

(none of these have been published yet, all are for December delivery, one is written by a former classmate of mine)
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:06 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:For anyone interested, I got a print copy of Pressacs Technique and operation.

Image


Nice. I've never seen a print copy anywhere.
The pages are super thin, lol I feel as if I may brake them.



I don't know how many editions were printed but you've got a rare find.
Don't read it while eating pizza or spaghetti.
:)

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:34 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Less than a week away from "The Trial of Adolf Hitler." I should get it around the 6th.


Downloaded this morning. Will give my impressions and maybe open a new thread.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:20 am

arrived to greet me on my return from South Carolina:

Heniek Fogel, A Hidden Diary from the Łódź Ghetto 1942-1944
Kiril Feferman, The Holocaust in the Crimea and North Caucasus
Aron Shneyer, Pariahs Among Pariahs: Soviet-Jewish POWs in German Captivity 1941-1945

I suddenly have way too much to read.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:48 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:arrived to greet me on my return from South Carolina:


Kiril Feferman, The Holocaust in the Crimea and North Caucasus


Hhhhhhmmm, that looks interesting.



I suddenly have way too much to read.


I know how you feel.........

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:46 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Another one I've got on hold:
The Armenian Genocide
A Complete History
by Raymond Kevorkian

Right now I'm behind so I'm putting things on hold. I've got a massive reading project I'm working my way through that I'm hoping to discuss once I'm done.



Got this today. Started reading.

For some reason Revolutionary Yiddishland isn't available right now, I couldn't download it.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:50 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:So much of what we talk about deals with the history of Jews in Europe. I'm sadly deficient in this area and want to shore it up.
I've got this on hold:
Revolutionary Yiddishland
A History of Jewish Radicalism
by Alain Brossat

I'm also going to look at other titles, my library has a general history of the Jews that maybe I can read. Someday. When I don't have a million other things waiting.

I ordered a copy of "A People's Tragedy: The Russian Revolution: 1891–1924" by Orlando Figes. It's considered a classic of the genre that I'm hoping sheds some light on the Russian Revolution. Hitler's obsession with "Jewish Bolshevism" (not limited to him, of course) interests me and I'm hoping to gain more insight by reading the above books.

Naturally I still have a major reading project that I'm starting back in on now that I've finished "The End." I'm going to California in a couple of weeks, the plane trip and layovers will help me get caught up on that. I'm going to be off work for almost two weeks so I hope this will help as well.


Got Revolutionary Yiddishland today.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:01 am

Not relative, but since certain members here might be interested in, and after all, this is the book section, right?

- «A Pacifist’s Life and Death. Grigorios Lambrakis and Greece in the Long Shadow of Civil War», Cambridge Scholars Publishing, Newcastle, 2016
http://www.cambridgescholars.com/a-paci ... -and-death

Image

Some of its content:

- Lambrakis before the tricycle
https://goo.gl/s9jVwM

- Lambrakis' top secret Police file revealed
https://goo.gl/dZuEL8

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:17 am

Thanks (for those who don't know of Lambrakis, Jeff_36, Kleon and I discussed him in the France thread, like here
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:04 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Another one I've got on hold:
The Armenian Genocide
A Complete History
by Raymond Kevorkian

Right now I'm behind so I'm putting things on hold. I've got a massive reading project I'm working my way through that I'm hoping to discuss once I'm done.



Got this today. Started reading.

For some reason Revolutionary Yiddishland isn't available right now, I couldn't download it.


I dumped the Armenian Genocide book, not in the mood for it. Revolutionary Yiddishland is what I'm on right now.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:07 am

I finished Adler's Theresienstadt and am 100+pp into Shneyer on Soviet Jewish POWs (I'll post some insights of his in the Judeo-Bolshevik thread sometime soon - yesterday and today I've been recovering from eye surgery, which was a trip in and of itself, and succumbing to post-op tired eye! LOL)
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:11 pm

My library is getting "Holocaust by Bullets," I've got it on hold.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:35 pm

Started Kiril Ferferman's book on the Holocaust in the Crimea. It reads like a proper book of scholarship, unlike Shneyer's book, which is more a collection of documents, interviews, and testimonies. He begins, citing an essay by Geoffrey Robert and Murphy's What Stalin Knew, with the observation that Soviet moves (occupation of Bukovina and Bessarabia, the Soviet threat to the Romanina oil fields, "aggressive deployment of the Red Army") "were weighty factors in Hitler's decision to deliver a large-scale preemptive strike against the Soviet Union" which the Germans then "transformed into a total war of annihilation against 'Judeo-Bolshevism.'" (p 15)
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:28 pm

I'm a little more than a quarter of the way through Feferman's book on the Crimea and the North Caucasus. I recommend it as it is very well done with strong sourcing. It's hard to post "goodies" from it (e..g, there's significant background material on the regions, on which the material on the destruction of the Jewish communities and mass murder of Jews depends), but I do have some more things to post about and will keep looking for still other items.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:52 pm

topics from Feferman to come:
1/ the formula "Communists (Commissars) + Jews" in the region
2/ methods of murder: mechanics and logistics of the killing operations
3/ contrasting some actual resettlement logistics with chimerical resettlement of the Jews by the Nazis
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:40 pm

I recently found a book called "The Jewish Enemy" which covers the multitude and transition of Nazi Anti-Semitic Propaganda. So far in it holds an intentionalist view of the Holocaust, instead of Functionalist or Synthesis.
« Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood. »
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:50 pm

Denying-History wrote:I recently found a book called "The Jewish Enemy" which covers the multitude and transition of Nazi Anti-Semitic Propaganda. So far in it holds an intentionalist view of the Holocaust, instead of Functionalist or Synthesis.

Herf? I have read reviews describing the book as intentionalist but IMO Herf's biggest achievement - I think the book is one of the more important "recent" studies - is, like Confino, to go past this and look at ideology, Weltanschauung, imagination. Herf doesn't study or analyze decision-making or the origins of the FS so much as the anti-Jewish aspect of Nazi ideology as reflected in propaganda, rationalizing thought, and world-view.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:59 pm

Picked up two books, Commandment of Auschwitz and Into that Darkness.
I read "Commandment" a long time ago. I lost my copy, this is a bit of a find. I've wanted Into that Darkness for awhile.

Both have to go back the bottom of the que, I'm afraid but I'm glad I found them.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:13 pm

Finishing up Feferman (highly recommended) and will read Leydesdorff's bio of Sasha Pechersky next, followed by Offenberger's study of Vienna's Jewish community during the Holocaust.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:39 pm

for NathanC: the Pechersky bio is not that good (a number of errors, confusing in parts, etc) BUT it raises an interesting question: if, after the war, the Soviets were busy hoaxing the Holocaust, why didn't they use Pechersky? Pechersky was hemmed in by Soviet censorship and other restrictions (to take one example, the 1945 Russian edition of his earliest memoir, based on letters he'd written and a 1944 edition, substituted the term "Soviet citizens" for "Jews"); some of his later testimonies were edited by Soviet authorities. Pechersky was never honored as a hero, his story wasn't used by the Soviets in celebrating war-time resistance; he lived and died in obscurity - in fact, he suffered the usual punishment and life-long discrimination given to former POWs. Jewish themes in his story, when he did testify, were consistently downplayed - and he was not even permitted to testify at the IMT or at EIchmann's trial in 1961. A major testimony he gave in 1962 in the USSR was, according to the author, "stage-managed by the authorities."

Indeed, one must use care with such testimonies - but for reasons exactly opposite to those given by Monstrous in the EG thread and elsewhere.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:26 pm

adapted and posted at ISF to piggyback on one of Ivanesca's posts . . .
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:47 pm

OK, on to Vienna . . .
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:34 pm

Offenberger's book reads like the doctoral dissertation of candidate whose outlook is light and episodic rather than technical and plodding. She likes repeating the questions that interest her, whether rhetorical or answered in the very next sentence. The book's not great so far, but it's not bad, either. This caught my eye: a man named Harry Gruenberg had, when he was 17 years old, witnessed shortly after Anschluss an appalling act of ritual humiliation of an Orthodox Jewish man, already beaten and harassed by a crowd in Vienna, committed by a young Austrian woman (think: Trump in Russia). Gruenberg did not tell anyone at the time about what he'd seen, nor did he tell anyone in the years that followed. Not until when he was an elderly man and he again witnessed an atrocity - in this case, via photographs of the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq - did he open up about the incident. The photographs which Gruenberg saw at that time of Abu Ghraib brutalities prompted him to recount to his wife and daughter the similar barbarity he'd seen decades prior in Vienna. Such warm memories of W. and his accomplishments in Iraq.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:34 am

Offenberger's book is now officially annoying me. It surveys the usual ground and quotes extensively from a set of diaries, testimonies, etc of victims. The narrative is prolix and repetitious of somewhat trite observations. But the real concern I have is about the way in which the book promotes the diligence and good efforts of the IKG (Jewish community) and never seems to deal with the profound problem that the work, and approach behind it, of the IKG facilitated German Judenpolitik in Austria.

Offenberger's treatment of all this is very superficial and even panglossian - lots of one the one hand/on the other formulations, but also schizophrenic (e.g., in one place she will detail how Nazi policies and IKG collaboration destroyed Jewish family life and in another she will praise the IKG for protecting Jewish family life).

I'm not asking for the author to lay out a different course Viennese Jews should have or might have taken but rather to come to grips with what happened - its cost for Austrian Jews and for the IKG and its leadership and workers. Instead, Offenberger often seems to be writing PR statements for the IKG in prose that's almost breezy and upbeat - a cheery, positive appreciation of all that the IKG did and accomplished. Repeating "choiceness choice" from her reading whilst writing upbeat summaries of IKG accomplishments is not coming to grips with the situation. Offenberger virtually defines, in the name of Jewish agency, collaboration as resistance. Maddening.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:33 pm

This book really pissed me off: the IKG's diligence, enforced by Eichmann's Kommando, in working out logistics for emigration of almost 2/3 of Vienna's Jews is not synonymous with resistance, for crissakes. Got a tip on a better book on Vienna, which I plan to order and read promptly. Just now I have started Aalders book on looting/dispossession of Dutch Jews.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:38 am

books on order:

The Vél d'Hiv Raid: The French Police at the Service of the Gestapo - Rajsfus, Maurice
Site of Deportation, Site of Memory: The Amsterdam Hollandsche Schouwburg and the Holocaust - Duindam, David
Shelter from the Holocaust: Rethinking Jewish Survival in the Soviet Union - Grossmann, Atina
Anatomy of a Genocide: The Life and Death of a Town Called Buczacz - Bartov, Omar
In Broad Daylight: The Secret Procedures behind the Holocaust by Bullets - Desbois, Father Patrick
The Swedish Jews and the Holocaust (Routledge Studies in Second World War History) - Rudberg, Pontus
Hitler's Crusade: Bolshevism, the Jews and the Myth of Conspiracy - Waddington, Lorna
The Participants: The Men of the Wannsee Conference - Jasch/Kreutzmueller (eds)

I also have a number of random PDFs that are available online that I need to work through. (It turns out that the better book recommended on Vienna is one I've read . . . and it was a lot better: Rabonivici, Eichmann's Jews.)
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:34 pm

I saw this today. The subject is an intriguing one, I guess, for a lot of people I know.

http://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/97803001 ... s-monsters

Eric Kurlander
Hitler's Monsters, A Supernatural History of the Third Reich
Price: $35.00
448 pages
ISBN: 9780300189452

The definitive history of the supernatural in Nazi Germany, exploring the occult ideas, esoteric sciences, and pagan religions touted by the Third Reich in the service of power The Nazi fascination with the occult is legendary, yet today it is often dismissed as Himmler’s personal obsession or wildly overstated for its novelty. Preposterous though it was, however, supernatural thinking was inextricable from the Nazi project. The regime enlisted astrology and the paranormal, paganism, Indo-Aryan mythology, witchcraft, miracle weapons, and the lost kingdom of Atlantis in reimagining German politics and society and recasting German science and religion. In this eye-opening history, Eric Kurlander reveals how the Third Reich’s relationship to the supernatural was far from straightforward. Even as popular occultism and superstition were intermittently rooted out, suppressed, and outlawed, the Nazis drew upon a wide variety of occult practices and esoteric sciences to gain power, shape propaganda and policy, and pursue their dreams of racial utopia and empire.

Eric Kurlander is professor of history at Stetson University. His previous books include The Price of Exclusion: Ethnicity, National Identity, and the Decline of German Liberalism, 1989–1933. He lives in DeLand, FL.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:46 pm

I'm currently reading "The Holocaust, a New History" by Doris Bergen. It's a bit of a "meh," she's an intentionalalist when it comes to the subject. I'm reading it to finish it out.

I've got "A Year in Treblinka, Fall of Dynasties and Revolutionary Yiddishland" back up (I couldn't finish "Revolutionary" before it expired).

So, I'm backed up. I pushed out some other things I wanted to read to November and December. This includes some non-Holocaust, WW II stuff, Richard Evans book "Pursuit of Power" is available through my library so I've got that in as well. There is a book on the Revolutionary War that looks interesting. I've also got a history of the Ottoman Empire dialed up.
This also includes Hilberg, Bullock's Hitler and Stalin, the Lodz Ghetto Chronicle and the other two books I have listed above. I'm also still reading "A People's Tragedy." For the upcoming year I'm only going to get "Eyewitness to Genocide," I think I'm going to concentrate on what I have and dial it back a bit on getting new books. I still have some laying around that I haven't read so I want to get to those.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:47 pm

There is one other book, there is a history of Prussia that I stumbled across, I may get that one as well.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:48 pm

Like Statmech I also have some PDF's I need to get to, including one on Sobibor.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:56 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I'm currently reading "The Holocaust, a New History" by Doris Bergen. It's a bit of a "meh," she's an intentionalalist when it comes to the subject. I'm reading it to finish it out.

I've got "A Year in Treblinka, Fall of Dynasties and Revolutionary Yiddishland" back up (I couldn't finish "Revolutionary" before it expired).

So, I'm backed up. I pushed out some other things I wanted to read to November and December. This includes some non-Holocaust, WW II stuff, Richard Evans book "Pursuit of Power" is available through my library so I've got that in as well. There is a book on the Revolutionary War that looks interesting. I've also got a history of the Ottoman Empire dialed up.
This also includes Hilberg, Bullock's Hitler and Stalin, the Lodz Ghetto Chronicle and the other two books I have listed above. I'm also still reading "A People's Tragedy." For the upcoming year I'm only going to get "Eyewitness to Genocide," I think I'm going to concentrate on what I have and dial it back a bit on getting new books. I still have some laying around that I haven't read so I want to get to those.

Eyewitness to Genocide and Lodz Chronicle are must reads IMO. I saw Doris Bergen present in 2012. As you say, meh.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:06 pm

Yes, Eyewitness to Genocide is the next book I'm getting. I'll add stuff from the Lodz Chronicle to the Chelmno thread, that's something else I want to start back up.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:13 pm

As to PDFs, I just took a look at my hard drive - WTF am I thinking? If I live another 50 years, I will not finish reading what's there! LOL
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:35 pm

LOL
Yeah, I know. I actually have a PDF copy of Longerich's Himmler biography. I've got to work that one in as well.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:53 pm

I think that the books mentioned above will be my last for awhile. Once I read them I will start to read PDFs by theme. I have real trouble reading book-length PDFs but forcing myself will get me over that hurdle and save me money even if it pissed Bezos off.

I likely have a few books around on various themes that I haven't read yet so I can work them into PDF reading.

I liked Longerich's Himmler book but can see why many others don't. Warning: there is a great deal of overlap with Holocaust. It is very Longerichy.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:30 pm

It is hard to read book-length PDF's but it does save money. I couldn't finish Longerich's Holocaust but I am looking forward to this one.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:41 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:It is hard to read book-length PDF's but it does save money. I couldn't finish Longerich's Holocaust but I am looking forward to this one.

LOL this one is 2x as long!!
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:43 pm

The Pechersky biography has a long description, with sources quoted, of Pechersky's deportation from Minsk to Sobibór. I am more convinced after reading it that Heinz Rosenberg, remember him?, was indeed deported to Sobibór, not Treblinka as he thought. This was discussed at some length as another gaffe in Eric Hunt's Treblinka transit argument, in the thread on his Treblinka movie.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:46 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:One denier argument is that the Nazis weren't so bad because they only violated international conventions regarding conduct of war in the East and, well, Commies ruled over brutish backwards types in the East, and the Soviets hadn't even signed the conventions of war and they fought illegally anyway.

Leaving aside legalistic arguments over international obligations under such treaties, was it Red treachery that caused a harsher occupation regime and methods of warfare in the East, or other factors? One consideration in this is the extent to which the Germans actually adhered to their international obligations in the West. In his book on collaborationist mayors, Wouters discusses Western perspectives on, for example, the Hague Convention (1907).

Parties to the Hague Convention included Belgium (except for II on debt recovery), France (except VI merchant ships and XIV balloon warfare), the Netherlands, and Germany (except XIV balloon warfare). Article 50 of the convention prohibits hostage-taking ("No general penalty, pecuniary or otherwise, shall be inflicted upon the population on account of the acts of individuals for which they cannot be regarded as jointly and severally responsible"). Wouters details how the Germans collaborated with local authorities, usually police forces, in Nord and Pas de Calais, the Netherlands, and Belgium to compile lists of opponents (Communists, Catholics, political adversaries, recalcitrant officials, representatives of pre-war elites, local teachers, and others) who could be taken hostage for reprisal actions. Especially in Nord and Pas de Calais the Germans executed those on these lists in reprisal for resistance activities occurring in the region. Oftentimes the official position in these regions was against turning over citizens as hostages but a combination of German pressure and bureaucratic games led to lists going to the Germans and to individuals being identified anyway. This was before all hell broke loose in 1944 and outright German warfare against the resistance, assisted by local militias (e.g., the Malice) results in massacres of civilians.

Reading Wouters, while reflecting on Hitler's reprisal orders in general, suggests that German occupation goals and strategies, the course of the war, manpower issues, German views of the population, postwar plans, and occupation structures had more to do with the character of the occupation in western countries than the Nazi's supposed adherence to international agreements. The Germans were more than willing to breach the Hague Convention if it suited their purposes - in the West. In the East, likewise, it was not legalities that shaped Barbarossa and the occupation but German goals and the conditions of warfare there.

The same point emerges from Aalders' discussion of Nazi "looting" of the Netherlands: both the Netherlands and Germany were signatories to the Hague Convention 1907 yet Germany violated the convention repeatedly - and increasingly so as the end of the war neared. In fact, where Germany acted within the convention on financial and property matters (e.g., forbidding individual pillaging) it did so not because of international law but to prevent ill discipline and to protect Dutch property going to individuals rather than to the Third Reich.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817


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