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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:16 am

I’ve developed an interest in the postwar trials, might head in that direction when I’m done with the backlog of books I have.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:39 am

I was looking forward to reading this book - Charlesworth, The 'Minor' War Crimes Trials: A Socio-Legal Investigation of Victims' Justice - but Amazon canceled my order due to non-availability.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:24 am

I found “The Forgotten Trials of the Holocaust” really good.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:24 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Starting a collection of papers in Microhistories of the Holocaust which has a most interesting TOC. The book grew out of a 2012 conference at ENS in Paris. Some of the (for me) intriguing topics include family histories, the destruction of Thessaloniki's Jewish cemetery, Grabowski on Poland (again), slave labor for German aviation factories, Ostrów Mazowiecka in '39, first massacres in Romania, postwar Polish trials, and a case study for "the witness vs. the archive."
This is the one you mentioned....may need to add this to the reading lineup.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:51 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I found “The Forgotten Trials of the Holocaust” really good.
x2
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:11 pm

I highly recommend V Solonari's paper on Transnistria in the Microhistories collection; it's short but quite interesting when, after discussing perpetrator motivations and taxonomies, he gets into the attitudes of the spouses of Romanian shooters.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:15 am

I am heading to Germany and Sweden in a few days, for over a month. I won't be taking as much to read as usual as plans with friends will take precedence, along with some photography work I plan on doing. Here are the books I will be hauling along with me, all in dead-tree format:

* Kopstein & Wittenberg, Intimate Violence: Anti-Jewish Pogroms on the Eve of the Holocaust
* Litvak & Webman, From Empathy to Denial: Arab Responses to the Holocaust
* My Opposition: A Diary of Friedrich Kellner - A German Against the Third Reich
* Sebastian Hafner, Defying Hitler: A Memoir [thanks Balsamo!]
* Kallis, ed, The Fascism Reader [documents collection]
. . . and, for the first book I will have read since 2007 unrelated to our painful topic, Rick Wilson, Everything Trump Touches Dies: A Republican Strategist Gets Real About the Worst President Ever

I've got 6 books more on the occupation of France still to read - and also a shitload of stuff arriving this fall, and into the winter, all on the Holocaust, as posted previously:

* Philip Morgan, Hitler's Collaborators: Choosing between bad and worse in Nazi-occupied Western Europe
* Christian Ingrao, The Promise of the East, Nazi Hopes and Genocide, 1939-43
* Anthony McElligott, The Last Transport: The Holocaust in the Eastern Aegean
* Jacques Semelin, The Survival of the Jews in France: 1940-44
* Annegret Schüle , Between Persecution and Participation: Biography of a Bookkeeper at J. A. Topf & Söhne
* Giorgos Antoniou, The Holocaust in Greece
* Simon Levis Sullam, The Italian Executioners: The Genocide of the Jews of Italy
* Sara Bender, In Enemy Land: The Jews of Kielce and the Region, 1939-1946
* Gabriel Finder, Justice Behind the Iron Curtain: Nazis on Trial in Communist Poland (German and European Studies)
* Erno Munkácsi, How It Happened: Documenting the Tragedy of Hungarian Jewry
* Mary Fulbrook, Reckonings: Legacies of Nazi Persecution and the Quest for Justice
* Alex Kay, Mass Violence in Nazi-Occupied Europe

Also arriving, on related topics:

* Roger Griffin, Fascism
* Wolf Gruner, German Reich, 1933 – 1937 [document collection, VEJ1]
* Paul Hanebrink, A Specter Haunting Europe: The Myth of Judeo-Bolshevism

As I think about this, I believe that even my wife will find this excessive. Mr Bezos, well, he hasn't sent me a personal thank you note but I'm sure he will.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:09 am

This is definitely on my list:
Paul Hanebrink, A Specter Haunting Europe: The Myth of Judeo-Bolshevism
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:20 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:This is definitely on my list:
Paul Hanebrink, A Specter Haunting Europe: The Myth of Judeo-Bolshevism
"Delivery estimate: Monday, November 5, 2018 by 8 PM"
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:26 am

Semi related, I will be attending an academic Holocaust conference this fall. Highlights include:

- Keynote Lecture Omer Bartov, Brown University
- Holocaust Memory in Poland - panel chaired by Jan Tomasz Gross, Princeton University
- The Afterlife of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising: 75 Years Later panel chaired by Marion Kaplan, New York University
- David P. Boder’s Interviews Revisited: Historical Reconsiderations and Educational Challenges in the Digital Age - panel
- What Constitutes Holocaust Testimony? The Boundaries of the Narratable - panel
- Intertwining and Intersecting Genocide and Mass Violence during World War II: Insights from Polish, Yugoslavian, Hungarian, and Russian - Territories - panel chaired by Raz Segal, Stockton University
- Perpetrator Descendants: An Interdisciplinary Panel
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:01 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Rick Wilson, Everything Trump Touches Dies: A Republican Strategist Gets Real About the Worst President Ever
Image
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:09 pm

I am swapping out (right, who cares?) the collection of documents on fascism in favor of Ioanid, The Holocaust in Romania and Solonari, Purifying the Nation [on ethnic cleansing and the Holocaust in Romania]. I'll probably change my mind about travel reading three more times before departing :)
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:09 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Waiting on "Weimar and Nazi Germany 1918-39."
It was taking too long for this to become available. The library did have both volumes of Stephen Kotkin’s Stalin biography available. So, I checked out both at the same time which means I’ll be reading like a mad bastard during any free time I have for the next couple of weeks.

See ya later.... :D
Alright, so about 100 pages left in the first volume.

It’s a bit wordy but there’s a lot of useful information. Kotkin tracks (in very painstaking detail) how Stalin took advantage of situations that came up to drive out rivals. The main rival being Trotsky, of course.


What I found interesting is that Kotkin doubts the authenticity of Lenin’s testament. He notes that it was released at a time when Lenin’s health declined rapidly and the testament itself was allegedly written a few months before. This would’ve prevented Lenin from repudiating it.

I doubt I will even start the 2nd volume before it has to go back, I will set it up to check out again.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:23 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Waiting on "Weimar and Nazi Germany 1918-39."
It was taking too long for this to become available. The library did have both volumes of Stephen Kotkin’s Stalin biography available. So, I checked out both at the same time which means I’ll be reading like a mad bastard during any free time I have for the next couple of weeks.

See ya later.... :D
Alright, so about 100 pages left in the first volume.

It’s a bit wordy but there’s a lot of useful information. Kotkin tracks (in very painstaking detail) how Stalin took advantage of situations that came up to drive out rivals. The main rival being Trotsky, of course.


What I found interesting is that Kotkin doubts the authenticity of Lenin’s testament. He notes that it was released at a time when Lenin’s health declined rapidly and the testament itself was allegedly written a few months before. This would’ve prevented Lenin from repudiating it.

I doubt I will even start the 2nd volume before it has to go back, I will set it up to check out again.
So, finished. I set up an automated checkout for the second volume and will start on it when it arrives.

Final verdict:

It's worth a read of you want to know more about Stalin's early life and the inner workings of the Bolsheviks. It's very detailed regarding Stalin's maneuvers to eliminate his rivals (and his friends) as threats to his power. The most interesting revelation to me is Kotkin's doubts about the Lenin Testament that argued for the removal of Stalin regarding his rude behavior.

I doubt I will buy it though I will read the third volume when it is available. I find I am looking forward to the second volume that details the period from 1929-1941. I think this volume will be more focused due to the smaller time frame.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:03 pm

I recommend Intimate Violence for its rigorous approach and thought-provoking discussion.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:20 pm

Went to House of the Wannsee Conference today for about three hours. Fantastic place. Does a very good job explaining the conference and putting it into context, from details about the convening of the group to the bigger picture.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:55 pm

"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:08 am

For anyone familiar with Franjo Tudjman, I've ordered his book "Horrors of War: Historical Reality and Philosophy". There isn't much good to say about it.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by montgomery » Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:41 pm

And it can't be a mystery to you who is so well read on the holocaust, the reason that motivated that sort of hate. You spell it out for me if you think we might disagree.

The interesting thing to me is that now that we see demonstrations of hate against Muslims by Americans, we are more assured that such hate against a people is actually possible. Some would have doubted.

Is the hate for Muslims as rational or more rational than the German people's hate for Jewish people? Could either be termed 'rational'?

Another two examples could be the American hate for the people of Iraq or the people of Vietnam? We know the American methods used to slaughter millions of the enemy. We are left still trying to sort out the methods used by the Germans in some respects. Albeit, in neither of the examples, we are not aware of the truth in that they all actually happened.

This is the reason why we pursue the topic of the holocaust after more than 70 years! Inquisitive people are still making pilgrimages to WW2 German concentration camps. (German operated, not in Germany specifically)

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:13 pm

Currently reading Golstein and Goldstein’s “The Holocaust in Croatia”. So far I’m at chapter 4 and it’s been extremely exciting. I skipped to chapter 39 and it did a good job of refuting some of the claims in “Horrors of War”.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:17 pm

I think it is a really good book. I know you'll add your thoughts as you go along.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:23 pm

Probably. I generally keep my thoughts quite when ever I promise to add them lol.

Waiting on Horrors of War to arrive to compare and contrast, some of the Croatians defenders say Tudjman's detractors take him out of context or lie about him.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:40 pm

Forgot to mention a new book arrived today:

German Atrocities 1914: A History of Denial
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by montgomery » Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:04 pm

Denying-History wrote:Forgot to mention a new book arrived today:

German Atrocities 1914: A History of Denial


Take note of the "Sponsored products relating to this item".



I can save you the trouble of readin more of the 'same old, same old'. All wars contain lots of the brutality that is being suggested in this book. A book on the slaughter of the Iraqi people by Americans, written by an Iraqi would be far more educational for you.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by montgomery » Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:07 pm

montgomery wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Forgot to mention a new book arrived today:

German Atrocities 1914: A History of Denial


Take note of the "Sponsored products relating to this item".



I can save you the trouble of readin more of the 'same old, same old'. All wars contain lots of the brutality that is being suggested in this book. A book on the slaughter of the Iraqi people by Americans, written by an Iraqi would be far more educational for you.

You said:
Probably. I generally keep my thoughts quite when ever I promise to add them lol.
Huh?? You'll excuse me if I suggest that you might like 'Green Eggs and Ham'?

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:10 pm

Hmm, “see irrelevant books that we probably don’t share”:
• In First Person
• A Girl Called Renee
• I Only Wanted to Live

Yeah, totally on topic or making a point.

> Whataboutism

Idc for this, sorry.
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« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:11 pm

montgomery wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Forgot to mention a new book arrived today:

German Atrocities 1914: A History of Denial


Take note of the "Sponsored products relating to this item".



I can save you the trouble of readin more of the 'same old, same old'. All wars contain lots of the brutality that is being suggested in this book. A book on the slaughter of the Iraqi people by Americans, written by an Iraqi would be far more educational for you.

You said:
Probably. I generally keep my thoughts quite when ever I promise to add them lol.
Huh?? You'll excuse me if I suggest that you might like 'Green Eggs and Ham'?
Lol Mate, I don’t care. I don’t proofread {!#%@} when I’m at work.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by montgomery » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:43 pm

Denying history says:
I generally keep my thoughts quite when ever I promise to add them lol.
If we change the word 'quite' for 'guiet', would it then make sense? No, not really. You keep your thoughts quiet when you promise to add them? Aren't you really saying that you don't read and so you won't be able to make informed comments? ?

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:29 am

montgomery wrote:Denying history says:
I generally keep my thoughts quite when ever I promise to add them lol.
If we change the word 'quite' for 'guiet', would it then make sense? No, not really. You keep your thoughts quiet when you promise to add them? Aren't you really saying that you don't read and so you won't be able to make informed comments? ?
Lol If you are mixing up an obvious typo of “quiet” for “guiet” then I think you are probably special and don’t text much.
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« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:17 am

What word is this? 'guiet'
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:57 am

Another order:
-Why Ireland Starved by Joel Mokyr
Reason: to disprove Coogan's "Coffin Ships".
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by montgomery » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:40 pm

Denying-History wrote:
montgomery wrote:Denying history says:
I generally keep my thoughts quite when ever I promise to add them lol.
If we change the word 'quite' for 'guiet', would it then make sense? No, not really. You keep your thoughts quiet when you promise to add them? Aren't you really saying that you don't read and so you won't be able to make informed comments? ?
Lol If you are mixing up an obvious typo of “quiet” for “guiet” then I think you are probably special and don’t text much.
I don't text at all. Don't sweat over a typo. You and Stat.mech must have better things to do than that kind of juvenile personal attack. Have 'you'?

You people's approach to anybody that doesn't immediately bow to your dogma is paranoia thick enough to cut with a knife! Politeness on my part doesn't even ease the tension that's built among you, and that's before I've even made any claims that are contradictory.

Somebody might be watching your behavior, but I doubt it.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:07 pm

> I get to complain when people do it to me.
> Yet I do the same thing.

You have a really fair system there.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:17 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Waiting on "Weimar and Nazi Germany 1918-39."
It was taking too long for this to become available. The library did have both volumes of Stephen Kotkin’s Stalin biography available. So, I checked out both at the same time which means I’ll be reading like a mad bastard during any free time I have for the next couple of weeks.

See ya later.... :D
Alright, so about 100 pages left in the first volume.

It’s a bit wordy but there’s a lot of useful information. Kotkin tracks (in very painstaking detail) how Stalin took advantage of situations that came up to drive out rivals. The main rival being Trotsky, of course.


What I found interesting is that Kotkin doubts the authenticity of Lenin’s testament. He notes that it was released at a time when Lenin’s health declined rapidly and the testament itself was allegedly written a few months before. This would’ve prevented Lenin from repudiating it.

I doubt I will even start the 2nd volume before it has to go back, I will set it up to check out again.
So, finished. I set up an automated checkout for the second volume and will start on it when it arrives.

Final verdict:

It's worth a read of you want to know more about Stalin's early life and the inner workings of the Bolsheviks. It's very detailed regarding Stalin's maneuvers to eliminate his rivals (and his friends) as threats to his power. The most interesting revelation to me is Kotkin's doubts about the Lenin Testament that argued for the removal of Stalin regarding his rude behavior.

I doubt I will buy it though I will read the third volume when it is available. I find I am looking forward to the second volume that details the period from 1929-1941. I think this volume will be more focused due to the smaller time frame.
I checked out the second volume again and hope to finish it this time.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:01 pm

>> You people's approach to anybody that doesn't immediately bow to your dogma

At least two obvious problems with this proclamation from on high: 1st, no one here knows this guy's views because: “Yes, I could elaborate on that but no, I won’t.” This sort of trolling hasn't exactly interested me, at least, in finding them out, either. 2nd, “your dogma” is just goofy: hell, D-H and I don't even agree on the definition of genocide . . . and yet I like D-H and welcome his comments, go figure.
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Denying-History
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:06 pm

Meh, idk if we do much disagree. I think it’s more I just use the legal definition because it’s what I’m used to. I think I may dwell on the matter some time in the future.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:23 pm

Denying-History wrote:Meh, idk if we do much disagree. I think it’s more I just use the legal definition because it’s what I’m used to. I think I may dwell on the matter some time in the future.
I actually hoped we'd get back to that discussion some time, as I never resolved my own questions . . . it sure beats fisking Weber!
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:33 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Meh, idk if we do much disagree. I think it’s more I just use the legal definition because it’s what I’m used to. I think I may dwell on the matter some time in the future.
I actually hoped we'd get back to that discussion some time, as I never resolved my own questions . . . it sure beats fisking Weber!
Maybe a few weeks or so. I have some more reading from Liam Kennedy’s “Unhappy the Land” to finish and John Kelly’s “The Graves are Walking” - the latter shouldn’t take to long, I listen to the audiobook at work.

After that I can reread Michael Mann’s “Dark Side of Democracy” and Leo Kuper’s “Genocide: Its Political Use in the Twentieth Century”.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:37 pm

Also, forgot to mention I’ve read some of Vahakn N. Dadrian‘s writings on the matter and he proposes five different types of genocide.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by nickterry » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:40 pm

montgomery wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Forgot to mention a new book arrived today:

German Atrocities 1914: A History of Denial
Take note of the "Sponsored products relating to this item".



I can save you the trouble of readin more of the 'same old, same old'. All wars contain lots of the brutality that is being suggested in this book. A book on the slaughter of the Iraqi people by Americans, written by an Iraqi would be far more educational for you.
Looks like you've not only misunderstood this sub-forum, but also how Amazon works. "Sponsored products" is an annoying feature Amazon added this year, both on .com and .co.uk, and the titles are not guaranteed to have any connection to the item one looks at. The 'sponsored products' also clog up searches. The relevant titles are the 'customers who viewed this item also viewed' or 'customers who bought..' In this case, one WWI general title by one of the same authors, and two books on the same subject, the Imperial German Army in Belgium in 1914.

Horne/Kramer is a classic title in the study of First World War violence, and makes a very convincing case. Rather than relying on contemporary Entente propaganda about German 'frightfulness', with all the exaggerations and hysteria involved, the authors looked at German regimental and other unit histories largely from the 1920s to document reprisal shootings of Belgian and French civilians that were often provoked by panic by inexperienced German conscripts and reservists - some cases turned out to have been triggered by friendly fire - together with a very harsh interpretation of the laws of war that saw militiamen, despite wearing badges as required, treated as partisans. The 'franc-tireur psychosis' had occurred in 1870 and recurred again in 1939 in Poland. All very historically specific, because today's laws of war absolutely prohibit reprisals of this kind.

John Horne and Alan Kramer went on to organise a large-scale research project on the First World War and its aftermath - they were joined in Trinity College Dublin by Robert Gerwarth, who has since published a history of the aftermath of WWI, The Vaniquished. These projects have been comparative, and have contributed to an understanding of the era from 1912 to 1921/1923, from the Balkan Wars to events such as the Irish Civil War, as a long era of escalating violence, exacerbated by previous trends in European colonial/imperial violence. This includes *Russian* colonial violence in the Caucasus and Central Asia, and its impact on Tsarist conduct during WWI and its legacies for the Bolshevik regime and its opponents during the Russian Civil War. Paramilitary violence on the left and the right from 1918-1921 helped shape the conduct of totalitarian and authoritarian/fascist regimes in Europe into the 1930s and 1940s - veterans of the Freikorps or the Red Army of the Russian Civil War rose to significant positions and retained their wartime mentality in many respects, with utterly disastrous consequences under Stalinism, and later under Nazism.

The violence from 1912-1921/23 included violent ethnic cleansing of Muslims in the Balkans in 1912-13 and the Armenian genocide of 1915, along with the Greco-Turkish War after WWI. In the same year as the Armenian genocide, the Russians deported 1 million ethnic Germans and Jews eastwards out of the combat zone on the eastern front out of paranoia at spying and potential collaboration - this coincided with the similar deportation of up to 1 million Armenians into the Syrian desert by the Ottoman state, but was much less lethal than the death marches of the Armenian genocide. But the flight of refugees eastwards exacerbated the problems faced by the Tsarist regime in St Petersburg and Moscow, and thereby contributed indirectly to the outbreak of revolution in 1917.

Denying-History has since gone on to talk about buying books on comparative genocide studies and on the Armenian genocide - I'm happy to recommend a whole host of titles on this and other topics, since I teach this era in a university history department, in a course on the history of Central and Eastern Europe during the 19th/20th Century.

My colleagues, by the way, include historians who research or have researched the experience of Indian troops in both world wars and Indian revolutionaries after 1917, the Russian Revolution/Civil War, the aftermath of Stalinism, colonial violence during the decolonisation of the French and other European empires after 1945, strategic bombing during WWII, the Irish Revolution/Civil War, the end of the apartheid era in South Africa, and the Ku Klux Klan, just to name some of the more violent topics. We have many colleagues researching other themes, but comparative violence studies is a big deal for us. We even have colleagues who study the memory of repression and violence, so they like us are quite familiar with whataboutery.

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