General Books/Reading Discussion

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Jeffk 1970
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:03 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Utopia in Power is good, if a bit old.

Where's Jeff_36? {!#%@} Canadians burned the White House down. He needs to answer for this shite.


LOL, I was just getting to post that:

According to the sources, Trudeau pressed Trump on how he could justify the tariffs as a "national security" issue. In response, Trump quipped to Trudeau, "Didn't you guys burn down the White House?" referring to the War of 1812.


:rotfl:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/06/06/politics/war-of-1812-donald-trump-justin-trudeau-tariff/index.html


https://youtu.be/bOR38552MJA
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:01 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Utopia in Power is good, if a bit old.

Where's Jeff_36? {!#%@} Canadians burned the White House down. He needs to answer for this shite.


LOL, I was just getting to post that:

According to the sources, Trudeau pressed Trump on how he could justify the tariffs as a "national security" issue. In response, Trump quipped to Trudeau, "Didn't you guys burn down the White House?" referring to the War of 1812.


:rotfl:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/06/06/politics/war-of-1812-donald-trump-justin-trudeau-tariff/index.html


https://youtu.be/bOR38552MJA


Shocking trump even knows what the war of 1812 was.
« I want people to experience exactly what it meant to enter a gas chamber at Auschwitz, I want them to walk down the stairs into the chamber, to stand before the ovens and see that this was insane and criminal. I want it to be a slap in the face. You can’t create memory, but you can create an experience that is as powerful as memory. »
- Jean Claude Pressac

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:05 am

Well...........Trumpsters also know USA has had a long strong relationship with the government of Germany AS EVIDENCED BY: ".............this is the anniversary of the D-Day Invasion............"

You can't make this stuff up.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:27 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Utopia in Power is good, if a bit old.

Where's Jeff_36? {!#%@} Canadians burned the White House down. He needs to answer for this shite.


I was busy capturing Detroit. I have returned! And I'm bringing the ghost of Issac Brock to the G7! Trump wont know what hit him! Muahahahahahaha!

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:45 am

LOL let our people go, dammit!!! You lot are probably behind the Bowling Green Massacre, too. Right? Canada has been taking advantage of us for far too long. #MAGA
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:43 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Utopia in Power is good, if a bit old.

Where's Jeff_36? {!#%@} Canadians burned the White House down. He needs to answer for this shite.


I was busy capturing Detroit. I have returned! And I'm bringing the ghost of Issac Brock to the G7! Trump wont know what hit him! Muahahahahahaha!



Free Frederick Douglass, Jeff, I mean it!!!!
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:38 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:LOL let our people go, dammit!!! You lot are probably behind the Bowling Green Massacre, too. Right? Canada has been taking advantage of us for far too long. #MAGA


I am very spoiled and very difficult to deal with. Dont forget that. #KeepAmericaGreat

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:13 pm

mark_gr wrote:What's a good book on Auschwitz

For starters Laurence Rees' "Auschwitz, A New History" gives a good general history.

What sort of focus do you want to look at?
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:53 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
mark_gr wrote:What's a good book on Auschwitz

For starters Laurence Rees' "Auschwitz, A New History" gives a good general history.

What sort of focus do you want to look at?


Assuming he's joining because this is a "Holocaust denial" board. Anatomy of Auschwitz, The case for Auschwitz, Auschwitz 1270 to present, or Technique and operation is where they would want to start.
« I want people to experience exactly what it meant to enter a gas chamber at Auschwitz, I want them to walk down the stairs into the chamber, to stand before the ovens and see that this was insane and criminal. I want it to be a slap in the face. You can’t create memory, but you can create an experience that is as powerful as memory. »
- Jean Claude Pressac

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:17 am

mark_gr wrote:What's a good book on Auschwitz

I missed this, sorry mark_gr. Non-specialist, non-technical books that I found valuable include Deborah Dwork & Robert Jan Pelt, Auschwitz, 1270 to the Present; Hermann Langbein, Men in Auschwitz; Robert Jan Pelt, The Case for Auschwitz (this book is based on Pelt's work on the Irving trial); Sybille Steinbacher, Auschwitz: A History (brief narrative history of the camp); and Yisrael Gutman & Michael Berenbaum, Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp.

The 5-volume museum history of the camp is, IMO, indispensable, as is Pressac, Auschwitz: The Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers for evidence for gassing (here).

On daily life in the camp I liked Primo Levi, Survival in Auschwitz and The Drowned and the Saved; for the Sonderkommando, Gideon Greif, We Wept Without Tears.

From Holocaust Controversies here's an "Index of Published Evidence on Mass Extermination in Auschwitz and Auschwitz-Birkenau."

What to read depends, of course, on what you're most interested in.

Edit: it appears a number of us just saw the same post!
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:19 am

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
mark_gr wrote:What's a good book on Auschwitz

For starters Laurence Rees' "Auschwitz, A New History" gives a good general history.

What sort of focus do you want to look at?


Assuming he's joining because this is a "Holocaust denial" board. Anatomy of Auschwitz, The case for Auschwitz, Auschwitz 1270 to present, or Technique and operation is where they would want to start.


I think Rees is a better place to start depending on what you want to know.

I just got “Anatomy” today.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:19 am

I found Rees pretty darned light . . . just sayin'.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:22 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
mark_gr wrote:What's a good book on Auschwitz

ISybille Steinbacher, Auschwitz: A History


Forgot about this one, it’s not bad but I liked Rees a little better.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:26 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I found Rees pretty darned light . . . just sayin'.


Sorry, posted before I saw this comment.
I liked it better than Steinbacher. I think by the time I got to her book I wanted something deeper.

I think it depends on what you want. I think D-H and your books are good suggestions but it might be a bit much for someone who is just getting into it. Pressac makes more sense once you get the basics, same with Van Pelt.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:32 am

Yeah, Steinbacher is more like an essay. A quick read for the basic narrative and key points. Thing is, I don't know what mark_gr has read and/or knows and what mark_gr is after, so who knows what the best recommendations are!?!?! LOL I guess if it was a "first book" on the camp, and just one title, I'd recommend Dwork & Pelt's book. It's readable, has good detail, and goes into a fair amount of depth.

Btw, welcome to mark_gr . . .
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:46 am

I liked Van Pelt and Dwork’s book as well. It got deep into the history of the town itself.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:37 am

Honestly Rees book kinda really only felt like his 6 hour film. Didn't have a lot of value - content wise - for what we discuss with deniers.
« I want people to experience exactly what it meant to enter a gas chamber at Auschwitz, I want them to walk down the stairs into the chamber, to stand before the ovens and see that this was insane and criminal. I want it to be a slap in the face. You can’t create memory, but you can create an experience that is as powerful as memory. »
- Jean Claude Pressac

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:29 pm

I’m not sure what mark wants to read about it, that’s why I suggested Rees. Steinbacher is OK for a general read but I didn’t think it worthwhile.

If mark is more interested in the Holocaust denial part then Van Pelt’s court report or The Case for Auschwitz is good for that, along with Pressac.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:46 pm

Started “Anatomy” last night. I should’ve bought it years ago.

I remember I saw it once at 1/2 Price Books. I don’t know why I didn’t get it but I regret it now.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:46 pm

Putting aside the history on the USSR for Anatomy.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:35 pm

If I can I will track down the other forensic report the Poles completed in the 1940’s.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:26 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
mark_gr wrote:What's a good book on Auschwitz

For starters Laurence Rees' "Auschwitz, A New History" gives a good general history.

What sort of focus do you want to look at?


Assuming he's joining because this is a "Holocaust denial" board. Anatomy of Auschwitz, The case for Auschwitz, Auschwitz 1270 to present, or Technique and operation is where they would want to start.


I think Rees is a better place to start depending on what you want to know.

I just got “Anatomy” today.


I can say from experience that Rees is the best possible starting point. I made the error of starting off with RJVP. Whoops.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:34 pm

You're Canadian though, a mortal enemy of truth, justice and the American way :)
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:38 pm

I agree, I read Pressac before I was ready for it. Just my opinion but Rees gives a good overall view of the subject, not just Auschwitz.

Once you get the bird's eye view it helps to focus on the subject. If I was Mark I wouldn't start with Pressac or Pelt.

I didn't think Steinbacher was bad but Stat Mech liked it better than I did.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:45 pm

I liked Steinbacher for pulling back, highlighting patterns, themes, key points after immersion in details. Not a good one to start with. Has mark_gr done any reading on the camp, do we know?

An aside, my father was a college professor. He taught Faulkner, among other things. In high school I asked which of Faulkner's novels to read. He told me I wasn't ready. In college I asked - he told me I wasn't ready yet. When I graduated, I asked again - and again was told I wasn't ready. I asked during grad school - not ready. Same deal when I left grad school. Finally in my early 30s I said, "{!#%@} all, I am going to read this bastard." I read The Sound and the Fury, Light in August, Absalom Absalom and As I Lay Dying before telling my father. I really couldn't quite come to grips with how great these books are. I asked why he'd always told me to wait before reading them. He repeated that I hadn't been ready. I asked, "How would you know when I was ready?" He said, "When you picked up the books and read them despite what I told you." LOL Over a year or so I read every book and short story Faulkner wrote. That was a very, very satisfying year. I was ready!

Moral of the story: there's a part of me that says just jump the hell in the good stuff.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:50 pm

It's hard to narrow down suggestions.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:00 pm

The first book I read on Auschwitz was Levy's Survival in Auschwitz (If This Is a Man). Then IIRC The Drowned and the Saved. And then Langbein, Men in Auschwitz. None of these titles figures much in HD debate; all three were IMO outstanding. As you wrote, a lot depends on what one is after . . .
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:01 pm

The one thing I hope we can agree on is an invasion of Canada. Soon.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:36 am

Invasion of Canada? I'm close to the border anything happens I'll record.

Also started revisiting - as a break from the Kirov Murder - the An Gorta Mór of 1845-1849 (some falsely extend it to 50-52) and the faithful followers of John Mitchel.
« I want people to experience exactly what it meant to enter a gas chamber at Auschwitz, I want them to walk down the stairs into the chamber, to stand before the ovens and see that this was insane and criminal. I want it to be a slap in the face. You can’t create memory, but you can create an experience that is as powerful as memory. »
- Jean Claude Pressac


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