World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

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World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Monstrous » Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:39 pm

World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/World_War_ ... evisionism

So how are the Believers explaining away these statements? The National Socialists still talking about deportations to Africa after the war while a full scale genocide is supposedly ongoing?

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:15 pm

:hmm: Lotta arguing going on there... but, actually, you were wanted over here to answer a few questions regarding statements made by you. I think there are also a few other places you ignored and simply went off starting new threads.

Your tactic is kinda... threadbare, so to speak.
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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:49 pm

Ah, no answers to questions you have left unanswered for days and weeks - but another link on a new topic. Which I won't click for now.

But I wonder, how do you answer this? And this? And this? And this? And this? And this? And this? And this? And this?

For starters.

Now, see, you can add a link in reply, and we can all join in and post links til our hearts' content. Or you can ignore the question and links and just post a link to a new topic. And we can, too. But first, before we have so much fun . . . as scrmbldggs reminded you, you have unfinished business in the thread you started on evidence for the Holocaust. If you can't answer the questions you've been asked, just say so, and then we can move on.

As to the OP comment that "The National Socialists still talking about deportations to Africa after the war while a full scale genocide is supposedly ongoing?" we had a long discussion of that and related issues a few months ago. I will click on the link and see what you've posted - after you answer the direct questions put to you in your evidence thread.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Xcalibur » Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:45 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Ah, no answers to questions you have left unanswered for days and weeks - but another link on a new topic. Which I won't click for now.

But I wonder, how do you answer this? And this? And this? And this? And this? And this? And this? And this? And this?

For starters.

Now, see, you can add a link in reply, and we can all join in and post links til our hearts' content. Or you can ignore the question and links and just post a link to a new topic. And we can, too. But first, before we have so much fun . . . as scrmbldggs reminded you, you have unfinished business in the thread you started on evidence for the Holocaust. If you can't answer the questions you've been asked, just say so, and then we can move on.

As to the OP comment that "The National Socialists still talking about deportations to Africa after the war while a full scale genocide is supposedly ongoing?" we had a long discussion of that and related issues a few months ago. I will click on the link and see what you've posted - after you answer the direct questions put to you in your evidence thread.



Well, I clicked through: lotsa shopworn crap from Irving, Mattogno, Graf , Weckert and Rudolf. Nothing you haven't already seen, SM.
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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:56 pm

Well, a link to metapedia ("History: The original – Swedish – Metapedia was started on August 3, 2006[3] by Anders Lagerström of Linköping – a neo-Nazi activist...") pretty much says as much. Here's what the rational crowd has to say about it:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Metapedia wrote:Metapedia is a website which describes itself as "an electronic encyclopedia about culture, art, science, philosophy and politics." The site's stated focus is "on topics that usually are not covered in — i.e. that fall outside of — mainstream encyclopedias." It has been described as "an 'internet love site', dedicated to the love of European people and culture."[2]

In reality, however, Metapedia is little more than thinly-veiled neo-Nazi propaganda, with a generous helping of Holocaust denial. The site is awash in anti-Semitic conspiracy theory. A key trope is blaming the Jews for undermining the West via cultural Marxism...
.

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Xcalibur » Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:06 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Well, a link to metapedia ("History: The original – Swedish – Metapedia was started on August 3, 2006[3] by Anders Lagerström of Linköping – a neo-Nazi activist...") pretty much says as much. Here's what the rational crowd has to say about it:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Metapedia wrote:Metapedia is a website which describes itself as "an electronic encyclopedia about culture, art, science, philosophy and politics." The site's stated focus is "on topics that usually are not covered in — i.e. that fall outside of — mainstream encyclopedias." It has been described as "an 'internet love site', dedicated to the love of European people and culture."[2]

In reality, however, Metapedia is little more than thinly-veiled neo-Nazi propaganda, with a generous helping of Holocaust denial. The site is awash in anti-Semitic conspiracy theory. A key trope is blaming the Jews for undermining the West via cultural Marxism...


Right. It's an aggregation of BS.

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:33 am

Xcalibur wrote:. . . lotsa shopworn crap from Irving, Mattogno, Graf , Weckert and Rudolf. Nothing you haven't already seen, SM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bp6gaB-YmVA
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Xcalibur » Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:04 am

About as interesting as watching paint dry...

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:48 am

or waiting for Monstrous to write something responsive?
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Monstrous » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:55 pm

Monstrous must admit to being surprised by the scale of the rout and the defeat of the Believers here.

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Monster » Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:08 pm

Monstrous wrote:Monstrous must admit to being surprised by the scale of the rout and the defeat of the Believers here.

I read through this thread and then saw this. I like that. Ignore questions ===> declare victory. It's idiocy like that which can bring a smile to people's faces.
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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:24 pm

Monstrous wrote:World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/World_War_ ... evisionism

So how are the Believers explaining away these statements? The National Socialists still talking about deportations to Africa after the war while a full scale genocide is supposedly ongoing?


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You ignore that the notion of "total genocide" is a strawman.

The Jews referred to are Jews in countries still under allied control, and working Jews left over afterwords.

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:32 pm

Ah, the victory dance. Vacuous, juvenile BS. Monstrous knows very well that he's trying to move on to new topics whilst leaving old ones unaddressed - and he knows just as well that some of us won't take his bait.

Pyrrho: can the title of this thread be changed? to something like: "Monstrous can link to Metapedia. I, Monstrous, am clever!" Ok, I guess not.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:14 pm

Monstrous wrote:Monstrous must admit to being surprised by the scale of the rout and the defeat of the Believers here.

It doesn't really surprise me. Their only real answer is that the Nazis were talking in secret code and even they can't say that with a straight face. What else could they do?
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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:20 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Monstrous wrote:Monstrous must admit to being surprised by the scale of the rout and the defeat of the Believers here.

It doesn't really surprise me. Their only real answer is that the Nazis were talking in secret code and even they can't say that with a straight face. What else could they do?

Thank you, Maryzilla, for you little split and cheerleading twirl. An important contribution that (but, no, the discussion I referred to didn't delve into "secret code" . . . hmmm, puzzling you think it did . . . and, no, we've not had a discussion here yet, as we're busy trying to wrap up open issues elsewhere . . . as noted.)

. . . Maybe you can answer the questions in other threads that Monstrous keeps running away from . . .
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:31 pm

. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Balsamo » Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:50 am

Is this monstrous a kind of Steven Willow joke...in reverse...?

Love the sources of this metapedia {!#%@}... especially Ingrid Weckert whose article is the closer to insanity it can be... :lol:

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:14 am

took a look at the metapedia page...

all red herrings. I sound like a broken record at this stage but whoever wrote that article has no notion of the concept of Labour/SB 40/60 fit/unfit. Dr. Wirths of Auschwitz testified about it at length in a very apologetic, unremorseful manner, basically (paraphrasing) "we never exterminated all of them, we only killed those who could not work, I tried to save as many as possible, It was a matter of separating those able to work from those not able to do so".

Labor is key. It is of the utmost importance in understanding denier strawmen. A general deportation for labor in the east would have required the killing of nonworking Jews. See the Eichmann-Luther telex I mentioned above.

Monstrous does not understand any of that.

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Xcalibur » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:54 am

Monstrous is doing nothing here other than proving that chimps are pests.

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:23 am

Xcalibur wrote:Monstrous is doing nothing here other than proving that chimps are pests.

Image

Even Mackayla is not impressed.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:27 pm

Interesting remarks made by Germans just after their defeat in WWII:

August Töpperwien's tu quoquish "balance sheet" - ruminating in his diary on the genocidal persecution of the Jews but outlining a case for Germans as at least equal victims of the war
A mankind who wages war like this has become godless. The Russian barbarities in the German east . . . the terror attacks of the Anglo-Americans - our struggle against the Jews (sterilisation of healthy women, shooting everyone from infants to old women, gassing of the Jewish transport trains).

Of the Allies' victory, and about Gräuelpropaganda, Ursula von Kardoff wrote
And when the others come with their boundless hatred and gruesome accusations, we will have to keep quiet because they are true.

When she later published her diary, in the early 1960s, according to the author, Kardoff decided against including this acknowledgement of Germans' guilt and thus edited the text to cut it out.

source: Stargardt, pp 539, 547-548
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Monstrous » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:40 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:Labor is key. It is of the utmost importance in understanding denier strawmen. A general deportation for labor in the east would have required the killing of nonworking Jews.

Why? Stalin never bothered with that in his labor deportations. Those who did not work got no food and died of starvation.

Now, regarding any Jews sorted out as unfit for labor, they would likely have been sent to already existing or new ghettos.

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Monstrous » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:43 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:The Jews referred to are Jews in countries still under allied control, and working Jews left over afterwords.

So there was no intent to kill all Jews?
Last edited by Monstrous on Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Monstrous » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:43 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Monstrous wrote:Monstrous must admit to being surprised by the scale of the rout and the defeat of the Believers here.

It doesn't really surprise me. Their only real answer is that the Nazis were talking in secret code and even they can't say that with a straight face. What else could they do?

Agree.

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:04 pm

Monstrous wrote:Now, regarding any Jews sorted out as unfit for labor, they would likely have been sent to already existing or new ghettos.

That word "likely" again . . . you mean "likely" the way Jews from Oszmiana, Swieciany, and elsewhere were sorted out for transfer to Ponary "ghetto" in the so-called Kovno action?

So after selections at Birkenau (during 1942 and 1943), you allege, the unfit Jews, despite what the Wannsee protocol foreshadowed, were removed to ghettos? To which ones, when, how, in what numbers (magnitude is important to know - so we can tell exceptions from the rule)? How were these unfit Jews in the ghettos to which they were supposedly removed supported?

Jews sent from the outlying towns to the large ghettos - as to Łódź or Warsaw or even to Zagare - were they the unfit and did they stay put and live, healthy long lives in the larger ghettos?

And you allege this? That after selections in ghettos - e.g., Łódź, Kaunas, Vilnius, Riga, Lublin, Izbica, Bialystok, Minsk, Czestochowa, Radom, Siedlce, that pesky Warsaw again, etc - Jews deemed unfit, despite what Goebbels's diary said was being done with the unfit Jews in the east, were removed from such ghettos, and sent on either through AR camps, e.g., or directly, to other ghettos? Which ghettos received 100s of 1000s of such unfit Jews, from which ghettos did these "transferees" come, when were they transferred, by what processes, supported by what documents? Why were the unfit moved from ghetto to ghetto? And is this what the Höfle telegram meant listing the destination of deported Jews as L, B, S, T - L for Łódź, B for Bialystok, S for Šiauliai, and T for Theresienstadt?

Perhaps you will stop jumping from this to that, and making overgeneralizations, and settle yourself for long enough to explain how this worked in just 5 cases, with some detail and evidence, say, for Vilnius, Izbica, Łódź, Warsaw, and Radom . . . ? After you've explained to us about the "Kovno action" of course. Or not . . . so long as you and Maryzilla are swapping warm kisses . . .
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:18 pm

Ignorant ignorant ignorant

There is a difference between nazi Germany and the USSR because Hitler considered all Jews a threat and made many speeches basically stating that they would be destroyed. There was intent to decimate them via forced labour and lock the surviving Jews in some shithole. Non working Jews were to be killed outright. See the Wetzel report.

In the USSR non working Koreans or Ukrainian Greeks were resettled into harsh settlements in central Asia. We know the location of these settlements , how many died, and how many survived. Decedents were repatriated but many live in the area to this day.

Do tell us with the same precision where the Jews went?

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:43 pm

Come on - what were the main patterns following selections?

Theresienstadt? Izbica?

:pc:
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Monstrous » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:22 pm

1) First, Monstrous would like to point out the Believers are dodging the "World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism".

2) Second, since the Believers are interested in the thoughts of Monstrous, Monstrous is happy to deliver. Where were we? Oh yes, what happened to those unable to work? Let's see...
...Monstrous found this chapter to be interesting: "National Socialist Policy of Resettlement of Jews in
the East According to Demographer Eugene M. Kulischer". Just as stated by Monstrous, there were many ghettos with Jews in the East.
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=8

Monstrous also found this interesting: " those who were
unemployable could be sorted out and sent to Bezec...
...In conclusion he stated that he could accept 4-5 transports daily, of
1,000 Jews with the destination station of Bezec. These Jews would go
across the border and would never come back into the General Gouverne-
ment."
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=8

3) Third, Monstrous would like to point out the Believers are dodging the "World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism".

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:20 pm

Monstrous wrote:1) First, Monstrous would like to point out the Believers are dodging the "World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism".

No, we have addressed at least two. Xcalibur has pointed out that we have seen all of them before. I find it amusing that you included the "Jews to KL's order".

2) Second, since the Believers are interested in the thoughts of Monstrous, Monstrous is happy to deliver. Where were we? Oh yes, what happened to those unable to work? Let's see...
...Monstrous found this chapter to be interesting: "National Socialist Policy of Resettlement of Jews in
the East According to Demographer Eugene M. Kulischer". Just as stated by Monstrous, there were many ghettos with Jews in the East.
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=8

Why then did the population statistics from RKO and RKU not reflect what would be an insanely huge bloating of the Jewish population of those respective RK's? Both were declared Judenfrai in 1943 and there was no massive population spike before then either. As I have always said, the resettlement thesis requires the presence of hovercraft and alien abductions. You have yet to address the train documents.

Monstrous also found this interesting: " those who were
unemployable could be sorted out and sent to Bezec...
...In conclusion he stated that he could accept 4-5 transports daily, of
1,000 Jews with the destination station of Bezec. These Jews would go
across the border and would never come back into the General Gouverne-
ment."
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=8

Quoted out of context. That was what Turk was being told by Hofle. In a later file note he remarked that the Belzec camp was totally closed off and that nothing could be found out about it. Additionally, "cross the border" was likely a euphemism, and I am extremely hesitant to play the euphemism card (just ask SM lol). There was no details on destination and most of the Jews sent to Belzec were sent from Galacia, west of it's location. There was no population spike in the neighboring RKU either. Hardly evidence. This was Holfe pulling the wool over Turk's eyes. Just see the other note.

3) Third, Monstrous would like to point out the Believers are dodging the "World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K00Su8-3pEQ

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:28 pm

Monstrous wrote:1) First, Monstrous would like to point out the Believers are dodging the "World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism".

I am not a "believer" in anything, but assuming you are mischaracterizing me along with others, no, I am not avoiding reading your Metapedia link and replying. Rather, I am simply taking care of first things first: as I told you directly, over a week before this pathetic thread was opened,

You reply to what you've been asked, I will move on, simply. So don't lie, to try making yourself look halfway acceptable, about this again. I've not dodged - what I've done is kept to my word.

Others have been less rigid than I about your antics and have made replies to some points apparently in the link.

Monstrous wrote:2) Second, since the Believers are interested in the thoughts of Monstrous,

Unwarranted assumption, again assuming you count me as what you call a "Believer." What is happening in this thread is more like rubber-necking: no one can look away from the mayhem you're causing yourself with the unadulterated BS you come out with.

Monstrous wrote:Monstrous is happy to deliver. Where were we? Oh yes, what happened to those unable to work? Let's see...
...Monstrous found this chapter to be interesting: "National Socialist Policy of Resettlement of Jews in
the East According to Demographer Eugene M. Kulischer". Just as stated by Monstrous, there were many ghettos with Jews in the East.
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=8

Are you an imbecile? No one contests that there were many ghettos in the east - what is contested is your claim that, after selections, the Germans sent most of the unfit Jews to ghettos as an end destination: "regarding any Jews sorted out as unfit for labor, they would likely have been sent to already existing or new ghettos."

It is noted that you refuse to give any explanation for what happened to the Jews who lived in, or were sent to, specific places you were asked about: Vilnius, Izbica, Łódź, Warsaw, Radom . . . and the "Kovno action." So it is you who keeps dodging.

Monstrous wrote:Monstrous also found this interesting: " those who were unemployable could be sorted out and sent to Bezec...
...In conclusion he stated that he could accept 4-5 transports daily, of 1,000 Jews with the destination station of Bezec. These Jews would go
across the border and would never come back into the General Gouvernement."
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=8

Except the Jews sent to Bełzec were not sent eastwards out of the GG. Provide evidence that they were - that would put them in the Reichskommissariat Ukraine, kind of in the area around Luck or Rovno, no? Is that what you mean? You see, the note you quote doesn't give any location beyond Bełzec - because there was none. What evidence do you have for 10s of 1000s of Jews deported first to Bełzec in spring-summer 1942, then shortly afterward arriving in large numbers across the GG border in this area of the RKU? Or anywhere east of the GG? Do you have German reports? Eyewitnesses? Transport documents? Census information? Anything?

Also, has it occurred to you why you were asked to discuss specific ghettos and actual numbers, not to cherrypick bits and pieces?

Please stop linking to advertisements for books, in this case Mattogno's book on Treblinka, and explain instead, with specific citations, the {!#%@} point you're trying to make. I am sick of finding, searching, etc. for what you want to tell us.

As to where you seem to want to head here, first, what you imply - shoving Jews out of the General-Gouvernement - is not what you argued when you wrote that the unfit Jews would mainly "have been sent to already existing or new ghettos." Which is it - expulsion from the GG during the war - or internment in ghettos? Do you plan to keep changing your story as it suits your purposes?

For another thing, in the book your advert touts, the author laughably confuses Majdanek and Bełzec (p 237); more to the point, the note quoted by Il Re di Convoluzione explains "selection" and the role which Lublin and so-called transit ghettos (e.g., Piaski) in the region were slated to play, with Bełzec receiving unfit Jews and making certain that they did not "return" whilst Jews would go through the other places for slave labor.

The date on the note you quote from was 17 March 1942. Türk in the BuF office in the GG described on 7 April how Polish Jews would be removed to make room for western Jews deported to Poland: "The number of Jews brought from the west will be equal to the number of local Jews deported." (Arad, BST, p 45) A note of 20 March 1942 states that there by then existed a "collection camp" near Bełzec station that was "closed off" and staffed by SS (White Paper, p 197).

And, finally clued in to the Final Solution, on 27 March Goebbels described what he'd learned of the details of the operations being conducted in Poland:
Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the General Government are now being evacuated eastward. The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only about 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.

The former Gauleiter of Vienna, who is to carry this measure through, is doing it with considerable circumspection and according to a method that does not attract too much attention. A judgment is being visited upon the Jews that, while barbaric, is fully deserved by them. The prophesy which the Fuehrer made about them for having brought on a new world war is beginning to come true in a most terrible manner. One must not be sentimental in these matters. If we did not fight the Jews, they would destroy us. It's a life-and-death struggle between the Aryan race and the Jewish bacillus. No other government and no other regime would have the strength for such a global solution of this question. Here, too, the Fuehrer is the undismayed champion of a radical solution necessitated by conditions and therefore inexorable. Fortunately a whole series of possibilities presents itself for us in wartime that would be denied us in peacetime. We shall have to profit by this.

The ghettoes that will be emptied in the cities of the General Government now will be refilled with Jews thrown out of the Reich. This process is to be repeated from time to time. There is nothing funny in it for the Jews, and the fact that Jewry's representatives in England and America are today organizing and sponsoring the war against Germany must be paid for dearly by its representatives in Europe - and that's only right.

It would interesting to hear an explanation, with citations of evidence, for what happened to the Jews of Lublin, who, according to Goebbels, were evacuated to somewhere to start the "liquidation" process run by the "former Gauleiter of Vienna" (Globocnik in Lublin). It is my understanding that starting 17 March the Jews of Lublin were deported to Bełzec and murdered there. Pray tell, where "out of the GG" do you imagine these 30,000 or so Jews, along from 1000s more from other towns in the region, were sent during March-April 1942?

Monstrous wrote:3) Third, Monstrous would like to point out the Believers are dodging the "World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism".

Get a grip: you're repeating yourself.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Balsamo » Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:48 am

Statmec:
Also, has it occurred to you why you were asked to discuss specific ghettos and actual numbers, not to cherrypick bits and pieces?


It seems to me that his OP is all about " the cherry picking fallacy" as would call it Nessie. So he just keeps being loyal to his OP.

Please stop linking to advertisements for books, in this case Mattogno's book on Treblinka, and explain instead, with specific citations, the {!#%@} point you're trying to make.


It is all he does, actually. I doubt he has enough knowledge to have a personal point in the first place.

I am sick of finding, searching, etc. for what you want to tell us.


I would say you should not. But i sense the presense of Matthew who is delighted to all the informations your are giving in your posts, even though the one whom those info are addressed to, does not give a damm.

He would make us feel missing David...maybe that is his sole point.

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:03 am

And btw Monstrous, don't try to pull any more {!#%@} like "there were lots of ghettos in the east" or "Jews weren't sent only to death camps." No fooling, Sherlock. You're being asked to support your clear statement that after selection, unfit Jews were mainly sent to ghettos. So stay focused on that.

To help you out, here are some thoughts about one "case," the Warthegau:

In late October Greiser, governer of the Warthegau, wrote Himmler about prior approval, given by Himmler and Heydrich, for “The operation of special treatment of some 100,000 Jews in my governmental area.” This note written by Greiser, introducing a request for permission to murder 35,000 tubercular Poles, gives important clues as to how Greiser proposed, with Himmler's approval, dealing with unfit Jews in the Warthegau.

In fact, in July and again in August 1941, Uebelhor (governor of the Kalisz-Lodz District) would tell Lodz district officials that efforts to “insettle” sick Jews to Lodz were discontinued, explaining to them Greiser had ordered sick Jews be left where they were (presumably these sick Jews were to left in place to await planned extermination actions). (Montague, Chelmno and the Holocaust, p 35)

On 9 December, the day after the first murder action at Chelmno, a conversation was picked up by an air-force listening post: Uebelhor told the Lodz state police office that “on the orders of the Gauleiter [Greiser] those sick in the ghetto were to be brought away.” (Epstein, Model Nazi, p 185) Eichmann’s trial testimony confirms the decision to kill unfit Jews: “this is what Greiser did - for those from Litzmannstadt who were unable to work to be killed. Section IVB4 had nothing to do with that.” Transports of Jews considered unfit (or especially troublesome, thus not suitable for labor) went from Łodz to the Chelmno death camp in January, February, March, April, May, and September 1942, carrying over 70,000 Jews to their deaths there.

The purpose of the murders that began at Chlemno in December 1941, then, was two-fold: to "make room" for western Jews being deported into the Warthegau, which deportations began in October 1941, and to get rid of Polish Jews who could not be used for coerced labor. The decision was a local decision, requested by Greiser to deal with "his" problems and approved by Himmler for the Warthegau, in summer-fall 1941, before the European-wide extermination program was decided. It was part of the escalation in Jewish policy taking place after Barbarossa and including the eastern campaigns of the police units, which by August 1941 were targeting all Jews in regions of the occupied USSR.

Montague in his book on Chelmno places Greiser’s decision, based on approval from the RFSS, for extermination of a large number of Warthegau Jews (about 400,000 Jews lived in Greiser’s domain when the Warthegau was formed), sometime between mid-July, when Höppner made his proposals ("to liquidate the Jews by some kind of rapid-action measure . . . it would be more pleasant than to watch them dying of starvation") , and September 1941 (when mass executions of Jews in the Gau first took place ) – “probably closer to the former than the latter date.” In late September, Mehlhorn (an official in Greiser’s administration in Poznan) was appointed lead for resolving “all issues necessary connected with accommodating and employing the Jews and Gypsies of the Wartheland.” (Montague, p 35; see also Trunk, Lodz Ghetto, p 229) Also at Greiser’s disposal was Sonderkommando Lange, which had previously carried out so-called euthanasia murders in the Warthegau, which would take up residence at Chelmno in late fall 1941, after more than a year of action carrying out murders, by gas and shooting, of mental patients across the Warthegau as part of the “euthanasia program.” To SK Lange Greiser’s men attached troops from an Orpo unit commanded by Willi Lenz, who would oversee the forest camp where corpses of the unfit Jews were to be buried.

Fit Jews, on the other hand, were deployed in labor - by 1943 over 60,000 of them in workshops in Łodz, working for the Werhmach and other German entities as well as several 1000s elsewhere in the Warthegau put to work on the construction of the Autobahn, projects for the Reichsbahn, and a number of German companies. In late 1941 and early 1942, with the deportation of Jews from Germany, Austria, and the Protectorate into Łodz, the ghetto there would serve as a collection point for Jews who would be largely sent on to Chelmno, where they were gassed in vans in spring-summer 1942. There is, of course, more detail to the events in the Warthegau, but in broad outline the beginning of the mass murder of the Jews there shows how the unfit were to be dealt with again and again once the Final Solution was decided.

(Btw all this directly connects to the challenges and issues you've been dodging in the "evidence" thread where you also made different sorts of "transit" claims.)
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:39 am

This is hilarious you guys Jeff_36 thinks that Steven Willow might be behind mosntrous and is laughing at all of us right now. Not even Clayton Moore was that stupid.

Whaddayathunk SM? who is stuipider? Monstrous or Clayton Moore?

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:57 am

Jeff_36 wrote: Whaddayathunk SM? who is stuipider? Monstrous or Clayton Moore?
Clayton Moore was the intellectual equivalent to "absolute zero" in physics. Just by standing near him, your IQ would drop 10 points.

Clayton was an extra on the movie Tobruk. That's obviously where he got his entire knowledge of history and his ideas on manly behaviour from Rock Hudson. :D
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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:12 am

At least he knew the difference between lye and lime. That was about it.

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:35 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:This is hilarious you guys Jeff_36 thinks that Steven Willow might be behind mosntrous and is laughing at all of us right now. Not even Clayton Moore was that stupid.

Whaddayathunk SM? who is stuipider? Monstrous or Clayton Moore?

Clayton Moore was dumber: e.g., I doubt that Clayton Moore ever figured out how to create spam links and post them. That said, it is difficult to understand what Monstrous is trying to achieve here, other than trolling for occasional rah-rahs from the now brain-dead Maryzilla.

By refusing to engage, also, Monstrous brings to the forum a degree of tedium that I'd never imagined achievable.

(Speaking of dumb and dumber, I personally rate David as even more asinine than Clayton Moore. Anyone remember davecatlicense - serial abuser of fonts and obsessed with something or other about Nuremberg, liked to comment on his own posts "Pearls, davecatlicense, pearls"? The hippie-dippie Nazi Steve Wiseman AKA Barrington James whose spiritual quest taught him that a faction of the Nazis and Zionists conspired to undermine the Führer or something like that? Gene Alley, who loved American football and feared the Illuminati? Werd and been-there certainly are at home with such bottom feeders, too. Rollo the ganger, known here as "Chester" before receiving a lifetime ban IIRC, was incredibly stupid - but tried making up for it with giddy and misdirected enthusiasm - has Rollo disappeared or is he still active?)
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:32 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:This is hilarious you guys Jeff_36 thinks that Steven Willow might be behind mosntrous and is laughing at all of us right now. Not even Clayton Moore was that stupid.

Whaddayathunk SM? who is stuipider? Monstrous or Clayton Moore?

Clayton Moore was dumber: e.g., I doubt that Clayton Moore ever figured out how to create spam links and post them. That said, it is difficult to understand what Monstrous is trying to achieve here, other than trolling for occasional rah-rahs from the now brain-dead Maryzilla.

By refusing to engage, also, Monstrous brings to the forum a degree of tedium that I'd never imagined achievable.

(Speaking of dumb and dumber, I personally rate David as even more asinine than Clayton Moore. Anyone remember davecatlicense - serial abuser of fonts and obsessed with something or other about Nuremberg, liked to comment on his own posts "Pearls, davecatlicense, pearls"? The hippie-dippie Nazi Steve Wiseman AKA Barrington James whose spiritual quest taught him that a faction of the Nazis and Zionists conspired to undermine the Führer or something like that? Gene Alley, who loved American football and feared the Illuminati? Werd and been-there certainly are at home with such bottom feeders, too. Rollo the ganger, known here as "Chester" before receiving a lifetime ban IIRC, was incredibly stupid - but tried making up for it with giddy and misdirected enthusiasm - has Rollo disappeared or is he still active?)


Rollo was at RODOH as recently as a few months ago spewing antisemitic garbage and repeating old tired White Russian Memes about the 1917 revolution on Crookes's WUF thread.

IDK, Moore was stupid but Monstrous's persona makes him highly entertaining

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Balsamo » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:45 pm

Monstrous said:
1) First, Monstrous would like to point out the Believers are dodging the "World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism".


No one dodged, but you might want to concentrate to one point at a time. You know, like the codoh rule, one thread one topic.
I think no one here would deny the couple of documents which are used in your Metapedia {!#%@}, but as it was pointed out to you, a quote or even a document by itself does not make history.

You should at least give us something worth discussing.
This article is so bad that it is just not worth the effort. You should "tick" when you see phrases like "all Historians"...It is almost an insult to intelligence as everyone can see that even on this, there are no absolute consensus. Some could rightly point out that the conditions in which the Jews were treated in Poland as soon as 1939, was quite illustrative of a genocidal intent.

To make things short, here, no one denies that emigration was the “Final Solution” as thought during peace time.
Here is one of the extract:
On August 28, 1933, soon after Hitler gained power, the Reich Economics Ministry concluded the so called ‘Haavara Agreement’ with the Jewish Agency for Palestine, an accord that was intended to lay the basis for the emigration of approximately 52,000 German Jews to Palestine by the year 1942.[3] National Socialist Germany supported Jewish emigration in many ways such as by cooperating with Zionist organizations in creating training camps where young Jews were to learn agricultural and trade professions to prepare them for the completely different life of Palestine. The book Jewish Emigration from the Third Reich states that "The total number of Jews who left Germany (and Austria) after 1933 cannot be ascertained statistically, because there was no counting at the point of departure or at the point of arrival. Estimates vary from 100,000 and 537,000, a discrepancy that reflects the unreliability of those figures." The 537,000 figure is from the Wannsee Protocol.[2]
On July 15, 1938, the Evian Conference concluded. The conference participants condemned the antisemitism in Germany but emphasized that unfortunately their own countries could not take in large numbers of immigrants.[2]


I admit that the Transfer Agreement does not have the bibliography it should deserve. But there is one nevertheless. And Frau Ingrid article is probably the worse one can read on that subject. Anyway, I don’t have the number in mind, but it was indeed successful.
Concerning the Wannsee number, it also includes Jews from the Protectorate (30.000). The number for Germany is 360.000, which is more or less confirmed by the Korherr report (352.534).
Contrary to what the article suggest, those emigration numbers have been taken into consideration by Historians. The Korherr report states that the 1933 Jewish population in Germany was 561.000. That leaves 210.000 Jews in Germany by 1941. A quick look at a Wiki page https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoahn the Holocaust:

Numbers of Jews before the war from Lucy Dawidowicz are 240.000 (this includes Jews from Austria), Elie Barnavi estimates that 180.000 German (and Austrian) Jews were killed. Jacob Robinson has 125.000 for Germany and 65.000 for Austria. Hilberg has 160.000.
I am sure you can do the math .

The Rublee-Wohlthat Agreement is also a cherished for obscure reasons by deniers who tend to become delusional when talking about it. Indeed, it was yet another initiative going in the same direction as the Haavara Agreement, but it came a bit too late. IIRC, all we have about it is a memorandum. I am not aware of any reliable sources that can propose an estimate of Jews who emigrated through it – during the last 6 months of peace. In any case, those would be included in the figures given by the Nazi and what I wrote above is also valid for that gambit.
Basically, it is valid for most of the documents and quotes up to Wannsee. And you might be surprised to learn that we had some nice debates and discussion on most of the points you seem to think are unknown to us or ignored by us. There is just no “All Historians say”… Pretending that there is one, is just the perfect illustration of the lack of real knowledge among deniers.

It is well known to Historians that up to Wannsee, and following Goering decree of January 39, that the Final Solution – as thought in 39 – was to be dealt with by various ministries and offices – Jewish desks – which explains most of the documents and quotes listed in this idiotic article. Of course, the article ignore all the documents related to the death rates in the Ghettos in the east, about the mass shootings that were taking place after Barbarossa, the initiatives taken by the “Nazi little kings” in the East – like Greiser and the kind.

I have just seen that Statmec covered those points. And I guess that you won’t even try to address them.

So I’ll leave the other points until you address those already given to you.

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:26 pm

Balsamo wrote:. . . emigration numbers have been taken into consideration by Historians. The Korherr report states that the 1933 Jewish population in Germany was 561.000. That leaves 210.000 Jews in Germany by 1941. A quick look at a Wiki page https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoahn the Holocaust:

Numbers of Jews before the war from Lucy Dawidowicz are 240.000 (this includes Jews from Austria), Elie Barnavi estimates that 180.000 German (and Austrian) Jews were killed. Jacob Robinson has 125.000 for Germany and 65.000 for Austria. Hilberg has 160.000.
I am sure you can do the math .

Well said, and very true. I just happened to read yesterday in an essay by Wolf Gruner and Jörg Osterloh, the following: between 1933 and 1938, the number of Jews in the "Altreich" dropped from 520,000 to 240,000 by a combination of emigration and expulsions. Anchluss added 190,000 Jews living in Austria to the Greater Reich, the annexation of the Sudetenland added 29,000, and the Protectorate had 118,000. In the same book we read that by fall 1939, when war against Poland was launched, the number of Jews in Austria had dropped by 126,000, the number in the Sudetentland had been reduced by about 25,000, and the number in the Protectorate had fallen by 28,000. (The USHMM webpage on Jewish refugees from Germany up through 1939 gives roughly the same estimates; the order of magnitude of the Jewish emigration and expulsions from central Europe is not to my knowledge in dispute.)

Indeed, the mystery here is how deniers can keep a straight face when pretending not to know what historians have concluded.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: World War II statements argued to support Holocaust revisionism

Postby Monstrous » Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:29 pm

HA!!!

The Believers are still awed and stunned and have been unable to mount even the most feeble response to the questions Monstrous asked in the very first post. Repeated here for convenience: "So how are the Believers explaining away these statements? The National Socialists still talking about deportations to Africa after the war while a full scale genocide is supposedly ongoing?"

Instead they have tried to divert attention from their ruinous defeat by focusing on the pre-Holocaust statements such as the Transfer Agreement which are the least interesting ones and not relevant for the questions Monstrous asked.


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