Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:18 am

I also think that its rather rich that VFX (presumably) endorses the activity of the vile, expansionist NLF - judging by his Vietnam thread - all the while denigrating actual freedom fighters over here.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by VFX » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:21 am

Well done Jeff but you also need to investigate how much effort the NKVD put into these Partisans, how much money and to discount the fact that the Soviets sent many of their mercenaries into our territory or their territory. This was guerrilla warfare at its worst. I suspect the rules of any dignity were long gone when all people are fighting for mere breathing. The Vietnam thread has nothing to do with this.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Nessie » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:45 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: He has yet to comment on the data, preferring to push out his slogan like some kind of warped advert.
The Soviet partisans were members of resistance movements that fought a guerrilla war against the Axis forces in the Soviet Union, the previously Soviet-occupied territories of interwar Poland in 1941–45 and eastern Finland. The activity emerged after the Nazi German Operation Barbarossa during World War II, and according to Great Soviet Encyclopedia it was coordinated and controlled by the Soviet governmentand modeled on that of the Red Army. The primary objective of the guerrilla warfare waged by the Soviet partisan units was the disruption of the Eastern Front's German rear, especially road and rail communications. There were also regular military formations called partisans, that were used to conduct long-range reconnaissance patrol missions behind Axis lines from the Soviet-held territory. Read more from source :)
And.......????? :lol:

This is a quote from the article that you linked:
Jewish women, children, and the elderly were usually not welcome.


Are you a spoof?
He is trolling and when I tried to engage him in the debate, I was roundly criticised by various people here. The very same people who are now happily trying to engage him in debate.....
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by VFX » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:01 am

Nessie wrote:
He is trolling and when I tried to engage him in the debate, I was roundly criticised by various people here. The very same people who are now happily trying to engage him in debate.....
You got problems with your other forum member "flipper". You should have been criticized by the other members due to your inept debate style. Actually no one is engaging in a debate at all, just throwing rocks, spoons and rubber duckies like you.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:33 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Jeff. The biggest problem I have with how your responding here is that in your zeal to defend partisan warfare against the Germans you’ve confused two issues. The massacres of Jews were not on account of partisan activity but rather to exterminate Jews as the way to make territory Jew-free. What you think of the partisans is different to that. And in much of the occupied east really a later issue.
Look, I realize that the massacres of Jews by the EG's predated the most significant spike in partisan warfare. I also understand that the "partisan" label used by the Olhendorfs and Jagers of the time was bogus, often comically so. However, what I am doing is proving that VFX's contention is still false, even if we fight on his terms - even if we do discuss the period where Jewish participation in partisan warfare was at its height, we still see nowhere near the same percentages as the ones you documented of EG victims. The fact that there was three years of difference separating the two is a coup de grace from the perspective of a debate.
I'm aware of what you think you're doing.

But, first, I have no idea why you want to do it. Second, what you think you are doing and what you are doing aren't the same thing. Debating on his terms is to confuse the issue: "the period where Jewish participation in partisan warfare was at its height," it was still not all that significant from the pov of the Soviet partisans. Jews were not the instigators of the communist partisan movement, they were not core to it, they were "often" not welcomed into it, Jews' participation was generally late coming to it - in Lithuania as we discussed after the Jewish communities had been wiped out - and relatively small. Again, to go back to the Baltic region, by fall 1941, when the great murder sweeps of the Germans were continuing, Jews were either dead, about the be killed, or in ghettos.

This is why I re-posted this - to remind you of how the Germans' were targeting victims in their sweeps and to take it out of the realm of speculation and moral right. I also think, as we've done in this thread, a micro-look at how the executions were planned, organized, and carried out is a richer historical approach than debating a non-existent point - accepting deniers' terms that Jews were core to the partisan movement.

As a result of the confusion you introduced, you're now debating Vietnam instead the history of the open-air shootings.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:44 am

Nessie wrote:. . . The very same people who are now happily trying to engage him in debate.....
Not sure if you mean Jeff_36 or me . . . with the exception of one aside, I am actually debating Jeff_36, which happens a lot! We were rudely interrupted, from my pov (Jeff_36 seems to have been debating both VFX and me, OTOH). I wanted to convey to Jeff_36 that I think he has this bolloxed up . . . and that his comments can lead to false impressions of the mobile units' operations and of the nature of the partisan movement in the East . . .
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:36 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
VFX wrote: Deutschland was being invaded morally, spiritually and physically by the Untermenschen.


I thought we hanged the last of your ilk at the NMT.
But VFX didn't participate in war crimes or genocide during WWII - and, further, not to quibble, but the last true believers in fascism were not executed after the Nuremberg trials. IMO we shouldn't be insinuating in here that fascists should be hanged - it's kind of a reverse Traynor to do so. Just my two cents.

(Good to have you back - so we can continue our running debates!)
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:27 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote: Jews were not the instigators of the communist partisan movement, they were not core to it, they were "often" not welcomed into it, Jews' participation was generally late coming to it - in Lithuania as we discussed after the Jewish communities had been wiped out - and relatively small.
I think that has been well established. I never disputed any of these facts. All I was pointing out was that these alleged "Jewish Gunslingers" were few in number and never dominated the partisan movement to the degree that VFX alleged, even later on in the war. Additionally - it is no secret that the partisan movements of 1941 were mostly isolated and localized in nature, consisting of abandoned Red Army solders and basically no Jews at all.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:41 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Nessie wrote:. . . The very same people who are now happily trying to engage him in debate.....
Not sure if you mean Jeff_36 or me . . . with the exception of one aside, I am actually debating Jeff_36, which happens a lot! We were rudely interrupted, from my pov (Jeff_36 seems to have been debating both VFX and me, OTOH). I wanted to convey to Jeff_36 that I think he has this bolloxed up . . . and that his comments can lead to false impressions of the mobile units' operations and of the nature of the partisan movement in the East . . .
If I may present for a moment in my defense ;)

I never saw myself as arguing with you. You summed up the timeline of Jewish participation better than I could have, and I have substantial knowledge of the demographic trends that you mentioned - I earlier pointed out that most partisan bands in the "hot zone" so to speak were predominantly Belorussian or Russian in composition. What I gathered from VFX was a contention that any Jewish participation in the partisan movement at any time served as a retroactive justification for the mass murders - a horrific argument. I thus sought to prove that the dominance that he mentioned was not present. I may have misread, apologies, his prose is a bit muddled at times.

Vietnam was just a side-note, nothing more - I just found it funny that he was making one set of arguments in one thread and a totally different set in another.

If Arad's recollections are any indication, the motivation for the surviving Jewish volunteers in 1943-1944 must have been extremely strong, as they regularly put up with antisemitic abuse from their fellow partisans. I have this theory that one saw all-Jewish units like Nokmim in Lithuania because the local Soviet partisans were not hospitable for Jewish members. The ones who did join, by several accounts on Dovid Katz's site, endured a fair share of taunting and isolation.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:49 pm

I'm just saying - I thought we loved to debate, from the air war to Eichmann :) - that throwing in whether partisan activity was justified confuses the issue, muddying the discussion of all the points we agree on.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:03 pm

Arad writes that the Soviets made conscious efforts to limit the number of Jews in partisan ranks in the Rudniki forest region of southern Lithuania. These efforts included the prohibition of any expansion of an existing family camp that operated in the area. The reason, reportedly, was a desire on part of the Soviets to attract more Lithuanian recruits, and the notion that the Lithuanians would have found the presence of Jews in the movement to be distasteful.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:04 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I'm just saying - I thought we loved to debate, from the air war to Eichmann :) - that throwing in whether partisan activity was justified confuses the issue, muddying the discussion of all the points we agree on.
Ok, that we do :)

I confess that I threw that in, I have always admired resistance fighters in any country in WWII (with a few exceptions) and I thought VFX was full of {!#%@}.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:12 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I'm just saying - I thought we loved to debate, from the air war to Eichmann :) - that throwing in whether partisan activity was justified confuses the issue, muddying the discussion of all the points we agree on.
Ok, that we do :)

I confess that I threw that in, I have always admired resistance fighters in any country in WWII (with a few exceptions) and I thought VFX was full of {!#%@}.
You are not alone in that assessment.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:20 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I'm just saying - I thought we loved to debate, from the air war to Eichmann :) - that throwing in whether partisan activity was justified confuses the issue, muddying the discussion of all the points we agree on.
Ok, that we do :)

I confess that I threw that in, I have always admired resistance fighters in any country in WWII (with a few exceptions) and I thought VFX was full of {!#%@}.
He is, and I would guess you know where I stand on Jews who resisted the Nazis with arms :) or in other ways.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:21 pm

Put another way: I like your throwing it in their faces - but maybe in another thread!
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:34 pm

Jeff_36, here's a pertinent blog article at HC from 10 years ago by Jon Harrison on this very subject - quoting from a report of SS-Obersturmbannführer Eduard Strauch, KdS in Belorussia to von den Bach. The report is dated 25 July 1943 and concerns Kube's hesitations about the murder program targeting Jews in the East. Harrison wrote that at this time
Strauch sent a long report to his superior, von dem Bach (Nuremberg file NO-2662), in which he complained bitterly about the behaviour of the Generalkommissar of White Ruthenia, Wilhelm Kube. The report is reproduced in full at the Axis History Forum here. The report includes the following revealing paragraphs:
On numerous occasions Kube has said to me personally that Jews evacuated from the Reich could be spared without any problem since they do not understand the local language and would therefore not pose a danger in so far as their becoming involved in guerrilla activities was concerned.

I am convinced from the evidence that deep down Kube is opposed to our actions against the Jews. If he does not admit to this outwardly the only reason is his fear of the consequences. He is in agreement with actions against Russian Jews because he is able to appease his conscience by the fact that the majority of Russian Jews collaborate with the guerrillas.
As Harrison added,
Every false denier claim, from Butz downwards, that the Einsatzkommandos were 'just' killing partisans can be safely trashed using this one extract. It confirms what was already obvious to anyone who has read the Operational Situation Reports, such as those in this link, namely that Jews were killed purely on the basis of their assumed 'racial origin'.
Hint to deniers: that Nazi officials believed demon-images of Jews is not being contested - rather, the problem is that you don't get to commit mass murder because you have a delusional, paranoid view of Jews, Roma, or any other group of people. As an example of what I'm talking about take Harald Turner's 26 October 1941 letter in which Turner, chief of military administration in Serbia, ordered that Jews and Roma be seized as hostages and killed because, said Turner, "Jews and Gypsies [were] an element of insecurity and thus of endangerment to public order and safety."

Turner explained his rationale that the "Jewish element play a significant role in leading the gangs" [Serbian partisans] and "it is especially the Gypsies who are responsible for particular cruelties and for the intelligence service." As Wolfgang Wipperman comments, Turner provided no proof of such fantastical claims but would write on 29 August 1942 that Serbia had become "the only country in which the Jewish question and the Gypsy question [have been] solved." (Wipperman, in Kay & Sahel, eds, Mass Violence in Nazi-Occupied Europe, p 84)

Unfortunately for the Jews=partisans, Roma=cruel intelligent agents thesis, Tito's partisan movement would only grow in strength and numbers after the solution of the Jewish and "Gypsy" questions in Serbia. (see Sabrina Ramet, The Three Yugoslavias; Jozo Tomasevich, War and Revolution in Yugoslavia; Alexander Prusin, Serbia under the Swastika; and Tomislav Dulic, Utopias of Nation: Local Mass Killing in Bosnia & Herzegovina, 1941-42)
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by VFX » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:14 am

Nope National Socialism does not have any paranoia about Jews any more than Swedes have about Muslims now. This thinking is entirely your own misconstructs.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:18 pm

When deniers justify the mass shootings in the East on account of anti-Jewish paranoia, they tell us more about themselves than about the history of the period and German operations.

Turner's formulation "the only country in which the Jewish question and the Gypsy question [have been] solved" raises another question about deniers. What about the Sinti and Roma (so-called Gypsies)? Why, according to deniers, did the Germans include them in the mass executions which they conducted in Serbia, the occupied Soviet Union, and Birkenau?

If I've read deniers on the mass murder of the "Gypsies," I've forgotten what they say. As to the occupied East, and the present issues, I can only guess that they will tell us that the EMs which report on the executions of partisans, as they put it, were at the same time fabricated - the classic IFWF argument. And maybe that, like the Jews who were shot and gassed, the Sinti and Roma somehow deserved it, even though it didn't happen.

Or does the problem just not fit into deniers' general anti-Semitic obsessions?
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by VFX » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:04 pm

I think that someone in a discussion speaks of mass executions in the second paragraph has already got his mind set up and there is little point in discussion. Partisans were shot no Jude were gassed. There is no anti semetic obsession with us, only you: we do not care a toss about Jude one way or the other. Like all religions it is fake unlike a political enterprise which does adhere to policies of human welfare.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by BornAgainDisciple » Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:39 pm

Why to use word Jude? Why cannot use word Jewish or Jew?
Speaking of anti-Semitic obsession... Many of the present day Israelis are not of Semitic origin,
but of European origin. But somehow there seems to be general anti-Jewish mentality in some comments.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by VFX » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:03 pm

BornAgainDisciple wrote:Why to use word Jude? Why cannot use word Jewish or Jew?
Speaking of anti-Semitic obsession... Many of the present day Israelis are not of Semitic origin,
but of European origin. But somehow there seems to be general anti-Jewish mentality in some comments.
The same question was asked by a Zionist a short while ago. I find the word Jew demeaning and naturally use Jude. Semitic origin seems like another fantasy, but perhaps you can explain what you mean by this? We are not anti Jewish but anti corruption and anti liars. I am not suggesting that all Jude fit into that category at all, in fact most do not but there is a team of International players who seemingly use Jüdisches Erbe as a club card which caused the calamity of 1939 onwards: they are seemingly doing this today in Syria and elsewhere. As they say:
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Nessie » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:20 pm

BornAgainDisciple wrote:Why to use word Jude? Why cannot use word Jewish or Jew?
It is part of his trolling tactics. He makes up little nicknames for others, such as book boy, eggs and flipper. Not using someones own chosen name is a way of undermining someone.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by BornAgainDisciple » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:24 pm

Then just use English word Jewish, not Jude, Jood, Yid and so on.
Semitic origin is not fantasy but like I wrote, many present day Israelis are not of Semitic origin.
Some Palestians are though. There is lots of different Jewish sects and not just one or two.
BTW, not every Jewish person is a Zionist. Many Zionist groups are supposedly Christian.
Do these also belong to anti corruption and anti liars agenda?
Catholic church for example?
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by VFX » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:43 pm

BornAgainDisciple wrote:Then just use English word Jewish, not Jude, Jood, Yid and so on.
Semitic origin is not fantasy but like I wrote, many present day Israelis are not of Semitic origin.
Some Palestians are though. There is lots of different Jewish sects and not just one or two.
BTW, not every Jewish person is a Zionist. Many Zionist groups are supposedly Christian.
Do these also belong to anti corruption and anti liars agenda?
Catholic church for example?
My native language is Deutsch and I will use what I want. I have never demeaned any jüdische Leute and never will do nor use the words Yid, Kike and so on: people deserve respect and are given it. I do not know what you mean by Semitic Origin though there is a common mitochondrial dna thread that runs through all Jude. Being atheist I have probably less time for Christians than Juden; my best friends who are in the same political party as myself: sie sind jüdisch.
I find Christians totally corrupt due to raking billions of $ in on a total lie.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by BornAgainDisciple » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:53 pm

VFX wrote:there is a common mitochondrial dna thread that runs through all Jude.
It's not so black and white.
Some studies claim that even Hitler had this. Some even claim that he was a Rothschild.
Many of the ashkenazis (Germanic Jewish) don't share the darker features like stereotypical Jewish rabbis.
No, they are like Werner Goldberg - blond and blue eyed.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by VFX » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:58 pm

BornAgainDisciple wrote:
VFX wrote:there is a common mitochondrial dna thread that runs through all Jude.
It's not so black and white.
Some studies claim that even Hitler had this. Some even claim that he was a Rothschild.
Many of the ashkenazis (Germanic Jewish) don't share the darker features like stereotypical Jewish rabbis.
No, they are like Werner Goldberg - blond and blue eyed.
I have no issues with Jewish people. My best friends are in the same political party and Jewish: yes blue eyed and blond and so on. I have issues with any people who lack integrity.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:06 am

putting this post in the correct thread . . . and also linking to a new piece by Sergey Romanov at HC on John Ball's claims about Babi Yar
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:16 am

VFX wrote:
BornAgainDisciple wrote:
VFX wrote:there is a common mitochondrial dna thread that runs through all Jude.
It's not so black and white.
Some studies claim that even Hitler had this. Some even claim that he was a Rothschild.
Many of the ashkenazis (Germanic Jewish) don't share the darker features like stereotypical Jewish rabbis.
No, they are like Werner Goldberg - blond and blue eyed.
I have no issues with Jewish people. My best friends are in the same political party and Jewish: yes blue eyed and blond and so on. I have issues with any people who lack integrity.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:22 am

>"My best friends are in the same political party and Jewish"

Of course they are.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:21 am

VFX wrote: I have no issues with Jewish people. My best friends are in the same political party and Jewish: yes blue eyed and blond and so on. I have issues with any people who lack integrity.
You have been peddling vile canards about Russian Jews in every post of this thread.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:27 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
VFX wrote: I have no issues with Jewish people. My best friends are in the same political party and Jewish: yes blue eyed and blond and so on. I have issues with any people who lack integrity.
You have been peddling vile canards about Russian Jews in every post of this thread.
Well sure, the Ostjuden aren't the blond/blue type he finds acceptable... they're a little too Jewy-Jew to be acceptable in any way, shape or form.

I always wonder what these tossers' alleged Jew "best friends" really think of them... if they exist at all.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:18 pm

Jon Harrison looks more deeply into denier claims that the Einsatzgruppen targeted only partisans, saboteurs, and Communists in "Agreements Made Before Operation Barbarossa to Target 'Communists and Jews' in the Balkans and Occupied Eastern Poland".
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:04 am

"Juozas Aleksynas was born in Makrickai, Lithuania, in 1914. During World War II, he was a soldier in the Lithuanian 12th Self-Defense Battalion. While serving as an auxiliary to German forces, Aleksynas participated in several massacres of Jews in Belorussia in the autumn of 1941." Oral history interview - Credit: USHMM Collection, Witnesses, Collaborators, and Perpetrators: The Jeff and Toby Herr Testimony Initiative
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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