Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
User avatar
VFX
Regular Poster
Posts: 603
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:36 am
Location: Arctic

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:22 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Hardly. You will have to deal with a lot of evidence in this thread to the contrary. For starters . . .
VFX wrote:Tell me what you thing the Action Squads were for.

This is what I "thing" the "Action Squads" were for:
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 22#p474845
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 22#p474865
and from the Mass Graves thread: http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 80#p660179

The "think" is that you would know this if you could be arsed to read through the thread you're spamming.

You have no idea what the action squads were for. They were to eliminate terrorists from behind the army. These terrorist were sponsored by Stalin. As such, because they used women and children like ISIS do today they were treated as enemy combatants and dealt with by law.
Ich bereure nichts...

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23354
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: somewhere

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:23 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Off for morning tea and some more Kellner . . . maybe VFX will grow a pair whilst I'm away . . .



You might find a whole lotta
.

upon return. :lol:
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

User avatar
VFX
Regular Poster
Posts: 603
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:36 am
Location: Arctic

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:24 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Off for morning tea and some more Kellner . . . maybe VFX will grow a pair whilst I'm away . . .

Have a nice squat while you are away. So far you ain't doing so well on this forum
Ich bereure nichts...

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23354
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: somewhere

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:26 am

VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Off for morning tea and some more Kellner . . . maybe VFX will grow a pair whilst I'm away . . .

Have a nice squat while you are away. So far you ain't doing so well on this forum

:laff:
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 21996
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:31 am

Forgot this one, for anyone actually interested: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25822&p=510450&hilit=Pretzsch#p510450

Personally uninterested in VFX’s emotional problems any further.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
VFX
Regular Poster
Posts: 603
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:36 am
Location: Arctic

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:34 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Personally uninterested in VFX’s emotional problems any further.

I am not interested in your bladder problems either, nor anal retention... have a nice day.. talk soon. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Ich bereure nichts...

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 21996
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:47 am

We get VFX's attempt to equal the bathroom humor of 7-year-olds rather than even the most minimal effort to deal with, or refute what's in, these links, which provide general background on what I think the EGs were about:

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25822#p474845
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25822#p474865
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=28933&start=80#p660179
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26235&p=551320&hilit=pretzsch#p551320
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25822&p=510450&hilit=pretzsch#p510450
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
VFX
Regular Poster
Posts: 603
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:36 am
Location: Arctic

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby VFX » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:37 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:We get VFX's attempt to equal the bathroom humor of 7-year-olds rather than even the most minimal effort to deal with, or refute what's in, these links, which provide general background on what I think the EGs were about:

You were told they were dealing with terrorists behind the line. These terrorists like ISIS today consisted of Old men, Old Women, children. It happened that many of them were Jewish and agents of Stalin. They were ordered by Stalin to attack supply lines, cause disruption. No doubt innocent people got caught up in this mayhem but for the most part they were dealt with as spies and shot.
Ich bereure nichts...

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 21996
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:48 pm

VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:We get VFX's attempt to equal the bathroom humor of 7-year-olds rather than even the most minimal effort to deal with, or refute what's in, these links, which provide general background on what I think the EGs were about:

You were told they were dealing with terrorists behind the line. These terrorists like ISIS today consisted of Old men, Old Women, children. It happened that many of them were Jewish and agents of Stalin. They were ordered by Stalin to attack supply lines, cause disruption. No doubt innocent people got caught up in this mayhem but for the most part they were dealt with as spies and shot.

I proved that they were not primarily "dealing with terrorists behind the line." My being told something erroneous - and disproven over and over - doesn't deal with the arguments and evidence discussed in what I linked to or in Muehlenkamp's series.

Your mere assertion is chronologically and numerically challenged, it flies in the face of what the Ereignismeldungen and other German reports say, and it contradicts testimonies from EG officers and others. All of this is detailed throughout this thread, in what I linked you to, and in Muehlenkamp's series.

I didn't ask you to repeat your groundless claim but rather to deal with what I posted. Until you can bring yourself to read and respond to material in this thread and Muehlenkamp's series, your big mouth is simply making noise.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
VFX
Regular Poster
Posts: 603
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:36 am
Location: Arctic

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby VFX » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:12 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:We get VFX's attempt to equal the bathroom humor of 7-year-olds rather than even the most minimal effort to deal with, or refute what's in, these links, which provide general background on what I think the EGs were about:

You were told they were dealing with terrorists behind the line. These terrorists like ISIS today consisted of Old men, Old Women, children. It happened that many of them were Jewish and agents of Stalin. They were ordered by Stalin to attack supply lines, cause disruption. No doubt innocent people got caught up in this mayhem but for the most part they were dealt with as spies and shot.

I proved that they were not primarily "dealing with terrorists behind the line." My being told something erroneous - and disproven over and over - doesn't deal with the arguments and evidence discussed in what I linked to or in Muehlenkamp's series.

Your mere assertion is chronologically and numerically challenged, it flies in the face of what the Ereignismeldungen and other German reports say, and it contradicts testimonies from EG officers and others. All of this is detailed throughout this thread, in what I linked you to, and in Muehlenkamp's series.

I didn't ask you to repeat your groundless claim but rather to deal with what I posted. Until you can bring yourself to read and respond to material in this thread and Muehlenkamp's series, your big mouth is simply making noise.

Groundless, I gave links prior to this regarding Stalins orders to put the Partisans into action. When you are dealing with Stalin I doubt anything is groundless. You seem to think these Einzsatgruppen were playing with civilians. That is your own bias. Find the links and if necessary I will give a full run down and the true intent of the Action Squads, not your airy fairy boy scout crap.
Ich bereure nichts...

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 21996
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:28 pm

VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:We get VFX's attempt to equal the bathroom humor of 7-year-olds rather than even the most minimal effort to deal with, or refute what's in, these links, which provide general background on what I think the EGs were about:

You were told they were dealing with terrorists behind the line. These terrorists like ISIS today consisted of Old men, Old Women, children. It happened that many of them were Jewish and agents of Stalin. They were ordered by Stalin to attack supply lines, cause disruption. No doubt innocent people got caught up in this mayhem but for the most part they were dealt with as spies and shot.

I proved that they were not primarily "dealing with terrorists behind the line." My being told something erroneous - and disproven over and over - doesn't deal with the arguments and evidence discussed in what I linked to or in Muehlenkamp's series.

Your mere assertion is chronologically and numerically challenged, it flies in the face of what the Ereignismeldungen and other German reports say, and it contradicts testimonies from EG officers and others. All of this is detailed throughout this thread, in what I linked you to, and in Muehlenkamp's series.

I didn't ask you to repeat your groundless claim but rather to deal with what I posted. Until you can bring yourself to read and respond to material in this thread and Muehlenkamp's series, your big mouth is simply making noise.

Groundless, I gave links prior to this regarding Stalins orders to put the Partisans into action.

So what? The Einsatzgruppen were formed and given mission orders before Stalin's orders regarding partisans.

VFX wrote:When you are dealing with Stalin I doubt anything is groundless.

Your doubt is not relevant.

VFX wrote: seem to think these Einzsatgruppen were playing with civilians.

You seem to be saying that they were: "Old men, Old Women, children." Himmler for sure said they were. Here is one of the posts you've ignored:
Since these guys keep spouting denier cliches and cannot find a way to engage in the EG thread, let's lay out for folks here a bit of what the data say about Jews and partisans - and Jews and the German killing operations in the East:

NOTE 1. the %'s of victims of Einsatzgruppe B . . . posted by Hans in 2016:

Hans wrote:I'm certainly looking forward to Mattogno to explain this. Good luck, he will need it.

Death toll of Einsatzgruppe B:
Image

Breakdown of Einsatzgruppe B victims for 1941:

Image


[This matches fairly well with Jäger report, which deniers here describe as a forgery. Jäger report % of Jewish victims in operations of EK3 is actually in the high 90s.]

NOTE 2. A case from Lithuania

In April 1943, a report of the Chief of the Security Police and the Security Service in Lithuania to the Reich Security Head Office on the situation in Lithuania in April 1943 included item "7) Statistics about the activity of Dept IV in the General District of Lithuania for the period from January 1 to April 30, 1943." These statistics included data on the numbers of individuals subject during the period to arrest, search, imprisonment/confinement in a camp, or "special treatments" for various causes. The causes for action listed were

* Communism & Marxism
* Partisans & parachutists
* Russian POWs
* Sabotage & terrorism
* Resistance movement
* Jews
* Violation of decrees about … Jews
* Refusals to work
* Spreading of rumors & listening in to enemy broadcasts
* Political church
* Espionage
* Offenses committed by Germans

Of individual violators subjected to “special treatments,” the numbers were as follows:

* Jews - 4,230
* Partisans & parachutists - 32
* Communism & Marxism - 30
* Violation of decrees about … Jews - 1
* Refusals to work - 1
* Spreading of rumors & listening in to enemy broadcasts - 1

Note that the largest target of the action "special treatments" (execution) was "Jews." 98% of those killed were Jews, about 1% "partisans & parachutists," even in 1943. Why, if Jews were arrested and executed only as partisans as deniers have claimed, did the Security Police differentiate in the EG reports and such reports as the one described here between all other violations (including partisan activity, resistance, sabotage) and Jews?

(Documents Accuse, p 273)

NOTE 3. On partisans and the Jews . . .

On partisans in Belorussia and Ukraine:

- most Soviet partisan commanders did not welcome Jewish fighters; Dean quotes from one leader south of Baranovichi who dismissed Jews as cowards who'd given their valuables to the Germans and worked for them and only late in the war tried to save their skins by appealing to the partisans; would-be Jewish fighters could be simply rejected or even threatened with shooting; Jews without arms were generally sent packing

- Martin Dean quotes from a Soviet partisan leader near Slonim who argued that Jews didn't have the skills (firearms, military) to be of use - and, as Jews joined existing Soviet units to show "first of all that they did not go to the slaughter," they could be schooled and made into good fighters

- Dean gives the example of Jews who following the German liquidation of their ghetto, Nesvizh, in late spring 1942, approached an established partisan leader, this leader took under his protection some of the surviving Nesvizh Jews after they told him of the German murder action that had destroyed the ghetto, leaving them in hiding

- as was the case in the Baltics, many of the Jewish partisan units, Dean says of Belorussia and Ukraine, were more family camps maintained in the forests to protect Jews from further actions and from which some of the members attempted revenge actions; these were not effective military forces

- by late 1943 and into 1944 (well after the period under discussion - more than a year after the last EG report) some Jewish partisans in the region were able to join Soviet partisans in attacking transportation facilities

- the partisan units in Belorussia and Ukraine did not include many Jewish fighters, e.g., the "Stalin" brigade with 1,000 members in fall 1943 (located near Brest) had 3% Jews and 32% Russians, 38% Belorussians, and 10% Ukrainians; in the Nalibocki forest area, in contrast, by fall 1943 about 12% of the partisans were Jews (again, this total was reached well after the period we're debating about) - but there were many Jewish family camps in this area, boosting the % of Jews - overall, "there were some 370 000 Soviet partisans in Belorussia in 1944, of whom about 4 to 5 per cent (or 15 000) were Jews" - this is what deniers would have us believe constitutes a significant Jewish threat to Wehrmacht - and somehow explains the mass murder of over 100s of 1000s of Jews during 1941 and 1942! (Dean adds that in Volhynia, where there was less overall support for the Soviet partisans, therefore the Jewish % was higher - about 14% - but that Jewish participation elsewhere in Ukraine "was considerably lower")

- the "nucleus of growing Soviet partisan resistance from the summer of 1942 came from Soviet PoWs, who were driven into the forests by the threat of starvation or being shot"; only later, in 1943 and thereafter, did Jews surviving the 2nd wave of the German extermination actions (which wiped out Jewish communities throughout the region) augment these forces appreciably; there was a tendency in the region of Dean's study for Jews late in the war to be overrepresented by % of population in the partisan brigades - because very few Jews were left alive and a high % of few remaining survivors joined the brigades for revenge and/or defense purposes after their communities had been slaughtered by the Germans and only as a result of the mass killings - this is what deniers would have us believe represents Jewish originating of partisan warfare in the occupied USSR

- overall, according to Dean, membership in Soviet partisan units reflected more the makeup of the local population than anything but Russians were well represented generally

- in heavily Polish areas, the partisans themselves were often overly hostile to Jews; Dean cites a case where Polish underground reports referred to "Jewish-peasant gangs" as plunderers; the Polish units were also hostile to Soviet partisan brigades and cooperation between Polish and Russian units was "sporadic"

- the famous Jewish partisan Tuvia Bielski was denounced by the NKVD for helping his fighters avoid conscription into the Red Army as the Red Army advanced (Bielski simply disbanded his brigade so members could not be conscripted) - Bielski himself fled to Palestine

source, Martin Dean, Collaboration in the Holocaust: Crimes of the Local Police in Belorussia and Ukraine, 1941-44 pp 124-126, 141-143, 156, 165

You will notice that it deals with % of victims (who was targeted), the evolution of partisan warfare in the East, and the Jewish role in partisan warfare. Please provide comparable data and explanation for your mere assertions.

VFX wrote:That is your own bias.

No, it was what the evidence says, as you would know if you'd bothered to read the material you've been provided or the thread you're commenting in.

VFX wrote:Find the links and if necessary I will give a full run down and the true intent of the Action Squads, not your airy fairy boy scout crap.

Please, try to refute, with evidence, what I've linked you to and Muehlenkamp's series.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23354
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: somewhere

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:49 pm

:hmm: The user seems to prefer the Einzatzgruppen terrorists over airy fairy boy scouts, who prolly make him run and hide when they wear their uniforms. :lol:
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

User avatar
VFX
Regular Poster
Posts: 603
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:36 am
Location: Arctic

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby VFX » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:53 pm

scrmbldggs wrote: Einzatzgruppen terrorists

They were not the terrorist, these were the "good guys", the terrorists were the Partisans.
Ich bereure nichts...

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 21996
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:55 pm

more mere assertion; the more you post, the more you clarify why HD is thought of, even by neo-Nazis, as "strategic buffoonery"
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"


Return to “Holocaust Denial”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Balmoral95 and 1 guest