Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 11195
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:07 am

Xcalibur wrote:Is it wrong I find this totally comedic?

No, it is hilarious. Monstrous gets almost nothing right and always, always winds up speculating how his cock-eyed notions could under some set of absurd and far-fetched premises maybe have a shred of validity. All said with smug self-certainty. That's entertainment!
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Jeff_36
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3757
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:17 am

Xcalibur wrote:Is it wrong I find this totally comedic? I mean Monstrous...

This reminds me years ago of a sad little Malaysian chap at AHF who was a slightly older than adolescent Waffen-SS fanboy.... He decided at some point to venture into the HD realm and had managed to research his foray by reading 5 Irving books and two by Anthony Beevor (Stalingrad and Berlin), which he used as proof for every absolutely ridiculous post he made... needless to say his posting career there enjoyed a somewhat "mixed" career.

It's sad... but sometimes comedic.


Panzermahn was his name and he personifies everything I hate about AHF. It's full of people who wish they could blow Otto Skorzeney.

User avatar
NathanC
Poster
Posts: 442
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:19 am

Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby NathanC » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:22 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:So, regarding the discovery of the EG reports we are supposed to trust the story of this Benjamin Ferencz character and possibly Telford Taylor, another problematic Nuremberg figure?


No Nuremberg figure is problematic, except for the hangman, who was rather problematic for Nazi necks. We are not expected to trust Ferencz, but rather the German clerks of the Office of the Chief Counsel for War Crimes who delivered the documents to him, the staff that examined them, and the American soldiers who found them in the first place. And trust them we do.


Ferencz is problematic...for the Deniers and the fantasy they're trying to build. He did cite isolated cases of Former DPs taking revenge on the people who put them through hell, but on the whole, he has admitted that there was no hoax or concentrated attempt on the American side to "fabricate" the Holocaust or frame the Germans. In an interview shared by no less than the Black Rabbit, Ferencz admitted that a lot of Einsatzgruppen suspects slipped through the cracks, and that out of about a thousand suspects, he was only able to bring indictments against 22 and that the rest were never tried.This is the opposite of the "hoax" and fits the pattern established by the US's official foreign policy documents, that of loosening the requirements for Denazification and delegating more and more to German courts.

Ferencz admitted that the "Hoax" never happened, and that even though he had a position in the US government, neither he nor most of his fellow Jews "Ruled" it or were in any position to carry out the "hoaxing" Monstrous alleges. That's why he's a problem for them.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 11195
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:05 pm

Earl points out that 84 men - out of the approximately 3,000 who served in the EGs - served as commanders of the EGs or their EKs and SKs. Just more than 1/4 of the leaders were indicted by the prosecution at Nuremberg. Ferencz later said that 24 were indicted because the courtrooms at the prosecution's disposal could not accommodate more defendants! (Earl, p 81) Which commanders were indicted, it turns out, depended on, of course, their availability and what was in the EG reports. The latter dependency was, again, part of the prosecution strategy of relying mainly on the reports which the defendants had helped prepare, rather than on affidavits or testimony of the defendants (the prosecution case included among the 253 exhibits affidavits although it relied on the reports). Ferencz said that he called no witnesses (except the two mentioned below) because the documentary evidence in the reports was so strong. (Earl, pp 80, 179)

As to the claim that the defendants were induced to provide testimony in return for leniency, the first consideration is that the prosecution case relied on the EG reports themselves, not witness testimony. The prosecution supplemented the report excerpts submitted with affidavits of the defendants; the opposite criticism can be made about the interrogations and affidavits - that in a time when Miranda rights didn't exist, and where each defendant did not have counsel, the defendants spoke too much and too freely, from a defense point of view, incriminating themselves rather than winning prosecution favor and leniency. OTOH Musmanno took the charges against the men as so “grave” (Earl’s word) that he instituted the famous Penguin Rule for the trial - ruling admissible even the mating habits of Antarctic penguins if that would help the defendants. For this, defense counsel presented Musmanno a statue of a penguin at the conclusion of the trial - and Ferencz complained bitterly that the judge had accorded the defense too much leeway. As with any trial, and especially a trial under exceptional conditions, there are pluses and minuses in terms of fairness, protection of rights of defendants, etc in the EG trial; interestingly, however, the criticisms of the EG trial run directly the opposite to what's been claimed here, namely, in the real world two of the major criticisms of the trial are 1) that the pre-trial proceedings led the defendants to make self-incriminating statements, on the one hand, and 2) that the judge bent rules of evidence too far on behalf of the defense during trial, on the other.

Interesting in this regard, too, was Taylor's reaction to Ferencz when Ferencz flew from Berlin to Nuremberg to show him samples of the reports his unit had found. "Taylor acknowledged [the reports'] value but informed the young attorney that, unfortunately, there was not enough staff, time or money to conduct trials other than those already planned." (Earl, p 79) This reaction conformed to a memo which Taylor had sent on 14 March 1947, that the Ohlendorf trial (and 2 others focusing on SS men) wouldn't be necessary. Earl can only guess at what changed Taylor's mind - she assumes both Ferencz's advocacy and the strength of the evidence his unit had found.

To clarify an earlier point, the prosecution did call two witnesses - an interrogator for the OCCWC and an officer of the French navy medical corps; both relied on the documents submitted in their testimony. (Earl, pp 179-180) However, because the defense called defendants to the stand to testify on their own behalf, by far most of the trial time was taken up with their examination and cross-examination (Earl, p 179) - including direct questioning by Musmanno, which was permissible under the rules of the NMT proceedings. The testimony was not helpful to the defendants - I've posted some egregious examples earlier in this thread.

Under the terms of the Moscow Agreement (and CC Law No. 10), Taylor insisted that Ferencz contact the Soviet authorities regarding an NMT trial of Germans for crimes committed exclusively on Soviet territory. Ferencz wrote thus to Colonel General Serov to request his assistance in the trial. The memo was augmented by an in-person meeting between OCCWC staffer Burin and and Soviet investigators in Berlin, during March 1947, at a time when a trial against the EG leaders was not at all a certainty. The Soviets showed interest initially, but Major Prishchepenko told the US representative the USSR-US collaboration on trials had broken down some time ago and thus the Soviets might well want to try the EG leaders themselves.

After this round of discussions, the Soviets apparently made no other contact with the Americans - not about concerns about the US-led trial, not to organize a Soviet trial, and not to assist the US prosecution. There were simply no further contacts between the Soviets and US on the EG trial. No EG commanders were turned over for trial by the Soviets, none were extradited. The documentary evidence shows that at the time the Soviets simply lost interest in trying the EG leaders and in the US proceedings. (Earl pp 80-81)

As to availability of commanders, Earl states that enough leaders were in American or British custody to proceed without Soviet cooperation, which had broken down with the end of the IMT. "After the feelers to the Soviets came to naught, it took only four months to put the case against the Einsatzgruppen leaders together." (Earl, p 81)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 11195
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:05 pm

Further to the evidence and testimony in the EG case, from, as noted above, the NMT series (Green series, vol IV, p 4):
The English transcript of the Court proceedings runs to 6,895 mimeographed pages. The prosecution introduced into evidence 253 written exhibits (some of which contained several docu­ments), and the defense 731 written exhibits. The Tribunal heard oral testimony of one prosecution witness (Francois Bayle, Com­mander, Medical Corps of the French Navy) who was called as a handwriting expert during the prosecution's rebuttal case. The Tribunal heard oral testimony of 18 witnesses, not including the defendants called by the defense. However, some of the witnesses called by the defense had given affidavits which were introduced as a part of the prosecution's case in chief, and in some cases, these witnesses were examined about these affidavits by the de­fense. Each of the 23 defendants who stood trial testified in his own behalf, except the defendant Rasch who was unable to com­plete his testimony for reasons of health and whose case was severed from of the other defendants. Rasch died in prison on 1 November 1948. Each of the defendants who testified was subject to examination on behalf of other defendants. The ex­hibits offered by both prosecution and defense contained docu­ments, photographs, affidavits, letters, maps, charts, and other written evidence. The prosecution introduced 48 affidavits, 34 of which were affidavits given by the defendants prior to their indictment. The defense introduced 549 affidavits. The prosecu­tion called 3 of the defense affiants for cross-examination. In addition to examining the defendants who gave affidavits prior to their indictment, the defense called one affiant for cross-exami­nation. The case-in-chief of the prosecution took 2 court days and the case for the 23 defendants took 136 court days. The Tribunal was in recess between 30 September and 6 October 1947 to give the defense additional time to prepare its case.

I am unable to find precisely what the other prosecution witness, Wartenberg (an interrogator), testified to; Earl says that his testimony was heard during the prosecution's case and that thus, in contrast to the above summary, two prosecution witnesses were called. The testimonies of both Bayle and Wartenberg were brief given that the prosecution's case took just two days.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
NathanC
Poster
Posts: 442
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:19 am

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby NathanC » Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:09 pm

Interesting, thanks for sharing.

Monstrous is really reaching a new low of Stupidity by insisting that the USSR "planted" evidence for the Americans to "find" in the late 40s. In the other thread, dumbass Monstrous tried to downplay "do not divide the dead" by saying that it was only in Stalin's era. The second half of the 40s was still Stalin's era, so he's now backtracking and contradicting himself in this thread. Pathetic.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 11195
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:18 pm

NathanC wrote:Interesting, thanks for sharing.

Monstrous is really reaching a new low of Stupidity by insisting that the USSR "planted" evidence for the Americans to "find" in the late 40s. In the other thread, dumbass Monstrous tried to downplay "do not divide the dead" by saying that it was only in Stalin's era. The second half of the 40s was still Stalin's era, so he's now backtracking and contradicting himself in this thread. Pathetic.

Doubly dumb-ass because the discovery of the EG reports was not guaranteed, or all that likely, during the brief period when the NMT trials were being prepared - rather, the discovery was fortuitous. Nor was the US team's analysis of the documents certain to occur at the time of their discovery.

Fabricating evidence, then hiding it among 1600 tons of documents is a rather peculiar and far-fetched "smear" strategy. But that's what Monstrous has left himself with, although he has no evidence for even this dumb-ass speculation.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 11195
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:33 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:30 July 1941: Himmler visit to Baranovichi, order “All Jews must be shot. Jewish women to be driven into the marshes” (Pripet) (written order supplementing oral orders of the period, to SS Calvary Brigade) (note: "all Jews" - men - in keeping with expansive early verbiage but clarifying the upper limit)

More on this Himmler order and the subsequent extermination actions, first detail on the July-August 1941 chain of events, from Jürgen Matthäus - Controlled Escalation: Himmler’s Men in the Summer of 1941 and the Holocaust in the Occupied Soviet Territories, Holocaust and Genocide Studies 21, no. 2 (Fall 2007): 218–242:
Between July 29 and 31, Himmler visited Kaunas in Lithuania and Riga in Latvia. We do not know what he discussed there, but it seems that he instantly grasped the significance of the lesson learned in the Baltics for his units farther south. On July 31, Himmler met with Bach-Zelewski and Fegelein in Baranovici to monitor the units under their command and to urge them to perform more violently. As a result, Fegelein reminded the officers of his 1st SS-Brigade of the message that Himmler wanted them to take to heart; namely, that only “uncompromising severity, drastic action, and holding fast to the great ideas of the Führer” would ensure victory. The Reichsführer would judge ruthlessly anyone showing weakness or breaking rank.

Himmler’s advice created a ripple effect, at least in parts of the Kommandostab hierarchy. In the early evening of August 1, the commander of the Mounted Unit of the 1st SS Cavalry Regiment, Gustav Lombard, ordered: “Not one male Jew is to remain alive, not one remnant family in the villages.” Although no order was issued calling for Jewish women and children to be killed, word spread. In the days following, Lombard reported that his unit had taken a new course of action: the “de-Jewification” (Entjudung) of several towns and villages. All Jews, including women and children, were murdered. As in Lithuania, the murderers had adopted the more efficient killing practice of shooting victims with automatic weapons. By August 11, the riders of the 1st SS Cavalry Regiment had killed at least 11,000 Jewish men, women, and children—on average 1,000 per day, partly in remote villages, over a period of eleven days.

. . . Lombard’s extension of the mass killings to women and children as part of his “de-Jewification” strategy had not been prompted by an explicit order. Farther south, however, the picture looked different. The commander of the 2nd SS Cavalry Regiment’s Mounted Unit, Franz Magill, had received what looked like clear-cut directives. On the morning of August 1, the regiment passed on to its units the following stunning communication: “Explicit order by RF-SS. All [male] Jews must be shot. [Adult] female Jews to be driven into the swamps.”

There was no lack of clarity here, yet the order resulted in confusion. In a report dated August 12, Magill explained why he had not done as he had been ordered: the target group for execution had been restricted to what he called “Jewish plunderers,” while skilled Jewish laborers were exempted according to the Wehrmacht’s demand. Magill continued: “Driving women and children into the swamps did not have the success it was supposed to have as the swamps were not deep enough for sinking to occur. After a depth of one meter one for the most part hit firm ground so that sinking was not possible.” Clearly, Magill took a literal approach to Himmler’s order, except that he extended its scope to involve Jewish children. He did not get it quite right, though he proved himself to be more adaptable to the circumstances when instructed by Himmler’s deputy in the region. On August 6, Bach-Zelewski visited Magill’s unit during the execution of 6,000 Jewish men in the city of Pinsk; over the next few days, the scope of murder was expanded to include older men and boys, but stopped short of including Jewish women and children before the unit was relocated on August 9. In these three days, Magill’s men collaborated with others in the killing of more than 9,000 Jews in Pinsk. Those who remained alive—roughly 20,000 people—were targeted a year later in another killing sweep.

August 13 marked the end of the first massive German descent on the Pripet, with 13,788 reported “plunderers”—predominantly Jews—shot and 714 people taken prisoner. The Kommandostab’s cooperation with the security police and SD as well as with the Wehrmacht could not have been better. Military commanders from the Rear Army Areas Center and South applauded the actions of Himmler’s men and awarded decorations. While the most deadly killers received praise, those who in Himmler’s eyes had shown a lack of resolve and adaptability felt the brunt of the Reichsführer’s displeasure. Gustav Lombard was promoted to commander of the 1st SS Cavalry Regiment; Franz Magill, on the other hand, was assigned to a less prominent position in Poland. . . .

There would be a second large action in Pinsk, not mentioned in my earlier post as it fell outside the time period under examination. The second Pinsk action took place in October 1942 and is described by Tikva Fatal-Knaani, The Jews of Pinsk, 1939-1943, Through the Prism of New Documentation, Yad Vashem Studies, Vol. 29, Jerusalem, 2001, pp. 149-182:
The Pinsk ghetto was the last ghetto to be destroyed within the sphere of operations of the RSHA (Reichssicherheitshauptamt—Reich Security Main Office) branch in Pinsk. On October 27, 1942, Himmler ordered Hans-Adolf Prützman, the HSSPF (Höhere SS und Polizeiführer-senoir SS and police commander) in the district, to liquidate the ghetto:
Military command headquarters informs me that the Brest–Gomel line is increasingly susceptible to attacks by gangs, thus disrupting supplies to the fighting forces. On the basis of the notices placed before me, the Pinsk ghetto should be regarded as the center of the gangs’ activity in the Pripet Marshes. Therefore, I instruct you to liquidate and destroy the ghetto in Pinsk at once, even though there are economic considerations against doing so. If the Aktion makes it possible, set aside [among the ghetto population] a force of 1,000 male workers and make them available to the army for the construction of wooden shelters. However, these 1,000 laborers should be put to work only in a closed and carefully guarded camp. If such guarding cannot be assured, they too should be exterminated.

Since the liquidation of the ghetto had been planned for some time, Gebietskommissar Klein had made the necessary preparations. Ackerman, a member of the Gebietskommissariat staff, ordered local residents and civilian prisoners to dig seven pits at an abandoned airport about 3 kilometers from Pinsk. All available SD men from the branch offices in the area were brought to Pinsk, and all police units stationed in the vicinity of Pinsk were gathered, insofar as their services elsewhere were dispensable.

On the morning of October 29, after a briefing, the police units surrounded the ghetto in accordance with the order. At 6:30 the Jews were ordered to gather near the Jewish cemetery. Most of them obeyed without resistance. The police units and the local militia combed every building for Jews who had stayed behind. At the gathering point, about 400 Jewish workers were set aside for subsequent employment at the plywood factory, the match factory, and other workshops. The others were ordered to turn over their valuables and were led in files, guarded by police units, to the firing pits. About 10,000 people were murdered that day.

The cavalrymen were stationed about 1 kilometer away on both sides of the road along which the Jews were led and deployed around the site of the execution at the same distance. Their task was to capture escaping Jews. Members of Police Battalion 310 blocked access to the killing site.

On October 30–31 and November 1, the ghetto was combed again in order to flush out concealed Jews. With the help of tracking dogs, such Jews were driven out of their hiding places. Hand grenades were used to break into some of the hideouts. Ill Jews and young children whose mothers had had to leave them behind were shot in the ghetto. SD men killed the patients in the Jewish hospital at that time; they shot ambulatory patients in a shack nearby after having hurled bedridden patients out of the hospital windows. To bury the corpses of the Jews who had been shot in the ghetto, 200 of the selected Jewish workers were ordered to dig two pits near the Jewish cemetery. These workers were summarily shot after they had completed their task. Jews who had gone into hiding under the floor of the contagious diseases hospital were also shot and were buried in the pits. Killings of Jews en route to the pits also took place. Jews who collapsed on the way were shot.

After the extermination Aktion, only 143 craftsmen remained alive. They were housed in two buildings in the so-called “small ghetto” and worked as tailors, shoemakers, and printing workers. On December 23, 1942, this remnant of the ghetto was also obliterated. The Jewish community of Pinsk no longer existed. . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 11195
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:48 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:. . . We've already shown - thanks to Hans and certain German reports - that Jews made up about 88% of EG-B's victims and 98% of those of EK-3. But I just came across a relevant, analogous point in Goldstein & Goldstein, The Holocaust in Croatia. . . .

Data on victims of Einsatzgruppen A, which included EK-3, from The Tragedy in Lithuania: 1941-1944 New Documents on Lithuanian Collaborators During the Second World War (2008). This is from a German document found in former Soviet archives; the document is in "Russian State Military Archive Fond 500-k List 4 File 92, Pages 174. . . . Translation from German." The document was first published more than 60 years after the war.

Document 27: "RECORD ON THE NUMBER OF EXECUTIONS COMMITTED BY TASK GROUP 'A' AS OF FEBRUARY, 1942"

%'s calculated from raw data in Document 27:

Jews 93%
Lithuanian frontier troops 2.3%
Communists 3.5%
Partisans 0.4%
Mental patients 0.7%
Others 0.1%

Monstrous claims that documents like these must have been fabricated. In this case, that means that he wants us to believe that the Soviets fictionalized that EG-A killed 223,550 Jews as opposed to only 8,359 Communists. That is, Monstrousc claims, with a straight face, that the Soviet authorities tried to make it appear that the Germans killed more than 26x as many Jews as loyal Communists in the area of Einsatzgruppe A - because, presumably, the Communist authorities wanted to downplay German atrocities against their comrades in the Communist Party but make up German atrocities against local Jews!

And then hide their handiwork for six decades.

Seriously. That's what Monstrous wants us to accept.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 11195
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:23 pm

Monstrous wrote:To repeat again, some witness reporting seeing a few persons being shot and buried is not controversial. Everyone accepts that such killings occurred. The interesting parts is where there are allegations of large scale genocidal killings. SM's collection is an indiscriminate collection which may or may not contain some such interesting parts. If there are any, except the EG reports, please tell.

I know that Monstrous and Mary Q Contrary have a special focus on and interest in mass graves in the occupied East from WWII. Both of them, each in his/her own manner, has assured us that information we possess about the mass executions of Jews during the war come only from witnesses and forged documents, not from physical study of claimed murder sites (such as excavations, medical examination of corpses, etc). This assurance is repeated despite our posting references to physical examination of the sites/graves at Ponar and other places.

To shift from Ponar, which Monstrous and Mary Q have avoided discussing for months now, one area in Lithuania in which mass graves have been excavated and subjected to study, shortly after the retreat of the German occupying authorities and forces, is the town of Žagare. From the same document collection mentioned in my post just above (from The Tragedy in Lithuania: 1941-1944 New Documents on Lithuanian Collaborators During the Second World War 2008) we can find the following reports:

doc 13. REPORT OF THE MEDICO-LEGAL EXAMINATION
OF THE MASS GRAVE IN THE VICINITY OF THE TOWN OF ŽAGARE September 24, 1944 submitted by Assistant chief medico-legal expert of the 1st Baltic front, captain of medical service I PRIKHODKO; Medico-legal expert of the 51st army, captain of medical service FILYAKOV
doc 14. REPORT OF MEDICO-LEGAL VISUAL EXAMINATION OF THE SITE OF THE MASS GRAVE IN THE VICINITY OF ŽAGARE September 24, 1944 submitted by Assistant chief medico-legal expert of the 1st Baltic front, captain of medical service I PRIKHODKO; Medico-legal expert of the 51st army, captain of medical service FILYAKOV
doc 16. ACT ON CRIMES OF FASCIST AGGRESSORS AND THEIR ACCOMPLICES IN THE VICINITY OF THE CITY OF ŽAGARE October 5, 1944 submitted by Chairman of the Commission I Military Public Prosecutor 8 PAVKD
doc 17. SPECIAL REPORT ON MASS EXECUTIONS IN THE CITY OF ŽAGARE Top secret October 6, 1944; in addition to ours 20175/2

These 4 documents provide description of what investigators found following excavation of three mass graves (and examination of the remains discovered in these graves).

I know that Monstrous and Mary Q Contrary are well familiar with these reports, since they are of the sort which both these forensic scientists have dismissed. For others, however, the following should be noted, of the three mass graves (one large, two small) studied:

- “The examination of corpses established that the destruction of Soviet civilians was carried out by execution from firearms, rifles, pistols, and submachine guns”
- from the large grave, a total of 2,402 corpses . . . exhumed, among them: 20 . . . corpses were subjected to full medico-legal examination, 2,382 corpses . . . were subjected to medical-legal visual examination”; corpses were also extracted and examined from the smaller graves
- “All the corpses, except for five Lithuanians, are Jewish”.

The final report (doc 17) notes the exhumation of 2,448 corpses. The corpses examined were reported to be

Corpses of men - 574

Corpses of women - 1,225
Corpses of children under 15 - 675
Corpses of babies - 24

Arithmetic was not the strong suit of those compiling doc 17 as their tally adds to 2,498, not 2,448, which means that they summed to less than the total - or made errors in the breakdown of corpses by sex and age. Earlier reports gave slightly varying totals (e.g., doc 16 has from grave 1 - 530 men, 1,223 women, and 625 children, thus "2,403 corpses were extracted" the total being off by 1, not 50 in this case; from grave 2 - "38 male corpses"; and from grave 3 - 8 corpses for a total of 2,424. And so on.)

I know that the Soviet investigators carried out their studies quickly (in the case of Žagare in a matter of days); Soviet political objectives clouded findings of the SEC in many cases (especially with regard to confessions); and the reports themselves contain errors, of the kind noted above. In my view use of the Soviet reports must be done with care and with a critical attitude.

In that spirit, I am asking Monstrous and Mary Q Contrary to share with us the results of their study of German actions during the occupation of Žagare in summer-fall 1941 and especially in this context their critical-scientific conclusions with regard to the aforementioned reports on the physical examination of the three Žagare mass graves along with their analysis of the shortcomings, misstatements and errors in the Soviet reports.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 11195
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:51 pm

Hey Monstrous & Mary Q - need some more help with another site, documentation also from The Tragedy in Lithuania: 1941-1944 New Documents on Lithuanian Collaborators During the Second World War 2008. Docs 46 & 52 are Soviet reports on the inspection of mass graves at "Ilokiai."

Again, as I know you will have studied the documents concerning this site, and the claimed action, if not visited the site itself, I will summarize briefly for other readers:

In doc 52 (doc 52 ACT ON CRIMES AND ATROCITIES OF FASCIST AGGRESSORS AND THEIR ACCOMPLICES IN THE ILOKIAI BOROUGH, THE MEŽEIKIAI UYEZD, THE LITHUANIAN SSR October 18-19 1944) in particular we are told that, following interrogations, the investigative commission examined three mass graves where witnesses had told that the town of Ilokiai’s Jews had been buried after being shot. In the three graves were reported to be

- grave 1: “300 disorderly dumped corpses of men, women, and children in 4 layers” and without shoes and mostly undressed
- grave 2: “about 100 corpses”; “disorderly dumped corpses of men, women and children”
- grave 3: “3 corpses of men”

Again we confront a maths problem as the report says “So, in total, up to 475 corpses were revealed in the graves.” 47 of the corpses were examined; “all of the corpses have gunshot wounds in the top areas of the body, many corpses have several wounds, that evidences that the execution was carried out from small and automatic weapon.”

Please tell us about your study of the documentation and the site so that we can understand better your wholesale dismissal of the Soviet reports.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Jeff_36
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3757
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:58 am

I sense that Monstrous, baffled by these "looong complicated wooords" will vanish for a few months before starting a thread on some other nonsense replete with links from Neo-Nazi websites.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3840
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:02 am

I sense that David has done the same.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 11195
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:29 pm

Apologies for the wordiness but I wanted to be clear about the sources, about some of the issues, and about my request. I feel sure they will reply as the last two posts concern what they've identified as the most important evidence and their field of expertise.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 11195
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:14 pm

Well, this is moving along rather slowly at this point. Anyone got any beers or good stories or anecdotes to share? Family vacation photos on Instagram? Cute puppy GIFs? Hitler cat pix? Recommendations for where to get good coffee?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3840
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:37 pm

Well, it was a good National Championship Game last night. Clemson won.

User avatar
Monstrous
Regular Poster
Posts: 745
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:05 pm

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Monstrous » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:45 pm

So much written about little Monstrous! It is clear that Monstrous is seen as a big, big threat!

Monstrous has been doing research and found this!
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Sefton_Delmer

So the UK was also involved! This has made Monstrous see things more clearly.

The EG trial forgers may not have worked with the Soviets. But with the UK!

So, with one fell stroke Monstrous has invalidated the argument of cooperation with the Soviets being unlikely!

It was the Western Allies who may have created the forged EG reports!

User avatar
Monstrous
Regular Poster
Posts: 745
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:05 pm

Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Monstrous » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:49 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:[...parroting Soviet propaganda... ...parroting Soviet propaganda... ...parroting Soviet propaganda...]

Seriously? SM? What does SM stands for?

StalinMania?

User avatar
Monstrous
Regular Poster
Posts: 745
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:05 pm

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Monstrous » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:58 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:Monstrous has been to the cinema!

And watched this:
https://archive.org/details/VincentReyn ... eMensonges

So, the EG numbers according to the EG reports are much smaller than usually stated! There was no genocidal plan!

Not germane. The question you were asked is not whether there was a genocidal plan, whatever you mean by that, but to provide evidence for and an explanation of how the Soviets forged the Einsatzgruppen reports.

Stop trying to change the subject. If you cannot answer what you were asked, have the decency just to admit it.

Still no reply at all to the movie that Monstrous went to the trouble to watch!

Veni, vidi, vici!

Monstrous, still alone on the battlefield after the no-show victory!

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1529
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Denying-History » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:11 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:Monstrous has been to the cinema!

And watched this:
https://archive.org/details/VincentReyn ... eMensonges

So, the EG numbers according to the EG reports are much smaller than usually stated! There was no genocidal plan!

Not germane. The question you were asked is not whether there was a genocidal plan, whatever you mean by that, but to provide evidence for and an explanation of how the Soviets forged the Einsatzgruppen reports.

Stop trying to change the subject. If you cannot answer what you were asked, have the decency just to admit it.

Still no reply at all to the movie that Monstrous went to the trouble to watch!

Veni, vidi, vici!

Monstrous, still alone on the battlefield after the no-show victory!


If you call attempting to change the subject a "victory" then sure... If you call that a victory then you are a complete crank.

Now maybe after your "no-show victory" you can respond to SM.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
- James Mace

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 11195
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:15 pm

Monstrous wrote:So much written about little Monstrous! It is clear that Monstrous is seen as a big, big threat!

What's written above is about the Einsatzgruppen. Only about you to the extent that you misrepresent and lie, along with Mary Q.

Monstrous wrote:Monstrous has been doing research and found this!
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Sefton_Delmer

That's not research - that's googling to find something that you think might help you out of your predicament.

Monstrous wrote:So the UK was also involved! This has made Monstrous see things more clearly.

The EG trial forgers may not have worked with the Soviets. But with the UK!


Are you now changing your story and claiming that the British forged the Einsatzgruppen reports, which were in American custody? And basing this claim on a Metapedia article that never mentions the Einsatzgruppen or the extermination of Jews? Is that your new ploy?

The 2 things you're making clear are how little you know and have to support your claims and how desperate you've become.

Monstrous wrote:So, with one fell stroke Monstrous has invalidated the argument of cooperation with the Soviets being unlikely!

I don't know how to break this to you but that argument was "invalidated" in the very first week's discussion of the OP.

Monstrous wrote:It was the Western Allies who may have created the forged EG reports!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Make it up as you go along . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 11195
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:18 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:[...parroting Soviet propaganda... ...parroting Soviet propaganda... ...parroting Soviet propaganda...]

Seriously? SM? What does SM stands for?

StalinMania?

So you can't refute what I posted? Really? This is your area of expertise, you've implied, should be easy for you . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 11195
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:19 pm

Denying-History wrote:Now maybe after your "no-show victory" you can respond to SM.

He's got nothing. He's now onto the Brits! LOL
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1529
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Denying-History » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:21 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Now maybe after your "no-show victory" you can respond to SM.

He's got nothing. He's now onto the Brits! LOL

Lol of course, if Metapedia doesn't say what he claims he just has to use the Big Lie platform of the Nazis.

I wonder what's next? The jäger report ended up being a Soviet forgery in the eyes of Monsterous.
Last edited by Denying-History on Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
- James Mace

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 11195
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:23 pm

Please tell us, Monstrous, since you clearly don't wish to discuss your bereft theories about the EG trial any longer, what errors and fabrications there were in the Soviet reports on excavations of, and study of corpses found in, mass graves at Žagare and Ilokiai.

No, acknowledging, as I have of course, that these were Soviet reports isn't a discussion of the errors and fabrications in physical studies you claim don't even exist.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 11195
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:26 pm

30 July 2015:
Monstrous wrote:. . . Monstrous fails to see the alleged problem. The EG reports, the summaries, and the circulation list were likely all forged. There were some real EG reports and summaries but these were likely intended only for a small circle - those directly involved in the anti-partisan warfare and higher officials like Himmler. . . .

The obvious explanation is, of course, that the Soviets forged the documents. . . .

Today:
Monstrous wrote:So, with one fell stroke Monstrous has invalidated the argument of cooperation with the Soviets being unlikely!

It was the Western Allies who may have created the forged EG reports!

{!#%@} doesn't even begin to get at the problem with this one . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Monstrous
Regular Poster
Posts: 745
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:05 pm

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Monstrous » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:39 pm

It is all very simple.

Sefton Delmer forged war crimes documents. The EG trial is a war crimes trial with forged war crimes documents.

Then you mix in the Jewish EG prosecutor Benjamin "Does that make me an accomplice to murder?" Ferencz...

Spice with EG commander witnesses know to have lied and conspired, admitted even by the Believers...

What do you get then form the mixture?

Something very toxic for the Believers...

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 11195
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:57 pm

Monstrous wrote:It is all very simple.

Simple-minded. And daft.

Monstrous wrote:Sefton Delmer forged war crimes documents. The EG trial is a war crimes trial with forged war crimes documents.

I thought he did black propaganda, especially radio broadcasts, but no matter. You haven't connected Delmer to the EGs or to the EG reports. Even you know you need to - and that you've failed again.

Monstrous wrote:Then you mix in the Jewish EG prosecutor Benjamin "Does that make me an accomplice to murder?" Ferencz...

Do you have a tattoo on your forehead that reads "I am an Anti-Semite," or do you prefer keeping this amongst us friends here?

Monstrous wrote:Spice with EG commander witnesses know to have lied and conspired, admitted even by the Believers...

I have no idea what you're referring to. If you mean your speculation about the EG trial, every one of your claims and notions and leaps and somersautls has been refuted.

Monstrous wrote:What do you get then form the mixture?

Gobbledygook and gibberish.

Monstrous wrote:Something very toxic for the Believers...

Assuming I'm a "Believer," why then am I enjoying this latest CT of yours so much? It's a laugh riot.

Anyway, a serious question, since you seem to plan to ignore the forensic issue, are you good at anything? Can you cook? Do you have the skill to repair computers? Are you able to hold a job? Can you say words backwards? 'cuz you suck at this, but we all hope that in some part of your life, if you don't shine, you at least don't make a fool and spectacle of yourself. Seriously. This is pathetic - I mean, it's funny to watch you twist and turn and spin up sillier and sillier ideas, but it's also kind of horrifying to watch someone so utterly incompetent at work.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Monstrous
Regular Poster
Posts: 745
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:05 pm

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Monstrous » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:05 pm

Monstrous knows more about the EG trial than SM.

Monstrous knows that Benjamin Ferencz said "Does that make me an accomplice to murder?" in an interview.

Monstrous knows that EG commanders are by Believers now thought to have lied about superior orders.

Monstrous knows better.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3840
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:09 pm

Monstrous wrote:It is all very simple.

Sefton Delmer forged war crimes documents. The EG trial is a war crimes trial with forged war crimes documents.

Then you mix in the Jewish EG prosecutor Benjamin "Does that make me an accomplice to murder?" Ferencz...

Spice with EG commander witnesses know to have lied and conspired, admitted even by the Believers...

What do you get then form the mixture?

Something very toxic for the Believers...


:lol:

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1529
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Denying-History » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:11 pm

Sometimes I wonder what drugs Monsterous is on... It seems they have a strong effect.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
- James Mace

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 11195
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:16 pm

Monstrous wrote:Monstrous knows more about the EG trial than SM.

You're reduded to waving pom-poms and kicking up your heels to cheer yourself on.

Monstrous wrote:Monstrous knows that Benjamin Ferencz said "Does that make me an accomplice to murder?" in an interview.

Well golly, you know something well-known - and which was not part of the EG trials.

Monstrous wrote:Monstrous knows that EG commanders are by Believers now thought to have lied about superior orders.

Monstrous knows better.

You may well know more than I do about the EG trials - how should I know? OTOH you've apparently decided to keep it hidden, however, and to restrict your comments to lying, cherrypicking, and wild speculation.

And, for the umpteenth time, no one in this thread has ever claimed that the EG defendants didn't lie and distort in their testimony. It's part of the record, and I for one have posted about some of the more important misstatements the defendants made and said what I make of such dishonesty. So what if these men were dishonest?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 11195
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:18 pm

Everyone can see the lengths which Monstrous is going to in order to avoid having to say a single word about the forensic reports about mass graves of Lithuanian Jews which I cited and which he has long assured us do not exist.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
NathanC
Poster
Posts: 442
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:19 am

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby NathanC » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:07 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:Monstrous knows that Benjamin Ferencz said "Does that make me an accomplice to murder?" in an interview.

Well golly, you know something well-known - and which was not part of the EG trials.



Monstrous's quote is out of context, par for the course. This is the same interview where Ferencz admitted that there was no hoax on the American side. He mentions that most Einsatzgruppen suspects slipped through the cracks, and that out of thousands, he was only able to indict 22 or 24. As SM pointed out, red tape regarding the evidence Ferencz wanted to use was a problem, and the judges gave the defense a lot of leeway.

There's nothing "problematic" about Ferencz. The only "problem" is that he admitted there was no "American Hoax"

I mentioned in another thread that I just started on Ulf Schmidt's NMT doctors' trial book. Sort of related to this is Schmidt's comparison between Operation Paperclip (the opposite of the Hoax and the ultimate disproof) and the American efforts on the NMT. He mentions that paperclip was meticulously planned and involved the highest echelons of the US government and the US military. In contrast, the team for the NMT doctor's trial were given limited resources and left to their own devices, and it was only thanks to their ingenuity and resources that they even got the trial going. There was no "hoax", and by all accounts the US actually did the opposite of such a "hoax". No hoax, no Einsatzgruppen forgery, no anything.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3840
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:09 pm

Monstrous wrote:Monstrous knows more about the EG trial than SM.

Monstrous knows that Benjamin Ferencz said "Does that make me an accomplice to murder?" in an interview.

Monstrous knows that EG commanders are by Believers now thought to have lied about superior orders.

Monstrous knows better.


Monstrous swings and misses.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 11195
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:14 pm

NathanC wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:Monstrous knows that Benjamin Ferencz said "Does that make me an accomplice to murder?" in an interview.

Well golly, you know something well-known - and which was not part of the EG trials.



Monstrous's quote is out of context, par for the course.

Right, he was speaking about abuse and murder of a prisoner in the DP camps, in an interview in 2005, not the EG trials.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Monstrous
Regular Poster
Posts: 745
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:05 pm

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Monstrous » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:33 pm

Denying-History wrote:The jäger report ended up being a Soviet forgery in the eyes of Monsterous.

Monstrous has a complex mind capable of complex thoughts.

The EG trial reports may have been fabricated by the Brits, the later Jaeger report by the Soviets.

User avatar
Monstrous
Regular Poster
Posts: 745
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:05 pm

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Monstrous » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:40 pm

NathanC wrote:This is the same interview where Ferencz admitted that there was no hoax on the American side.

As if this would have been admitted...

NathanC wrote:He mentions that most Einsatzgruppen suspects slipped through the cracks, and that out of thousands, he was only able to indict 22 or 24. As SM pointed out, red tape regarding the evidence Ferencz wanted to use was a problem, and the judges gave the defense a lot of leeway.

Has anyone considered interpreting the text as that the SUSPECTS who "slipped through the cracks" ended up being roasted alive in cremation ovens?

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 11195
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:53 pm

Monstrous, you are an idiot trying to make up stuff to support your beliefs. But you have explained the revisionist 7-step method to us:

1. concoct a specific belief that stems from your biases and bigotry but for which you have not a shred of evidence
2. search around (using The Google or Metapedia) for something you think you can pass off as support or which you imagine will obfuscate and confuse
3. ignore/dodge/handwave away all objections, requests for clarification, and pleas for evidence
4. bring in some far-fetched and bad tangents to really try confusing matters; if that doesn't work toss in jargon like "Believers"
5. completely change your argument since you can't support it but maintain firm attachment to the specific belief you started with
6. declare your brilliance in historically illiterate and incomprehensible posts
7. rinse and repeat
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3840
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:54 pm

Monstrous wrote:Has anyone considered interpreting the text as that the SUSPECTS who "slipped through the cracks" ended up being roasted alive in cremation ovens?


:award:

You still deserve the above, Monstrous.
Were they roasted in the German Gulags?


Return to “Holocaust Denial”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Xcalibur and 1 guest