Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:15 pm

Monstrous wrote:So, Googling around, Monstrous stumbled upon this silly article:
http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-hist ... orts.shtml

The Ereignismeldungen were located in American captured documents (not British, Soviet, or French), in 1946. Benjamin Ferencz, one of the prosecutors on Case IX, describes the find in his memoirs, and has given interviews about it to historians.

What's remarkable is that here you

1) explain that you basically know nothing about a topic you've posted on for years but rather "stumble" and "google around"
2) reveal that you ignored this post, which I made in your first EG thread, a few days after the OP and which included Nick Terry's article that you now link to as though it is new news to you!

What an imbecile you are.

Monstrous wrote:Benjamin Ferencz, Benjamin Ferencz, Benjamin Ferencz... Monstrous had heard that somewhere before? WAIT! IT THE JEWISH CHIEF PROSECUTOR OF THE EG TRIAL WHO ADMITTED WATCHING GERMAN PRISONER BEING ROASTED ALIVE IN CREMATION OVENS!!! . . .
Soviet propaganda is actually taken seriously? Holocaust denialism could be disproven anytime simply by digging up these mass graves? And Soviet would not have shown these mass graves to the world if there was anything to show?

Not that I can follow you here, as you seem to have worked yourself up about a Jewish prosecutor and, something we've discussed in detail, mass graves in the occupied east, but I just have to ask, what does Benjamin Ferencz's religious background have to do with anything?

The best account I know of on the discovery of the EG reports and organization/preparation of the prosecution iis in Hilary Earl's book on the NMT trial (esp pp 75-79). Here's what I know (although, since you're linking to something Nick Terry wrote, I defer to him, if he's interested in your gyrations): The EG reports were not used at IMT (1945-1946) as their existence not known by time of trial. However, in British interrogation in summer, 1945, Otto Ohlendorf (EGD) had already described the activities of the EGs and had publicly testified to them in the IMT.

In Headland (pp 13-14), we learn that
[O]ne set of these reports (the only known surviving set) was found in the Gestapo building in Berlin on 3 September 1945. A receipt register started on 29 August, 1945, found in the files of the Berlin Document Center, states that the reports were part of a collection of documents weighing approximately two tons that were collected by the 6889th BDC, the forerunner of the present Berlin Document Center. More precisely, this receipt states as follows: (The Collecting) Agency was the 6889th BDC team; Description of Documents: approximately two tons, Gestapo files; Source of Documents: Gestapo Headquarters, Berlin, on 3 September 1945. . . . [which] included 578 folders of documents from the Gestapo and Reichssicherheitshauptamt (RSHA) or Reich Main Security office. These files included an enormous variety of documents covering a wide range of areas.

The EG reports "were later given folder numbers E316 and E325 to E335 by American investigating agencies." These files, mixed in with such a volume of other materials - 1,600 tons of documents taken from various sites in Germany - were not examined and brought to the attention of Benjamin Ferencz, head of the Berlin office for the OCCWC (Office of the Chief Counsel for War Crimes) until the end of 1946 or early 1947. The staff who discovered the documents and brought them at that time to Ferencz worked for the OCCWC; the staff person who first brought 12 binders of reports to Ferencz was a German employee of the office. On reading these Leitz Ordners, Ferencz, took the discovery to Telford Taylor. It was after this that Taylor appointed Ferencz prosecutor. The earliest written mention in OCCWC correspondence of the EG reports dates to 15 January 1947. Systematic analysis of the documents was not undertaken until March-April 1947.

Photostatic copies of the reports were shipped to Nuremberg for the Einsatzgruppen Trial, for which as noted Ferencz had been made prosecutor. This trial, the ninth of the twelve Nuremberg trials, was conducted, of course, by the Americans without the Allied cooperation seen in the IMT. This means that the Americans were not working with the Soviets on these matters any longer and were not, as the Cold War escalated, much concerned with the Soviet viewpoint. The indictments in this case were handed down 29 July 1947, with the trial commencing 29 September.

From that trial, here is the testimony of Kurt Lindow, an RSHA officer, on the authenticity of the reports.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:17 pm

What does "Argument moved to first post mean"?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:19 pm

You certainly noticed, Monstrous, that Nick Terry concluded his THHP article with this, "I'll ignore anything less than a 24 point rebuttal." Is that why you didn't even try to make such a rebuttal - in the hopes that Nick Terry would ignore your idiocy?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Monstrous » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:20 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:What does "Argument moved to first post mean"?

Moved some arguments originally not in the first post to the first post for clarity.

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Monstrous » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:28 pm

So, regarding the discovery of the EG reports we are supposed to trust the story of this Benjamin Ferencz character and possibly Telford Taylor, another problematic Nuremberg figure?
http://www.cwporter.com/anatliar.htm

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:29 pm

Monstrous wrote:Na, just some rather low level-cooperation between, say, some Jews involved in the EG trials and some Jews in the USSR. Or the reports being planted by the Soviets already in 1945 and to be discovered later by Americans.

Or, as likely and supported by the same amount of evidence, trolls done it!

Monstrous wrote:And the mild punishments look suspiciously like rewards for cooperation.

The mildest punishments came later during clemency reviews; the reviews, which occurred during the late 1940s and the 1950s, made major reductions in the sentences. However, these reductions didn't help 4 of the defendants (Blobel, Ohlendorf, Braune, and Naumann) who were hanged as the reward you imagine they were given for cooperating. 14 defendants in the EG trial had been sentenced to death by hanging. The first review of sentences, in 1951, changed 10 of the death sentences - to life in 4 cases and long prison terms for the remaining convicted defendants.

Monstrous wrote:Why is is not mentioned that the Believers now believe that the EG COMMANDERS CONSPIRED AND LIED REGARDING SUPERIOR ORDERS, making their credibility absolutely nothing!!!

I've written about this issue extensively in your first thread, far from ignoring it; I also explained there that the evidence for conviction was almost exclusively documentary. The prosecution virtually dispensed with witnesses, calling IIRC just two. So, no, no leniency for cooperation.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:32 pm

Monstrous wrote:So, regarding the discovery of the EG reports we are supposed to trust the story of this Benjamin Ferencz character and possibly Telford Taylor, another problematic Nuremberg figure?
http://www.cwporter.com/anatliar.htm

What evidence do you have? I shared mine . . . which involves staff as well as Ferencz and Taylor.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:33 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:What does "Argument moved to first post mean"?

Moved some arguments originally not in the first post to the first post for clarity.

It didn't help. It just made more of a jumble.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:37 pm

Monstrous wrote:So, regarding the discovery of the EG reports we are supposed to trust the story of this Benjamin Ferencz character and possibly Telford Taylor, another problematic Nuremberg figure?
http://www.cwporter.com/anatliar.htm

In Monstrous-speak, a "problematic character" is someone who prosecuted Nazi criminals.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Monstrous » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:37 pm

Anyway, it is Monstrous's understanding that only one complete set was "found". The one allegedly "found" by Ferencz.

That some copies of some reports are found elsewhere is not interesting unless these copies are of important reports. Monstrous suspects that all or most of the serious allegations exist only in the reports "found" by Ferencz.

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:44 pm

Monstrous wrote:Anyway, it is Monstrous's understanding that only one complete set was "found". The one allegedly "found" by Ferencz.

Please state the evidence you have that leads you to use scare quotation marks for "found" and write allegedly.

Monstrous wrote:That some copies of some reports are found elsewhere is not interesting unless these copies are of important reports. Monstrous suspects that all or most of the serious allegations exists only in the reports "found" by Ferencz.

Nick Terry wrote in his THHP article, as you know and tried to hand wave away:
2) Are these multiple copies in different spheres of influence?

Yes. The Soviets had some copies of the Ereignismeldungen which are housed in the substantial file that also includes other Einsatzgruppen-related material (RGVA 500-1-25). Moreover there are fragments of Ereignismeldungen in a number of other files: I have seen them in Wehrmacht Propaganda department files, Labour Ministry files, and in separate RSHA files. These tend to be of the intelligence (SD) portions, but the RSHA also circulated parts of the executive (Stapo) reports to interested parties, notably IV A 1 (anticommunism) where these dealt with antipartisan warfare.

As I haven't read from these other sources, and haven't compared sources, I won't offer a view on this. It really doesn't matter - because other reports and other evidence, as we've shown you over and over, corroborate what's in the complete set of reports and because 1) there was testimony at the trial authenticating the reports and 2) the defendants didn't offer a defense that the reports were fabricated but rather accepted them and tried explaining them away.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Monstrous » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:50 pm

So, what if all or most of the important war crimes allegations exist only in the Ferencz "found" reports without duplications elsewhere?

Then there is no need for any international forgery cooperation!!!

Just some forgeries to some documents here and there during the EG trial!

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:53 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:. . . because other reports and other evidence, as we've shown you over and over, corroborate what's in the complete set of reports . . .

Example 1: for Vilnius and Ponary
Statistical Mechanic wrote:A few years ago, I did some reading about German Jewish policy and actions in Lithuania. At the time, I kept a running list of items of evidence that I found useful to my understanding of what was going on in Vilnius - I read about Kaunas and the countryside too, but maintained the list for Vilnius. It's a bit haphazard (often the references are shorthand pointers to jog my memory) and includes some random, unsorted pieces which are reminders about items I'd not yet incorporated into my main list at the time I stopped maintaining it. But I think the work-in-progress is worth posting here, to reinforce Jeffk's reply to Maryzilla just above.

First a note on evidence: it has to be explained - in its totality. Monstrous has tried explaining it by a CT - arguing that much of the evidence we possess for German murder operations in the East has been fabricated by the Soviets. Maryzilla takes a different approach, fairly bracketing out the overwhelming majority of evidence by insinuating that it's "worthless' in favor of physical evidence alone (which, as you'll see, is listed in my notes).

Second, the list includes much about the city and ghetto of Vilnius, because many of the victims at Ponary came from Vilnius - and understanding what took them from Vilnius to Ponary was my main focus at the time, not a study of the mass graves at Ponary. The list also focuses on 1941, which was when the Jews in Vilnius were decimated - but victims continued to be murdered at Ponary during the following two years. And third, this was my running list only - partial even for me - no more than a % of what exists in archives in Lithuania, Germany, Russia, and elsewhere including Yad Vashem and the USHMM; it represents most of what I was able to tap into at the time (e.g., I've since read Kay's book on Filbert and EK9 and could supplement this list with items used by Kay; historians of this period and area - like Dieckmann, Bubnys, Latvytė-Gustaitienė, and others - use a lot more sources - in Lithuanian, German, Yiddish, Russian, and Polish).

So the sources below are what formed my views about what happened to Jews in Vilnius under German occupation. I wonder how Mary and Monstrous formed theirs.

Sources for Vilnius and Ponary

German reports and orders

* orders of Oberstleutnant Zehnpfennig, military administration
* Rosenberg - Brown File
* Lohse - Provisional Directives for commissars on Jewish policy 13 August 1941; directive on ghettos 25 August 1941
* orders issued by Gebietskommissar Hingst, German Civil Administration, esp 2 August, 1 September
* Order No. 6, Heydrich to EG chiefs, 4 July 1941 (cited in Dieckmann)
* records of the German Commissioner for Vilnius-City at the Lithuanian Central State Archive [hereafter cited as LCVA], collection R–614, series 1, folder 409a.
* KTB-Anlagen of the 403. Sicherungs-Division
* Vilnius Gestapo and Security Police records
* von Osten 25 June Order No. 1, co-signed with Zakevicius; 3 July order
* 14 July 1941, the German Battle-Field Commander in Vilnius, Col. Adolf Zehnpfennig, ordered A. Spokevicius to form "Vilnius Construction Battalion" (hereinafter VAT (cited in Bubnys)
* records of three Dulags: 111, 123 and 155 (Dieckmann)
* documents of Zakevicius, chairman of the citizens committee, and Iskauskus, chief of police (Izkauskas report of 9 Sep )
* Dabulevicius's proclamation nr 19, 22 August 1941
* EG leaders 17 June 1941: meeting with Heydrich at his Berlin headquarters
* Heydrich notes on 26 March 1941 meeting
* Einsatzgruppen reports esp nos. 17, 21, 24
* Jäger report
* Stahlecker report

Recorded testimonies of escapees and other witnesses

* a maid of N. - Kruk
* Motel Gdud - in Black Book
* Khiena Katz - in Black Book
* Zelda Eingorn - in Black Book
* Kruk - Trojak, Schloss, Katz, 2 unnamed
* Dworczekci - “Sonia”
* Pesya Aronovich (Aharonowicz) - in Arad, in Dworczecki’s memoir/diary - might have been “Sonia”
* Balberyszski, STI, p106, recounts a similar incident: “Much later [than mid- to late September 1941] I witnessed a case in which a wounded woman who had been taken away came back and managed to reach the ghetto hospital.”
* Kovner - Trojak (in Partisans of Vilna, day book); Eichmann trial testimony

Postwar testimony

* Murer
* Filbert and co-defendants, witnesses
* Liba Augenfeld described an undated escape from Ponar (although the interview is murky as to timing, the incident must have been from the Great Provocation). probably one of the six whom Kruk described as in hospital on 4 Sep. - in Partisans of Vilna
* Kovner - Eichmann trial
* Dworzecki - Eichmann trial
* Dworzecki - 1947 statement http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlesto ... =nuremberg
* Sutzkever - Nuremberg
* testimonies given by SK1005 escapees
* U.S. v. LILEIKIS
* three soldiers from German motorized column on early July 1941 shootings - in Klee
* Motke Zaidel and Itzhak Dugin - in Shoah

Jewish underground reports

* Aryeh Wilner, courier to Warsaw - in Kassow
* article in Neged Hazarem in October 1941 - Oct 41 Polish scout Henryk Grabowski brings news of Vilna massacres to Warsaw ghetto. These include his conversations with leaders of Hashomer Hatzair - in Kassow
* Ringelblum in one passage extolled the underground activists who "were the first to bring back the tidings about the tragedy of Vilna." Kassow mentions others being interviewed in Warsaw, by OS staff, on events in Vilna - and has Huberband writing of one transcript that "It was not regrettably an empty dream nor a mad fantasy or an evil tale but naked bitter reality." As an aside, news about Vilna reached even Perechodnik, who was in the town of Otwock and without OS-type connections, also in fall 1941. - in Kassow
* JTA news articles via Sweden
* reports on New Year’s Day 1942 underground meeting (Kovner)
* Gens Oszmiana speech

Miscellaneous

* Sutzkever - Black Book of Soviet Jewry (Lithuania section)
* contemporary maps of Vilnius

Demographic information

* 403d Security Division
* LitvakSIG names database
* JewishGen names lists from May 1942 census in collaboration with LitvakSIG and Rachel Bostonian
* Murer testimony
* index card files on Vilnius deportees to Klooga
* Polish and Lithuanian data cited in Arad GIF

Diaries

* Kazimierz Sakowicz
* Hermann Kruk
* Marek Dworzecki
* Y. Rudashevski
* Korczak
* Kalmanovitch's diary

Memoirs

* Kaczerginski in Yad Vashem : "The City of Ponary", research conducted by Shmerke Kaczerginski
* Mendel Balberyszski
* Rachel Margolis
* Sutzkever poems, esp Faces in the Swamp cycle

Mass graves

* USSR-7 ChGK report on Lithuania GARF 7021-94-1, pp.1-8
* Pony excavation report - from ТРАГЕДИЯ ЛИТВЫ: 1941–1944 годы. Сборник архивных документов о преступлениях литовских коллаборационистов в годы Второй мировой войны
* photographs of bodies and graves, Ponary (Yad Vashem, Chronicle of Vlina)

Other sources

Secondary accounts use the following sources, among others:
* Arad, GIF: Kruk 1961 edition; Reizel Korczak, Lehavot ba-Efer (Tel Aviv 1946); M. Dworzecki, Yersualayim de-Lita ba-Meri u-va-Sho’ah (Tel Aviv 1951); Jaeger, Y. Rudasehevski (diary published in 1973), L. Epstein (ghetto diary), A. Rindziunski (Moreshet testimony), S. Bronowski (YVA testimony); Rozauskas et al, Document Accuse
* Sutton, MJL: Kruk 1961 edition, M. Dworzecki, Yersualayim de-Lita ba-Meri u-va-Sho’ah (Tel Aviv 1951); A. Rindziunski (Moreshet testimony), S. Bistrickas, Diary of Jews Murdered in Ponar, July 1941-November 1943 (published 1977 In Vilnius, diary of witness, Lithuanian railway worker); A. Sutzkever, Getto Vilna (Tel Aviv 1947)
* Some primary and secondary sources for this execution at Ponar, in addition to those already mentioned, include Reizel Korczak, Lehavot ba-Efer (Tel Aviv 1946); M. Dworzcecki, Yersualayim de-Lita ba-Meri u-va-Sho’ah (Tel Aviv 1951); Jaeger, Y. Rudasehevski (diary published in 1973), L. Epstein (ghetto diary), A. Rindziunski (Moreshet testimony), S. Bronowski (YVA testimony); Rozauskas et al, Documents Accuse; S. Bistrickas, Diary of Jews Murdered in Ponar, July 1941-November 1943 (published 1977 In Vilnius, diary of witness, Lithuanian railway worker); A. Sutzkever, Getto Vilna (Tel Aviv 1947); testimony at Eichmann's trial. Not reading the various languages, I have not read most of these accounts but have come across them in footnotes in Arad's book on Vilna and Sutton's on Lithuania.
* Rozauskas et al, Documents Accuse - can't find this, very important
* http://www.vilnaghetto.com/gallery2/v/vilna/
* From Defending History - Virtual exhibition “Vilnius Ghetto”
On June 22, 1941, Nazi Germany (the Reich) invaded the Soviet Union and in a few days seized Lithuania, formerly occupied by the USSR. One of the main goals of the Nazis was to annihilate the whole Jewish nation.
In July, 1941, the Vilnius Security Police and Security Services set up the Special Squad, which in 1941-1943 murdered people in the forest of Paneriai as well as in other parts of eastern Lithuania. In 1941, most of the murdered people were Jews, though among them were also people of other nationalities (documents No. 7, 9-11, 16-20, 22, 27-28, 70, 71, 89, 95, 92, 93, 105).
On July 5, 1941, a notification was published, announcing that according to the order of the German military field commanders of July 3, 1941, all Jews had to wear hexagonal stars of David on their chests and backs and were forbidden to appear on the streets from 6 p.m. to 6 a.m. (documents No. 3, 46). In late July, 1941, after the Wehrmacht had transferred  power to the civilian occupation administration, Lithuania became one of the General Districts in the Reich Eastern Region (Ostland) and the arrangements for persecution and murder of the Lithuanian population that the Commissioners General for Lithuania started to decree (documents No. 4, 6, 15).
By October 1, 1941, 5 Lithuanian Self-Defense Battalions under the authority of the local government apparatus had been formed in Vilnius; soldiers of these battalions stood guard in the city, drove the Jews into the shooting locations and guarded the killing sites (documents No. 48, 73). The policemen of the Vilnius station of the Lithuanian Public (Order) Police contributed to the arrest of Jews and to the relocation of them to the ghetto (documents No. 8, 64, 68).
On January 1, 1941, there were 58,263 Jews living in Vilnius (27-78 percent of the city’s inhabitants). The persecution and the political discrimination against Jews in Vilnius began in the first days of the Nazi occupation (documents No. 52, 75). In the middle of July, 1941, the mass arrests of Jews began. The detainees were driven to the prison of Lukiškės, then transported to Paneriai and shot. On September 2, 1941, a mass murder of Jews took place in Paneriai. Before the establishment of the Vilnius ghetto, the Special Platoon under the authority of the Security Police and Security Service commander for General District of Lithuania murdered several thousand of the Vilnius Jews in Paneriai.
In the first days of September, 1941, following the order of Adrian Theodor von Renteln, Commissioner General for Lithuania, the Commissioner for Vilnius H. Hingst began to organize the Vilnius Jewish ghetto. The practical organizational work had been entrusted to Franz Murer, Hingst’s aide-de-camp and referent for Jewish Affairs (documents No. 59, 61, 65). On September 6, 1941, Jews from different neighborhoods of the city were methodically relocated to the ghetto and accommodated in two ghettos in the Old Town: the Small One (Ghetto No. 2) and the Big One (Ghetto No. 1). There were almost 40,000 Jews living in the ghettos. The Nazis’ aim was to leave in the ghetto only able-bodied and qualified Jewish workers or craftsmen and to destroy all the others. Mass extermination campaigns continued until the end of 1941, and were often carried out under the pretense of examination and replacement of work permits (documents No. 13, 14, 86, 90). The mass actions in the Small ghetto continued until October 30, 1941, before the ghetto was finally liquidated and its inhabitants shot in Paneriai (documents No. 34, 63, 89). By the end of December, 1941, only about 20,000 inhabitants remained in the Vilnius ghetto. In total, from the beginning of the occupation until the end of 1941, more than 33,000 Jews of Vilnius had been murdered.
After the mass massacre of inhabitants of the Small ghetto in October, 1941, the mood of resistance to Jewish genocide among the Vilnius ghetto youth had intensified.
On January 21, 1942, leaders of the ghetto Zionist and Communist organizations, founded the United Partisan Organization (FPO) and formed the FPO Staff (documents No. 94, 97, 101). The main goal of the FPO was to prepare and implement an armed uprising in the ghetto, should the threat of its liquidation arise. Their plan was to bring Jews in groups from the ghetto to the forests by the end of the uprising and to join the Soviet partisans who were operating there. The FPO accumulated weapons that were being stolen by the Jews employed in Burbiškių military warehouses and in separate parts smuggled into the ghetto (document No. 97), published and distributed anti-Nazi leaflets, carried out acts of sabotage and diversion, attempted to contact other organizations in the anti-Nazi underground as well as partisan units (document No. 39).
On May 8, 1943, leaders of the Union for Liberation of Lithuania, the FPO, and the Polish Patriots Union agreed to work together and founded the underground Committee of the Lithuanian Communist (Bolsheviks) Party (LC(b)P) for Vilnius city. The LC(b)P Committee for Vilnius massed the Vilnius underground, maintained contacts with the Soviet partisans and provided support for the Vilnius ghetto resistance: provided help to the FPO to get weapons, to equip a print-shop for publishing anti-Nazi leaflets and to make contact with partisan units (document No. 23).
In the spring of 1943, the FPO Communists contacted the Soviet partisans that were operating in the forests of Rūdninkai (in Vilnius district), Kazėnai and Narutis (in the region of Vitebsk, Belarus). The FPO’s management believed that leaving the ghetto for the linkup with the partisans was possible only after the uprising in the ghetto, having freed more Jews, so they did not encourage the linkup with partisans before it had taken place, but foresaw that the Soviet Belarusian partisan base in the forests of Narutis would be the main location of exit for the Jews who were going to leave the ghetto.
After the events of July 15-16, 1943 (when the head of the FPO, Itsik Vitenberg, was arrested and murdered) the FPO leadership changed their tactics and immediately began to send their members to join the Soviet partisan units. Until September the main direction of the movement from the ghetto was the forests of Narutis (Belarus), and after the months of September and October, when the Germans had blocked the forests of Narutis and killed some of the Belarusian partisans and fighters of the FPO, the direction changed to Rūdninkai (Lithuanian territory) where the Soviet partisans had begun to set up a base of support for their movement (documents No. 83, 87). Those members of the FPO who remained in the ghetto were preparing for armed resistance in the ghetto itself.
The gradual liquidation of the Vilnius ghetto began in August 1943. On August 6, 1943, the first group of Jews was transported to concentration camps in Estonia. On September 1-4, 1943, another campaign for the shipment of Jews to concentration camps in Estonia took place in the ghetto. With the backing of the ghetto policemen, homes and apartments were rummaged, people arrested, hiding places blown up. During this campaign some 500 Jews had been murdered and after it only 10,000 – 12,000 prisoners remained in the ghetto. From September 5 onward, nobody could either enter or leave the ghetto unless they had special permits. Ghetto residents were hiding in bunkers (malinas), the younger ones tried to flee from the ghetto through the underground sewer and water pipes (document No. 80). On September 23-25, 1943, the ghetto was finally liquidated. 5,000 – 7,000 women and children were deported to German concentration camps (Auschwitz, Treblinka, etc..) and murdered there, some 2,000 Jewish men were deported to concentration camps in Estonia, about 1,400 – 1,700 young women were taken to the Kaiserwald concentration camp near Riga. In September 1944, most of the Jews of Vilnius, who had been held in camps in Estonia, were murdered.
On September 23, 1943, the last day of the ghetto life, some 150 members of the FPO members escaped from the surrounded ghetto through underground sewer trails and reached the forest of Rūdninkai (document No. 76).
Some 360 of the FPO fighters from the Vilnius ghetto withdrew to the Soviet partisan units (Document. 25), according to other data – some 500 people, although not all of them managed to reach the woods – some of the Jews perished along the way. The Jews who came from the Vilnius ghetto to Rūdninkai were mobilized into separate units. In October, 4 squads were formed and had their leaders appointed (documents No. 30, 31, 36, 32, 37, 42, 99, 104). According to the data of the Staff of the Lithuanian partisan movement, 676 of 3904 Soviet partisans that had been operating in Lithuania were Jews.
In some cases, the destruction of the Jews was facilitated by the contribution of their neighbors (document No. 50); however, there were people of good will as well; risking their freedom and their lives, they helped Jews to survive (documents No. 35, 40).
In December 1943, in an effort to hide the traces of their misdeeds, the Nazis began to dig up corpses in Paneriai out of the pits and burn their relics in bonfires (document No. 29).
Some 2,000 – 3,000 of Vilnius’s Jews survived the Nazi occupation and saw the end of World War II. Some returned from the concentration camps, while others went to Israel or the United States. Some of the former Polish citizens of Jewish ethnicity left (were repatriated) to Poland under the agreement of 1944 between the USSR and Poland, some went to Poland illegally with the help of secret Zionist organizations. Some of the Jews who had tried to illegally escape to Poland or Palestine, or helped others to do so, in 1944-1948 were arrested by the NKGB-MGB (documents No. 56, 57).
During the re-sovietization of Lithuania, the Extraordinary State Commission for Assessment and Examination of the Misdeeds of German Fascists and Their Accomplices was formed (documents No. 41, 43, 44, 45, 78, 79), which found that more than 100,000 people were murdered in Paneriai. In the USSR, the Holocaust had not been widely investigated in order to weaken the self-awareness of Jews, to get them quickly sovietized and assimilated. The monument to the Jews murdered in Paneriai, that in 1945 was built for money raised by Jews of Vilnius, with inscriptions in Jewish and Russian, was demolished  in 1952 (documents No. 66, 67). In the early eighties a new monument with the inscriptions in Lithuanian and Russian was built. The inscriptions on it spoke about the murder of 100,000 Soviet people.
After the restoration of Lithuanian state in 1990, the historical analysis of the Holocaust and the perpetuation of memorial sites for its victims had begun. By the decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Council of October 31, 1990, September 23 was included into the list of commemorative days of the Republic of Lithuania as the Day of the Genocide of Lithuanian Jews.
The Holocaust was a huge and heartbreaking tragedy for the Jewish people and the loss for Lithuanian society. Lithuanian Special Archive (LYA) documents reveal many pages of this terrible tragedy, pages that show the persecution of Jews and the destruction of the Jewish resistance and the efforts of Lithuanian society to save Jews.
Documents selected and the preface by the selected literature written by Vilma Ektytė, Nijolė Maslauskienė and Dorota Mordas. The preface to the exhibition and texts of the list of documents were translated by Vitalijus Šarkovas.
LIST OF RECORDS
* http://web.archive.org/web/200510261914 ... rticle=303

2. for Babi Yar
nickterry wrote:Revisionist claims about Babi Yar haven't advanced in almost 25 years - the "mentions" in recent revisionist articles and books are simply repetitions. Ball's air photo claims were examined and debunked almost exactly eight years ago:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... onism.html

The appeal to standard revisionist literature can of course be turned on its head: in the past 25 years historians have continued researching and gathering sources about Babi Yar that were not necessarily known when Ball et al first came up with their drivel. Revisionists ought to be explaining the sources and keeping up to date with the available evidence.

There are over 60 contemporary sources on the BY massacre, the following listing compiled back in November 2012 by me does not include an Abwehr report from the Rovno area that recorded hearsay about the action in November 1941 nor does it include several Polish underground reports likewise registering hearsay of a major massacre at Kiev.

RSHA Sources

1. Ereignismeldung UdSSR 97, 28.9.41 - planning of action

2. Ereignismeldung UdSSR 101, 2.10.41 - carrying out of action, brief reference

3. Ereignismeldung UdSSR 106, 7.10.41 - carrying out of action, more extensive report

4. Ereignismeldung UdSSR 111, 12.10.41 - SK4a bodycount reached more than 51,000, referring back to action

5. Taetigkeits- und Lagebericht der Einsatzgruppen Nr 6, covering 1-31.10.41 - repeating details from the Ereignismeldungen

Foreign Office Sources

6. Summary of TuLBs by Undersecretary of State Martin Luther of Foreign Office, cited by Browning/Origins of the Final Solution, p.204

HSSPF Russland-Sued Sources

7. HSSPF Russland-Sued, Lagebericht, 28.9.41, Military History Archive Prague, Kommandostab RFSS files - "Pol.Rgt. Sued Saeuberungsaktion und Absperrdienst in Kiew"

8. HSSPF Russland-Sued, Lagebericht, 30.9.41, Military Historical Archive Prague, Kommandostab RFSS files - "Pol.Rgt.Sued weiterhin Sicherungsdienst in Kiew und Durchfuehrung von Aktionen nach Kriegsbrauch"

Wehrmacht Sources

9. Report of Oberst Erwin Stolze of the Abwehr, 23.10.41, NOKW-3147, referring to massacre of Jews at Kiev and transmission of information by Hauptmann Hans Koch, liaison officer of the Ostministerium to Army Group South, as well as questioning of Koch by foreign journalists visiting Kiev in October 1941.

10. Report of Hauptmann Hans Koch, liaison officer of the Ostministerium to Army Group South, 5.10.41, regarding situation in Kiev, describes massacre, 053-PS, original in GARF 7445-2-138

11. Propagandakompanie (mot) 637, Taetigkeitsbericht fuer den 25. und 26. September 1941 - printing up of 2000 placards ordering Jews "sich an einem bestimmten Ort zu melden" - BA-MA RH20-6/492, p.18, facsimiled in Verbrechen der Wehrmacht, p.162

12. Besondere Anordnungen fuer die Versorgung, Versorgungsbezirk Sued, Nr 132, 27.9.41, BA-MA RH3/v.174, supply of 100,000 rounds of ammunition to HSSPF Russland-Sued

13. 113. Infanteriedivision Ic, entries in activity report of 27.9.1941 and 3.10.1941, BA Ludwigsburg Dok-Sammlung Verschiedenes IX, p.58ff; reports noting tasking of pioneer battalion to blow up ravine sides over the grave

14. 454. Sicherungsdivision Abt VII, Taetigkeitsbericht 1-10.10.41, NOKW-2129 and BA-MA RH26-454/28, referring to massacre, preparations and aftermath

15. Armeeoberkommando 6 Ic/AO, Taetigkeitsbericht, 3.10.41, BA-MA RH20-6/493, p.240, meetings with SK4a officers

16. Propagandakompanie (mot) 637 an AOK 6, 10.11.41, BA-MA RH20-6/494, p.215ff, notifying army of photos taken by command, including photo of town commandant Eberhard with HSSPF Russland-Sued Friedrich Jeckeln in Kiev, interesting partial corroboration of Ereignismeldungen detail of meetings between Jeckeln, Rasch, Blobel and Eberhard

17. Reichenau Order of 10 October 1941, issued by commander of 6th Army, explicitly exhorting soldiers to have full understanding of the harsh measures against Jews in his sector

18. “In Kiev,” Cpl. LB wrote on September 28, “mines explode one after the other. For eight days now the city is on fire and all of it is the Jews’ doing. Therefore all Jews aged 14 to 60 have been shot and the Jewish women will also be shot, otherwise there will be no end to it.” - quoted in Saul Friedlander, The Years of Exetermination, p.293, from published field post letters of German soldiers.

Collaborator Sources/in Ukrainian Language

19. Placard ordering Jews to gather on 28 September 1941

20. Ukrainian Police commander of Kiev, Order No 5, n.d, after 29.9.41, TsADAHOU 1-23-121, p.6, reproduced in Die Verfolgung und Ermordung der europaeischen Juden Bd.7, pp.304-5, ordering all house block administrators to report any Jews to the nearest police station

21. Ukrains'ke Slovo, Nr 29, 10.10.41, p.4, ordinance of town administration of Kiev of same date, reproduced in Die Verfolgung und Ermordung der europaeischen Juden Bd.7, pp.314-5, ordering that property of Jews be gathered by commissions

Soviet sources

22. Diary of teacher L. Nartova, TsADAHOU 1-22-347, pp.1-3, reproduced in Die Verfolgung und Ermordung der europaeischen Juden Bd.7, p.296

23. Diary of Irina Chorosunova, published in Erhard Wiehn (ed), Die Schoah von Babij Jar, p.292ff

24. Joint report by 18th and 8th Soviet Armies to Political Administration of the Southern Front, 15 January 1942, TsADAHOU 62-9-4. pp.149-155, reproduced in Verfolgung und Ermordung Bd 7, pp.415-9, describing massacre based on eyewitness testimonies of escaped prisoners, noting 'active support of Black Hundreds and Ukrainian nationalists' (i.e. collaborators)

Neutral Sources

25. Aussage eines Wehrmachtdeserteurs, verhoert durch den Einvernahmeoffizier 'Schangau' am 26.2.42, Swiss EMD E27, Dossier 8430, reproduced in Verfolgung und Ermordung Bd 7, pp.441-3, detailed description of Zhitomir action carried out by SK4a, hearsay about action at Kiev

26. Bericht aus Deutschland, November 1941, received by Swiss Bundesanwaltschaft on 13.12.41, BAr Akten der Bundesanwaltschaft E 4320 (B) 1968/195; C.2.8, more hearsay

27. Bericht 8548/d. 444, March 1942, in EMD E 27, 9228, Bd.3, Luftwaffe deserter (Stuka pilot), reporting murder of 40 000 Jews, 'Abmarsch in die Sandgruben: Erschossen. Waende der Sandgruben gesprengt, sodass Massengraeber entstanden'. Interesting knowledge of exact details.

Photographic Sources

28-56: Johannes Haehle's photos

57: German soldiers with clothing, 29.9.41, from BY massacre, different photograher - ЦДКФФАУ, од. зб. 0-11410.

58. German soldiers sorting clothing,29.9.41, from BY massacre, closer to ravine, different photographer - ЦДКФФАУ, од. зб. 0-11411.

I doubt the above is complete, because I've not bothered to look up the sources cited in 2 journal articles on the BY massacre and Wehrmacht complicity.

It doesn't include the hundreds of witness testimonies gathered in about a dozen West German investigations into Sonderkommando 4a, Pol.Btl 45, Pol.Btl. 303, and Sonderkommando 1005, and in at least five Soviet investigations (post-liberation, Kiev trial in 1945, a 1950 investigation, a 1960s one, and one in 1980).

Nor does it include the fact that news of the massacre leaked to the outside world within 2 months. But let's add a few of those, since these reports leaked in multiple directions and cannot be traced back to a single source.

Contemporary Newspaper Reports

59. Krakiwski Wisti, Ukrainian collaborator paper in Cracow, reported by Jewish Telegraphic Agency on 21 October 1941 (dateline London 20 October 1941) saying that the Jews had been driven out of Kiev, 'the last Jew was expelled from Kiev on September 29'.

60. Fred Oechsner, United Press Bureau chief in Berlin, New York Herald Tribune article of 29 October 1941, reporting German sources about liquidations of Jews in Kiev, Zhitomir, Cherson, also noting that 'the Ukrainians took care of matters'.

60a. Neue Zuercher Zeitung, 30 October 1941, 'Eindruecke aus Odessa', reprint of report of United Press correspondent travelling over Ukraine: 'Im Laufe unserer Reise hoerten wir oft von deutschen und rumaenischer Seite von summarischer Behandlung der Juden in Kiew, Shitomir, Cherson und anderen Orten, und die Deutschen erzaehlten haeufig, dass die Ukrainer selber die Sache in die Hand genommen haetten'.

61. Felice Bellotti, “Le mine ‘assassine’ di Kiev,” La Stampa (Turin), October 31, 1941, p. 3 - Italian journalist visiting Kiev in October 1941 on the same tour, told by city administration that all the Jews had gone, and wondered where. See here for more. The 30 journalists taken to Kiev also asked Hauptmann Koch about the massacre, see document 9 listed above.

61a. By contrast, the remarks by the city administration were not mentioned in Alex Small, “Ruins of 5 Day Blaze – Kiev’s War Reminder,” Chicago Daily Tribune, October 23, 1941, p. 1.

62. Jewish Telegraphic Agency report of 16 November 1941 about massacre of 52,000 Jews in Kiev

62a. Pravda and Izvestiia, 19 November 1941, reporting massacre of 52,000 Jews in Kiev, repeated in Pravda, 29 November 1941. Counted as same root source - JTA correspondent probably learned the information from same informant in Kuibyshev/Moscow, but was able to publish.

63. JTA report of Russian eyewitness who had escaped across Soviet lines, confirming massacre, 28 August 1942.

Btw I am happy to keep pointing out your failures 1) to comprehend the range of evidence we use to reach an understanding of German anti-Jewish actions in the East and 2) even to reply to case studies.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Monstrous » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:54 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:As I haven't read from these other sources, and haven't compared sources, I won't offer a view on this. It really doesn't matter - because other reports and other evidence, as we've shown you over and over, corroborate what's in the complete set of reports and because 1) there was testimony at the trial authenticating the reports and 2) the defendants didn't offer a defense that the reports were fabricated but rather accepted them and tried explaining them away.

A combination of threat of torture/death if not cooperating and promise of lenient punishments if cooperating would likely have been quite effective...

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:56 pm

Monstrous wrote:So, what if all or most of the important war crimes allegations exist only in the Ferencz "found" reports without duplications elsewhere?

Ferencz didn't find the reports; his staff did. I already told you "so what" - basically, it doesn't matter, because of the volume of evidence that corroborates the reports and how they've been authenticated. Deal with the evidence for Ponary and Babi Yar.

Monstrous wrote:Then there is no need for any international forgery cooperation!!!

The only need for a forgery operation is in Cloud Cuckooland where you're trying to fabricate a way to protect your beliefs - without evidence for them.

Monstrous wrote:Just some forgeries to some documents here and there during the EG trial!

Exclamation points don't make vacuous comments meaningful.

Why did you lie and say that the prosecution in the EG trial offered lenient sentences to defendants for their cooperation?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:58 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:As I haven't read from these other sources, and haven't compared sources, I won't offer a view on this. It really doesn't matter - because other reports and other evidence, as we've shown you over and over, corroborate what's in the complete set of reports and because 1) there was testimony at the trial authenticating the reports and 2) the defendants didn't offer a defense that the reports were fabricated but rather accepted them and tried explaining them away.

A combination of threat of torture/death if not cooperating and promise of lenient punishments if cooperating would likely have been quite effective...

Evidence for threats and torture? You know, the evidence we've been asking you about for 2 years . . .

Remember, the prosecution didn't call the defendants - the defense put them on the stand. As far as the prosecution was concerned, their case was over and done with once the EG reports were in evidence.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Monstrous » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:59 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:. . . because other reports and other evidence, as we've shown you over and over, corroborate what's in the complete set of reports . . .

SM is giving an enormous text as evidence for some killings. Well, Monstrous if not disputing that such killings occurred, just the very scale and general genocidal intent.

What is evidence is there for that except the EG reports?

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:01 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:. . . because other reports and other evidence, as we've shown you over and over, corroborate what's in the complete set of reports . . .

SM is giving an enormous text as evidence for some killings. Well, Monstrous if not disputing that such killings occurred, just the very scale and general genocidal intent.

I've given you data on the extent and the identity of the victims. You've not responded. The evidence cited in the sources I've listed supports what I've posted.

Monstrous wrote:What is evidence is there for that except the EG reports?

I just posted well over 100 sources for Ponary/Vilnius and over 60 for Babi Yar. Have you examined these sources?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:03 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:As I haven't read from these other sources, and haven't compared sources, I won't offer a view on this. It really doesn't matter - because other reports and other evidence, as we've shown you over and over, corroborate what's in the complete set of reports and because 1) there was testimony at the trial authenticating the reports and 2) the defendants didn't offer a defense that the reports were fabricated but rather accepted them and tried explaining them away.

A combination of threat of torture/death if not cooperating and promise of lenient punishments if cooperating would likely have been quite effective...

Evidence for threats and torture? You know, the evidence we've been asking you about for 2 years . . .

Remember, the prosecution didn't call the defendants - the defense put them on the stand. As far as the prosecution was concerned, their case was over and done with once the EG reports were in evidence.

And, another point you ignore, the court handed out 14 death sentences, out of 22 defendants at the EG trial. It seems that the prosecution was pretty {!#%@} serious about convicting these boys on the basis of their own documentation.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Monstrous » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:04 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:. . . because other reports and other evidence, as we've shown you over and over, corroborate what's in the complete set of reports . . .

SM is giving an enormous text as evidence for some killings. Well, Monstrous if not disputing that such killings occurred, just the very scale and general genocidal intent.

I've given you data on the extent and the identity of the victims. You've not responded. The evidence cited in the sources I've listed supports what I've posted.

Monstrous wrote:What is evidence is there for that except the EG reports?

I just posted well over 100 sources for Ponary/Vilnius and over 60 for Babi Yar. Have you examined these sources?

Seems to be an indiscriminate collection of sources. Some support that killings occurred but says nothing regarding the scale. Only those source that support genocidal killings are controversial.

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:04 pm

Btw, why did you open a new thread on the exact same topic of your first EG thread?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:07 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:. . . because other reports and other evidence, as we've shown you over and over, corroborate what's in the complete set of reports . . .

SM is giving an enormous text as evidence for some killings. Well, Monstrous if not disputing that such killings occurred, just the very scale and general genocidal intent.

I've given you data on the extent and the identity of the victims. You've not responded. The evidence cited in the sources I've listed supports what I've posted.

Monstrous wrote:What is evidence is there for that except the EG reports?

I just posted well over 100 sources for Ponary/Vilnius and over 60 for Babi Yar. Have you examined these sources?

Seems to be an indiscriminate collection of sources. Some support that killings occurred but says nothing regarding the scale. Only those source that support genocidal killings are controversial.

You didn't answer my question: have you examined these sources?

Note: I didn't ask you to tell me what the lists seem in your opinion to contain.

Note 2: You are revealing too much about your method here. "Only those source that support genocidal killings are controversial." No, not exactly. All evidence is "controversial." To understand what occurred, we need to examine the evidence we find based on its merits and by comparing and evaluating it. We don't rule out evidence that we don't like or that doesn't fit our biases beforehand, the way you do. You're trying to find anything to support your preconceptions, we are trying to understand what actually happened. Big difference.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Monstrous » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:08 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:As I haven't read from these other sources, and haven't compared sources, I won't offer a view on this. It really doesn't matter - because other reports and other evidence, as we've shown you over and over, corroborate what's in the complete set of reports and because 1) there was testimony at the trial authenticating the reports and 2) the defendants didn't offer a defense that the reports were fabricated but rather accepted them and tried explaining them away.

A combination of threat of torture/death if not cooperating and promise of lenient punishments if cooperating would likely have been quite effective...

Evidence for threats and torture? You know, the evidence we've been asking you about for 2 years . . .

Remember, the prosecution didn't call the defendants - the defense put them on the stand. As far as the prosecution was concerned, their case was over and done with once the EG reports were in evidence.

And, another point you ignore, the court handed out 14 death sentences, out of 22 defendants at the EG trial. It seems that the prosecution was pretty {!#%@} serious about convicting these boys on the basis of their own documentation.

Monstrous counts only 4 executions out of 22 charged. The rest received ridiculously low sentences for participating in a genocide.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzgruppen_trial

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:16 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:As I haven't read from these other sources, and haven't compared sources, I won't offer a view on this. It really doesn't matter - because other reports and other evidence, as we've shown you over and over, corroborate what's in the complete set of reports and because 1) there was testimony at the trial authenticating the reports and 2) the defendants didn't offer a defense that the reports were fabricated but rather accepted them and tried explaining them away.

A combination of threat of torture/death if not cooperating and promise of lenient punishments if cooperating would likely have been quite effective...

Evidence for threats and torture? You know, the evidence we've been asking you about for 2 years . . .

Remember, the prosecution didn't call the defendants - the defense put them on the stand. As far as the prosecution was concerned, their case was over and done with once the EG reports were in evidence.

And, another point you ignore, the court handed out 14 death sentences, out of 22 defendants at the EG trial. It seems that the prosecution was pretty {!#%@} serious about convicting these boys on the basis of their own documentation.

Monstrous count only 4 executions out of 22 charged. The rest received ridiculously low sentences for participating in a genocide.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzgruppen_trial

First, Wikipedia is not a good source. I am relying on the NMT series and on Earl's study. But if you examine the Wikipedia page for two seconds, you will see that there's a table listing sentences: there are 14 defendants listed as being sentenced to "Death by hanging." That's precisely what I told you.

Perhaps you don't know what "sentence" means. And perhaps you don't realize that after the trial, in part due to Cold War tensions, sentence reviews and clemency reviews occurred.

Now, eventually, in 1951, as a result of a sentence review after and not part of the trial, 10 of the death sentences were reduced. That's also what I told you. And yes, 4 convicted murderers were indeed hanged. Also as I told you.

All of which is immaterial in the sense that the prosecution did not make use of defendants' testimony in their case and never called them to the stand during the trial for examination.

Stop wasting people's time and post something useful. For crissakes.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:20 pm

Another question, muppet: Tell us what evidence you have for events at a) Ponary and b) Babi Yar.

So, first, what evidence that Nick Terry and I have listed have you examined and, second, for your contrary understanding, what evidence to you have?

No more dancing and fidgeting, a straight answer.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Monstrous » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:21 pm

To repeat again, some witness reporting seeing a few persons being shot and buried is not controversial. Everyone accepts that such killings occurred. The interesting parts is where there are allegations of large scale genocidal killings. SM's collection is an indiscriminate collection which may or may not contain some such interesting parts. If there are any, except the EG reports, please tell.

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:26 pm

Monstrous wrote:To repeat again, some witness reporting seeing a few persons being shot and buried is not controversial. Everyone accepts that such killings occurred. The interesting parts is where there are allegations of large scale genocidal killings. SM's collection is an indiscriminate collection which may or may not contain some such interesting parts. If there are any, except the EG reports, please tell.

"To repeat again" tell us what evidence you have for events at a) Ponary and b) Babi Yar.

So, first, what evidence that Nick Terry and I have listed have you examined and, second, for your contrary understanding, what evidence do you have?

No more dancing and fidgeting, a straight answer.

(Helpful hint: for the lists which Nick and I posted, you can just copy Nick's list and mine and highlight in red those sources you've examined. That will enable us to discuss the ones you are relying on.)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:29 pm

Monstrous, why did you lie and say that the prosecution in the EG trial offered lenient sentences to defendants for their cooperation? what deal was offered to whom and when, according to you, in exchange for what? what use did the prosecution make of the defendants in their case during the NMT trial? how did Ohlendorf, Blobel, Braune, and Naumann feel about the leniency afforded them?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Denying-History » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:26 pm

I love how all of Monstrous retorts to the links he provides is practically just him calling false with nothing to back himself up with.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
- James Mace

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:31 pm

I'm no longer interested in replying to Monstrous but I do enjoy watching Stat Mech smack him around.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Pyrrho » Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:35 am

Temporarily locking for a merge.
For any forum questions or concerns please e-mail skepticforum@gmail.com or send a PM.

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Pyrrho » Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:38 am

Temporarily locking for a merge.
For any forum questions or concerns please e-mail skepticforum@gmail.com or send a PM.

The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:54 am

Thank you, Pyrrho, nice to have all the bogus material on alleged Soviet fabrication of EG reports in one thread.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:23 am

Monstrous wrote:To repeat again, some witness reporting seeing a few persons being shot and buried is not controversial.


It was a lot more than a few witnesses and it was a lot more than a few persons. Otto Ohlendorf testified that he oversaw the execution of as many as 90,000 (although he seemed to have a bit of difficulty remembering the numbers - a major sign that the NMT did not coach him or feed him a script or whatever conspiraloon {!#%@} fumes you've been dreaming up)

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:27 am

Monstrous wrote:A combination of threat of torture/death if not cooperating and promise of lenient punishments if cooperating would likely have been quite effective...


Hardly. Most of the defendants downplayed the extent of the crimes and attempted to wiggle their way out. Ohlendorf actually attempted to justify the shootings and made nasty anti-semetic remarks to the American prosecutor, who happened to be Jewish. That bears no resemblance to the conduct of defendants at show trials at any point in history.

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:28 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:To repeat again, some witness reporting seeing a few persons being shot and buried is not controversial.


It was a lot more than a few witnesses and it was a lot more than a few persons. Otto Ohlendorf testified that he oversaw the execution of as many as 90,000 (although he seemed to have a bit of difficulty remembering the numbers - a major sign that the NMT did not coach him or feed him a script or whatever conspiraloon {!#%@} fumes you've been dreaming up)

He is also purposefully ignoring German documents - many are listed - but the real question I have is this: if Monstrous can't tell us which documents he's studied, how can he presume to tell us what they contain?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:33 am

Monstrous wrote:So, regarding the discovery of the EG reports we are supposed to trust the story of this Benjamin Ferencz character and possibly Telford Taylor, another problematic Nuremberg figure?


No Nuremberg figure is problematic, except for the hangman, who was rather problematic for Nazi necks. We are not expected to trust Ferencz, but rather the German clerks of the Office of the Chief Counsel for War Crimes who delivered the documents to him, the staff that examined them, and the American soldiers who found them in the first place. And trust them we do.

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:36 am

Monstrous wrote:Na, just some rather low level-cooperation between, say, some Jews involved in the EG trials and some Jews in the USSR.


At the beginning of the Cold War? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Or the reports being planted by the Soviets already in 1945 and to be discovered later by Americans.


It took the Americans two years to get their asses in gear so I doubt very much that that was the case. The USSR was not known for playing the long game. It was much more in their character to make a (laughable) forgery, present it as their own, and get exposed immediately as was the case with Katyn.

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:42 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:A combination of threat of torture/death if not cooperating and promise of lenient punishments if cooperating would likely have been quite effective...


Hardly. Most of the defendants downplayed the extent of the crimes and attempted to wiggle their way out. Ohlendorf actually attempted to justify the shootings and made nasty anti-semetic remarks to the American prosecutor, who happened to be Jewish. That bears no resemblance to the conduct of defendants at show trials at any point in history.

Many of the defendants - I forget which ones - echoed Ohlendorf's superior orders defense. I've pointed this out before - earlier in his career, the judge, Michael Musmanno, had campaigned against the death penalty in the Sacco and Vanzetti case and afterwards became a determined foe of the death penalty. His reasoning had in part to do with the possibility of fallibility in legal proceedings vs the irretrievable nature of the death penalty. Musmanno even met with a military chaplain to consider the ethics before imposing the penalties on the convicted EG leaders.

The judge finally seemingly devised a solution he could accept: the judge felt that he could reach the guilty verdicts easily, given the overwhelming evidence against the defendants whom he found guilty. However, each defendant who received death had admitted to the crimes. Ohlendorf, as you wrote above. Blobel told the court that many victims had been killed at Babi Yar (but said that the 33,000 was an exaggerated figure) and also admitted to killing 10- to 15,000 others. And so on.

Some of these admissions were justified with superior orders, lack of choice, etc - but all admitted to the killings. Hilary Earl hypothesizes, based on this pattern, that Musmanno's conscience allowed the death penalty for "those who had confessed their crimes."

Needless to say, this pattern is exactly the opposite of what, ignorant of the trial and its outcomes, Monstrous tried to pass off as happening. The reality is that those defendants who gave the most "helpful" testimony to proving guilt received the ultimate penalty - death - not leniency.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Xcalibur » Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:04 am

Is it wrong I find this totally comedic? I mean Monstrous...

This reminds me years ago of a sad little Malaysian chap at AHF who was a slightly older than adolescent Waffen-SS fanboy.... He decided at some point to venture into the HD realm and had managed to research his foray by reading 5 Irving books and two by Anthony Beevor (Stalingrad and Berlin), which he used as proof for every absolutely ridiculous post he made... needless to say his posting career there enjoyed a somewhat "mixed" career.

It's sad... but sometimes comedic.


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