Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby ryu » Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:05 pm

I would like to know how it is off topic yes.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:13 pm

ryu wrote:I would like to know how it is off topic yes.

I told you.

The thread is about Soviet forgeries of Einsatzgruppen reports. It is not about general discussion of the Einsatzgruppen.

Monstrous has been asked (repeatedly) to explain how the forgeries of specific documents were carried out (the ones he made claims about in the OP, the EG reports), which reports or portions of reports were messed with, by whom, how, when, etc.

Instead, Monstrous answered about mass graves. Not about forgery of Einsatzgruppen reports, which is what he was asked to explain.

It is like if you asked me, as you did, how Monstrous's post is off topic, and I told you that Monstrous quotes Metapedia way too much. I would be saying something about Monstrous but not answering your specific question. Just as Monstrous typed some silliness about the Einsatzgruppen but avoided answering the specific question (about forgeries) he had been asked.

If you cannot see how his reply is off topic to both his own thread, and what I asked him, I cannot help any further.

Perhaps someone else can state this more clearly?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Aug 20, 2016 3:18 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:Monstrous is probably behind the WN metapedia. Or writes for it....


You sure? He seems to display childlike excitement upon uncovering his latest epic failure of an "argument" from there, not exactly a mark of one of the sites puppetmasters. He's definitely from somewhere where English is not the official language but is widely spoken.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Aug 20, 2016 3:59 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Darren Wilshak wrote:Monstrous is probably behind the WN metapedia. Or writes for it....


You sure? He seems to display childlike excitement upon uncovering disseminating his latest epic failure of an "argument" from there, not exactly a mark of one of the sites puppetmasters. He's definitely from somewhere where English is not the official language but is widely spoken.

My bold...

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:34 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Darren Wilshak wrote:Monstrous is probably behind the WN metapedia. Or writes for it....


You sure? He seems to display childlike excitement upon uncovering disseminating his latest epic failure of an "argument" from there, not exactly a mark of one of the sites puppetmasters. He's definitely from somewhere where English is not the official language but is widely spoken.

My bold...


If he was one of the writers one would think he would have familiarity with it. Instead he acts as if he's discovered some ancient wisdom in the basement of an abandoned Scottish Rite lodge.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:05 pm

Maybe part of the act is played to ease the digging for certain pearls among those who know a whole lot more than s/he seems to.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:12 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Maybe part of the act is played to ease the digging for certain pearls among those who know a whole lot more than s/he seems to.


That would require subtlety and craftiness, two attributes that he demonstrably does not have.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Darren Wilshak » Sat Aug 20, 2016 6:00 pm

Never underestimate Mmmmonstrousssssss....

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Aug 20, 2016 6:06 pm

Image

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Monstrous » Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:53 pm

Is Monstrous really Monstrous? Is the "M" in (M)onstrous and (M)etapedia just a coincidence? Is Monstrous a (M)aster race (M)aster sockpuppeter? Is it all part of a marvelously mysterious mighty Monstrous master mega conspiracy?

Is Statistical (M)echanic Monstrous's sockpuppet? It that why S(M)'s argumentation is so poor? Monstrous has created a Straw (M)an Statistical Mechanic Believer in order to make the Believers look bad?

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Monstrous » Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:54 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:Monstrous is a classic drive by poster. He posts his ramblings and leaves, and selects which avenues of discussion he would rather not travel down.

Monstrous publishes marvelous masterworks, producing a warm glow from the satisfaction of a work well done, and leaves before any jealous and petty small-mindedness can spoil the environment.


The best way to post.
Last edited by Monstrous on Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Monstrous » Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:55 pm

Monstrous wrote:Monstrous has been to the cinema!

And watched this:
https://archive.org/details/VincentReyn ... eMensonges

So, the EG numbers according to the EG reports are much smaller than usually stated! There was no genocidal plan!


The collective Believer hive mind has still not been able formulate even a feeble response.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:38 pm

Someone alert the authorities. Monstrous's medication wore off.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:23 pm

Yawn.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:49 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:Monstrous is a classic drive by poster. He posts his ramblings and leaves, and selects which avenues of discussion he would rather not travel down.

Monstrous publishes marvelous masterworks, producing a warm glow from the satisfaction of a work well done, and leaves before any jealous and petty small-mindedness can spoil the environment.


The best way to post.


:rotfl:

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:50 pm

Monstrous wrote:Is Monstrous really Monstrous? Is the "M" in (M)onstrous and (M)etapedia just a coincidence? Is Monstrous a (M)aster race (M)aster sockpuppeter? Is it all part of a marvelously mysterious mighty Monstrous master mega conspiracy?

Is Statistical (M)echanic Monstrous's sockpuppet? It that why S(M)'s argumentation is so poor? Monstrous has created a Straw (M)an Statistical Mechanic Believer in order to make the Believers look bad?


What thread have you been reading? Do you still parrot your inane nonsense on SK 1005 and the Jager report?

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:31 pm

I'm sorry, I nodded off. Did Monstrous finally post some evidence for Soviet forgery of the EG reports? He is jumping up and down like he's written the Iliad and the Odyssey, yet I still can't find any . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:37 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Monstrous wrote:Monstrous has been to the cinema!

And watched this:
https://archive.org/details/VincentReyn ... eMensonges

So, the EG numbers according to the EG reports are much smaller than usually stated! There was no genocidal plan!


The collective Believer hive mind has still not been able formulate even a feeble response.

Yet they believe they have.
Thanks from:
Abraham, Jesus, Mohammed, Satan, Tinky Winky

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:54 pm

As far as I can tell the monstrosity learned of Reynouard 17 pages ago in this thread through Balsamo. Has it followed any of the discussion or links provided?

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 23, 2016 7:33 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Monstrous wrote:Monstrous has been to the cinema!

And watched this:
https://archive.org/details/VincentReyn ... eMensonges

So, the EG numbers according to the EG reports are much smaller than usually stated! There was no genocidal plan!


The collective Believer hive mind has still not been able formulate even a feeble response.

Yet they believe they have.

Who believes that? I've been trying to get Monstrous back on topic - Soviet forgeries of the EG reports, evidence for these claimed forgeries ("The obvioud explanation is, of course, that the Soviets forged the documents") - and avidly ignoring tangents like Himmler's "exterminate as partisans" note and Monstrous's links to videos.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:16 pm

Monstrous wrote:Is Monstrous really Monstrous? Is the "M" in (M)onstrous and (M)etapedia just a coincidence? Is Monstrous a (M)aster race (M)aster sockpuppeter? Is it all part of a marvelously mysterious mighty Monstrous master mega conspiracy?

Is Statistical (M)echanic Monstrous's sockpuppet? It that why S(M)'s argumentation is so poor? Monstrous has created a Straw (M)an Statistical Mechanic Believer in order to make the Believers look bad?


Steve? Steve Willow?

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Darren Wilshak » Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:10 am

Weide retired from operations.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:47 am

Monstrous wrote:Is Monstrous really Monstrous? Is the "M" in (M)onstrous and (M)etapedia just a coincidence? Is Monstrous a (M)aster race (M)aster sockpuppeter? Is it all part of a marvelously mysterious mighty Monstrous master mega conspiracy?

Is Statistical (M)echanic Monstrous's sockpuppet? It that why S(M)'s argumentation is so poor? Monstrous has created a Straw (M)an Statistical Mechanic Believer in order to make the Believers look bad?

If you say so. But please do feel free to answer the questions you were asked about the claim in the OP. To get you on your way, here's the list of specific forgeries in the EG reports which you've provided:

1.

And here's the evidence you've supported this list with:

1.

You were also going to tell us all the specific Ponary-related documents that you can identify as fabricated, along with evidence of fabrication. I am reposting what we have so far:

1.

You seem incapable of helping to flesh these lists out. Maybe some others here can help you.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:03 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:Is Monstrous really Monstrous? Is the "M" in (M)onstrous and (M)etapedia just a coincidence? Is Monstrous a (M)aster race (M)aster sockpuppeter? Is it all part of a marvelously mysterious mighty Monstrous master mega conspiracy?

Is Statistical (M)echanic Monstrous's sockpuppet? It that why S(M)'s argumentation is so poor? Monstrous has created a Straw (M)an Statistical Mechanic Believer in order to make the Believers look bad?

If you say so. But please do feel free to answer the questions you were asked about the claim in the OP. To get you on your way, here's the list of specific forgeries in the EG reports which you've provided:

1.

And here's the evidence you've supported this list with:

1.

You were also going to tell us all the specific Ponary-related documents that you can identify as fabricated, along with evidence of fabrication. I am reposting what we have so far:

1.

You seem incapable of helping to flesh these lists out. Maybe some others here can help you.

How damn hard is it to take a finite set of documents (the 195 Ereignismeldungen - we can deal with the TuLBs and the Meldungen aus den besetzten Ostgebieten later) and tell us what's been fabricated in them, if anything has and if you know?

By playing games and refusing to answer the simplest of questions, the deniers here completely discredit their claims and themselves.

The performance of Monstrous and Mary in this thread is pathetic.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:34 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:The performance of Monstrous and Mary in this thread is pathetic.


His hatchet job in the "trains to nowhere" thread was comical. He actually started replying in the wrong thread at one point. It was his magnum opius of duncery, so anus opius

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:50 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:The performance of Monstrous and Mary in this thread is pathetic.


His hatchet job in the "trains to nowhere" thread was comical. He actually started replying in the wrong thread at one point. It was his magnum opius of duncery, so anus opius


The "trains to nowhere" set my mind wandering:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AWtCittJyr0

Perhaps this is the new denier theme song.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:37 am

:lol: ... I sort of expected "Runaway Train" by Soul Asylum...

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:25 am

"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:11 am

scrmbldggs wrote::lol: ... I sort of expected "Runaway Train" by Soul Asylum...


I was thinking "Train Kept a Rollin'"

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Monstrous » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:33 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:Monstrous has been to the cinema!

And watched this:
https://archive.org/details/VincentReyn ... eMensonges

So, the EG numbers according to the EG reports are much smaller than usually stated! There was no genocidal plan!

Not germane. The question you were asked is not whether there was a genocidal plan, whatever you mean by that, but to provide evidence for and an explanation of how the Soviets forged the Einsatzgruppen reports.

Stop trying to change the subject. If you cannot answer what you were asked, have the decency just to admit it.

Still no reply at all to the movie that Monstrous went to the trouble to watch!

Veni, vidi, vici!

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:44 pm

Told you: you reply to the dozens and dozens of questions and challenges to your OP, then you get to ask us questions. You are also told not to change the subject to general issues related to the Einsatzgruppen but to stick with your unsupported OP - the Soviets' alleged forgery of the Einsatzgruppen reports.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:18 am

Monstrous, whilst he's fumbling around trying to get his head out of the noose he drew for himself in the OP, has tried arguing that the Einsatzgruppen were principally security forces focused on partisans - and if Jews were killed, then it was in the context of security operations ("the higher leadership considered the Jews to be very important for the partisans and that why was some Jewish groups were targeted"). This argument is a favorite of been-there's, and our own class-clown Marydogz used to engage tremendous huffing and puffing trying to have things this way, too.

We've already shown - thanks to Hans and certain German reports - that Jews made up about 88% of EG-B's victims and 98% of those of EK-3. But I just came across a relevant, analogous point in Goldstein & Goldstein, The Holocaust in Croatia. G&G observe that in the Ustasha slaughter of Serbs and killings of Croatians security concerns were critical. One sign of this is the composition of the victims by age and gender. Using a sample from Zagreb and looking at gender, G&G write that
almost six times more men than women were killed among the Croats, and, surprisingly, among the Serbs, while the ratio among the Jews is almost 1 to 1.

To drill down, 51.8% of the Jews murdered were male and 48.2% were female.
These numbers show that in Zagreb, Croats and Serbs were mostly killed because they were considered a potential or a real ideological, political, or military threat to the regime, while the Jews were killed simply because they were Jews - in genocidal murder, where the sex and age of the Jewish victims were immaterial.

(p 562) G&G describe the ISC's mass murder of Jews, thus, as "classical genocide."

In this thread, we've hit on the same point a number of times, discussing the expansion of the mass murder of Jews in the occupied USSR during June-July-August 1941 from focusing on Jewish males to embracing by summer's end entire Jewish communities without regard for age and gender.

The Jäger report is a rich source for data illustrating this. Unfortunately for this purpose, the data before EK-3 took over operations in Lithuania are not detailed but simply show about 6,500-7,000 Jewish victims in Vilnius where EK-9 operated until August 1941.

We do have detailed data for the rest of Lithuania during July and August. Up until mid-August,
- 13,348 of the victims were men
- 1,436 were women
- just 4 were children

However, note that Jews were 95% of the EGs' victims during this period.

As the narrative material discussed in this thread asserts, the pattern changed in August. From the second half of August through November 1941, according to the data in the Jäger report,
- 39,748 of the victims were men
- 46,881 were women
- 29,298 were children

These numbers show a clear shift to what G&G call a "classic genocide." There's a simple reason why Jewish men were outnumbered by Jewish women victims during mid-August through November: in many areas of Lithuania many of the Jewish men had been murdered in the June-mid-August period. (The % of victims of EK-3 who were Jews during this later period was 98+%.)

After they've answered our questions about fabricated evidence, the deniers here need to explain this issue as well: why does the composition of Jews murdered, by gender and age, in Lithuania during 1941 fit the pattern of "classic genocide"? why in Lithuania during all the months of 1941 were more of the EGs Jewish victims women and children - approximately 76,000 - than "partisan-ready" men - approximately 53,000?
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Mon Dec 26, 2016 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 26, 2016 11:02 am

How's it coming, little fella?
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: . . . please do feel free to answer the questions you were asked about the claim in the OP. To get you on your way, here's the list of specific forgeries in the EG reports which you've provided:

1.

And here's the evidence you've supported this list with:

1.

You were also going to tell us all the specific Ponary-related documents that you can identify as fabricated, along with evidence of fabrication. I am reposting what we have so far:

1.

You seem incapable of helping to flesh these lists out. Maybe some others here can help you.

How damn hard is it to take a finite set of documents (the 195 Ereignismeldungen - we can deal with the TuLBs and the Meldungen aus den besetzten Ostgebieten later) and tell us what's been fabricated in them, if anything has and if you know? . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:42 pm

adapted from Challenge thread, posted here where the material is on-topic for discussion of orders/decisions regarding the Einsatzgruppen in the occupied USSR: HDOT has a brief review of the issue of orders here.

The time line below conforms to the HDOT page and to the arguments of Longerich and others about the escalation process - that units tested limits, tallied successes, habituated themselves to becoming murder squads, proving in action what could be done to get rid of Jews and solve the Jewish problem. Note that previous to Barbarossa elements in the Wehrmacht had already protested the mass executions of Jews in Poland, which controversies were in the background and helped shape the way the EGs were to operate in the USSR:

3 March 1941: Hitler to Jodl on directive no. 21 stressing that “The Jewish-Bolshevik intelligentsia . . . must be eliminated” in the coming war against the USSR (identifying Jews with the Soviet intelligentsia and elite)

13 March 1941: Jodl issues directive on “special responsibilities on behalf of the Führer” assigned to RFSS in the “struggle . . . between two opposing political systems,” to prepare for political rule over USSR

17 March 1941: Hitler to army leaders that “the most brutal force is necessary” to undo the “intelligentsia” in the USSR

26 March 1941: Heydrich note on meeting with Göring on solution to Jewish question saying that Göring had requested a short memo "on the threat of the GPU apparatus, the political commissars, Jews, etc so they basically know who to stand against the wall"; Heydrich was also instructed to include a change in Rosenberg's responsibilities in this regard

30 March 1941: Hitler to generals that the war will be a “judgment about Bolshevism . . . We are talking about a war of extermination” of the commissars and intelligentsia

13 May 1941: Barbarossa Jurisdiction Decree removing soldiers who committed crimes against civilians from jurisdiction of military courts

19 May 1941: Guidelines for the Behavior of the Troops in Russia required “drastic and energetic measures against Bolshevik agitators, guerrillas, saboteurs and Jews” (and Jews!)

spring 1941: Rosenberg states early guidelines on propaganda for invasion of Soviet Union calling for press to emphasize that USSR is under "a group of Jewish criminal despots" and that local actions ("free rein") against Jews will be necessary to solving Jewish question in east; "the German army comes as a liberator from Bolshevism and from Jewry" by means of "large-scale Jewish pogroms and murders of Communist functionaries"

21 May 1941: to carry out assigned tasks, Himmler subordinated EGs to HSSPFs

11-14 June 1941: Himmler meeting at Wewelsburg with SS leadership and HSSPFs for east, discussion of demographic reordering in east with expectation of 30 million deaths among Russians (building on Wehrmacht meeting of 2 May projecting "x millions" of deaths in the region due to occupation; also late May "many tens of millions" - context: Hunger Plan)

17 June 1941: Heydrich briefing of EG leaders in Berlin, also at Pretzsch - no written records but orders summarized in written orders of 29 June and 2 july below

29 June 1941: Heydrich order to heads of EG and RSHA officials instructing that German commanders secretly instigate “self-cleansing efforts by anti-Communist or anti-Jewish groups in the area to be occupied”

30 June 1941: Heydrich and Himmler visited Grodno and ordered EG-B “to intensify” killing operations (return visit on 9 July confirmed that EG-B had complied)

2 July 1941: Heydrich reiterated instruction regarding self-cleansing efforts (pogroms) and identified which people should be “executed” including as noted “Jews in party and state positions”; the list concluded with “etc”; statement on murder of Jewish elite left loosely defined and without a limit – why mention Jews at all if they do not form a special target with special permissions being granted?

30 July 1941: Himmler visit to Baranovichi, order “All Jews must be shot. Jewish women to be driven into the marshes” (Pripet) (written order supplementing oral orders of the period, to SS Calvary Brigade) (note: "all Jews" - men - in keeping with expansive early verbiage but clarifying the upper limit)

15 August 1941: Himmler visit to Minsk, discussion of widening victims to include Jewish women and children (Himmler diary entry on this is “partisans and Jews”)

5 September 1941: Rosenberg record of meeting with Lohse on experience gathered in Ostland; notes 10,000 Jews executed - in context of solving the Jewish question - by "the Lithuanian population," confirming implementation of Heydrich's self-cleansing order; Rosenberg's diary summary for late 1941 recorded his being informed of such executions as early as 3 July 1941

Anyone interested in more detail and how this process played out in Lithuania and Ukraine can start with this post and continue for 4 posts or so, all containing details which Monstrous has ignored repeatedly in multiple threads. Also Himmler’s permission to Greiser to murder Warthegau Jews was granted during summer 1941, although Chelmno didn’t start operating until December. Note too that among the participants at Wannsee in January 1942 were experienced EG commanders. Also recall that reports on the activities of the Einsatzgruppen, with their clear statements of extermination of Jews in support of a solution of the Jewish problem, were sent to the Führer among a long list of other Nazi big-wigs. According to Gestapo Müller who sent a radio message reading in part, “Regular reports on the work of the Einsatzgruppen in the east are to be sent to the Führer.” Longerich, Himmler, p 530 (as noted earlier in this thread).
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:14 pm

I'm almost done with Gerlach, I'm on his conclusion.

I'll finish it at lunch, hoping to post something then.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:07 pm

The Führer met on 22 July 1942 with Marshal Slavko Kvaternik, minister of defense of the Independent State of Croatia, along with the German Foreign Minister Ribbentrop and Generalfeldmarschall Keitel. Indeed, the Führer showed his keen interest in the Jewish question during this meeting and was willing to share with Kvaternik some of what the Germans had underway in this regard.

Pressing Kvaternik on the problem of the Jews, Hitler said, in an echo of Heydrich's self-cleansing instructions (and a deployment of that cover story), that local citizens in the Baltic countries had begun dealing with the Jews, "Jews are the plague of mankind. Therefore now the Lithuanians, Estonians, and Latvians are wreaking bloody revenge on them. . . . If the Jews had free rein as in the Soviet paradise, they would put the most insane plans into effect. Thus Russia has become a plague-centre for mankind. . . ." (It has to be noted that one cannot read the totality of Heydrich's instructions at this time - pogroms against local Jews, plausible deniability for German killing actions, executions of Jews in state and party positions - in a restrictive, limited sense. Taken together, the two thrusts - killing of local Jews without discrimination in pogroms or other actions, killing of Jews as members of the Soviet elite - declared that the Jews were now fair game, so long as the units covered their tracks somewhat, operating under cover of German instigated mobs of locals at the outset, and indeed clarified that Germans operating in the east had high-level permission to murder Jews. Hitler himself, as we see here, shared some of this thinking with Kvaternik.)

Hitler continued instructing Kvaternik on the Jewish problem, btw, shifting his attention from the occupied USSR to all of Europe, "If only one state tolerates a Jewish family among it, this would provide the core bacillus for a new decomposition. If there were no more Jews in Europe, the unity of the European states would no longer be disturbed. Where the Jews are sent to, whether to Siberia or Madagascar, is immaterial.” (from Ezergailis and Kershaw)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Monstrous » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:37 pm

So, Googling around, Monstrous stumbled upon this silly article:
http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-hist ... orts.shtml

The Ereignismeldungen were located in American captured documents (not British, Soviet, or French), in 1946. Benjamin Ferencz, one of the prosecutors on Case IX, describes the find in his memoirs, and has given interviews about it to historians.


Benjamin Ferencz, Benjamin Ferencz, Benjamin Ferencz... Monstrous had heard that somewhere before? WAIT! IT IS THE JEWISH CHIEF PROSECUTOR OF THE EG TRIAL WHO ADMITTED WATCHING GERMAN PRISONERS BEING ROASTED ALIVE IN CREMATION OVENS!!!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01680.html

"Yes. Contrary to popular belief, Sonderkommando 1005 only visited a fraction of the sites, notably the larger cities, but even in these cases, a mass-grave sized pit with ashes must be considered corroboration of the document and the witnesses. There were no such exhumations and incinerations by the Germans in among other cities: Smolensk, Kharkov, Pinsk, Rovno, Bryansk, Orel, the Crimea as a whole, and pretty much every smaller town. There mass graves were located, exhumed and in some cases autopsied. Probably better than two-thirds of the mass graves were found intact after the war. A number have been re-exhumed or relocated since the end of the Cold War, notably at Marijampole in Lithuania (contrary to claims by Germar Rudolf based on a premature news story), in Galicia and the western Ukraine, and in Belarus, though given the extent of the mass graves there is no plan to re-examine all of them: this would satisfy the curiosity of only a tiny minority who would refuse to believe it anyway, so would be a complete waste of time and effort.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Soviet propaganda is actually taken seriously? Holocaust denialism could be disproven anytime simply by digging up these mass graves? And the Soviets would not have shown these mass graves to the world if there was anything to show?

What would be required for the Ereignismeldungen to be faked or manipulated? Primarily, a vast conspiracy between the USA and USSR at a time of worsening east-west relations.

Na, just some rather low level-cooperation between, say, some Jews involved in the EG trials and some Jews in the USSR. Or the reports being planted by the Soviets already in 1945 and to be discovered later by Americans.

Then of course there is the necessary arm-twisting/coercion/torture/bribery necessary to convince the German witnesses to endorse the authenticity of the reports, to testify to their actions during Case IX, to testify to their actions in dozens of trials carried out in the BRD, to testify to what they saw as bystanders in the same trials, and to maintain the silence of released prisoners after the end of their sentences. Everyone from Case IX was out by 1958 while the majority of BRD trials gave out low sentences.

As stated, the chief prosecutor of that trial has admitted watching German prisoners being burned alive in cremation ovens...

And the mild punishments look suspiciously like rewards for cooperation.

Why is is not mentioned that the Believers now believe that the EG COMMANDERS CONSPIRED AND LIED REGARDING SUPERIOR ORDERS, making their credibility absolutely nothing!!!

For what?

Besides the obvious Jewish interests, all the Allies had a strong interest in promoting the Holocaust story.
Last edited by Monstrous on Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:04 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:42 pm

And so it begins.
Monstrous, shattered by the implications of the Reinhard thread, opens a new one to get our minds off it.

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Monstrous » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:47 pm

Argument moved to first post!
Last edited by Monstrous on Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The EG: Monstrous Strikes Back

Postby Monstrous » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:51 pm

Argument moved to first post!


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