Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:39 pm

Hmmmm, this kind of {!#%@} deniers six ways to Sunday (thanks to Jon Harrison): "'Resettlement' used as Camouflage Language in Shooting Documents"
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:10 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Hmmmm, this kind of {!#%@} deniers six ways to Sunday (thanks to Jon Harrison): "'Resettlement' used as Camouflage Language in Shooting Documents"


And it establishes a clear precedent that can be cited in other cases. IIRC this has been covered on HC before.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:26 am

Uh-oh. Contemporary (3 September 1941) confirmation for Standartenführer Karl Jäger's mass murder activities in Lithuania: Gewecke: “orders from SS Colonel Jaeger in Kauen to liquidate all Jews in Schaulen . . . The liquidation was to take place on Monday.”
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:31 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Uh-oh. Contemporary (3 September 1941) confirmation for Standartenführer Karl Jäger's mass murder activities in Lithuania: Gewecke: “orders from SS Colonel Jaeger in Kauen to liquidate all Jews in Schaulen . . . The liquidation was to take place on Monday.”


Bu-bu-bu-but HAMAN!?!?!?!? Whauudabout HAMAN?

Spoiler:
:lol: :lol:

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:43 am

Yeah, a little problem here for the religious theory of Hamann, as Gewecke names Hamann as the person repeating Jäger's order to him. We may just have to abandon the Biblical interpretation of the genocide in Lithuania and go with . . . well, I don't know what Monstrous has left to try.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:29 am

I still can't belive that he seriously expected to makre a copherent argument out of that nonsense.,

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:20 am

bump for Monstrous
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:42 pm

What's the matter Monstrous - have they asked you to stop making a fool of yourself and them?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:33 pm

Monstrous is hiding in the weeds, he will jump out and start a new thread on the hopes people will forget his previous thread.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:56 am

God almighty, they are desperate. LOL.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:45 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:God almighty, they are desperate. LOL.


Indeed. They turn every speculation to 'evidence', he's so sure they make 'evakuiert' into 'exekutiert', and that's why the line goes out so far to the right. WTF?

Look at the first paragraph which ends with the words; "33,771 Juden exekutiert" (33,771 Jews executed). The word "exekutiert" sticks out so far to the extreme that it nearly touches the edge of the paper and is further to the right than any other word on the page. Is it possible that the orignal word in German had been "evakuiert" instead? I think so--and that undermines the entire meaning of the "document." "Exekutiert" contains just one more letter than the word "evakuiert"--but that is why it sticks out so far to the right.

What was an innocuous original German document was, I think, simply retyped on the same type of paper with a matching typewriter to make "evidence" of mass murder. The "true original" page (carbon or mimeographed copy, perhaps) was removed and replaced by the fake (carbon copy?). No signature or security stamp was even needed. Can Eric Hunt or Mark Weber ever understand that. Of course, not!


This desperate situation of Berg reminds me of the most smart phrase I've ever read in the 'Holocaust Denial Ridiculing Literature' (yes, my opinion is a special branch must be established, dealing only with entertaining articles and essays that make fun of stupid deniers; I even have in mind names of nominees for professors duties assigned for this special scholarship branch, seriously).

This one:

- Dear Isaac -- please don't forget to leak Document 495B-14 to the London Times on August 13, as we agreed. Signed, Abraham.

https://archive.is/IhW19#selection-461.0-465.16

It's an essay, I think, that deserves to be on top, for everyone to see:

Surely if people were employed to fabricate mountains of evidence as you claim, you must know some details about some of these things. You seem to have discovered this grand hoax that has fooled the world, surely a few names and places must be a minor feat for such geniuses.

http://www.phdn.org/archives/holocaust- ... hoax.shtml
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:30 pm

Your post should be Monstrous's epitaph.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:32 pm

Kamenets-Podolsk - Braham plus survey of sources
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:32 pm

More Babi Yar source material from Hans at HC - part 2: Testimonies
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:56 am

"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby NathanC » Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:17 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:More on the British and Monstrous's last desperate claims:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... barth.html
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/fo ... count=2286


The Black Rabbit pointed out that I was mistaken in my interpretation of Barth's testimony. I have acted accordingly and recanted my ISF post.

That said, he did provide a lot of useful information about Barth's interrogation and general British interrogation practices. Basically, they never asked him about Gas vans, and nor did their standard questionnaires ask about such Gas Vans. Barth volunteered it all on his own. I have updated my ISF post to reflect this.

Still doesn't help Monstrous or ESC's BS, though.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:43 am

thanks, Nathan
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:09 am

'' I was Interested in rule of law, not in how many men I could hang from a rope"
- Benjamin Ferencz

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:02 am

I thought to post this in the George Martin RIP thread but he was no rocker and it fits here: "Yevgeny Yevtushenko, Poet Who Stirred a Generation of Soviets, Dies at 83"
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:22 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I thought to post this in the George Martin RIP thread but he was no rocker and it fits here: "Yevgeny Yevtushenko, Poet Who Stirred a Generation of Soviets, Dies at 83"


Here, its place is here:

- Babi Yar / Yevgeniy Yevtushenko Poem / Alex Klurfeld Song

... no fiber of my body will ever forget this, until, for all of time, the last antisemites of this earth will be buried and forgotten ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOFBnwET3WE
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:24 am

HC blog article by Jon Harrison cites a number of statements from Goebbels' diary recording the mass murders in the occupied East during 1941.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:23 pm

More trouble for Monstrous, this time from Jon Harrison at HC, on Ukraine: Harrison's comments on Jeckeln raise the question, were the HSSPF reports also supposedly forged and Monstrous simply forgot to mention this? Here, Jeckeln reports nearly 38,000 executions in which 99% of the victims were Jews.

Harrison also cites EMs and quotes from EM 130:
Although we succeeded, particularly in smaller towns and villages, in bringing about a complete liquidation of the Jewish problem, nevertheless, again and again it has been observed in the larger cities that after such an action, all Jews have indeed been eradicated. But, when after a certain period of time a Kommando returns, the number of Jews still found in the city always surpasses considerably the number of executed Jews.

Anti-partisan actions? Really?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Xcalibur » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:27 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:More trouble for Monstrous, this time from Jon Harrison at HC, on Ukraine: Harrison's comments on Jeckeln raise the question, were the HSSPF reports also supposedly forged and Monstrous simply forgot to mention this? Here, Jeckeln reports nearly 38,000 executions in which 99% of the victims were Jews.

Harrison also cites EMs and quotes from EM 130:
Although we succeeded, particularly in smaller towns and villages, in bringing about a complete liquidation of the Jewish problem, nevertheless, again and again it has been observed in the larger cities that after such an action, all Jews have indeed been eradicated. But, when after a certain period of time a Kommando returns, the number of Jews still found in the city always surpasses considerably the number of executed Jews.

Anti-partisan actions? Really?


Um, didn't partisans usually have guns.... :lol:

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Xcalibur » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:09 am

Sigh... and wormy {!#%@} Ryan's Healthcare 2.0.... Jesus wept.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:10 pm

Speaking of Ponary (weren't we?), Engelking's book, discussed in the books thread, quotes at length from the testimony of yet another girl who was able to survive a mass shooting at Ponary. The girl was 19-year-old Ita Straż. She was taken to Ponary by car from which a Lithuanian "policeman" pulled her when it was her turn to be taken to the pit. In the evening, as she crawled from the pit, Straż met another survivor of the shooting, also a girl, of about her age. (Engelking, Such a Beautiful Sunny Day . . . , pp 53-55, 144; YVA 0.3/1354, unfortunately Engelking doesn't mention a date for this shooting - I will look at the YVA source for one if it is online)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:37 pm

Monstrous wrote:"Had the Germans planned the physical extermination of the Jewish population, they would of course have killed children and old people first; able-bodied adults would perhaps have been temporarily spared, because they could have been used as slave-laborers. As a matter of fact, solid documentary evidence shows that Jewish children and old people were not exterminated. . . .

An unwarranted assumption (explained in a number of posts in this thread) but anyway, on the topic of children in the actions in the occupied USSR . . .

Jon Harrison at HC, "Contemporary Reports of Killings in the USSR that included Children"
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:40 pm

Monstrous wrote:. . . Monstrous checked Metapedia. These arguments are squashed there:
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Posen_speeches

Sergey Romanov, comment in HC article:
And today [Faurisson] still finds followers, like the brainless neo-Nazi authors of Metapedia, who in their article about the 07.12.41 [NN] decree parrot the "nomen nescio" explanation, claiming that "Night and Fog" is a post-war invention. They even link to Gruchmann's article, apparently without ever having read it.

Pretty much as I've found with everything I've read at Metapedia. Good reading in Sergey Romanov's article, recommended.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:33 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:Is Monstrous really Monstrous? Is the "M" in (M)onstrous and (M)etapedia just a coincidence? Is Monstrous a (M)aster race (M)aster sockpuppeter? Is it all part of a marvelously mysterious mighty Monstrous master mega conspiracy?

Is Statistical (M)echanic Monstrous's sockpuppet? It that why S(M)'s argumentation is so poor? Monstrous has created a Straw (M)an Statistical Mechanic Believer in order to make the Believers look bad?


What thread have you been reading? Do you still parrot your inane nonsense on SK 1005 ...

"Another SK 1005 update" (from Sergey Romanov, at HC and now posting here)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:05 pm

"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:31 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:Is Monstrous really Monstrous? Is the "M" in (M)onstrous and (M)etapedia just a coincidence? Is Monstrous a (M)aster race (M)aster sockpuppeter? Is it all part of a marvelously mysterious mighty Monstrous master mega conspiracy?

Is Statistical (M)echanic Monstrous's sockpuppet? It that why S(M)'s argumentation is so poor? Monstrous has created a Straw (M)an Statistical Mechanic Believer in order to make the Believers look bad?


What thread have you been reading? Do you still parrot your inane nonsense on SK 1005 ...

"Another SK 1005 update" (from Sergey Romanov, at HC and now posting here)


HC just posted another update:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2016/02/once-more-with-feeling-deniers-and.html?m=1

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:28 am

Uh oh, more trouble for Monstrous and denial - again on Lithuania, this time from Ernst Jünger's diary, 30 March 1942, a German war hero, . No worries, anti-Semitic trolls, apparently Jünger didn't note the identity of the victims so it's ok.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:08 pm

random interesting point from Shneyer (1):

The 16th Lithuanian Infantry Division was established by the Soviets on 18 December 1941; the division was multiethnic with mostly. Russian leadership. Prior to 1944 nearly 30% of the division's members were Lithuanian Jews.

Good relations among the division's members began to sour as the liberation of Lithuania neared and "the division incorporated into its ranks people who had lived for three years under Nazi occupation." (p 190) The composition of the division changed, with the % of Jews dropping to about 10% in 1944, and solidarity among the soldiers within the division began to fray.. The new Lithuanian soldiers included "men who had served under the Nazis as policemen" in Lithuania; they were hostile to the remaining Jews and Russians. The first significant antisemitic incidents occurred. (p 191)

A Jewish soldier, recipient of the Hero of the Soviet Union award, Grigorii Ushpolis in his memoirs (p 189) observed that "it was difficult to maintain the former harmony and proper relations. On more than one occasion, the Jews carried out a spontaneous vigilante trial of those who had murdered their dear ones." (pp 191-192) No secrets in the 16th Infantry . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:18 pm

random interesting point from Shneyer (2), again in the spirit of what "everyone knew":

Jewish soldiers in the Red Army were perceived by their commanders and comrades as ultra-reliable. (p 194) As Sukhorukov, a former prisoner, told his comrade, a Jewish soldier named Braslavskii, in August 1941: "You can be trusted. You won't run off somewhere. I, on the other hand, might surrender to the Germans." In his memoir Braslavskii explained this, "I now understand what Sukhorukov meant. I am a Jew; that means I won't surrender. They didn't take Jews prisoner; they killed them on the spot . . ." ( p 199)

Another Jewish soldier in the Red Army, Grigorii Poliak, wrote in a letter describing a battle along the Vistula, "My buddies said, 'We are going to surrender but, Grisha, you can't because you're a Yid.' And they went over to the Germans. I remained with just one fellow from Kiev . . ." (p 200)

Shneyer records a number of such incidents, including situations in which Jewish soldiers preferred heroic suicidal death or killing themselves to falling into German hands, and concludes, "Evidently, the knowledge of what awaited Jews taken prisoner led some Jews, like many officers and politruks of the Red Amy, to commit suicide rather than let themselves be captured" (p 200) and notes that an antisemitic book (Evrei v SSSR) stated, "In the army the Jews did not display defeatist attitudes and fought conscientiously," which Shneyer attributes in part to awareness of what faced Jews who surrendered. (p 202)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:41 pm

random interesting point from Shneyer (3): Usually Prof August Hirt's correspondence with Himmler about his specimens collection (political commissars, Jews) is discussed in the context of the KLs, here Shneyer makes the utterly logical connection of that correspondence to the Commissar Order and includes a long quotation from it (9 February 1942) in the context of the liquidations of commissars and Jews. (p 207) In his discussion, Shneyer describes "a conscious blurring of boundaries between the concepts of commissar and Jew" and cites in this regard the German propaganda brochure "Information for Our Troops" ("It would be insulting to animals to call the features of these largelyJewish offspring [Soviet commissars] animal-like") (pp 206-207).

The key documents discussed by Shneyer (pp 203-213) to establish context for the liquidation of political commissars and Jews are the following, many of which we've mentioned previously in this thread:
1. the so-called Commissar Order (6 June 1941)
2. Special Order no. 1 supplementing Directive no. 21 of 19 May 1941 ("strict and decisive measures against Bolshevik agitators, partisans, saboteurs, and Jews . . ")
3. Heydrich's 2 July 1941 special directive, the section called "Execution" ("Jews who were party members or working in government service as well as other radical elements")
4. Operational Order no. 8, 17 July 1941, from Heydrich on annihilation of racially inferior captives (including Jews) in the POW camps; assigned to units of RSHA and SD in cooperation with Wehrmacht
5. Operational Order no. 14, 30 July 1941 (secrecy regarding "immediate annihilation" during the "purge that faced Soviet civilians and prisoners of war" in rear army areas, referencing Operational Order no. 8)
6. on Wehrmacht collaboration with RFSS and Heydrich, 13 March 1941 "instruction about special regions" for Directive no. 21, order of OKH 28 April 1941, "Directives for operational units of the head of the Security Police and the SD operating in prison camps" (dispatch of the units to the camps "according to the July 16, 1941, agreement between the head of the Security Police, the SD, and the OKW")

Shneyer shows also the postwar claims by some (e.g., Guderian, Mannstein) that the Commissar Order was never implemented in their commands were lies.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:04 pm

I'm just going to give you a general "thank you" for anything else you post from that book.
LOL

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:30 pm

LOL but where's Monstrous . . . Shneyer quotes some Soviet interrogations of German POWs that would really wind him up :)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:34 am

from Shneyer, March 1941 interrogation of German POW Wehrmacht Corporal Ernst Krause held by Soviets (p 224):

Krause testified, "I knew that there is an order to shoot political officers and Jews on the spot. The shootings were carried out not far from the front by a special unit. . . . I know that a total of at least eighty-ninety POWs were shot in August, over half of the soldiers and junior officers were Jews."

from Shneyer, testimony of German infantry private, Walter Pfeifer, given to Soviet interrogators (p 229):

Pfeiffer named Captain Maier, his division commander, who "ordered the shooting of all Jews from the POW transport that had arrived." It was a lieutenant, Neibert, who "carried out the order." Pfeifer said that "With my own eyes, I saw First Lieutenant Neibert . . .shoot eighty Jews in the course of one day."

Shneyer also quotes an interesting passage from EM no. 128 (3 November 1941) (pp 227-228). Here's a translation of the same passage, from Jewish Virtual Library (to save me typing!):
Only with respect to the Jewish problem could a complete understanding with junior Army officers not be reached until quite recently. This was most noticeable during the taking over of prisoner-of-war camps. As a particularly clear example, the conduct of a camp commander in Vin[n]itsa is to be mentioned. He strongly objected to the transfer of 362 Jewish prisoners-of-war carried out by his deputy, and even started court martial proceedings against the deputy and two other officers.

And:
Another difficulty was added by the order from the Army High Command prohibiting entry by the SD into the POW transit camps. These difficulties have probably been overcome by now due to a new order from the Army High Command. This order clearly states that the Wehrmacht has to cooperate in the solution of this problem . . .

Shneyer comments, "Whereas the commander of the infantry forces (Brauchitsch) somehow attempted to restrict the SD's selection activity in POW camps, the High Command (Keitel) encouraged it. There was good reason for Keitel's being sentenced to hanging at the Nuremberg trial." On the other hand, the Soviet forgery claim would have us believe that the Red forgers included information exculpatory to Brauchitsch, who was charged after the war with war crimes, and tarted up lack of cooperation in the killing process on the part of the OKH.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:51 am

HAHAHAHA! Monstrous proposes that Brauchitsch was an agent of the Communists all along!

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:51 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:From that trial, here is the testimony of Kurt Lindow, an RSHA officer, on the authenticity of the reports.

Lindow was captured by the Americans and interrogated by the British in 1945. He clarified for his interrogators one apparent anomaly in German record-keeping: file cards showing that Soviet POWs had been released from German POW camps (when these same POWs had seemingly neither arrived to their release place nor survived the war). According to Lindow (30 April 1945) there was an order authorities in the POW camps to select Jewish POWs and a process that was often followed: "POWs were first released on paper and then transferred to a concentration camp to be executed." (quoted in Shneyer, p 277)

Following Monstrous's logic, either Lindow here was somehow informed of what the Soviet forgers wanted to be said about the POWs camps and Jewish captives - or the Brits simply got dictation from the Soviets on what words to put into Lindow's mouth.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:08 pm

Another interesting citation in Shneyer (p 289), this one a letter of 28 February 1942 from Rosenberg to Keitel. The document is 081-PS, Red Series, v III, p 128. Again to save me typing I am using the wording from a PDF of vol III instead of Shneyer's translation.

The context is discussion of selections of Jewish POWs in German camps for liquidation and how the Germans often couldn't be bothered to distinguish "Jewish looking" prisoners from Jewish prisoners, a tendency which, coupled with extreme prejudice and hostility toward POWs from Central Asia and the Transcaucasus, led to abuse and outright mass murder on occasions of POWs from these regions.

Rosenberg was displeased and wrote as follows:

Image

I know of no such concern stated by Rosenberg about the Jewish liquidations. His protest against the “Asiatic” liqudiations aligns with his special viewpoint, at odds with that of Himmler and more importantly of the Führer, on the occupied East and the best policy towards the subject peoples in those regions.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927


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