Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Balsamo » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:03 pm

Nessie:
When you said "when the Nazis spoke about sending the Jews to the East, in no way they meant to let them living even as sub-citizens in the newly conquered territory" that was the point I was making. Deniers like to quote Korherr to back up the claim the Jews were actually being resettled. I think the Wannsee Minutes show that cannot have been so as the plan was to clear Nazi occupied territory of Jew
To be more precise, the original idea behind the "resettlement" lie, was the one of a Jewish Reservation zone in a place to be determined, and of course, not to let the Jews to live along, even as subclass citizens, among the population. And obviously, this needed to secure a zone from any potential external intervention, and therefore had to wait for a final victory to be implemented. Meanwhile, it meant Ghetto's and concentration camps, labor camps, labor squads, at least that what was being sold when in reality it did not last long before it meant mass murder.
The Minutes clearly shows that Heydrich did not give any practical details.
This explains why the "Reservation scheme" lasted so long among many peripheral authorities, that is outside the RSHA, if course.

One important element i stressed about in my previous posts, is that the global plan was indeed genocidal in the sense, and as it was the case in other genocidal policies, the final objective was a medium to long term extermination, so my whole theory, for which i found support in Brayard's work, is not meant to exonerate the German bureaucracy from the crime of genocide, but a genocide can be completed without systematic use of mass murder.
To understand this nuance, one of the merits of Brayard is to re-introduced the notion of "level of transgression".

Two examples to illustrate how some means of achieving a genocide are more acceptable than others, in this case direct mass murder.

You and other might have seen the movie "Papillon" with Steve MacQueen and Dustin Hoffman, about the french penitentiary system, which dated back to the 18th century, known as "Le Bagne" in Guyane.
By the mid 19th century, and given the rise of criminality, the authorities - in this case the second Empire of Napoleon III, decided to clean up France from its criminal by sending all criminal sentenced to "Forced Labor" to this South American colony. "Le Bagne" was in reality a network of about 30 or 40 kind of concentration camps, and not one single prison as the movie might suggest.
Of course, massive death penalties was not really an option as the population was quite tired of the use of the guillotine.
So the criminals were "deported" far away, and soon forgotten, while in fact, every sentenced above 3 to 5 years was just the same as the death penalty. As a matter of fact, life expectancy in those camps was from 3 to 5 years. But the transgression was less important for the judicial system, than the direct use of the guillotine, especially in a country still proud of its declaration of Human right. I do not recall the exact number but thousands of "criminals" were deported there every year for more than a century.
When the Bagne system was closed AFTER world war 2, actually only 3.000 prisoners returned.

To take a more "genocidal" example, and i forgot if it comes from Bloxham's Final Solution or his former book "the great game of Genocide", but the original plan regarding the Armenian genocide was to sent this "problematic population" to the desert, where they would actually disappear, from the condition or killed by the natives, which did not prevent clear mass murders and massacres of huge proportions.

In the same logic, the German imperial Army in Namibia did not shot every single of the 75.000 hereros, but while killing some of them, it pushed the tribes into the desert, sometimes poisoning the rare wells of water to speed thing up. Now contrary to a belief, there are still Hereros in Namibia today as there are still a few German settlers, and it is quite a safe country.

Or in order to go back to some Nazis reference, the idea of a global sterilization campaign of a target group would have resulted in a complete annihilation, but only on a longer time frame, and in a more "acceptable", understand "salable" way.

But i realize that i am derailing a bit, and that without an explanation of the global approach to Genocide, it cannot be fully understood.


Nessie:
I agree with you and would say that there was two Final Solutions,
:lol: :lol:
You must be the first one, congratulations... ;)
Last edited by Balsamo on Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:08 pm

But, I have to say, put here quite differently to the original statement of the thesis. Just sayin'.
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by montgomery » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:23 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:08 pm
But, I have to say, put here quite differently to the original statement of the thesis. Just sayin'.
And I have to say that it's obvious that the three of you are taking difficult questions that cause your minds problems that need to be explained away by reasoning to yourselves. You all have an obvious and visible need to erase the doubts and make everything work again.

But as the questions arise, it just gets more difficult to make it all work. A little less so with Balsamo because of his inferior ability to reason. In any event, it's interesting and instructive to those with an ability to read between the lines.

And of course it's a temporary attempt to ignore the threads where all the action takes place. The usual for this time of the day!

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Balsamo » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:19 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:08 pm
But, I have to say, put here quite differently to the original statement of the thesis. Just sayin'.
As you know, i have to translate my thoughts into English, but my main default is paradoxically to making too much effort to make those thoughts as clear as possible, while by adding constant - sometimes controversial details, i end up confusing things.

Many times, after re-reading my posts, i realize that what is perfectly clear and logical in my head, is not easy to be found and understood in my writing.

In this precise case, it is maybe because i was feeling to weak - i am getting better by the way ;) - to make my usual lengthy post, that i somehow managed to summarize properly for a change. :lol:

But i can assure you that the core idea was the same.

The fact that i tried to introduce Brayard's thinking into my own probably did not help.
Brayard, like in some way Bloxham, belongs to the category of Historians who like to add complex and "over-conceptualized" terms - a tendency proper to the french tradition probably to add more scientific covers to their works - when in reality history can very well be written using accessible words only.
In other words, Brayard's French adds even more difficulties to translation of a language which is difficult to translate into English in the first place. (and it goes both way).

Compared to French, English as well as German by the way, are much more precise languages. It means that you basically need more words in French than in both languages to express the same idea.
As i always say, French is very good for "literature", but less so for scientific works or philosophy. ;)

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:23 pm

Your idea was the same, yes, except I don't think you highlighted the secret conspiracy aspect this time around, as you did before ... but I was referring to Nessie's post and meant that Nessie's restatement of the earlier thesis was quite different to how I understood it. I didn't take the previous discussion to be about "two Final Solutions, with each one being able to be sub divided even further. Some means to get rid of the Jews were planned and others were ad hoc." But, again, maybe I misunderstood.
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by montgomery » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:30 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:19 pm
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:08 pm
But, I have to say, put here quite differently to the original statement of the thesis. Just sayin'.
As you know, i have to translate my thoughts into English, but my main default is paradoxically to making too much effort to make those thoughts as clear as possible, while by adding constant - sometimes controversial details, i end up confusing things.

Many times, after re-reading my posts, i realize that what is perfectly clear and logical in my head, is not easy to be found and understood in my writing.

In this precise case, it is maybe because i was feeling to weak - i am getting better by the way ;) - to make my usual lengthy post, that i somehow managed to summarize properly for a change. :lol:

But i can assure you that the core idea was the same.

The fact that i tried to introduce Brayard's thinking into my own probably did not help.
Brayard, like in some way Bloxham, belongs to the category of Historians who like to add complex and "over-conceptualized" terms - a tendency proper to the french tradition probably to add more scientific covers to their works - when in reality history can very well be written using accessible words only.
In other words, Brayard's French adds even more difficulties to translation of a language which is difficult to translate into English in the first place. (and it goes both way).

Compared to French, English as well as German by the way, are much more precise languages. It means that you basically need more words in French than in both languages to express the same idea.
As i always say, French is very good for "literature", but less so for scientific works or philosophy. ;)
You do remarkably well and any small errors are taken into consideration and are excused by those of us who appreciate your intent. But the issue is, in no language can the lack of substantive evidence to support the holocaust legend, by hidden. And the doubts of the holocaust promoters will come through loud and clear.

So your contributions are valued by me especially. And of course all those who 'aren't' Americans are valued because their minds are not slammed shut like a steel trap.

If my colloguialism is confusing to you just ask for clarification. But above all, refrain from personal insults against those with whom you disagree. That will always be your biggest problem, as opposed to translations.

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by montgomery » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:34 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:23 pm
Your idea was the same, yes, except I don't think you highlighted the secret conspiracy aspect this time around, as you did before ... but I was referring to Nessie's post and meant that Nessie's restatement of the earlier thesis was quite different to how I understood it. I didn't take the previous discussion to be about "two Final Solutions, with each one being able to be sub divided even further. Some means to get rid of the Jews were planned and others were ad hoc." But, again, maybe I misunderstood.
It would have been very difficult to misunderstand. And he doesn't have to ask permission from you on what his opinions are going to be. Maybe you used to be the little dictator boss on this forum but you aren't anymore. Your own demeanor caused you to be demoted.

And how about that champion promoter, Elie Weisel? What a bloody mees eh!

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Balsamo » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:09 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:23 pm
Your idea was the same, yes, except I don't think you highlighted the secret conspiracy aspect ... I meant that Nessie's restatement of the earlier thesis was quite different to it. I didn't understand the previous discussion to be about "two Final Solutions, with each one being able to be sub divided even further. Some means to get rid of the Jews were planned and others were ad hoc." But, again, maybe I misunderstood.
:lol:
That is why i don't expect Nessie to fully agree with me!

Yeah...It seems that we have quite a good example of a "linguistic" misunderstanding. It is obvious that the term "conspiracy" in English, and i guess especially in "American", a very different connotation as the word "complot" in French.
And also probably because i mistranslated the term in the first place.
Actually, a "complot" means a "plot" while we would, again in French, use the term "conspiration" to express the idea of "conspiracy".

I spoke about "two final Solutions" because - and i admitted that i should have used the term "parallel" instead - because both co-existed with no "unnecessary" communication between the two categories of "Actors".
I meant that the RSHA ( i use the term the three H.H.H) took upon itself to organize the "mass murder" policy without sharing this information, while the majority of the peripheral authorities were confined in doing their job of "gathering" and "deporting" the Jews as they were told.

Which is the reason i asked about Laval.
The question being: Did the news that the deportations organized all over Western Europe during the summer of 1942 was mainly leading to massive immediate extermination reach the local actors - i am excluding the member of the RSHA of course - by the time when the main massive deportations from those western territories took place?

My position is known.

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:12 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:09 pm
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:23 pm
Your idea was the same, yes, except I don't think you highlighted the secret conspiracy aspect ... I meant that Nessie's restatement of the earlier thesis was quite different to it. I didn't understand the previous discussion to be about "two Final Solutions, with each one being able to be sub divided even further. Some means to get rid of the Jews were planned and others were ad hoc." But, again, maybe I misunderstood.
:lol:
That is why i don't expect Nessie to fully agree with me!

Yeah...It seems that we have quite a good example of a "linguistic" misunderstanding. It is obvious that the term "conspiracy" in English, and i guess especially in "American", a very different connotation as the word "complot" in French.
And also probably because i mistranslated the term in the first place.
Actually, a "complot" means a "plot" while we would, again in French, use the term "conspiration" to express the idea of "conspiracy".

I spoke about "two final Solutions" because - and i admitted that i should have used the term "parallel" instead - because both co-existed with no "unnecessary" communication between the two categories of "Actors".
I meant that the RSHA ( i use the term the three H.H.H) took upon itself to organize the "mass murder" policy without sharing this information, while the majority of the peripheral authorities were confined in doing their job of "gathering" and "deporting" the Jews as they were told.

Which is the reason i asked about Laval.
The question being: Did the news that the deportations organized all over Western Europe during the summer of 1942 was mainly leading to massive immediate extermination reach the local actors - i am excluding the member of the RSHA of course - by the time when the main massive deportations from those western territories took place?

My position is known.
"Plot" doesn't make it any better, for me :)

Laval: I have already answered a few times! I don't see the question about Laval, given his status, as salient. You know my position on the networks in the Third Reich and that I don't see the dichotomy you do. Back to our regularly scheduled programming!
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by montgomery » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:18 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:09 pm
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:23 pm
Your idea was the same, yes, except I don't think you highlighted the secret conspiracy aspect ... I meant that Nessie's restatement of the earlier thesis was quite different to it. I didn't understand the previous discussion to be about "two Final Solutions, with each one being able to be sub divided even further. Some means to get rid of the Jews were planned and others were ad hoc." But, again, maybe I misunderstood.
:lol:
That is why i don't expect Nessie to fully agree with me!

Yeah...It seems that we have quite a good example of a "linguistic" misunderstanding. It is obvious that the term "conspiracy" in English, and i guess especially in "American", a very different connotation as the word "complot" in French.
And also probably because i mistranslated the term in the first place.
Actually, a "complot" means a "plot" while we would, again in French, use the term "conspiration" to express the idea of "conspiracy".

I spoke about "two final Solutions" because - and i admitted that i should have used the term "parallel" instead - because both co-existed with no "unnecessary" communication between the two categories of "Actors".
I meant that the RSHA ( i use the term the three H.H.H) took upon itself to organize the "mass murder" policy without sharing this information, while the majority of the peripheral authorities were confined in doing their job of "gathering" and "deporting" the Jews as they were told.

Which is the reason i asked about Laval.
The question being: Did the news that the deportations organized all over Western Europe during the summer of 1942 was mainly leading to massive immediate extermination reach the local actors - i am excluding the member of the RSHA of course - by the time when the main massive deportations from those western territories took place?

My position is known.
A "plot" is a perfect word to describe a "conspiracy". You're trying to hard to appease a contrary mutt.

mutt (urban dictionary)
1) (censored)

2) A dog of many mixed breeds.
(censored because of an indecent description)

I have a dog who is of so many different breeds that he is considered a mutt.

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Balsamo » Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:20 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:12 pm
Balsamo wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:09 pm
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:23 pm
Your idea was the same, yes, except I don't think you highlighted the secret conspiracy aspect ... I meant that Nessie's restatement of the earlier thesis was quite different to it. I didn't understand the previous discussion to be about "two Final Solutions, with each one being able to be sub divided even further. Some means to get rid of the Jews were planned and others were ad hoc." But, again, maybe I misunderstood.
:lol:
That is why i don't expect Nessie to fully agree with me!

Yeah...It seems that we have quite a good example of a "linguistic" misunderstanding. It is obvious that the term "conspiracy" in English, and i guess especially in "American", a very different connotation as the word "complot" in French.
And also probably because i mistranslated the term in the first place.
Actually, a "complot" means a "plot" while we would, again in French, use the term "conspiration" to express the idea of "conspiracy".

I spoke about "two final Solutions" because - and i admitted that i should have used the term "parallel" instead - because both co-existed with no "unnecessary" communication between the two categories of "Actors".
I meant that the RSHA ( i use the term the three H.H.H) took upon itself to organize the "mass murder" policy without sharing this information, while the majority of the peripheral authorities were confined in doing their job of "gathering" and "deporting" the Jews as they were told.

Which is the reason i asked about Laval.
The question being: Did the news that the deportations organized all over Western Europe during the summer of 1942 was mainly leading to massive immediate extermination reach the local actors - i am excluding the member of the RSHA of course - by the time when the main massive deportations from those western territories took place?

My position is known.
"Plot" doesn't make it any better, for me :)

Laval: I have already answered a few times! I don't see the question about Laval, given his status, as salient. You know my position on the networks in the Third Reich and that I don't see the dichotomy you do. Back to our regularly scheduled programming!
Did you noticed that the "thanks" button is gone? That's a shame.

Yes, but i think that some of the key elements have been lost in the flood of our exchanges. I also know that agree with you one more than one points, and that our basic, although essential differences, lies in small details. The scope of common knowledge of the true nature, that is the true means in order to solve the Jewish problem, being one of them, while we mostly agreed on the network that made the process work, the question being as said the level of knowledge of each cog in the chain.
So i would appreciate if you could refresh my memory concerning Laval. That could close this first chapter, before being re-opened after a new approach... :D , that is as promised earlier, a more global approach to genocide using Bloxham in a new thread.
Of course, it is going to take some times, so there will plenty of times for the regular scheduled programming. :lol:

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:48 pm

Laval, from a recent post in part summarizing posts from two years ago or whenever:
When we last discussed this, I said that Laval was aware only of IIRC something very bad happening in the east, I think I wrote of ill or bad treatment of the Jews in the East . . . and that, in contrast to the Tiso government, never sought to find out what was happening with the Jews deported from France. But I never wrote that Laval was brought into the planning for the murder, I know of no evidence for that. I told you point blank that I didn’t dispute that Laval wasn't part of the planning or details for the extermination at the eastern end of the operation - but also that his deception, self-deception, willful blindness, and lack of concern for the consequences of his decisions were beyond the pale. I can't recall where but I think I cited Marrus & Paxton or some other book on his iffy knowledge; I recall mentioning that Seibel had Vichy out of the loop on details. And I know for sure that I pointed out, critically, that Klarsfeld said Vichy had criminal knowledge of the details but had failed to provide evidence that Vichy had been brought in on it.

I don't think that I was unclear at all.

So, no, I've don't now have a new idea - that Laval had intimate, pre-knowledge of how the Jews sent east were "handled."

Since our somewhat-long-ago discussion of this, I've read maybe a half dozen more books on France during the war. Despite Morgan's very harsh judgments of Laval, and his dark insinuation, I haven't changed my mind. I did read a vague assertion in one book that Laval had made lackluster inquiries of German officials about the actual destination of the Jews. That didn't change my mind either.
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Balsamo » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:28 am

Well, sorry, i missed that post. And it quite fits with my memory, but given that we kind of had those discussions across a bunch of threads, and as you said, it has been a while since it all started, i did not feel like to go through all of the posts.

So we did agree on that, which is why i was a bit suspicious... LOL

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:07 am

LMAO
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Balmoral95 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:58 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:07 am
LMAO
Think that's funny? I'm going to get VFX to fix this tomorrow.... We'll see what HE has to say about it....

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:51 pm

On the basis of how the mass murder of Jews was carried out one could almost divide the Holocaust east and west. But not how Brayard seems to, as articulated in this thread. At a gross level of generalization you could say that the mass murder east of the Bug River was by mass shooting and personal, face to face, old fangled, whereas west of the Bug, it was in gas chambers and using more industrialized means that extermination occurred. This division disrupts in particular the unity of Snyder’s “bloodlands” as well as looks at the killing a bit differently to the thesis in this thread, not dividing the programs into two parallel final solutions but seeing regional differences, again, based on the war, German military success, the occupation, and the overall nature of German conquest and rule.
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:20 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:51 pm
On the basis of how the mass murder of Jews was carried out one could almost divide the Holocaust east and west. But not how Brayard seems to, as articulated in this thread. At a gross level of generalization you could say that the mass murder east of the Bug River was by mass shooting and personal, face to face, old fangled, whereas west of the Bug, it was in gas chambers and using more industrialized means that extermination occurred. This division disrupts in particular the unity of Snyder’s “bloodlands” as well as looks at the killing a bit differently to the thesis in this thread, not dividing the programs into two parallel final solutions but seeing regional differences, again, based on the war, German military success, the occupation, and the overall nature of German conquest and rule.
Not sure if I’m reading the above right but Snyder does make that differentiation. He divides it at the “Molotov-Ribbentrop Line” where mass shootings occurred East of that line and gassings to the West (I can’t remember if he notes exceptions to this or not).

Snyder’s look at the “Bloodlands” notes the zones where enormous loss of life occurred outside of military deaths, so, the Holodomor, large scale extra-judicial killings of ethnic minorities in Western USSR, the vicious partisan war in Belarus, the mass shootings of Jews in the USSR and the Extermination Camps in Poland.

I do remember that criticism of “Bloodlands” did center around Snyder’s failure to mention places like Yugoslavia where mass killings also occurred or other areas in the USSR where famine occurred. Critics felt his line was arbitrary.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Nessie » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:37 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:03 pm
Nessie:
When you said "when the Nazis spoke about sending the Jews to the East, in no way they meant to let them living even as sub-citizens in the newly conquered territory" that was the point I was making. Deniers like to quote Korherr to back up the claim the Jews were actually being resettled. I think the Wannsee Minutes show that cannot have been so as the plan was to clear Nazi occupied territory of Jew
To be more precise, the original idea behind the "resettlement" lie, was the one of a Jewish Reservation zone in a place to be determined, and of course, not to let the Jews to live along, even as subclass citizens, among the population.
The only certainty from day one (as in the Nazis were fully in power, so 1934) is that the Jews were to be no more in Germany. The how, even then was somewhat ad hoc, with the German Jewish population choosing between/facing up to voluntary escaping, paying their way out of Germany, being forced to flee, remaining and trying to muddle through and then many were imprisoned.

Where the Jews went was pretty much up to them, whether they hoped for a Palestinian homeland, went over the border to the Netherlands or got into the UK or USA. I wonder how many thought Madagascar was a possible new place to live?
And obviously, this needed to secure a zone from any potential external intervention, and therefore had to wait for a final victory to be implemented. Meanwhile, it meant Ghetto's and concentration camps, labor camps, labor squads, at least that what was being sold when in reality it did not last long before it meant mass murder.
The Minutes clearly shows that Heydrich did not give any practical details.
That is why I regard Wannsee as a monitoring group whose role was more to report on progress, rather than determine what was to be done and issue orders. That is why this was recorded in the minutes;

"In the meantime the Reichsführer-SS and Chief of the German Police had prohibited emigration of Jews due to the dangers of an emigration in wartime and due to the possibilities of the East."

Orders were coming from the very top. The orders were not being determined at Wannsee.

"The handling of the problem in the individual countries will meet with difficulties due to the attitude and outlook of the people there, especially in Hungary and Rumania. Thus, for example, even today the Jew can buy documents in Rumania that will officially prove his foreign citizenship."

They noted the problem, without issuing any instruction on a solution.
Nessie:
I agree with you and would say that there was two Final Solutions,
:lol: :lol:
You must be the first one, congratulations... ;)
I think that because of;

"III. Another possible solution of the problem has now taken the place of emigration, i.e. the evacuation of the Jews to the East, provided that the Führer gives the appropriate approval in advance."

The Jews in the east were already being murdered, the Jews in the west had been allowed to get away, that was stopping (with exceptions when there was good money to be made and with the Danes).
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Nessie » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:43 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:51 pm
On the basis of how the mass murder of Jews was carried out one could almost divide the Holocaust east and west. But not how Brayard seems to, as articulated in this thread. At a gross level of generalization you could say that the mass murder east of the Bug River was by mass shooting and personal, face to face, old fangled, whereas west of the Bug, it was in gas chambers and using more industrialized means that extermination occurred. This division disrupts in particular the unity of Snyder’s “bloodlands” as well as looks at the killing a bit differently to the thesis in this thread, not dividing the programs into two parallel final solutions but seeing regional differences, again, based on the war, German military success, the occupation, and the overall nature of German conquest and rule.
I think another distinction between western and eastern Jews is that those in the east were poorer, Slavic and had less local support. Say the Jews of Latvia had been able to escape overnight to Sweden, I suspect there would have been repercussions for those in the Einsatzgruppen and any Latvian authorities held responsible. Whereas in Denmark, the Danes were held in a higher regard.
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:48 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:20 pm
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:51 pm
On the basis of how the mass murder of Jews was carried out one could almost divide the Holocaust east and west. But not how Brayard seems to, as articulated in this thread. At a gross level of generalization you could say that the mass murder east of the Bug River was by mass shooting and personal, face to face, old fangled, whereas west of the Bug, it was in gas chambers and using more industrialized means that extermination occurred. This division disrupts in particular the unity of Snyder’s “bloodlands” as well as looks at the killing a bit differently to the thesis in this thread, not dividing the programs into two parallel final solutions but seeing regional differences, again, based on the war, German military success, the occupation, and the overall nature of German conquest and rule.
Not sure if I’m reading the above right but Snyder does make that differentiation. He divides it at the “Molotov-Ribbentrop Line” where mass shootings occurred East of that line and gassings to the West (I can’t remember if he notes exceptions to this or not).
Thanks I was going by memory - objections to Snyder's bloodlands were that the Soviet camps, deportations, etc were not actually centered in the bloodlands, how he treats the Holodomor (vague memory on this but suffice to say the regional framework doesn't work), and that the bloodlands were not unitary in terms of the Nazi exterminations. If Snyder does make that last distinction, my bad - although it doesn't quite fit his regional concept. But as to the "two FS" thesis, the point still stands, I think, different means of murder east and west of the Bug - as opposed to a unitary "East."
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:20 pm
Snyder’s look at the “Bloodlands” notes the zones where enormous loss of life occurred outside of military deaths, so, the Holodomor, large scale extra-judicial killings of ethnic minorities in Western USSR, the vicious partisan war in Belarus, the mass shootings of Jews in the USSR and the Extermination Camps in Poland.
Right, but there's that Bug R dividing line, sort of - and the Holodomor doesn't work at all for me as part of this regional concept and dynamic, as it wasn't only a Ukraine thing and the dynamic (economic reform attacking the peasantry as a whole) was both different and unrelated to the crescendo of violence in the WWII era. The situation in WWII has to do with the reach of the Nazi military and its progress in expanding its territory and control - how it governed where it conquered. Also, on the Soviet side, the Gulag wasn't even focused in the bloodlands; Stalin's deportations were from border regions - and not just in the bloodlands, like the Volga Germans and Finns, {!#%@}, I think Stalin deported Koreans in the far East. Back to the Nazi side of the ledger, there are Greece and Serbia, which don't fit, either.
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:20 pm
I do remember that criticism of “Bloodlands” did center around Snyder’s failure to mention places like Yugoslavia where mass killings also occurred or other areas in the USSR where famine occurred. Critics felt his line was arbitrary.
Yeah, I would obviously agree with those criticisms.

Not trying to take this off to "bloodlands," I actually just mentioned Snyder as an afterthought, I would say that, for me, three problems with his book were that 1) the Nazi conquest and governance aspect is downplayed, 2) the Nazi killing zone didn't coincide with the region, 3) the Soviet zone of extreme violence was even more so inside and outside the region. But it has been a long time since I read that book, and I admit I didn't really "bite into" it that deeply.
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:51 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:48 pm


Thanks I was going by memory - objections to Snyder's bloodlands were that the Soviet camps, deportations, etc were not actually centered in the bloodlands, how he treats the Holodomor (vague memory on this but suffice to say the regional framework doesn't work), and that the bloodlands were not unitary in terms of the Nazi exterminations. If Snyder does make that last distinction, my bad - although it doesn't quite fit his regional concept. But as to the "two FS" thesis, the point still stands, I think, different means of murder east and west of the Bug - as opposed to a unitary "East."
Might be skipping ahead a bit but Snyder specifically looked at areas occupied at one point by both the USSR and Nazi Germany. This includes Poland (at one point jointly), the Baltics, Western Russia (including Belarus) and the Ukraine. So, not Greece or Siberia. But Snyder didn’t include Hungary, Yugoslavia or Germany so I think some of these complaints are valid.
Right, but there's that Bug R dividing line, sort of - and the Holodomor doesn't work at all for me as part of this regional concept and dynamic, as it wasn't only a Ukraine thing and the dynamic (economic reform attacking the peasantry as a whole) was both different and unrelated to the crescendo of violence in the WWII era.
The Bug works in a way but Snyder focused on the “killing fields” occupied by both.
Snyder makes the point that both the USSR and Nazi Germany used hunger as a weapon. Both regimes also used mass shootings (though the Soviets hid that better) and mass deportations. The difference is that Nazi Germany used gas to murder a large percentage of victims.

Also, on the Soviet side, the Gulag wasn't even focused in the bloodlands;
The Gulag operated like the German Concentration Camps in the 1930’s, brutal places but not used for extermination. We all agree on that distinction. IMO Snyder was correct to leave that out because they weren’t part of the “killing fields” that were occupied by both regimes.
Stalin's deportations were from border regions - and not just in the bloodlands, like the Volga Germans and Finns, {!#%@}, I think Stalin deported Koreans in the far East. Back to the Nazi side of the ledger, there are Greece and Serbia, which don't fit, either.
I don’t want to belabor this too much... :D

The deportations were never about extermination, even the deportations of Poles and Jews on the German side of Poland were about removing an unwanted population and not about killing them (early on, 1939-1940). Stalin looked at deportations as punishment or eliminating a security threat and not wholesale mass murder. That’s where Snyder draws his line.
I would say that, for me, three problems with his book were that 1) the Nazi conquest and governance aspect is downplayed, 2) the Nazi killing zone didn't coincide with the region, 3) the Soviet zone of extreme violence was even more so inside and outside the region. But it has been a long time since I read that book, and I admit I didn't really "bite into" it that deeply.
I’m playing devil’s advocate to a degree. I think the criticism of the book is certainly valid. I thought the book was good and helped introduce me to aspects of the Great Purge I didn’t know much about. The same with the Holodomor (Snyder never uses that word, BTW).

I think the book is a good introduction to the region and time period but it does have its flaws. I think anyone who reads it should take the next step and do deeper research into the subject matter.
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:07 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:51 pm
. . . brutal places but not used for extermination. . . . the “killing fields” . . . The deportations were never about extermination . . . removing an unwanted population and not about killing them . . .
Difference here is that I'm not thinking only of mass extermination (killing fields) but of mass violence in different forms. The context in which mass killing comes about. The map of sites of mass violence and mass crimes doesn't coincide with the region - and the regional concept doesn't seem very explanatory to me. This focus on mass murder could be another flaw, in my view, in Snyder, as mass killing doesn't exist in isolation. We don't look at Nazi mass murder in isolation from other aspects of the Third Reich, especially the persecution of the Jews and its development.

Again, the region doesn't seem to me a strong concept, not against a concept like the progress of German conquest and governance. Also, as an aside, neither was the Holodomor IMO an extermination program per se; that the famine led to 6-7m deaths (IIRC) and was human created doesn't make it a program for the systematic extermination of a people. The more you play devil's advocate, the more I remember why Snyder turned me off so much, :)

But honestly, I wasn't trying to do a Snyder book review - rather to share another way of dividing east/west that I thought more useful, to me at least, than Brayard's.
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Balsamo » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:19 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:51 pm
On the basis of how the mass murder of Jews was carried out one could almost divide the Holocaust east and west. But not how Brayard seems to, as articulated in this thread. At a gross level of generalization you could say that the mass murder east of the Bug River was by mass shooting and personal, face to face, old fangled, whereas west of the Bug, it was in gas chambers and using more industrialized means that extermination occurred. This division disrupts in particular the unity of Snyder’s “bloodlands” as well as looks at the killing a bit differently to the thesis in this thread, not dividing the programs into two parallel final solutions but seeing regional differences, again, based on the war, German military success, the occupation, and the overall nature of German conquest and rule.
Thanks for the summary.
I see that Brayard is still part of the problem, and especially how i might have articulated in this thread. To my discharge, as i said, the book itself is not easy to be inserted into a discussion.
His thinking is based on documents showing that very important sphere, even among the top Nazi players, were not in the known about the real fate of the Jews sent from Germany, with the exception of the execution of oct-nov 41, which actually created some fus
Among them:
- The Stuckart letter which has been not convincingly dismissed.
- the correspondence between the diplomats in charge of the deportation of the Jews in Slovakia and Eichmann's office, letters asking why the hell a delegation from the Slovakian government could not visit the camps where the Slovakian Jews were supposed to be living. And of course Eichmann's office responses are just surrealistic, saying basically "There is nothing we can do right now, but we'll arrange something as soon as we can"...(not a real quote actually), and this surrealistic correspondence will keep going well into 1943!
- Some otherwise inexplicable entries in Goebbels diary, even after the famous March entries.
- The contents of the following conference after Wannsee in January 1942, and the simple fact that the case of the Mischlinge had been settled a few weeks later in a single conference about the Jews in the East, while the same subject about the German Jews actually was never to be concluded (and that would include most of the Mischlinge in the western territories by the way).
- A new reading of the Posen speech in which Himmler admitted the difficulty in Germany where every "Parteigenosse" had their "Prima Jude" and basically the admission that the SS had alone assumed the task of solving the Jewish Problem, by murder but with "integrity"...blahblah...

To this i can add that the knowledge of the reality of the deportation (that is mass murder in the East) had not reached the authorities there, and not only those of the local government, but also in Belgium (that is until proven otherwise:

-For France, we have actually seen that the only document that would prove that the Vichy Regime knew about the systematic mass murders was this silly "protest of the Consistory" allegedly written in August 42, allegedly sent to every authorities according to some authors, while in fine it was only decided to go in person to protest verbally to Laval who was not even available on that day...Now, this bloody piece of paper was the only element used in the case of the later Papon trial (or was it Bousquet?) that was supposed "prove that the Vichy Regime" Knew.

- For Belgium, during the trial organized by the Belgian Justice of the leaders of the MBH, von Falkenhausen and SS-Gruppenfuhrer Reeder, the prosecution could not prove that both knew the final fate of the Jews sent to Auschwitz, even after years of instructions and even without finding some "lie-witness" so dear to Deniers.
And contrary to the post war German courts of Justice which could be suspected of kind of sympathy, this argument can certainly not be applied to the Belgian Justice which was one of the most severe in the Western European sphere: 500.000 suspects of collaboration interned, 58.000 indicted, 57.000 found guilty, over 1600 sentenced to death, a many hundreds executed. So had the prosecution found something both would have been hanged right away. Instead they got a 12 years sentenced.

- ITALY: In another thread, we have also seen how Himmler lied to Mussolini when he tried to press for the deportation of the Jews from Italy. In fine, he would have to wait for the Duce to become a puppet in order to deport the Italian Jews.
I cannot locate the thread where this was discussed, but Mussolini himself asked the matter to be investigated.

Just to give a few examples i can remember right now, but there are more.

- One could also add the difference in the Operating mode between a convoy sent from the Dossin barracks ( Caserne Dossin) and one from Bialystok, the first one traveling in third class wagon, and not in cattle wagons.
- The camouflage used in form of convocation for work instead of just being rounded up.
- The relative lack of success, actually, even in tiny Belgium, even though 25.000 people will be deported out of 45.000 counted by the German, while actually the real number was closer to 67.000...and considering that about 2/3 of that number will actually be done within the 3 first months (August-october 42) before the operation to be ordered to stop by the MBH for disrupting the order!

I realize that we have gone through some of those points before, Stat, but there is a new participant, and some of those points have never been really discussed.

So it is not just a difference of how the victims were killed, actually i even wonder where it comes from, as tests for using gas instead of mass shooting had been done long before the first western Jew was sent to "the East".

I realize very well that none of those observations have an explanatory power, but neither has your formula of generalities "based on the war, German military success, the occupation, and the overall nature of German conquest and rule." Each point should be dig further.

It is also the main problem with Brayard, he does not really explain things, but draws a conclusion from his observations, although his "Transgression theory" makes sense to me.
Snyder does in the right direction, but his study suffers from his introduction of the Soviet crimes along those of the Nazis. To identify common patterns does not mean one has to compare the crimes, but it has been a long time since i read Bloodland, and there not much left of it in my memory, which i take as a sign.

Which is why i like Bloxham, who takes a more global approach, to explain why 1./ the killing took place in the East 2./ why the success was much greater on this side of Europe.
Now i know that is my duty to present this approach - and it is not going to be an easy task.

Again, we don't disagree with the Nazis intent to include all the European Jews in the Final Solution as it actually developed, the issue is that the Nazis who had this intention and who followed the plan the best they COULD, did not share their plans to those who did not need to know. Therefore, it is unthinkable that at Wannsee, discussions were about - and which is what Eichmann testimony suggests - the best way to kill the Jews, while drinking cognac, and all that BS.

It is even improbable that the word "murder" has even been pronounced during the meeting, it is just impossible that the secrecy could have been kept for so long had that been the case. (Brayard takes the example of operation T4 which leaked in a matter of weeks).
If that is the case - that is that those State Secretaries were not told that the new final solution was basically to murder all the European Jews as soon as possible - directly or delayed (through labor) - if it is confirmed that some authorities, especially at the western outskirt of the Nazi occupied Europe - did not know the true nature of the means that were used to solve the Jewish problem, then, as Brayard, concludes, it can only be called a PLOT by the RSHA and the Head of the Nazi State, involving only those who needed to know.

Now, Nessie knows a bit more without having to real those heavy pages... ;)

PS: Posting this before reading Jeffk's post.

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Balsamo » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:34 pm

Jeffk:
Might be skipping ahead a bit but Snyder specifically looked at areas occupied at one point by both the USSR and Nazi Germany. This includes Poland (at one point jointly), the Baltics, Western Russia (including Belarus) and the Ukraine. So, not Greece or Siberia. But Snyder didn’t include Hungary, Yugoslavia or Germany so I think some of these complaints are valid.
This is what i remember, and in that he is missing the point. Right idea but one can question the inherent logic of his methodology.
The good point including that as a matter of fact those territories, Poland, the Baltic States, etc, had no existence in the eyes of both Hitler and Stalin, which of course removed a lot of barriers for their actions, but again, finding common patterns does not mean comparing apples and oranges.

Statmec:
Difference here is that I'm not thinking only of mass extermination (killing fields) but of mass violence in different forms. The context in which mass killing comes about. The map of sites of mass violence and mass crimes doesn't coincide with the region - and the regional concept doesn't seem very explanatory to me. This focus on mass murder could be another flaw, in my view, in Snyder, as mass killing doesn't exist in isolation. We don't look at Nazi mass murder in isolation from other aspects of the Third Reich, especially the persecution of the Jews and its development.
Good remarks, especially regarding "political violence" and i agree, Snyder's Map is based on pure choice from him.

Statmec:
Again, the region doesn't seem to me a strong concept, not against a concept like the progress of German conquest and governance. Also, as an aside, neither was the Holodomor IMO an extermination program per se; that the famine led to 6-7m deaths (IIRC) and was human created doesn't make it a program for the systematic extermination of a people. The more you play devil's advocate, the more I remember why Snyder turned me off so much, :)
Actually, the region concept make sense, just not Snyder's region.
I quote this actually to keep it in mind as it will serve in further discussion.

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:37 pm

>> Actually, the region concept make sense, just not Snyder's region.

I agree, poorly stated on my part; when you wrote, "Snyder's Map is based on pure choice from him," I thought to myself, "I should have put it that way." A different regional concept could make sense, in theory, but on this question - I'm sure we won't agree on this - I still would look more to the progress of German conquest, the borders and governance they established, the organizations and individuals in power in various areas - and how this interacted with the societies encountered.
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:42 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:07 pm

Difference here is that I'm not thinking only of mass extermination (killing fields) but of mass violence in different forms. The context in which mass killing comes about. The map of sites of mass violence and mass crimes doesn't coincide with the region - and the regional concept doesn't seem very explanatory to me. This focus on mass murder could be another flaw, in my view, in Snyder, as mass killing doesn't exist in isolation. We don't look at Nazi mass murder in isolation from other aspects of the Third Reich, especially the persecution of the Jews and its development.
I get it and I agree.
Again, the region doesn't seem to me a strong concept, not against a concept like the progress of German conquest and governance. Also, as an aside, neither was the Holodomor IMO an extermination program per se; that the famine led to 6-7m deaths (IIRC) and was human created doesn't make it a program for the systematic extermination of a people. The more you play devil's advocate, the more I remember why Snyder turned me off so much, :)
I agree about the Holodomor. I don’t think it really fits as a genocide.

Like you I didn’t want to turn this into a book review. I look at the book more favorably than you but it isn’t something I’d recommend to someone knowledgeable about the subject.

Now I won’t throw this off-topic anymore... :lol:
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:09 am

LOL and hey there wasn't a single copy pasta from CW Porter!
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:45 am

Ah, the blessed silence....
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Denying-History » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:47 am

"Snyder and Holodomor"

And you thought you could hide this from me? :)
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:48 pm
Thanks I was going by memory - objections to Snyder's bloodlands were that the Soviet camps, deportations, etc were not actually centered in the bloodlands...
Mind he only said 4 of 6 million deaths from the Soviets were related to the actual territory of the "bloodlands". So this really isn't a criticism now is it?
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:48 pm
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:20 pm
Snyder’s look at the “Bloodlands” notes the zones where enormous loss of life occurred outside of military deaths, so, the Holodomor, large scale extra-judicial killings of ethnic minorities in Western USSR, the vicious partisan war in Belarus, the mass shootings of Jews in the USSR and the Extermination Camps in Poland.
Right, but there's that Bug R dividing line, sort of - and the Holodomor doesn't work at all for me as part of this regional concept and dynamic, as it wasn't only a Ukraine thing and the dynamic (economic reform attacking the peasantry as a whole) was both different and unrelated to the crescendo of violence in the WWII era. The situation in WWII has to do with the reach of the Nazi military and its progress in expanding its territory and control - how it governed where it conquered. Also, on the Soviet side, the Gulag wasn't even focused in the bloodlands; Stalin's deportations were from border regions - and not just in the bloodlands, like the Volga Germans and Finns, {!#%@}, I think Stalin deported Koreans in the far East. Back to the Nazi side of the ledger, there are Greece and Serbia, which don't fit, either.
The regional framework is only supposed to describe the territory between Hitler and Stalin. If one considers that the Holodomor is primarly a 1933 phenomenon he is more then welcome to add it into his description. A stronger case for exclusion would be the doctors plot in which he describes at the very end of his book. These however are very light criticisms of his book, there are much harsher criticism to be levied on his use of his source material. Not sure how the Holodomor doesn't fit in considering his two major areas of concern were mainly Ukraine and Poland.
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:07 pm
Again, the region doesn't seem to me a strong concept, not against a concept like the progress of German conquest and governance. Also, as an aside, neither was the Holodomor IMO an extermination program per se; that the famine led to 6-7m deaths (IIRC) and was human created doesn't make it a program for the systematic extermination of a people. The more you play devil's advocate, the more I remember why Snyder turned me off so much, :)
Systematic is kinda a flimsy word, and isn't really required for something to be genocide. Perpetrators can deliberately isolate natural stimuli with mal-intent for creating conditions not suitable for life - this in many cases could not be described as systematic, but it can be described as intentional. What Snyder described wasn't an intentional famine however, but one altered for political aims. Which is an important distinction.

As for famine deaths is a breakdown of the latest study that ik of:
Image
(Omelian Rudnytskyi, Nataliia Levchuk, Oleh Wolowyna and Pavlo Shevchuk in Famines in European Economic History)

However the Holodomor is the event in three locations; Ukraine, North Caucuses, lower Volga. This is important because it shows that Soviet actions of repression by Terror-Famine were not limited to the Ukraine, showing one flaw in Snyders description, and also the flaw of understanding the 1933 famine was a union-wide issue with shared cause and effect.
https://www.ewjus.com/index.php/ewjus/a ... ytsʹkyi/27

As for evidence of intent against Ukrainians:

« Non vi è dubbio infatti: 1) che questa fame derivi principalmente da una carestia organizzata e voluta «per dare una lezione al contadino»...
[...]
Il «materiale etnografico» va cambiato, ha detto cinicamente un pezzo grosso della locale GPU. Oggi si può intravedere la sorte ultima di questo «materiale etnografico», destinato ad essere sostituito.
[...]
2) La convinzione che questo «materiale etnografico» non si sarebbe riusciti mai a ridurlo al tipo di comunista integrale.»

« Kharkiv May 31, 1933, Ref. No. 474/106 Embassy of Italy, Moscow
RE: THE FAMINE AND THE UKRAINIAN QUESTION

For there is no doubt: 1) that this famine is primarily caused by a contrived scarcity designed 'to teach the farmers a lesson'...
[...]
The 'ethnographic material' must be changed, cynically stated one high ranking official in the local GPU.
[...]
2) the conviction that the 'ethnographic material' can never be re­duced to an integral communist prototype »

I think this may beg for the question to remain open. It definitely deserves such consideration when such statements exist from high ranking official's of the GPU.
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:51 pm
The same with the Holodomor (Snyder never uses that word, BTW).
He does, on page 412. Explaining the reason he didn't use it was “not because the term is less precise than Holocaust but simply because it is unfamiliar to almost all readers of English”.
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« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:03 am

Maybe we should just start a thread on this.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:08 am

Denying-History wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:47 am


He does, on page 412. Explaining the reason he didn't use it was “not because the term is less precise than Holocaust but simply because it is unfamiliar to almost all readers of English”.
Thanks, didn’t remember that.
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The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:59 am

>> Mind he only said 4 of 6 million deaths from the Soviets were related to the actual territory of the "bloodlands". So this really isn't a criticism now is it?

Again, it's been since forever but IIRC Snyder counts something like 3m from the famine, which I don't think fits for reasons stated above, and the rest from terror/camps/etc, which again to me is arbitrary. So I do think it's a criticism. IIRC if you don't include the famine, which I simply don't get (chronologically or conceptually), then almost all the deaths were caused by the Germans. If I am ambitious, I'll check the figures later.

I truly don't get that region as helping my understanding much.

As to making this a topic, not a bad idea - but I would have to drop out as I don't remember the book that well! We should, however, return this thread to its rightful place - Wannsee.

[Ok, I reached the web and found Wikipedia's summary of deaths per Snyder:

Soviets 3.6m
- 3.3m famine
- 300k Soviet "national terror"

Germans 10.4m
- 200k Poles
- 3.1m POWs
- 1.0m siege of Leningrad (dubiously included in the region IMO)
- 5.4m Jews
- 700k Belarusians and Poles in reprisals, etc]
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:31 pm

If I get a chance I’ll open one but I’m busy right now.
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Denying-History » Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:37 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:59 am
>> Mind he only said 4 of 6 million deaths from the Soviets were related to the actual territory of the "bloodlands". So this really isn't a criticism now is it?

Again, it's been since forever but IIRC Snyder counts something like 3m from the famine, which I don't think fits for reasons stated above, and the rest from terror/camps/etc, which again to me is arbitrary. So I do think it's a criticism. IIRC if you don't include the famine, which I simply don't get (chronologically or conceptually), then almost all the deaths were caused by the Germans. If I am ambitious, I'll check the figures later.
Mind I think the main failing here is what he intended for Bloodlands and its limitations to geographic boundaries. He described his book as trying "to reckon with the crimes that both regimes committed in the lands between Berlin and Moscow, where 14 million people were killed in the 12 years that both Hitler and Stalin were in power." If he pulled this off or not is really a matter of opinion, however my main issue was that you described this as an objection to Snyders book:
objections to Snyder's bloodlands were that the Soviet camps, deportations, etc were not actually centered in the bloodlands
He explicitly said that 2 of his 6 million deaths happened outside of the area he described as the "bloodlands". So I don't see how pointing this out can be considered a fair criticism.
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:59 am
I truly don't get that region as helping my understanding much.

As to making this a topic, not a bad idea - but I would have to drop out as I don't remember the book that well! We should, however, return this thread to its rightful place - Wannsee.

[Ok, I reached the web and found Wikipedia's summary of deaths per Snyder:

Soviets 3.6m
- 3.3m famine
- 300k Soviet "national terror"

Germans 10.4m
- 200k Poles
- 3.1m POWs
- 1.0m siege of Leningrad (dubiously included in the region IMO)
- 5.4m Jews
- 700k Belarusians and Poles in reprisals, etc]
Anyway, I agree. A thread should be made - though it will die reletively quickly. However I would recommend making some corrections to that listing, considering it is inaccurate to what Snyder wrote:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... lands.html
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:51 am

Denying-History wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:37 am
He explicitly said that 2 of his 6 million deaths happened outside of the area he described as the "bloodlands". So I don't see how pointing this out can be considered a fair criticism.
I'm left cold by his approach, basically. First, I don't see the unifying factor across the famine and the war deaths, which pretty much drops the USSR total in the region. Second, because the "1/3" of the Soviet-caused deaths outside the bloodlands were part and parcel of Soviet violence in the period, again making the region less interesting to me as a focal point. Thanks for the reminder of Roberto's article; it jogs my memory some. I really have confused myself as I was offering my comment as part of the Wannsee discussion, and mentioned Snyder as an aside. But, yes, I agree, we need a new thread if we want to pursue further discussion of Snyder.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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