What is it that deniers deny?

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Postby supervitor » Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:54 pm

You can also read Jimmy's retort as
"{!#%@} you and your «knowing more about this subforum than»", if you want, it's the same for Jimmy, Mr. Robotic L.
Last edited by supervitor on Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Postby supervitor » Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:59 pm

Poor Mr. Robotic, interrupting his robotic vacations from lecturing to return to his morbid hobby and now he has to deal with this.

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:11 pm

supervitor wrote:Poor Mr. Robotic, interrupting his robotic vacations from lecturing to return to his morbid hobby and now he has to deal with this.


True, this morbid Holocaust Denial subforum is very scary and unsettling, is it not Mr "I'm not a weirdo"? Looks like you didn't do your homework before you started your topic about Hannah Arendt and her philosophy here. Are you sure you wouldn't want to ask Pyrrho if he would split and move it?
.

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Postby supervitor » Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:24 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
supervitor wrote:Poor Mr. Robotic, interrupting his robotic vacations from lecturing to return to his morbid hobby and now he has to deal with this.


True, this morbid Holocaust Denial subforum is very scary and unsettling, is it not Mr "I'm not a weirdo"? Looks like you didn't do your homework before you started your topic about Hannah Arendt and her philosophy here. Are you sure you wouldn't want to ask Pyrrho if he would split and move it?

I don't think it's unsettling or scary at all the subforum (it can be funny). Counting people dead 70 years ago to the point of citing scholarly work constantly is a bit of a morbid hobby, in my view.
I'm ok where the thread is.

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Postby Balsamo » Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:47 am

Hi Supervitor,

What was it you were looking for in the first place? Is there a point you wanted to promote?
Sorry, I was busy elsewhere, and I cannot follow those last two or three pages.

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:05 am

Balsamo wrote:Hi Supervitor, What was it you were looking for in the first place? Is there a point you wanted to promote? Sorry, I was busy elsewhere, and I cannot follow those last two or three pages.


Supervitor is most probably a sock puppet for a previous troll, who recently returned to troll the general forum, with a new name. She knows exactly who Dr Terry, Statistical and other members are. Her aim is mere attention seeking in this sub section as she is getting hammered in other general subsections of the forum. Her M.O. is to automatically take a contrary position and then bog down on personal issues by going for all the "tall poppies". She uses flowery language but has little education or general knowledge. She gets tipsy and her spelling deteriorates as the day progresses.

For the last four or so months, this subforum has become educational and I'd like to keep it that way, as I am reading all posts with care. Ignore her and she will post three demands for attention in a row and then eventually go away. Don't waste time on her.

:D

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Postby supervitor » Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:43 am

Balsamo wrote:Hi Supervitor,

What was it you were looking for in the first place? Is there a point you wanted to promote?
Sorry, I was busy elsewhere, and I cannot follow those last two or three pages.


Nope, not really, just participating on the forum. The last page or so I've been answering silly questions (like this one) or silly attempts to tell me how I should go about my business. Issues, that's what I'm interested in.

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Postby supervitor » Thu Jul 23, 2015 5:51 am

Diverging back to topic: What do the deniers deny? To me sounds a bit of a silly question. They basically try to deny history, any way they can: some will deny some stuff, other other stuff.

To me sounds more pertinent asking "Why do the Deniers deny" and "How do they try to do it": yes, this is definitely more interesting, try to understand the roots of this phenomenum.

My take? To me it looks it's mostly ideologically motivated, like any other attempt of revisionism: an attempt to cast doubt on history to excuse very bad events, like saying:
"It was not so bad, some things just went bad"
"There was no plan, therefore no one is to blame"
In the end, the message is: "the ideology was not so bad; like it was shown, they've been lying to us since the beginning; we can still be somewhat racists, as long as we don't over-react"

The tactics? Over-simplification and focusing on minor details, trying to disprove some of those so it can be said "See? They lied about this!! How deceptive they were! What else did they lied us about?"

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Postby David » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:01 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Earlier you said that Hitler order the extermination of the Jews but it was a verbal order. Now it's transmogrified into a set of intentions to exterminate the Jews that was communicated by Hitler. Later today or perhaps tomorrow morning you'll tell us that nobody ever said nothing about the Nazis wanting to exterminate the Jews. And SM will step in say that that is what scholars have always said.


ROTFL-

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:47 pm

Seeing you're back, I really would be interested to know what your answers are to what StatMech asked you a page ago, David.


Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:You are so out of whack with modern day Believer dogma that it is laughable.

What is the "modern day Believer dogma," David? What are the key works that state it? Please summarize "modern day Believer dogma" for us, tell us what "Revisionism" answers, and on what grounds you personally disagree with the major works. Earlier, I gave you a list of good, mostly recent titles on aspects of the Holocaust for you to tell us about - so now you can tell us whether these titles are part of the "modern day dogma" too.
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25685&start=280#p473335


ETA For your ease, I think these are the books referred to. What would you have to tell us - and newcomers?
Statistical Mechanic wrote:* Friedlander, Nazi Germany and the Jews, Years of Extermination
* Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews (3 volume)
* Browning, The Origins of the Final Solution: The Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy, September 1939-March 1942
* Longerich, Holocaust: The Nazi Persecution and Murder of the Jews
* Silberklang, Gates of Tears: The Holocaust in the Lublin District
* Engelking & Leociak, Warsaw Ghetto: A Guide to the Perished City
* Bryant, Eyewitness to Genocide: The Operation Reinhard Death Camp Trials, 1955-1966
* Grabowski, Hunt for the Jews: Betrayal and Murder in German-Occupied Poland
* Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum, Auschwitz 1940-1945. Central Issues in the History of the Camp (5 volumes)
* Epstein, Model Nazi: Arthur Greiser and the Occupation of Western Poland
* Montague, Chelmno and the Holocaust: The History of Hitler's First Death Camp
* Trunk, Lodz Ghetto: A History
* Blatman, The Death Marches: The Final Phase of Nazi Genocide
* Roseman, A Past in Hiding: Memory and Survival in Nazi Germany
* Wachsmann, KL: A History of the Nazi Concentration Camps
* Mailänder, Female SS guards and workaday violence : the Majdanek Concentration Camp, 1942-1944
* Kranz, Extermination of Jews at the Majdanek Concentration Camp
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25685&p=472278&hilit=books#p472278
.

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Re: Dutch Gays gassed- I know nothing, nothing

Postby David » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:07 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:. . . Tales of a "Homocaust" of over 250,000 Gay men sprang to life in the 1970's rifting off the horror tales paraded through the Nuremberg Court.
The first book was Männer mit dem rosa Winkel ' ('Man with the Pink Triangle'). "First published in 1971, the German book opened the lid on a part of history that had remained hidden for so long.

The Pink Triangle, published in the 1980's was "a chilling book sheds light on a corner of twentieth-century history that has
been hidden in the shadows much too long."

Lame attempt to connect your silliness back to the IMT ("rifting off the horror tales paraded through the Nuremberg Court"). Riffing or rifting aside, have you read the first book you mention - I believe it was translated as "The Men with the Pink Triangle"? If so, what are the errors and false claims in it? Have you also read "The Pink Triangle," are you referring to Plant's book? If so, what are the errors and false claims in the book? What are the sources you rely on about homosexuals during the Third Reich? Are any of them more recent than the 1980s?


Hello SM-
Any silliness in this thread started with your inaccurate question about "Deniers" compounded by your obdurate refusal to see
that rational scholars all agree on many of the same revisions of "History."


My referral to persecution of Gays by the National Socialists was confined to Dutch Gays because policies in Holland were
very conclusively analyzed by scholars.
and it is a revision that we all agree upon.
Well, Martin "Magnify It" Gilbert might not.


I find it ironic that persecution of Gays in New York City in the 1960's was more intense than the Nazi persecution in Holland.
"In the mid-1960s New York created police vice squads to raid gay bars and baths, and began using decoys to solicit and entrap gays.
By 1966 over 100 men a week were arrested as a result of this effort."

The population of New York City in 1966 and Holland in 1940 were about the same, It means that, per capita, the number arrests of
Gays in New York City in one month was higher than the arrests of Dutch Gays during the entire War.
An interesting factoid.

Anyway, you have rambled off-topic as you are wont to do, and I, in my concern with answering your questions, have followed.
If you still don't understand why books like The Pink Triangle: The Nazi War Against Homosexuals are a history subject to revision,
maybe you should start a new thread?

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:34 pm

David wrote:I find it ironic that persecution of Gays in New York City in the 1960's was more intense than the Nazi persecution in Holland.


Still know next to nothing about all that, but what if gays weren't quite "off the Nazi radar" but also not the brightest blip on it?
.

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Modern Holocaust Dogma

Postby David » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:42 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Seeing you're back, I really would be interested to know what your answers are to what StatMech asked you a page ago, David.


Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:You are so out of whack with modern day Believer dogma that it is laughable.

What is the "modern day Believer dogma," David?
* Browning, The Origins of the Final Solution: The Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy, September 1939-March 1942
* Longerich, Holocaust: The Nazi Persecution and Murder of the Jews
* Silberklang, Gates of Tears: The Holocaust in the Lublin District
* Engelking & Leociak, Warsaw Ghetto: A Guide to the Perished City
* Bryant, Eyewitness to Genocide: The Operation Reinhard Death Camp Trials, 1955-1966
* Grabowski, Hunt for the Jews: Betrayal and Murder in German-Occupied Poland
* Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum, Auschwitz 1940-1945. Central Issues in the History of the Camp (5 volumes)
* Epstein, Model Nazi: Arthur Greiser and the Occupation of Western Poland
* Montague, Chelmno and the Holocaust: The History of Hitler's First Death Camp
* Trunk, Lodz Ghetto: A History
* Blatman, The Death Marches: The Final Phase of Nazi Genocide
* Roseman, A Past in Hiding: Memory and Survival in Nazi Germany
* Wachsmann, KL: A History of the Nazi Concentration Camps
* Mailänder, Female SS guards and workaday violence : the Majdanek Concentration Camp, 1942-1944
* Kranz, Extermination of Jews at the Majdanek Concentration Camp
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25685&p=472278&hilit=books#p472278


Hello scrm-
I hope you realize that "Holocaust Belief" has been revised greatly since the form it was presented in at Nuremberg?
Thus, there are Fundamentalist Believers who still have faith in tales of Auschwitz Soap Factories, etc.
See Hearing a Different Drummer: A Holocaust Survivor's Search for Identity published 2000
and more evolved Believers, like YOU.
My point is that Holocaust Belief is all over the map.

Generally accepted revisions to the Nuremberg Story have been piecemeal and did not just include Jewish victims.
For example, Prof. Guenter Lewy's work on the National Socialist persecution of Gypsies.


I was referring to the recognition by educated Believers that there was no "Hitler Order," written, printed, spoken or whispered and
Browning's The Origins of the Final Solution: The Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy, September 1939-March 1942 is the best
statement of that idea. Thank you David Irving.

and I often refer to Kranz, Extermination of Jews at the Majdanek Concentration Camp as the latest figures on Majdanek.
The only issue Revisionists have with Kranz is his clinging to the last of the 6 Majdanek "gas chambers," the backwards
chamber at the entrance to the Camp.

Not mentioned was the very important (but fading) reference for the Auschwitz "gas chambers" Pressac's work.
Although the mimic VanPelt's inaccurate duplicate The Case for Auschwitz:effort is pushing Pressac aside for reasons too complicated to explain.

I have not read Blatman, The Death Marches. I don't know if he "explains" the evacuations of inmates any better than Goldhagen

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:00 am

Thank you, David. But I have to say the editing of the quote looks a bit odd.
.

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Postby David » Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:03 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
David wrote:I find it ironic that persecution of Gays in New York City in the 1960's was more intense than the Nazi persecution in Holland.


Still know next to nothing about all that, but what if gays weren't quite "off the Nazi radar" but also not the brightest blip on it?


Persecution of homosexuals was not "off the Nazi radar." Germany prosecuted various sexual behaviors before, during, and after the
National Socialist period. The discussion is really about how vigorous was the prosecution and what was the severity of punishment.

In the 1970's figures of 250,000 deaths were claimed. That figure has drifted downward.
However, there are still conflicts in figures. For example arrest figures range from between 30,000 to 50,000.
actual imprisonment figures are lower. The number of concentration camp inmates confined for homosexual offenses is
very low...ie Majdanek had only 60 in a six month period studied.

The matter is slightly complicated by the fact that Paragraph 175 of the German Criminal Code made assorted acts illegal, including
bestiality.

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Postby David » Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:06 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Thank you, David. But I have to say the editing of the quote looks a bit odd.


Hey scrm- Not to be rude but it's Friday and I am out of here.
An analysis of What is Holocaust Belief today is rather complicated.
Peace and have a good weekend.

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:27 am

David wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
David wrote:I find it ironic that persecution of Gays in New York City in the 1960's was more intense than the Nazi persecution in Holland.


Still know next to nothing about all that, but what if gays weren't quite "off the Nazi radar" but also not the brightest blip on it?


Persecution of homosexuals was not "off the Nazi radar."

I did not say that it was.

Germany prosecuted various sexual behaviors before, during, and after the
National Socialist period. The discussion is really about how vigorous was the prosecution and what was the severity of punishment...

Everywhere, or specifically in the Netherlands?
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:29 am

Oops, didn't see your last post. See ya when you're back.
.

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Nazi Invasion of Holland "OK" with David the denier.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:53 am

David, the lying holocaust denier wrote: I find it ironic that persecution of Gays in New York City in the 1960's was more intense than the Nazi persecution in Holland.
51422.jpg
Did the NYPD bomb and destroy cities in New York to impose their views, through invasion?

David, you are a complete idiot.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Re: Dutch Gays gassed- I know nothing, nothing

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:50 am

DAVID DODGES MORE QUESTIONS

David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:. . . Tales of a "Homocaust" of over 250,000 Gay men sprang to life in the 1970's rifting off the horror tales paraded through the Nuremberg Court.
The first book was Männer mit dem rosa Winkel ' ('Man with the Pink Triangle'). "First published in 1971, the German book opened the lid on a part of history that had remained hidden for so long.

The Pink Triangle, published in the 1980's was "a chilling book sheds light on a corner of twentieth-century history that has
been hidden in the shadows much too long."

Lame attempt to connect your silliness back to the IMT ("rifting off the horror tales paraded through the Nuremberg Court"). Riffing or rifting aside, have you read the first book you mention - I believe it was translated as "The Men with the Pink Triangle"? If so, what are the errors and false claims in it? Have you also read "The Pink Triangle," are you referring to Plant's book? If so, what are the errors and false claims in the book? What are the sources you rely on about homosexuals during the Third Reich? Are any of them more recent than the 1980s?


Hello SM-
Any silliness in this thread started with your inaccurate question about "Deniers"

Again, you realize, first, that the OP simply quoted from and summarized two deniers - Rollo the ganger and Maryzilla. It linked to a thread started by Rollo the ganger touting six/gas/plan over at RODOH.

Second, a question is just a question, not a claim to be evaluated for accuracy.

Third, the OP doesn't ask a question - rather, it concludes with an opinion - which is that the six/gas/plan "definition" promoted by Rollo the ganger and Maryzilla seems like 1) an attempt to deflect from discussion of Nazi extermination campaigns like the open-air shootings and 2) flies in the face of voluminous writing by deniers that is far more extensive in its view of what is being denied than six/gas/plan.

So, talk to Maryzilla and Rollo the ganger if you don't like six/gas/plan.

David wrote:compounded by your obdurate refusal to see that rational scholars all agree on many of the same revisions of "History."

Because you won't explain assertions like this one, I've got no idea what you think you're saying. We saw how your attempt to connect Browning to Irving went - if you have that kind of BS in mind: it didn't work out for you.

David wrote:My referral to persecution of Gays by the National Socialists was confined to Dutch Gays because policies in Holland were
very conclusively analyzed by scholars.
and it is a revision that we all agree upon.
Well, Martin "Magnify It" Gilbert might not.

I don't agree or disagree with it - I don't know anything about it besides what you posted. But the two books you now cite are not about Dutch gays during WWII at all. So you've shifted the topic, as you like doing.

David wrote:I find it ironic that persecution of Gays in New York City in the 1960's was more intense than the Nazi persecution in Holland.
"In the mid-1960s New York created police vice squads to raid gay bars and baths, and began using decoys to solicit and entrap gays.
By 1966 over 100 men a week were arrested as a result of this effort."

The population of New York City in 1966 and Holland in 1940 were about the same, It means that, per capita, the number arrests of
Gays in New York City in one month was higher than the arrests of Dutch Gays during the entire War.
An interesting factoid.

Anyway, you have rambled off-topic as you are wont to do, and I, in my concern with answering your questions, have followed.
If you still don't understand why books like The Pink Triangle: The Nazi War Against Homosexuals are a history subject to revision,
maybe you should start a new thread?

Uh, David, answer the questions I asked:
have you read the first book you mention - I believe it was translated as "The Men with the Pink Triangle"? If so, what are the errors and false claims in it? Have you also read "The Pink Triangle," are you referring to Plant's book? If so, what are the errors and false claims in the book? What are the sources you rely on about homosexuals during the Third Reich? Are any of them more recent than the 1980s?

Majdanek - "wrongway gas chambers" - how are coming along with the question I asked?
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:54 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
David wrote:I find it ironic that persecution of Gays in New York City in the 1960's was more intense than the Nazi persecution in Holland.


Still know next to nothing about all that, but what if gays weren't quite "off the Nazi radar" but also not the brightest blip on it?

David's posting about NYC in the '60s on a thread about six/gas/plan and whether it represents the core of denial - and says I am rambling! LOL
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Re: Modern Holocaust Dogma

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:04 am

David wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Seeing you're back, I really would be interested to know what your answers are to what StatMech asked you a page ago, David.


Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:You are so out of whack with modern day Believer dogma that it is laughable.

What is the "modern day Believer dogma," David?
* Browning, The Origins of the Final Solution: The Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy, September 1939-March 1942
* Longerich, Holocaust: The Nazi Persecution and Murder of the Jews
* Silberklang, Gates of Tears: The Holocaust in the Lublin District
* Engelking & Leociak, Warsaw Ghetto: A Guide to the Perished City
* Bryant, Eyewitness to Genocide: The Operation Reinhard Death Camp Trials, 1955-1966
* Grabowski, Hunt for the Jews: Betrayal and Murder in German-Occupied Poland
* Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum, Auschwitz 1940-1945. Central Issues in the History of the Camp (5 volumes)
* Epstein, Model Nazi: Arthur Greiser and the Occupation of Western Poland
* Montague, Chelmno and the Holocaust: The History of Hitler's First Death Camp
* Trunk, Lodz Ghetto: A History
* Blatman, The Death Marches: The Final Phase of Nazi Genocide
* Roseman, A Past in Hiding: Memory and Survival in Nazi Germany
* Wachsmann, KL: A History of the Nazi Concentration Camps
* Mailänder, Female SS guards and workaday violence : the Majdanek Concentration Camp, 1942-1944
* Kranz, Extermination of Jews at the Majdanek Concentration Camp
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25685&p=472278&hilit=books#p472278


Hello scrm-
I hope you realize that "Holocaust Belief" has been revised greatly since the form it was presented in at Nuremberg?
Thus, there are Fundamentalist Believers who still have faith in tales of Auschwitz Soap Factories, etc.
See Hearing a Different Drummer: A Holocaust Survivor's Search for Identity published 2000 and more evolved Believers, like YOU.
My point is that Holocaust Belief is all over the map.

LOL, David needs to re-read the McPherson AHA opinion I directed him to. And ponder stuff like this. One reason David and his lot are deniers, not the revisionists they claim to be, is that they know zilch about historical revision.

David wrote:Generally accepted revisions to the Nuremberg Story have been piecemeal and did not just include Jewish victims. For example, Prof. Guenter Lewy's work on the National Socialist persecution of Gypsies.

Whether or not Nazi persecution of the Roma, asocials, and other groups is part of the Holocaust is a controversial question. David's refusal to make a succinct statement about the definition has him thinking he can jump around and post on NYC, Roma, Dutch gays, whatever he likes.

I don't believe that Bloxham's books, one of them on the IMT and one a comprehensive argument about the Final Solution, can be reasonably, by any stretch, said to have been piecemeal. These are other books which David's not read.

David wrote:I was referring to the recognition by educated Believers that there was no "Hitler Order," written, printed, spoken or whispered and Browning's The Origins of the Final Solution: The Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy, September 1939-March 1942 is the best
statement of that idea. Thank you David Irving.

And we showed David where in his Irving testimony Browning connects that viewpoint to . . . Raul Hilberg, who wrote in the 1950s.

David wrote:and I often refer to Kranz, Extermination of Jews at the Majdanek Concentration Camp as the latest figures on Majdanek. The only issue Revisionists have with Kranz is his clinging to the last of the 6 Majdanek "gas chambers," the backwards
chamber at the entrance to the Camp.

Dodging the question whether David's read the Kranz book.
And, inexplicably, highlighting David's continued refusal to answer
What do you mean by "wrongway"? Are you making the same claim Nessie put forward in this thread and for which Nessie could provide no sources? Or are you referring to something else and expect us to read your mind? Explain.

David, dodging 24/7.

David wrote:Not mentioned was the very important (but fading) reference for the Auschwitz "gas chambers" Pressac's work.
Although the mimic VanPelt's inaccurate duplicate The Case for Auschwitz:effort is pushing Pressac aside for reasons too complicated to explain.

The list of books was selective - not exhaustive. There are many good, and more recent, titles I didn't list. I listed a sampling of fairly recent (with one or two exceptions) works so that David could help us understand what in today's historiography deniers deny and highlight his points of agreement and disagreement. Instead, David keeps jumping around and yapping uselessly about Nuremberg.

David wrote:I have not read Blatman, The Death Marches. I don't know if he "explains" the evacuations of inmates any better than Goldhagen

Goldhagen is not under discussion here, partly because I didn't list his book and partly because it is roundly dismissed by most historians of the Holocaust.

We could re-state David's reply to scrmbldggs as follows: "I have not read any of these books. I don't know a thing about Holocaust historiography but that doesn't stop me from making dumb claims about it. It is all about Nuremberg, except when it isn't." - signed, "Wrongway" David
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:13 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Thank you, David. But I have to say the editing of the quote looks a bit odd.

Especially when what he claims as "dogma" is what he hasn't read - and that which offers a range of pov's and judgments.
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:14 am

David wrote:In the 1970's figures of 250,000 deaths were claimed. That figure has drifted downward.

So David wants to revise the revision of Nuremberg?
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:15 am

David wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Thank you, David. But I have to say the editing of the quote looks a bit odd.


Hey scrm- Not to be rude but it's Friday and I am out of here.
An analysis of What is Holocaust Belief today is well beyond my knowledge and capabilities.
Peace and have a good weekend.

ftfy
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:19 am

Ok, guys, if David continues to do two things, I say we put him on ignore for now:
1) Make claims without sourcing them (e.g., the IMT enshrined Hitler's secret order, the gas chambers at Majdanek are presented the wrongway, etc). No sources - no David.
2) Refuse to answer specific, reasonable questions (which books on a list he's read and how he judges them, evidence for his claim about the Majdanek gas chambers, and on and on and on). No answers - no David.
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:48 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Ok, guys, if David continues to do two things, I say we put him on ignore for now:

Done.

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A place where Jews were taken to be gassed.

Postby David » Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:11 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Thank you, David. But I have to say the editing of the quote looks a bit odd.


If you mean the books I commented on, scrm, it is because many of the books were just published.
Six books were reviewed in the last issue of New York Review of Books by Richard Evans...another character
from the Irving v. Penguin Trial.

So, to try and answer SM's malformed question with yet another example of what "Deniers deny"...I will quote from
a Evans' article...
In the popular imagination, the Nazi concentration camp now features mainly as a place where Jews were taken to be gassed.
In a recent German opinion poll, most respondents associated the camps with the persecution and murder of Jews; under
10 percent mentioned other categories of camp prisoners, such as Communists, criminals, or homosexuals. The power of the
“Holocaust” as a concept has all but obliterated other aspects of the crimes of the Nazis and the sufferings of their victims and
driven the history of the camps from cultural memory.


I would say that most Revisionists would deny that Nazi concentration camps were place where Jews were taken to be gassed.

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Re: Dutch Gays gassed- I know nothing, nothing

Postby David » Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:28 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:DAVID DODGES MORE QUESTIONS

David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:Hello SM-
Any silliness in this thread started with your inaccurate question about "Deniers"

Again, you realize, first, that the OP simply quoted from and summarized two deniers - Rollo the ganger and Maryzilla. It linked to a thread started by Rollo the ganger touting six/gas/plan over at RODOH.


Hello SM- It is pretty chicken sh*t of you to ask a stupid question and then try and blame it on someone else.
You asked what is it that "Deniers deny" and I was answering your question.

You got caught lying about what Prof. Browning said about David Irving and the "Secret Hitler Order" at the Penguin Trial
My point was not particularly to expose your dishonesty but to give an example of Revisionist research which has
provoked major revisions in Holocaust Belief....among the more educated Believers.

And to bring it all home to your continued babbling about "Rollo the ganger" and "six/gas/plan" Irving's discovery has
also had an impact on what was the actual "plan."

The simple answer to your stupid question is that most "Deniers" are Revisionists and agree with revisions made to Holocaust Belief.

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Re: A place where Jews were taken to be gassed.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:18 pm

David wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Thank you, David. But I have to say the editing of the quote looks a bit odd.


If you mean the books I commented on, scrm, it is because many of the books were just published.

Lie.

David wrote:I would say that most Revisionists would deny that Nazi concentration camps were place where Jews were taken to be gassed.

LOL, of course they would - they also would deny that Jews were gassed at Birkenau, Majdanek, Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec, Chelmno or anywhere else. So what?
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Re: Dutch Gays gassed- I know nothing, nothing

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:24 pm

David wrote:You got caught lying about what Prof. Browning said about David Irving and the "Secret Hitler Order" at the Penguin Trial

Hunh? Excuse me, but scrmbldggs and I showed you that Browning cited Hilberg, not Irving, as the impetus for the development of his views. Directly in contradiction to your claim - and, to make matters worse, you cherrypicked from the trial record to hide what Browning said.

David wrote:My point was not particularly to expose your dishonesty but to give an example of Revisionist research which has provoked major revisions in Holocaust Belief....among the more educated Believers.

You did neither.

David wrote:And to bring it all home to your continued babbling about "Rollo the ganger" and "six/gas/plan" Irving's discovery has also had an impact on what was the actual "plan."

You're forgetting Maryzilla, pal.

David wrote:The simple answer to your stupid question is that most "Deniers" are Revisionists and agree with revisions made to Holocaust Belief.

And yet another non-answer from you. Back to the list of books I asked you to comment on, do "Revisionists" agree with most of the arguments made in them? Let's try to be a wee tad specific, ok? Anyway, if we take literally what you keep repeating, then we have to assume that most "Revisionists" "agree with revisions made" in the list of solidly scholarly, fairly recent books I asked you about. Thus, most "Revisionists" have come round to understanding that the Third Reich exterminated millions of Jews on account of their being Jews.

Interesting outcome, but I doubt if Rollo the ganger would go along with you on this.
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:26 pm

David failed to answer the questions he's been asked about Majdanek. He is now on ignore for me.
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And SM is caught again.

Postby David » Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:27 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:You got caught lying about what Prof. Browning said about David Irving and the "Secret Hitler Order" at the Penguin Trial

Hunh? Excuse me, but scrmbldggs and I showed you that Browning cited Hilberg, not Irving, as the impetus for the development of his views. Directly in contradiction to your claim - and, to make matters worse, you cherrypicked from the trial record to hide what Browning said.



Hello SM- I am sorry. I thought you were a liar...I realize you are just stupid.
Let me help you again with the Trial transcript.

Here is Browning responding to Irving
Browning is NOT talking to Hilberg.
Irving, NOT Hilberg, published Hitler's War
Hilberg is mentioned only in terms of "the apparatus,"

Again, the transcript-
Professor Browning speaking-

"I would say that there had been substantial study of the Holocaust; the Trunk book, in terms of the Jewish Council's, Hilberg in terms of the apparatus, Schloenus in terms of the preHolocaust bureaucratic process. What had not been studied before you published was a particular focus on decision-making process and Hitler's role. That is one part and, in so far as we can confine ourselves to that, indeed, your publication of 'Hitler's War' was the impetus for the research in that area." [end]

So, what about, "indeed, your publication of 'Hitler's War' was the impetus for the research in that area."
don't you understand?




In fact, your stupid "theory" trying to deny Irving of the credit is even addressed by Browning himself later in the transcript.

MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are we still -- I am so sorry -- talking about Raul Hilberg's view or are we sliding into your own view?
MR IRVING: No. We are now talking about his own expertise.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is quite important to know whose opinions I am hearing.
MR IRVING: I believe this is Professor Browning's opinion. (To the witness): Am I right?
A: Well, we started talking about what Hilberg and I explained what I thought he would be comfortable with, and then I believe we kind of shifted into how we would understand this kind of decision making process would be done that was not attributed to Raul Hilberg specifically but a general discussion.


Quite simply Holocaust Revisionists have had a huge impact on Holocaust Belief. To outline them simply for you;
1. There was no Hitler Order (thank you David Irving)
2. There were no Steam or diesel "chambers of Death." Thank you Fritz Berg.
3. The emphasis on Auschwitz and Majdanek has been "shifted" Thank you all the Revisionists who exposed the 4,000, Lie at Auschwitz
and the 1,400,000 Lie at Majdanek with a specific nod to Eric Hunt.


You are just too dishonest and slithery to admit the vast changes to Holocaust Belief over the last 30 years.
So you distort the very clear testimony of Prof. Brown.

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Re: A place where Jews were taken to be gassed.

Postby David » Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:49 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Thank you, David. But I have to say the editing of the quote looks a bit odd.


If you mean the books I commented on, scrm, it is because many of the books were just published.

Lie.



Ok- Here is the list from Evan's review- Want to back up your assertions that they are not just published?
2015 is too far back for you?

Of course, it would be better if you just addressed Evan's article instead of hissing out "lie" and slithering away from a discussion.


Here are the books- Back up your insult and your claim that are not recently published.

KL: A History of the Nazi Concentration Camps
by Nikolaus Wachsmann
Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 865 pp., $40.00
Before Auschwitz: Jewish Prisoners in the Prewar Concentration Camps
by Kim Wünschmann
Harvard University Press, 367 pp., $45.00
Ravensbrück: Life and Death in Hitler’s Concentration Camp for Women
by Sarah Helm
Nan A. Talese/Doubleday, 743 pp., $37.50
Female SS Guards and Workaday Violence: The Majdanek Concentration Camp, 1942–1944
by Elissa Mailänder, translated from the German by Patricia Szobar
Michigan State University Press, 405 pp., $49.95
The Liberation of the Camps: The End of the Holocaust and Its Aftermath
by Dan Stone
Yale University Press, 277 pp., $32.50
Forgotten Trials of the Holocaust
by Michael J. Bazyler and Frank M. Tuerkheimer
NYU Press, 374 pp., $45.00

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:48 pm

David you are an idiot who digs up the same old tired strawman again and again. Steam chambers 4 million write order gravel pits Yada Yada.

You lost all credibility when you failed to understand the difference between TI and TII. I have continued to engage with you in an attempt to get you to understand the historical truth and see the light. You also make me feel oh so very smart.

It has all gotten tiresome and I have no choice but to put you on ignore. I will advise my compatriots here to follow suit.

I am very disappointed in you.

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a place where Jews were taken to be gassed

Postby David » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:38 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:The simple answer to your stupid question is that most "Deniers" are Revisionists and agree with revisions made to Holocaust Belief.

And yet another non-answer from you. Back to the list of books I asked you to comment on, do "Revisionists" agree with most of the arguments made in them? Let's try to be a wee tad specific, ok? Anyway, if we take literally what you keep repeating, then we have to assume that most "Revisionists" "agree with revisions made" in the list of solidly scholarly, fairly recent books I asked you about. Thus, most "Revisionists" have come round to understanding that the Third Reich exterminated millions of Jews on account of their being Jews.

Interesting outcome, but I doubt if Rollo the ganger would go along with you on this.


Sigh...I was commenting on your incorrect framing of the question-
And I said that Revisionists agree with revisions made to Holocaust Belief...not with most of the arguments made in the various books.

The example was Evans' article last month-

Take the opening-
In the popular imagination, the Nazi concentration camp now features mainly as a place where Jews were taken to be gassed. In a recent German opinion poll, most respondents associated the camps with the persecution and murder of Jews; under 10 percent mentioned other categories of camp prisoners, such as Communists, criminals, or homosexuals. The power of the “Holocaust” as a concept has all but obliterated other aspects of the crimes of the Nazis and the sufferings of their victims and driven the history of the camps from cultural memory.

Revisionists agree with that statement on popular history-


But to cite examples from the various books reviewed and to state what revisions we agree with.
Nikolaus Wachsmann feels that that Jews made up no more than 10 percent of the inmate population.
Even that figure is probably too high

Kim Wünschmann, reckons that of the 150,000 to 200,000 Germans incarcerated in the camps in 1933, during the Nazi seizure of power, around 5,000 to 10,000 were Jewish, or 5 percent of the camp population up to the middle of 1938.

and Most of the Jews arrested in 1938 were released before the war,

These figures are repeated in all the camps with records but with the exception noted in Sarah Helm's book on Ravensbrück [emphasis added]
quote
Initially, conditions at Ravensbrück were better than at the men’s camps in general, with work in areas like sewing and, later, war components production, rather than heavy labor, and better hygiene and generally less harsh conditions.As elsewhere, however, the situation began to deteriorate during the war.

So what are the lessons learn from the latest Believer revisionism?
1. The number of Jewish German inmates was low
2. The percentage of Jewish German inmates was low
3. There were often "other causes" for the detention of the Jewish inmates such as political activity against the
German government
4. Survival rate was high
5. Release rates were high prior to the War.
6. These statistics were matched with Austrian-Jewish detainees and in other camps were records are preserved.
7. Conditions in the Camps deteriorated during the War.

These new "discoveries" have been pointed out by Revisionists for years. We agree with them.

But that does not mean that all Evans' arguments make sense. Some are totally stupid.

All these new "discoveries" create a problem for Evans.
How can he explain one level of known treatment in the "Death Camps" and a program of total mass murder in the "Extermination Camps?"

Here Evans flops around with his claim that "facilities such as Treblinka or Auschwitz-Birkenau, constructed for no
other purpose than mass murder" Obviously, Evans is wrong. Birkenau had a huge population of 35,000 women in October 1943
Large numbers of inmates actually worked. Treblinka had a large labor camp operating a quarry and timbering work.

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Re: a place where Jews were taken to be gassed

Postby Xcalibur » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:46 am

David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:The simple answer to your stupid question is that most "Deniers" are Revisionists and agree with revisions made to Holocaust Belief.

And yet another non-answer from you. Back to the list of books I asked you to comment on, do "Revisionists" agree with most of the arguments made in them? Let's try to be a wee tad specific, ok? Anyway, if we take literally what you keep repeating, then we have to assume that most "Revisionists" "agree with revisions made" in the list of solidly scholarly, fairly recent books I asked you about. Thus, most "Revisionists" have come round to understanding that the Third Reich exterminated millions of Jews on account of their being Jews.

Interesting outcome, but I doubt if Rollo the ganger would go along with you on this.


Sigh...I was commenting on your incorrect framing of the question-
And I said that Revisionists agree with revisions made to Holocaust Belief...not with most of the arguments made in the various books.

The example was Evans' article last month-

Take the opening-
In the popular imagination, the Nazi concentration camp now features mainly as a place where Jews were taken to be gassed. In a recent German opinion poll, most respondents associated the camps with the persecution and murder of Jews; under 10 percent mentioned other categories of camp prisoners, such as Communists, criminals, or homosexuals. The power of the “Holocaust” as a concept has all but obliterated other aspects of the crimes of the Nazis and the sufferings of their victims and driven the history of the camps from cultural memory.

Revisionists agree with that statement on popular history-
But to cite examples from the various books reviewed
Nikolaus Wachsmann feels that that Jews made up no more than 10 percent of the inmate population.
Even that figure is probably too high

Kim Wünschmann, reckons that of the 150,000 to 200,000 Germans incarcerated in the camps in 1933, during the Nazi seizure of power, around 5,000 to 10,000 were Jewish, or 5 percent of the camp population up to the middle of 1938.

and Most of the Jews arrested in 1938 were released before the war,

These figures are repeated in all the camps with records but with the exception noted in
Sarah Helm's book on Ravensbrück [emphasis added]
quote
Initially, conditions at Ravensbrück were better than at the men’s camps in general, with work in areas like sewing and, later, war components production, rather than heavy labor, and better hygiene and generally less harsh conditions. As elsewhere, however, the situation began to deteriorate during the war.

So what are the lessons learn from the latest Believer research?
1. The number of Jewish German inmates was low
2. The percentage of Jewish German inmates was low
3. There were often "other causes" for the detention of the Jewish inmates such as political activity against the
German government
4. Survival rate was high
5. Release rates were high prior to the War.
6. These statistics were matched with Austrian-Jewish detainees and in other camps [b]were records are preserved.

7. Conditions in the Camps deteriorated during the War.

These new "discoveries" have been pointed out by Revisionists for years. We agree with them.

All these new "discoveries" create a problem for Evans.
How to explain one level of known treatment in the "Death Camps" and a program of total mass murder in the "Extermination Camps?"

Here Evans flops around with his claim that "facilities such as Treblinka or Auschwitz-Birkenau, constructed for no
other purpose than mass murder" Obviously, Evans is wrong. Birkenau had a huge population of 35,000 women in October 1943
Large numbers of inmates actually worked. Treblinka had a large labor camp operating a quarry and timbering work.



Jesus wept.

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:14 am

Again, no differentiation between TI and TII, as well as a fixation on irrelevant KL topics. The KL's did not have a very high survival rate at all btw. 90,000 died at Ravensbruck, most before the last few months of the war. Executions were common. Labour conditions at Mauthausen-Gusen were dreadful.

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:16 am

Also: the sanitary conditions at the womens camp in Birkenau were awful.

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:53 am

"Ignore" doesn't work, btw, for quoted posts, LOL.

That said, I can't resist: what a {!#%@} moron. He answers a question concerning 15 books - which he clearly hasn't read - about how "Revisionists" are supposed to "agree with the revisions" in the books - by cherrypicking from a book review, which he doesn't understand, that discusses 2 of the books!

It so happens that I've read but didn't list Helm's book, also reviewed by Evans. As with Maïlander's book on Majdanek (David still silent about what I asked him about his "wrongway gas chambers" claim it seems), Helm, writing about Ravensbrück, discusses, as Evans says, the use of gas chambers at the camp, the gas chambers established by a team, including Höss, who'd fled Auschwitz. In this case, the gas chambers were along with shootings and lethal injections used to "clean" the camp of the growing number of prisoners unable to work. Helm also discusses how Aufseheren from Ravensbrück established the guard detail in the Auschwitz women's camp (originally in Auschwitz I) and what prisoners/guards coming from Auschwitz to Ravensbrück had experienced at Auschwitz. She includes a lengthy discussion of a Norwegian, Wanda Hjort, who, while held under loose arrest conditions in Germany, worked on behalf of Norwegians in Ravensbrück and other KLs. In late 1944, an SS doctor smuggled to Hjort a letter from Sylvia Salveson, a Norwegian prisoner medic held at Ravensbrück, explaining that women from Ravensbrück had been transferred to Majdanek and Auschwitz, "an extermination camp where a million Jews have been driven into gas chambers." (p 542)

In his eagerness to revise away that which is unpleasant, and ugly for his heroes, David neglected to tell you all about that sort of thing - or is David, when he insists that "Revisionsts" agree with these books, signing on to gas chambers at Ravensbrück - and the estimate of about 1 million people gassed at Auschwitz? Well, David does have an excuse - he hasn't read Helm's book at all, even though here he is claiming to agree with it and that other "Revisionists" do too.

In fact, David kind of omitted the war years in re-stating some pretty familiar material, just sayin'. He missed when the KLs mushroomed, sub amps grew, and the SS became a slave labor supplier. Well, also Kristallnacht and '38 and a lot else. Wachsmann's book, while excellent, is a synthesis of recent research - and, as any readers of this forum with half a brain cell would guess, he puts the % of Jews in the camps during the war much higher than David's cherry-picking conveys - maybe a third, I don't have the book with me and am spending my last day in this island paradise so I can't be arsed to do exact facts and figures this morning. But, no, the KLs were not created to deal with the Jews - and if David thinks that we think they were, maybe he is finally clear on that score. Baby steps.

Btw, the books by Wachsmann, Maïlander, and even Helm - despite David's mischaracterizations - are well worth reading. Wachsmann is pretty much required reading, as his book on prisons during the Third Reich, IMO.
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