Oscar Groening liar?

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Oscar Groening liar?

Postby ryu238 » Fri May 15, 2015 9:37 pm

A.S. Marques of Portugal has spotted, Saturday, April 16, 2005, how BBC producer Laurence Rees faked what a German “eye-witness of gas chambers” actually said.

What Gröning actually said

I HAVE just read the article “The fight against Holocaust denial” by Raffi Berg, quoted by your site from BBC News. In that article, we read the following:

“The fear that deniers could gain the upper hand led an SS camp guard, Oskar Gröning, to break a lifetime of silence earlier this year in a BBC documentary, Auschwitz: The Nazis and the Final Solution. ‘I saw the gas chambers. I saw the crematoria. I saw the open fires. I was on the ramp when the selections [for the gas chambers] took place,’ said Mr Gröning, now in his 80s. ‘I would like you to believe these atrocities happened— because I was there.'”

Mr. Berg’s quote is intriguing. I happen to have not only watched, but also tape-recorded, the BBC documentary he mentions, when it was broadcast last March 8 [2005] on the Portuguese channel RTP-2, in its original English version subtitled in Portuguese, and I was struck by the contradiction between the subtitles and the actual words one can hear in the film.

They differ in one important detail from what one can distinctly hear, both in the German words spoken by Gröning and their superposed English translation.

The Portuguese subtitles, like Mr. Berg’s quote, follow what I gather to be the BBC-distributed text that one can find here (Groening speaking):

“I see it as my task, now at my age, to face up to these things that I experienced and to oppose the Holocaust deniers who claim that Auschwitz never happened. And that’s why I am here today. Because I want to tell those deniers: I have seen the gas chambers, I have seen the crematoria, I have seen the burning pits—and I want you to believe me that these atrocities happened. I was there.”

Now here are the actual words one gets in the English superposed commentary, which is a faithful translation of the German words one is also able to hear beneath the English:

“I see it as my task, now at my age, to face up to these things that I experienced and to oppose the Holocaust deniers who claim that Auschwitz never happened. And that’s why I am here today. Because I want to tell those deniers: I have seen the crematoria, I have seen the burning pits—and I want you to believe me that these atrocities happened. I was there.”

Spot the difference.

Tough luck. Back to Höss’s “confessions” (never mind Richard Baer or Arthur Liebehenschel) and, of course, the Germans that also confessed to have seen the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth: Hans Stark (10 years for gassing Jews, under juvenile law due to his age, in the Frankfurt 1963-65 “Auschwitz Trial”) and Pery Broad (5 years, same trial)…

A. S. Marques

Lisbon, Portugal

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Letters/Auschwitz/ ... 50405.html
Thoughts on this?
Never mind, found the answer: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... -seen.html
Marques does bring up something?
Calm down, read carefully, think a little, and you'll get the nuance that escaped you. You see, the passage implies that Groening was hiding from view. This is a classic tale. Apparently every SS man needed to be in hiding to have a peak at what was supposedly everyday's business in clear view of everybody in the proverbial "factory of death" of Auschwitz. It's the same with the two only witnesses of the Frankfurt trial and both got away with very light condemnations. How come? Think about it and then draw your own conclusions on the value of this so-called "testimony"...

Thoughts?

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri May 15, 2015 9:56 pm

Saved me digging around to find the HC blog entry :)
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby ryu238 » Fri May 15, 2015 9:59 pm

Welcome, but what about the other quote I put up?

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Balsamo » Fri May 15, 2015 10:04 pm

At least, it showed that you can find the answers to most of your questions by yourself when you try.

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby ryu238 » Fri May 15, 2015 10:05 pm

...I do find the answers on my own a lot of the time.

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri May 15, 2015 10:13 pm

False premise. Nothing to Marques's huffing and puffing because of the false premise.
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby ryu238 » Fri May 15, 2015 11:00 pm

How is it a false premise...And which quote are you speaking of?

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat May 16, 2015 12:11 am

This has been addressed many times. Groning did not describe the gas chambers in the mentioned quote, but he explicitly mentioned them in the rest of his testimony elsewhere in the book. This is much ado about nothing.

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby ryu238 » Sat May 16, 2015 12:53 am

Oh! He mentioned it elsewhere!...but in the link: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... -seen.html
They say
the transcript correctly represents what Mr Groening said in his interview. He did say he had seen the gas chambers. But these words were not used in the final edited sequence of the film. Much fuller versions of Mr Groening's testimony are already available in published form in the book of the series which I wrote. On page 373 of the British paperback edition, for example, you can read a more complete section of his interview where he talks about seeing the gas chambers. It was this section which was edited down for inclusion in programme six of the series. Elsewhere, on page 207 he describes seeing the Zyklon B inserted into a gas chamber.
apparently he did say it but it was edited out.

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby ryu238 » Sat May 16, 2015 1:57 am

Hello?

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat May 16, 2015 2:04 am

ryu238 wrote:How is it a false premise...And which quote are you speaking of?

The one I thought you asked me about -
Calm down, read carefully, think a little, and you'll get the nuance that escaped you. You see, the passage implies that Groening was hiding from view. This is a classic tale. Apparently every SS man needed to be in hiding to have a peak at what was supposedly everyday's business in clear view of everybody in the proverbial "factory of death" of Auschwitz. It's the same with the two only witnesses of the Frankfurt trial and both got away with very light condemnations. How come? Think about it and then draw your own conclusions on the value of this so-called "testimony"...

The premise - "what was supposedly everyday's business in clear view of everybody in the 'factory of death' of Auschwitz' - is false: in late 1942 the gas chambers were located in the woods just outside the Birkenau camp perimeter in two "bunkers," called the little red and little white house. These bunkers were not everybody's business nor in clear view of everybody in the camp but were a "specialist" affair, separate from the rest of the camp - a clue to this is that Gröning said that "a number of Jews who were being marched to the gas chambers had escaped and run to the nearby woods" - these are the woods in which the bunker was located and which made it not in clear view of everybody, so to speak. Pressac's book shows photos of these areas (e.g., pp 176, 182); Pressac also reproduces a number of testimonies about the locations and forests/woods. Nor did "every SS man" need "to be in hiding" to know what was going on in the bunkers: SS Hauptscharfuhrer Otto Moll, to take a notorious example, worked there and testified, not entirely honestly. (Marques's rhetoric, IMO, conflates late 1942 with later periods in the history of Birkenau, when Kremas II-V were in use.)

Was that the portion of Marques's comment you were curious about?
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat May 16, 2015 2:05 am

ryu238 wrote:Hello?

??????
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby ryu238 » Sat May 16, 2015 2:06 am

Sorry, I got impatient waiting for a response...

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby ryu238 » Sat May 16, 2015 2:11 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
ryu238 wrote:How is it a false premise...And which quote are you speaking of?

The one I thought you asked me about -
Calm down, read carefully, think a little, and you'll get the nuance that escaped you. You see, the passage implies that Groening was hiding from view. This is a classic tale. Apparently every SS man needed to be in hiding to have a peak at what was supposedly everyday's business in clear view of everybody in the proverbial "factory of death" of Auschwitz. It's the same with the two only witnesses of the Frankfurt trial and both got away with very light condemnations. How come? Think about it and then draw your own conclusions on the value of this so-called "testimony"...

The premise - "what was supposedly everyday's business in clear view of everybody in the 'factory of death' of Auschwitz' - is false: in late 1942 the gas chambers were located in the woods just outside the Birkenau camp perimeter in two "bunkers," called the little red and little white house. These bunkers were not everybody's business nor in clear view of everybody in the camp but were a "specialist" affair, separate from the rest of the camp - a clue to this is that Gröning said that "a number of Jews who were being marched to the gas chambers had escaped and run to the nearby woods" - these are the woods in which the bunker was located and which made it not in clear view of everybody, so to speak. Pressac's book shows photos of these areas (e.g., pp 176, 182); Pressac also reproduces a number of testimonies about the locations and forests/woods. Nor did "every SS man" need "to be in hiding" to know what was going on in the bunkers: SS Hauptscharfuhrer Otto Moll, to take a notorious example, worked there and testified, not entirely honestly. (Marques's rhetoric, IMO, conflates late 1942 with later periods in the history of Birkenau, when Kremas II-V were in use.)

Was that the portion of Marques's comment you were curious about?

Yes, now I get it, those gas chambers were for special occasions. The quote clearly states 'towards the end of 1942'. Kremas II-V were not operational until March 1943.

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat May 16, 2015 2:21 am

ryu238 wrote:Sorry, I got impatient waiting for a response...

Seriously? I'm on holiday this weekend. I am posting when I have a chance to. If I get to something, I get to it. If not, I don't.
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat May 16, 2015 2:23 am

ryu238 wrote:Hello?


Patience my friend. We have lives as do you.

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby ryu238 » Sat May 16, 2015 2:25 am

...to be honest I have way too much time on my hands.

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby ryu238 » Sat May 16, 2015 2:28 am

ryu238 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
ryu238 wrote:How is it a false premise...And which quote are you speaking of?

The one I thought you asked me about -
Calm down, read carefully, think a little, and you'll get the nuance that escaped you. You see, the passage implies that Groening was hiding from view. This is a classic tale. Apparently every SS man needed to be in hiding to have a peak at what was supposedly everyday's business in clear view of everybody in the proverbial "factory of death" of Auschwitz. It's the same with the two only witnesses of the Frankfurt trial and both got away with very light condemnations. How come? Think about it and then draw your own conclusions on the value of this so-called "testimony"...

The premise - "what was supposedly everyday's business in clear view of everybody in the 'factory of death' of Auschwitz' - is false: in late 1942 the gas chambers were located in the woods just outside the Birkenau camp perimeter in two "bunkers," called the little red and little white house. These bunkers were not everybody's business nor in clear view of everybody in the camp but were a "specialist" affair, separate from the rest of the camp - a clue to this is that Gröning said that "a number of Jews who were being marched to the gas chambers had escaped and run to the nearby woods" - these are the woods in which the bunker was located and which made it not in clear view of everybody, so to speak. Pressac's book shows photos of these areas (e.g., pp 176, 182); Pressac also reproduces a number of testimonies about the locations and forests/woods. Nor did "every SS man" need "to be in hiding" to know what was going on in the bunkers: SS Hauptscharfuhrer Otto Moll, to take a notorious example, worked there and testified, not entirely honestly. (Marques's rhetoric, IMO, conflates late 1942 with later periods in the history of Birkenau, when Kremas II-V were in use.)

Was that the portion of Marques's comment you were curious about?

Yes, now I get it, those gas chambers were for special occasions. The quote clearly states 'towards the end of 1942'. Kremas II-V were not operational until March 1943.

I just realized, Marque is making the same mistake in saying this
Finally here comes Laurence Rees's star witness and what did he see? Oh, he saw the arriving folks being selected on the platform by the thousands (presumably for the giant slaughterhouses that belched smoke day and night) and -- er -- he saw a few folks being killed under cover of the night, in some cottage, in a sort of improvised off-the-cuff gassing in the experimental days...

He thinks these two events happened at the same time right?

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat May 16, 2015 2:30 am

ryu238 wrote:. . . those gas chambers were for special occasions.

More like they were provisional . . . they were simply the first ones put into use at Birkenau. They were where Jews were gassed starting March 1942 (little red house) through early 1943 - then Bunker 2 was "reactivated" (Pressac) for the Hungarian action in 1944.

The gassings were not improvised, off the cuff by the end of 1942; selections began in May and were regular by summer (July) and, while there were not gassings every single day, there were IIRC on most days late in the year (by my quick count - don't hold me to it - 18 days in November and 12 days in December.

ryu238 wrote:The quote clearly states 'towards the end of 1942'. Kremas II-V were not operational until March 1943.

Krema II in March 1943, and I believe all 4 by June, when Krema III became operational. IIRC Krema IV in March and Krema V in April.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sat May 16, 2015 2:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat May 16, 2015 2:33 am

Calm down, have a glass of scotch/grape juice (depending on how old you are), binge watch Mad Men (as I'm doing now) and understand that most of their arguments are based off of twisted and misinterpreted readings of the basic facts. This case is one example, as SM pointed out in his distinction.

If you want to see some hilarious examples of denier stupidity, check out the Dresden thread and the "Amazing shrinking Treblinka" thread. Probably the most fun I've ever had in my time here.

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat May 16, 2015 2:41 am

Or read Pressac or Robert Jan van Pelt . . . or the Auschwitz Museum history of the camp . . .
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat May 16, 2015 2:43 am

RJVP preferably. Or any of Hans's stuff at HC, he would give RJVP a run for his money.

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby ryu238 » Sat May 16, 2015 2:51 am

Jeff_36 wrote:Calm down, have a glass of scotch/grape juice (depending on how old you are), binge watch Mad Men (as I'm doing now) and understand that most of their arguments are based off of twisted and misinterpreted readings of the basic facts. This case is one example, as SM pointed out in his distinction.

If you want to see some hilarious examples of denier stupidity, check out the Dresden thread and the "Amazing shrinking Treblinka" thread. Probably the most fun I've ever had in my time here.

Been there done that.

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat May 16, 2015 2:55 am

Jeff_36 wrote:RJVP preferably. Or any of Hans's stuff at HC, he would give RJVP a run for his money.

Good call. Hans nails this stuff.
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby NathanC » Sat May 16, 2015 3:44 am

Tough luck. Back to Höss’s “confessions” (never mind Richard Baer or Arthur Liebehenschel) and, of course, the Germans that also confessed to have seen the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth: Hans Stark (10 years for gassing Jews, under juvenile law due to his age, in the Frankfurt 1963-65 “Auschwitz Trial”) and Pery Broad (5 years, same trial)…


As a general rule, anyone who pulls some variation of the "Germans were tortured/blackmailed/cut a deal" etc. isn't worth your time.

Here's why.


http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/mar ... tis08z.htm

Former director of the Central Prosecutor's Office, Adalbert Ruckerl, estimates that a "considerable" number of potential Nazi killers could not be brought to trial as a consequence of this distinction (Pendas, 57). Pendas successfully demonstrates German law was not fit in dealing with Nazi crimes through his careful, word-by-word interpretation of ordinary statutes. Due to German law's distinction between Mord and Totschlag, a great number of Nazi criminals could not be tried, allowing for a great injustice to take place in West Germany.

Distinction between perpetrators and accomplices was ultimately made based on subjective orientation of the accused towards the crime, impacting severity of punishment imposed during the Auschwitz Trial. Pendas successfully shows that ordinary statute allowed for great subjectivity during the Auschwitz Trial, allowing lesser convictions for Nazi criminals.

Pendas argues that defendants tactically exploited juridical obsession with perpetrator motivation. First, defendants denied participation in any criminal activity while at Auschwitz, claiming to know nothing of the camp's basic functions. Defendants tried to convince the court that they had joined SS not as committed Nazi idealogues, but as ordinary men caught up in a sweep of events. This argument was designed to elicit sympathy among jurors. The Defense's primary goal was to win an acquittal on objective grounds by claiming that defendants did not commit any crimes. Failing to gain acquittal, the defense wanted to secure lenient sentences on subjunctive grounds, claiming the defendants were not perpetrators, but mere accomplices. Pendas' examination of German law's distinction between perpetrators and accomplices explains why and how the defense was able to claim accomplice status. Pendas proves that ordinary statute gave way to lesser punishment for Nazi criminals during the Auschwitz Trials.

Judge Hofmeyer announced verdicts on August 19 and 20, 1965 (Pendas, 227). Only seven of the twenty defendants were convicted of murder. Ten defendants were convicted of accessory to murder and three were acquitted. Sentences ranged from three and one-quarter years to life in prison.


Marques is either ignorant or lying. Given what the others have shown, he's probably lying. The information I've quoted above is easily accessible and is pretty much common knowledge if you know where to find it. Marques and his like don't mention it because it totally refutes his rubbish about the poor defendants being "blackmailed".

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby ryu238 » Sat May 16, 2015 1:19 pm

Hard to say blackmailed when so many got off for denying everything.

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat May 16, 2015 2:06 pm

Gustav Munzberger at the TII trial is an example. 12 years even though he was the one who directed traffic to the gas chambers.
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat May 16, 2015 3:27 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:Guy Metzberger at the TII trial is an example. 12 years even though he was the one who directed traffic to the gas chambers.

Gustav Munzberger?
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat May 16, 2015 8:15 pm

Auto-correct, sorry. I have to type "Heydrich" six {!#%@} times before it stops changing it to "Hendricks". In that case I wasn't paying attention.

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat May 16, 2015 10:15 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:Auto-correct, sorry. I have to type "Heydrich" six {!#%@} times before it stops changing it to "Hendricks". In that case I wasn't paying attention.

LOL, so if you can stand gawking at a cruel train wreck and Maryzilla, the pathetic POS responsible, take a gander at Maryzilla's attempt to deal with the case of Munzberger: the BS starts with this post where Mary declared eyewitnesses to gas chambers all to be a joke - and continues on and on and on with Maryzilla utterly unable even to speak to her claim in terms of Munzberger.

(A summary of Munzberger's case is found here and here and here and here, in some posts about the judgment against Munzberger and Maryzilla's misunderstanding of the judgment and issues; for me, however, the grotesque fun was the full ride - watching Mary twist and squirm and try to figure out what the hell was going on day after day between her post and the end of the thread.)

Munzberger: 12 years, for aiding and abetting the mass murder of more than 100,000 people. Now, that is a sick joke. Bryant's book, Eyewitness to Genocide: The Operation Reinhard Death Camp Trials, 1955-1966, is an excellent study of the AR trials, and Pendas's book, The Frankfurt Auschwitz Trial, 1963-1965: Genocide, History and the Limits of the Law, details what Nathan wrote above for the Frankfurt Auschwitz trial.
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Sun May 17, 2015 2:45 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:This has been addressed many times. Groning did not describe the gas chambers in the mentioned quote, but he explicitly mentioned them in the rest of his testimony elsewhere in the book. This is much ado about nothing.

Very true. The Portuguese translation on television picks up the nuances of what he meant to say or what he should have meant to say. Just because he didn't literally say exactly what the translator said he said doesn't make the Portuguese language translation wrong. When translating from German to English to Portuguese it is often necessary to supply the nuances that might be lost. He didn't actually say he saw the gas chamber. He said he saw the crematorium, which we know is the gas chamber. Why make a fuss when a translator embellishes testimony with the full meaning?
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun May 17, 2015 3:55 pm

Is it just me or does it seem the difference between document and documentary is often lost on our friends?
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun May 17, 2015 4:02 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Is it just me or does it seem the difference between document and documentary is often lost on our friends?

Not just you. Mary specializes in missing the point and useless trolling.
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun May 17, 2015 5:48 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Is it just me or does it seem the difference between document and documentary is often lost on our friends?

Not just you. Mary specializes in missing the point and useless trolling.

Ah, yeah... trolling. She's said as much.

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viewtopic.php?p=461780#p461780

Aren't we truly blessed... :beamup:
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun May 17, 2015 7:24 pm

Very true. The Portuguese translation on television picks up the nuances of what he meant to say or what he should have meant to say. Just because he didn't literally say exactly what the translator said he said doesn't make the Portuguese language translation wrong. When translating from German to English to Portuguese it is often necessary to supply the nuances that might be lost. He didn't actually say he saw the gas chamber. He said he saw the crematorium, which we know is the gas chamber. Why make a fuss when a translator embellishes testimony with the full meaning?


Mary, Mary, quite contrary, trim that pussy, so damn hairy

There are many times elsewhere in the documentary where he explicitly described gas chambers. The obsessive focus on this one quote is a bit indicative of the mindset of neo-nazi himmler sniffing freaks like you and the author of the Portuguese article.

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby ryu238 » Mon May 18, 2015 1:50 am

Can you point out where else he says it?

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon May 18, 2015 1:58 am

ryu238 wrote:Can you point out where else he says it?

Mary never provides evidence, because he is simply trolling.

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Mon May 18, 2015 2:19 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Very true. The Portuguese translation on television picks up the nuances of what he meant to say or what he should have meant to say. Just because he didn't literally say exactly what the translator said he said doesn't make the Portuguese language translation wrong. When translating from German to English to Portuguese it is often necessary to supply the nuances that might be lost. He didn't actually say he saw the gas chamber. He said he saw the crematorium, which we know is the gas chamber. Why make a fuss when a translator embellishes testimony with the full meaning?


Mary, Mary, quite contrary, trim that pussy, so damn hairy

There are many times elsewhere in the documentary where he explicitly described gas chambers. The obsessive focus on this one quote is a bit indicative of the mindset of neo-nazi himmler sniffing freaks like you and the author of the Portuguese article.

Why the hate? I agree with you. It's not important that Groening did not say what the subtitled translation said he did. Quoting a person as saying something they didn't say doesn't diminish the accuracy of the quote if the quote is embellished with words that he said elsewhere in another context. Like when Jimmy Carter reported seeing a UFO during his first state of the union address or when Abraham Lincoln said that "I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races” in the Emancipation Proclamation or even Gustav Munzberger's explicit reference to the gas chambers (" I know that Mathes who was in charge of Camp lll, at the end of each day when a transport arrived, used to take the gold to the Lower Camp. This relates to gold teeth and valuables of gold that had been found on the corpses. This gold was brought in a small case.")

Putting quotation marks around a statement and attributing that statement to a specific person at a specific place and time has never been intended to convey an exact word for word transcription of what that person said. Do you know how much Holocaust evidence would disappear if people were quoted as saying exactly what they said?

And I shouldn't speak for others on this forum but I don't think Statistical Mechanic and Ryu238 and scrumbbums and Jeff appreciate you calling them obsessive neo-nazi himmler sniffing freaks because they address the topic of this thread.
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon May 18, 2015 2:28 am

ryu238 wrote:Can you point out where else he says it?

The link you provided from HC explains. Also here; some of this already explained here. I think there are other places, too, like the book he drafted, but this is enough to put the lie to what deniers try doing with Gröning. I'm not going to search back through Rees and other possible places where Gröning referred to gas chambers. I've not read a full transcript of his statement of "moral complicity" in his current trial but news reports say that he discussed the extermination of Jews at the camp, told of his knowledge of the gas chambers, and described observing a single gassing (the one discussed above) in late 1942.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Mon May 18, 2015 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon May 18, 2015 2:32 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:. . . even Gustav Munzberger's explicit reference to the gas chambers (" I know that Mathes who was in charge of Camp lll, at the end of each day when a transport arrived, used to take the gold to the Lower Camp. This relates to gold teeth and valuables of gold that had been found on the corpses. This gold was brought in a small case.")

Mary is still trying to pass off that a statement she was able to find on the web from Munzberger represents the sum total of the witness testimony about him and what he himself said about his duties and activities at Treblinka. In this, she practically brags that she's an ignoramus.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:And I shouldn't speak for others on this forum . . . .

Very true. She shouldn't. Which leaves us wondering why she tried to?
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944


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