Oscar Groening liar?

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:04 pm

Nessie wrote:I get all of that.

Then why do you keep stating variations on the idea that these cases establish “precedent that anyone who works in a prison camp is also responsible for what happened there”? They don't.

Nessie wrote:What you don't understand is that I disagree with it.

LOL of course you do, without being able to re-state the standard correctly.

Nessie wrote:I still think that it would be better that people like Groening are encouraged to come forward and give testimony of what they saw, rather than they remain in hiding as they know they will be prosecuted.

I would guess that everyone here gets that; I certainly think you're willing to reject a critical, core legal issue for a chimera.

Nessie wrote:I have said that someone who actually was part of the killing process should be prosecuted. I have said that those with lesser roles to play are better used as witnesses.

You and I differ on the nature of genocidal actions and what constitutes the so-called killing process. We also differ on the value of additional late testimonies.

Nessie wrote:I have also said that those who work at camps were there are atrocities, torture etc, even those not directly involved, should now be aware the precedent has been set that even in the 90s, they could be held to account for what happened.

Again, that is not the standard described by Douglas, which you say you "get."
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:44 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:10 pm

Nessie wrote:I used a common metaphor to describe how circumstances changed.

"Moving the goalposts" is not a common metaphor for changing circumstances; it is a logical fallacy - the technique is used by someone losing an argument to salvage his or her position by introducing arbitrarily changed criteria. This doesn't describe the evolution of legal doctrine in general or in this instance.

Nessie wrote:I have disagreed with the standard rather than described it.

You've repeatedly misstated it.

Nessie wrote:You still don't understand that I am expressing an opinion that Groening would have been better dealt with another way and my reasons why.

Oh, I get it, all right - and I also think your view is based on insufficient understanding of the cases and that it's a non-issue. Decisions on which lawbreakers to prosecute, when to seek deals for testimony - this is just ordinary stuff. We should not throw out sound legal reasoning to gain testimonies as you seem to want to do.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:14 pm

Nessie wrote:I disagree with the decision to prosecute Groening, not Demjanjuk.

The same standard was used in both prosecutions, the one you keep misstating.

Nessie wrote:I had to keep it simple because you keep missing the point. Dodging my point does not say much about you.

Your yes/no was not directed at me but at Nick Terry: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25545&start=80#p637462

Nessie wrote:Off you go then. Dodge my main point.

I've responded your main point umpteen times. Again, this kind of crap belongs at Rodoh.
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:48 pm

I’ve sort of lost the point........
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:03 pm

I think the main issue is pretty simple, for me anyway: is the Demjanjuk/Gröning standard (as outlined by Douglas and elsewhere) an improvement on earlier legal doctrine in Germany?

Nessie's contention that the Gröning prosecution will discourage witnesses from coming forward to fight denial was dealt with right after it was first posted.
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Balmoral95 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:04 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’ve sort of lost the point........


To cut to the chase: Nessie is wrong and everyone else is right. :mrgreen:

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Nessie » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:12 pm

Here is my first point again;

Nessie wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:It’s the thing I feel is the one positive, his speaking about it and his repudiation of deniers.


He redeemed himself through that. The poor man. I feel terrible for him. It's good that they never got the chance to imprison him.


Agreed. The last chance to get testimony from those involved, especially any who saw mass gassing, shooting or cremations has been ruined. Those who are still alive, will keep quiet rather than risk spending their last days in court or prison.


Pretty self explanatory. I do not think he should have been prosecuted because he redeemed himself and spoke out for a good reason that is now not going to happen again, with anyone who worked at a camp.
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Nessie » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:23 pm

Here is my second point;

Nessie wrote:We just need to make sure we are always on the winning side in any future war. As it stands, with the precedent set by the camp guard trials, anyone who works at a camp where there is any sort of abuse is now responsible.


I would say that is self explanatory as well. I was not expecting it to cause a minor storm, it was not a particularly serious comment as we are clearly not about to lose a war. There have been instances of abuse of prisoners and it is right they are dealt with. But the guy who dealt with prisoner property at Guantanamo Bay, the nearest equivalent to Groening in a modern context, is not exactly a war criminal.
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Nessie » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:31 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’ve sort of lost the point........


To cut to the chase: Nessie is wrong and everyone else is right. :mrgreen:


No, I have my opinion on what should have happened and why, others have theirs. :roll:

Clearly it is not a popular opinion.
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:31 pm

I don't see why a Gitmo thug who knew about the torture there and dealt with the prisoner property there should not be punished.

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:35 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:I don't see why a Gitmo thug who knew about the torture there and dealt with the prisoner property there should not be punished.


You conveniently leave out Groening's expression of repentance, as well as his critical work in combatting Holocaust denial. This whole thing stank of betrayal to me.

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:40 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:I don't see why a Gitmo thug who knew about the torture there and dealt with the prisoner property there should not be punished.


You conveniently leave out Groening's expression of repentance, as well as his critical work in combatting Holocaust denial. This whole thing stank of betrayal to me.

Jeff, those issues pertaining to an individual are not relevant to how genocide, or other war crimes/crimes against humanity, should be prosecuted.

As I noted, the most important issue here is what Lawrence Douglas calls the functional participation standard. Do you agree with the way Nessie has stated (IMO misstated) this standard?

Issues about combating HD, leniency in a particular case, deals made to obtain testimony have, first, been dealt with much earlier in this thread (by Sergey Romanov, Balmoral and me) and remain, also, of secondary importance to the general standard in the face of these kinds of crimes.

FWIW I agree with Sergey Romanov about Guantanamo, although the case seems to me quite different to Birkenau.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:40 pm

Nessie wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’ve sort of lost the point........


To cut to the chase: Nessie is wrong and everyone else is right. :mrgreen:


No, I have my opinion on what should have happened and why, others have theirs. :roll:

Clearly it is not a popular opinion.


Nessie, I changed my mind over this. We discussed the process by which German prosecutors determine who they prosecute for these crimes. It isn’t done to cover up for previous mistakes in sentencing or to get elderly cooks.

By his own admission Groening participated in actions that led to the death of Jews. He worked the selection process and processed the money taken from prisoners. When he objected to his superiors over what he saw, his objection was based upon methods, not the fact that Jews were murdered.

While he became contrite over what he’d done, that doesn’t change the fact that he participated in these crimes. I think his actions later in life mitigated this to a small degree and if the court decided to suspend his sentence I wouldn’t have an objection to that.
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:42 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:I don't see why a Gitmo thug who knew about the torture there and dealt with the prisoner property there should not be punished.


You conveniently leave out Groening's expression of repentance, as well as his critical work in combatting Holocaust denial. This whole thing stank of betrayal to me.

Whether or not these factors should have played a role (a fair point to discuss) is irrelevant to the point I was making.
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:43 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:Whether or not these factors should have played a role (a fair point to discuss) is irrelevant to the point was making.

We have discussed these factors at length in the other Gröning thread and in this thread, too. Jeff_36 has been part of all that! I agree that they are irrelevant to the point you made - and also to what I think the most important issue in this discussion is.
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:52 pm

This is not to say that I don't have doubts about the general principle as formulated by some. What are the limits?

But punishing a property-handler from Gitmo? No problem for me.

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Nessie » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:23 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:This is not to say that I don't have doubts about the general principle as formulated by some. What are the limits?

But punishing a property-handler from Gitmo? No problem for me.


Would you punish an elderly property handler who comes forward of their own volition, to speak out against those who tortured and abused?
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Nessie » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:26 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’ve sort of lost the point........


To cut to the chase: Nessie is wrong and everyone else is right. :mrgreen:


No, I have my opinion on what should have happened and why, others have theirs. :roll:

Clearly it is not a popular opinion.


Nessie, I changed my mind over this. We discussed the process by which German prosecutors determine who they prosecute for these crimes. It isn’t done to cover up for previous mistakes in sentencing or to get elderly cooks.

By his own admission Groening participated in actions that led to the death of Jews. He worked the selection process and processed the money taken from prisoners. When he objected to his superiors over what he saw, his objection was based upon methods, not the fact that Jews were murdered.

While he became contrite over what he’d done, that doesn’t change the fact that he participated in these crimes. I think his actions later in life mitigated this to a small degree and if the court decided to suspend his sentence I wouldn’t have an objection to that.


I would also have had no problem with that. It acknowledges what he did was wrong, but it also acknowledges his actions to help tackle denial and his admission. An admission and cooperation with the authorities in return for a lesser sentence is not unusual at all.
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:28 pm

There, see, Nessie, we can agree. And you didn’t even get a holy moly from me....
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:28 pm

:banghead:
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:41 pm

Nessie wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:This is not to say that I don't have doubts about the general principle as formulated by some. What are the limits?

But punishing a property-handler from Gitmo? No problem for me.


Would you punish an elderly property handler who comes forward of their own volition, to speak out against those who tortured and abused?

If your question implies many years had passed, his silence has probably allowed the direct perpetrators go unpunished, so he certainly wouldn't deserve a mere slap on the hand.

If he spoke soon after, and helped to put the direct perpetrators behind the bar, he would deserve a lighter punishment.

Note that obviously we are talking about different punishments than in the Auschwitz case, since the crime scales are incomparable.

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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Nessie » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:51 pm

I suppose a better equivalence would be if an elderly guard at Guantanamo Bay came forward to speak out against people who were denying anything untoward at happened at the camp, to say they are wrong, he was there and he saw torture.
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Re: Oscar Groening liar?

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:59 pm

Nessie wrote:I suppose a better equivalence would be if an elderly guard at Guantanamo Bay came forward to speak out against people who were denying anything untoward at happened at the camp, to say they are wrong, he was there and he saw torture.

Since the crime scales are incomparable, there is no real equivalence.


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