Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:51 am

Survivors, who heard Hanning's apology in court (he also filed a 23-page written statement), welcomed it as far as it went but criticized it as falling short in terms of Hanning's own actual duties, actions, and involvements in Auschwitz:
Hanning spricht viel über Auschwitz, aber er berichtet vor allem Altbekanntes. Er spricht vergleichsweise wenig über sich selbst, über seine Rolle in dem Lager, seine Gefühle angesichts all des Horrors. . . . Schwarzbaum hatte dabei wohl kaum eine Erklärung wie die verlesene im Sinn. "Ich akzeptiere, dass er sich entschuldigt hat. Aber er hätte mehr erzählen müssen, was in Auschwitz passiert ist", sagte Schwarzbaum nach der Verhandlung. Das sei ihm wichtiger als eine Haftstrafe. Schwarzbaums Anwalt Thomas Walther wurde deutlicher: "Der Tod hat in diesem Bericht nicht stattgefunden."

One open question is whether Hanning ever worked on the ramp, for example; another is, Hanning having stated that he did guard duty with orders to shoot anyone trying to escape, whether Hanning shot any prisoners.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun May 01, 2016 11:28 am

Does Werd exist simply to make normal people laugh? On my weekly or so "stroll" through recent topics at RODOH, I came across this illogical lecture Werd tried giving Nessie on logic: Werd tries having it that "a proper defense consisting of DENIAL for a defendant charged with being an accessory to gas chambers is ILLEGAL" and that Germany's HD laws compelled Hanning to affirm in court that Jews were murdered in gas chambers at Auschwitz. Comedy gold.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun May 01, 2016 10:37 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Does Werd exist simply to make normal people laugh? On my weekly or so "stroll" through recent topics at RODOH, I came across this illogical lecture Werd tried giving Nessie on logic: Werd tries having it that "a proper defense consisting of DENIAL for a defendant charged with being an accessory to gas chambers is ILLEGAL" and that Germany's HD laws compelled Hanning to affirm in court that Jews were murdered in gas chambers at Auschwitz. Comedy gold.


Said laws were not conferred until reunification. Werd's pea-brained crib-shitting falls flat on every trail held beforehand.

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun May 01, 2016 11:01 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Does Werd exist simply to make normal people laugh? On my weekly or so "stroll" through recent topics at RODOH, I came across this illogical lecture Werd tried giving Nessie on logic: Werd tries having it that "a proper defense consisting of DENIAL for a defendant charged with being an accessory to gas chambers is ILLEGAL" and that Germany's HD laws compelled Hanning to affirm in court that Jews were murdered in gas chambers at Auschwitz. Comedy gold.


Said laws were not conferred until reunification. Werd's pea-brained crib-shitting falls flat on every trail held beforehand.

Duh, a trial is about an individual's guilt: Hanning is free to offer a defense and his defense could have been that he was not aware of gassings. That he didn't work in the Kremas or on the ramp, etc. There's no German law against defending oneself in court. {!#%@}, the very trial that set the stage for Hanning's trial was Demjanjuk's - and Demjanjuk's defense was that he wasn't there. Which, contra Werd, his attorney, Ulrich Busch, argued time and again. (IIRC section 130 was enacted in the mid-1980s, before reunification, but Werd's pea-brained musing falls flat on every trial before and after.)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon May 02, 2016 7:06 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Does Werd exist simply to make normal people laugh? On my weekly or so "stroll" through recent topics at RODOH, I came across this illogical lecture Werd tried giving Nessie on logic: Werd tries having it that "a proper defense consisting of DENIAL for a defendant charged with being an accessory to gas chambers is ILLEGAL" and that Germany's HD laws compelled Hanning to affirm in court that Jews were murdered in gas chambers at Auschwitz. Comedy gold.


Said laws were not conferred until reunification. Werd's pea-brained crib-shitting falls flat on every trail held beforehand.

Duh, a trial is about an individual's guilt: Hanning is free to offer a defense and his defense could have been that he was not aware of gassings. That he didn't work in the Kremas or on the ramp, etc. There's no German law against defending oneself in court. {!#%@}, the very trial that set the stage for Hanning's trial was Demjanjuk's - and Demjanjuk's defense was that he wasn't there. Which, contra Werd, his attorney, Ulrich Busch, argued time and again. (IIRC section 130 was enacted in the mid-1980s, before reunification, but Werd's pea-brained musing falls flat on every trial before and after.)


Mid 80's, decades after the Frankfurt Auschwitz trial, the Hagen Sobibor Trial, the Stangl Trial the Dusseldorf Treblinka Trial...... You get the point right?

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon May 02, 2016 7:45 pm

I think so . . . if Werd had a point, but the argument he makes is irrelevant as section 30 doesn't prevent a defendant accused of murder, or accessory to murder, from presenting a defense, nor does it require a defendant to affirm the mass murder of Jews. Werd's point is just silly.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue May 03, 2016 12:23 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I think so . . . if Werd had a point, but the argument he makes is irrelevant as section 30 doesn't prevent a defendant accused of murder, or accessory to murder, from presenting a defense, nor does it require a defendant to affirm the mass murder of Jews. Werd's point is just silly.


He's not the first to have made it. It's an old scrapbookpages meme. She used it in regards to....the Stangl trial, which took place about 15 years before the law was put into place. LOL

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue May 03, 2016 12:48 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I think so . . . if Werd had a point, but the argument he makes is irrelevant as section 30 doesn't prevent a defendant accused of murder, or accessory to murder, from presenting a defense, nor does it require a defendant to affirm the mass murder of Jews. Werd's point is just silly.


He's not the first to have made it. It's an old scrapbookpages meme. She used it in regards to....the Stangl trial, which took place about 15 years before the law was put into place. LOL

LOL
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue May 03, 2016 4:20 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I think so . . . if Werd had a point, but the argument he makes is irrelevant as section 30 doesn't prevent a defendant accused of murder, or accessory to murder, from presenting a defense, nor does it require a defendant to affirm the mass murder of Jews. Werd's point is just silly.


He's not the first to have made it. It's an old scrapbookpages meme. She used it in regards to....the Stangl trial, which took place about 15 years before the law was put into place. LOL

LOL


Do these people even......ummm....how do I say this.......Read?

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:34 am

"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:01 pm

Hanning verdict announced in Detmold: guilty as an accessory to the murder of at least 170,000 people; sentence 5 years.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:18 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Hanning verdict announced in Detmold: guilty as an accessory to the murder of at least 170,000 people; sentence 5 years.


IIRC Groning is still out while his case is pending appeal and I imagine the same will happen to Hanning.

I am more ambivalent about this one. I think it looks bad from an optics standpoint, but I had never heard of Hanning and his initial denials of involvement came off as slippery so to speak. But I don't think that the sentence was the right way to go considering his age and whatnot.

I will confess that I respected Groning for his contributions to the Rees book and his stance against denial. His trial, IMO was a shitty way of repaying him. I'm quite adamant about that one.

I will be much more happy of that freak Haversback receives a stiff sentence for her crimes. Time to start hunting the modern day Nazis.

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:33 am

NathanC wrote:For something more interesting than David's nonsense

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/former-ss-lieu ... ia-1503415



One of the top people on the most-wanted list of Nazis has been declared unfit for trial by prosecutors in Germany.

They said former SS lieutenant Gerhard Sommer, 93, had severe dementia. He is one of 10 ex-Nazi officers found guilty in absentia in Italy of one of the country's worst civilian wartime massacres, the murder of 560 civilians in the Tuscan village of Sant'Anna di Stazzema in August 1944.

The Nazis, retreating in northern Italy ahead of Allied troops, surrounded the village early on 12 August and in the space of a few hours murdered men, women and 119 children.

---------

For years, attempts have been made to put Sommer on trial. German prosecutors were confident that if he had been deemed fit, Sommer would "with high probability have been charged with 342 cases of murder, committed cruelly and on base motives".

The decision to drop the trial comes as Oskar Groening, another 93-year-old former Nazi, described as "The Bookkeeper of Auschwitz" is being tried in Germany on at least 300,000


I've heard of this case before. In the past, Germany refused to extradite these people to Italy because from their side, "murderous intent could not be proven". I.e. the "base motives" requirement. It's interesting that he's not being prosecuted despite the charges being much more serious, while Groning is.

Dr. Joachim Neander once voiced the opinion that the zeal in going after people like Demjanjuk and now Groning was an attempt to "make up for letting big and medium fish getting away by going after little fish". I think he's right.


I agree with Dr. Neander. This is a belated attempt to assuage old guilt from the 50's, 60's and 70's. Putting old, frail radio operators or guards is a waste. Because of their age and health it is unlikely they will ever serve a day.

Besides, think about the difficulty of proving an actual CRIME. No forensics, eyewitness testimony is going to be flawed after all of this time. Besides, was serving at Auschwitz proof that a member of the SS actually committed a crime? 7,000 members of the SS served at the Auschwitz camps. We have prisoner testimony that not all of them were cruel

No, these people need to be interviewed and studied, not prosecuted.
Groening especially deserves consideration. He combatted HD and allowed himself to be interviewed. His testimony is of great value to us all.

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:33 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
NathanC wrote:For something more interesting than David's nonsense

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/former-ss-lieu ... ia-1503415



One of the top people on the most-wanted list of Nazis has been declared unfit for trial by prosecutors in Germany.

They said former SS lieutenant Gerhard Sommer, 93, had severe dementia. He is one of 10 ex-Nazi officers found guilty in absentia in Italy of one of the country's worst civilian wartime massacres, the murder of 560 civilians in the Tuscan village of Sant'Anna di Stazzema in August 1944.

The Nazis, retreating in northern Italy ahead of Allied troops, surrounded the village early on 12 August and in the space of a few hours murdered men, women and 119 children.

---------

For years, attempts have been made to put Sommer on trial. German prosecutors were confident that if he had been deemed fit, Sommer would "with high probability have been charged with 342 cases of murder, committed cruelly and on base motives".

The decision to drop the trial comes as Oskar Groening, another 93-year-old former Nazi, described as "The Bookkeeper of Auschwitz" is being tried in Germany on at least 300,000


I've heard of this case before. In the past, Germany refused to extradite these people to Italy because from their side, "murderous intent could not be proven". I.e. the "base motives" requirement. It's interesting that he's not being prosecuted despite the charges being much more serious, while Groning is.

Dr. Joachim Neander once voiced the opinion that the zeal in going after people like Demjanjuk and now Groning was an attempt to "make up for letting big and medium fish getting away by going after little fish". I think he's right.


I agree with Dr. Neander. This is a belated attempt to assuage old guilt from the 50's, 60's and 70's. Putting old, frail radio operators or guards is a waste. Because of their age and health it is unlikely they will ever serve a day.

Besides, think about the difficulty of proving an actual CRIME. No forensics, eyewitness testimony is going to be flawed after all of this time. Besides, was serving at Auschwitz proof that a member of the SS actually committed a crime? 7,000 members of the SS served at the Auschwitz camps. We have prisoner testimony that not all of them were cruel

No, these people need to be interviewed and studied, not prosecuted.
Groening especially deserves consideration. He combatted HD and allowed himself to be interviewed. His testimony is of great value to us all.

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jun 18, 2016 11:16 am

I have terribly mixed feelings about all this. Take the Holocaust out of the equation and imagine some 90-year-old person who is finally, for whatever reasons, put on trial for participating in the murders of 170,000 people, again for whatever reason. Or "only" 50,000 people. Or 500 people. Or 50 people. I would be inclined to be not very concerned with the culprit's age and more than a little pissed that he'd "gotten away with it" for so long.

OTOH, and you can see this to some extent in both the trials of Gröning and Hanning, what at least some of the survivors want most is an honest, forthright statement from the defendant. The public acknowledgment of the wrongs done. Which the criminal justice setting discourages, frankly.

The approach of Truth and Reconciliation Commissions, based on the concept of "restorative" (rather than "retributive") justice is something that interests me. The TRC in South Africa has been criticized for bending the stick toward amnesty and forgiveness - or for promoting reconciliation without justice. But it seems there's an idea there for crimes of these sorts.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:01 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I have terribly mixed feelings about all this. Take the Holocaust out of the equation and imagine some 90-year-old person who is finally, for whatever reasons, put on trial for participating in the murders of 170,000 people, again for whatever reason. Or "only" 50,000 people. Or 500 people. Or 50 people. I would be inclined to be not very concerned with the culprit's age and more than a little pissed that he'd "gotten away with it" for so long.

OTOH, and you can see this to some extent in both the trials of Gröning and Hanning, what at least some of the survivors want most is an honest, forthright statement from the defendant. The public acknowledgment of the wrongs done. Which the criminal justice setting discourages, frankly.

The approach of Truth and Reconciliation Commissions, based on the concept of "restorative" (rather than "retributive") justice is something that interests me. The TRC in South Africa has been criticized for bending the stick toward amnesty and forgiveness - or for promoting reconciliation without justice. But it seems there's an idea there for crimes of these sorts.


My feelings are mixed as well. I understand the need for justice, the victims and their families deserve that. Hoess, for example, deserved the noose because he presided over the death and degradation of over a million people. The people that gave him those orders deserved justice as well. I've never had a problem with the IMT and the subsequent Nuremberg trials. They were a solution to a sticky problem, how do you punish the leaders of a sovereign nation (though the crocodile tears shed by the Soviets over the death of innocents is still nauseating)?
The same holds for the commanders of the camps and the Einsatzgruppen.
The troubling part is someone like Groening. He served at Auschwitz but never directly participated in the deaths of inmates (as far as I know). He even requested a transfer out to a combat unit, which was denied. Is this a crime? The same thing holds for someone who guarded transports or operated the radios. Is this a crime?
I think a better thing to do with the men and women who served in the camps is to take their testimony and document it for the generations to come.

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:24 pm

Good thoughts. The TRC approach is meant to combine justice with reconciliation, so, as I understand it, punishment is not out of the picture. The Gröning case, as Jeff_36 noted, is ultra intriguing because Gröning did, on his own volition, tell the truth, when doing so had to be difficult for him. If exposing, documenting, understanding are critical, it is hard to see the point of prosecuting him. Also, if the points of punishment are deterrence and rehabilitation, here's a man who without punishment came largely to terms with the crimes he was part of and understood their magnitude. As he lived for 70 years without engaging in similar, or any, crimes shows that he was no risk to anyone. What's more, Gröning not only didn't deny the crimes but he felt compelled to say that they took place, so that the general public would not doubt the wrong done.

Eva Kor: "I believe forgiveness is such a powerful thing. It is free. It works. It has no side effects. And this is what our world desperately needs besides punishment." Also, what Kor told Gröning when she hugged him: "appeal to your fellow Nazis to make statements"; "this is your good job to make up for your bad job."
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:34 am

Interesting case in Canada, concerning deportation of Helmut Oberlander, interpreter for an Einstatzgruppe (assigned to EK10A), for falsifying citizenship application - today the Canadian Supreme Court refused to hear the government's challenge to an appeals court order that Oberlander be given "a determination of the extent to which he made a significant and knowing contribution to the crime or criminal purpose of the Ek 10a", thus allowing Oberlander to remain in Canada for now

background on Oberlander's citizenship applicaton

from an article on Oberlanders's flight to US in 1990s:
Wartime documents reveal that Oberlander, an ethnic German from the vicinity of Zaporizhzhya in the Ukraine, served in the Nazi Security Police and SD (the Security Service of the SS) from 1941 until at least 1944. The specific unit in which he served, Special Detachment 10a of Einsatzgruppe D, was comprised of 100 to 120 men and was responsible for annihilating all persons in its areas of operation who were considered "undesirable" by the Nazi regime, particularly the Jewish and Sinti and Roma (so-called Gypsy) inhabitants. In a document later used at the Nuremberg trials, Einsatzgruppe D reported at the beginning of April 1942 that it had "executed" 91,678 persons since the German invasion of the Soviet Union on June 22, 1941. Other captured reports of the unit candidly disclose that tens of thousands of these victims were Jews. During the summer of 1942, Special Detachment 10a was issued a poison gas van with which to carry out additional mass murders, which hitherto had been performed by shooting. In one report to Berlin, Einsatzgruppe D declared that "the Jewish problem has been solved" in the area in which Special Detachment 10a was then operating. In January 1943, Oberlander was awarded the War Meritorious Service Cross Second Class for his service in Special Detachment 10a.

background from “Now Toronto” 
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby NathanC » Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:47 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Interesting case in Canada, concerning deportation of Helmut Oberlander, interpreter for an Einstatzgruppe (assigned to EK10A), for falsifying citizenship application - today the Canadian Supreme Court refused to hear the government's challenge to an appeals court order that Oberlander be given "a determination of the extent to which he made a significant and knowing contribution to the crime or criminal purpose of the Ek 10a", thus allowing Oberlander to remain in Canada for now

background on Oberlander's citizenship applicaton

from an article on Oberlanders's flight to US in 1990s:
Wartime documents reveal that Oberlander, an ethnic German from the vicinity of Zaporizhzhya in the Ukraine, served in the Nazi Security Police and SD (the Security Service of the SS) from 1941 until at least 1944. The specific unit in which he served, Special Detachment 10a of Einsatzgruppe D, was comprised of 100 to 120 men and was responsible for annihilating all persons in its areas of operation who were considered "undesirable" by the Nazi regime, particularly the Jewish and Sinti and Roma (so-called Gypsy) inhabitants. In a document later used at the Nuremberg trials, Einsatzgruppe D reported at the beginning of April 1942 that it had "executed" 91,678 persons since the German invasion of the Soviet Union on June 22, 1941. Other captured reports of the unit candidly disclose that tens of thousands of these victims were Jews. During the summer of 1942, Special Detachment 10a was issued a poison gas van with which to carry out additional mass murders, which hitherto had been performed by shooting. In one report to Berlin, Einsatzgruppe D declared that "the Jewish problem has been solved" in the area in which Special Detachment 10a was then operating. In January 1943, Oberlander was awarded the War Meritorious Service Cross Second Class for his service in Special Detachment 10a.

background from “Now Toronto” 


IMO this is a lot less ambiguous than merely serving in Auschwitz or Sobibor. And it sounds like the issue is about him lying about his citizenship application, rather than participating in eg massacres. Given the fact that the supreme court blocked further proceedings against him, it sounds like Jews don't control canada either. :x

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:04 am

There is a Ukrainian living in Quebec, a beekeeper, who was part of an SS-Galacia unit that partook in the Khatyn massacre (the one by the Germans, not the 1940 one by the Russians). He has thus far avoided trial and refuses to speak of the matter. I for one would prefer it if he fessed up in an interview tbh.

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:33 am

NathanC wrote:IMO this is a lot less ambiguous than merely serving in Auschwitz or Sobibor.

Agree, assuming that he translated orders to the victims, that is direct participation in the mass murder.

NathanC wrote:And it sounds like the issue is about him lying about his citizenship application, rather than participating in eg massacres.

That is what it appears, which is what makes the appeals court directive a bit odd, because it goes to nature of participation.

NathanC wrote:Given the fact that the supreme court blocked further proceedings against him, it sounds like Jews don't control canada either. :x

True dat - and also it seems that he accepted the mass murder done by EK10a but defended himself as not having carried out murders done by the squad.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:13 pm

Our chum Ursula Haverbeck sentenced again for comments she's made - this time in a letter to Detmold's mayor - about the Reinhold Hanning case: 8 months in prison; Haverbeck has yet to serve the earlier 10-month term as the sentence has been appealed.

Infostormer not pleased.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:32 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Our chum Ursula Haverbeck sentenced again for comments she's made - this time in a letter to Detmold's mayor - about the Reinhold Hanning case: 8 months in prison; Haverbeck has yet to serve the earlier 10-month term as the sentence has been appealed.

Infostormer not pleased.


While I disagree on principle with these laws, if these goofballs are going to persist in breaking them they don't get any sympathy from me.

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:48 pm

My feelings for the person are separate to my views about the legal and political issues. She has an opinion: it is stupid, and it is easily refutable. For a number of reasons, I think it is best to "litigate" political disagreements in the various courts of public opinion. Let such despicable buffoons be free to sound off - and give them a good drubbing when they ask for one. In this instance, from what I've read, her protests are so vacuous I don't even think taking the effort drub her is worth it. She's talking to herself, in lies and clichés, and the handful of Rodoh fans, for example.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:00 pm

I think these prosecutions only give these people a platform which is why I disagree with them. Let the nut jobs howl, don't dignify them with laws against their speech.
The only time they should be prosecuted is if they advocate violence.

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:12 pm

The laws are also scary in "a slippery slope" sense: if it is accepted in principle that political speech that is not threatening or tied to violence can be proscribed, where does it stop? What are the instances in which majorities can curtail the rights of minorities in this way? So, yes, prosecute people who undertake illegal actions but not for expressing repugnant ideas. The irony is not lost on me that the Nazis were not exactly paragons of freedom of expression, freedom of assembly, and freedom of association - even for Volksgenossen.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:20 pm

The other point, which you implied and which I agree with, is that this Haverbeck, along with being contemptible, is not the brightest bulb in the marquee. What a moron.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:36 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:The other point, which you implied and which I agree with, is that this Haverbeck, along with being contemptible, is not the brightest bulb in the marquee. What a moron.


A moron with a martyr's complex. Boo hoo, woe is me, I'm a victim of a "thought crime."


:lol:

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:56 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Our chum Ursula Haverbeck sentenced again for comments she's made - this time in a letter to Detmold's mayor - about the Reinhold Hanning case: 8 months in prison; Haverbeck has yet to serve the earlier 10-month term as the sentence has been appealed.

Infostormer not pleased.


Good. {!#%@}.

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:04 am

I have to admit, it was tempting to post an obnoxious comment on infostormer but I doubt they would let it stay.

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:50 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I have to admit, it was tempting to post an obnoxious comment on infostormer but I doubt they would let it stay.


"Veeee oppoze ceshershipp" HHAHAHAHAHAHA right LOL :lol:

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:20 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I have to admit, it was tempting to post an obnoxious comment on infostormer but I doubt they would let it stay.


"Veeee oppoze ceshershipp" HHAHAHAHAHAHA right LOL :lol:



:lol:

Free speech!!!! Free speech!!!! Free speech!!!!! (Only if it's something we agree with)

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:44 pm

A colleague brought this to my attention: "Virtual reality helps Germany catch last Nazi war criminals: Lack of knowledge no longer an excuse as precise 3D model of Auschwitz, showing gas chambers and crematoria, helps address atrocities" Four years ago I heard a session at a conference in which Paul Jaskot discussed separate but similar nascent efforts (my note reads: "Use of 3D maps to see what victims and perpetrators could/couldn’t see around Birkenau" - "Reconstruction of the camp – using SS drawings, photos, Zentralbauleitung drawings, etc.") as part of the Holocaust geographies project, which originated at the USHMM.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby NathanC » Wed Oct 05, 2016 3:06 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:A colleague brought this to my attention: "Virtual reality helps Germany catch last Nazi war criminals: Lack of knowledge no longer an excuse as precise 3D model of Auschwitz, showing gas chambers and crematoria, helps address atrocities" Four years ago I heard a session at a conference in which Paul Jaskot discussed separate but similar nascent efforts (my note reads: "Use of 3D maps to see what victims and perpetrators could/couldn’t see around Birkenau" - "Reconstruction of the camp – using SS drawings, photos, Zentralbauleitung drawings, etc.") as part of the Holocaust geographies project, which originated at the USHMM.


Putting aside the question of whether or not it's "right" to prosecute men for what they did in the 1940s, I think this is a good idea. My opinion of the West German trials is very well known, but one thing the Frankfurt Auschwitz trials did right was to have judges on site to personally confirm if witnesses could indeed have seen what they said they did and check their credibility. This idea of using VR is a good way of doing the same thing.

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Balsamo » Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:18 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Does Werd exist simply to make normal people laugh? On my weekly or so "stroll" through recent topics at RODOH, I came across this illogical lecture Werd tried giving Nessie on logic: Werd tries having it that "a proper defense consisting of DENIAL for a defendant charged with being an accessory to gas chambers is ILLEGAL" and that Germany's HD laws compelled Hanning to affirm in court that Jews were murdered in gas chambers at Auschwitz. Comedy gold.


Said laws were not conferred until reunification. Werd's pea-brained crib-shitting falls flat on every trail held beforehand.



Well, as a matter of fact, the German anti denial law is particular in a way that it is well defined, and as a matter of fact as result, the defense is not allowed to try to prove that you cannot denial something that for the accused "does not exist". If the defense insists, then the lawyer will also be indicted...and as a matter of fact, there is something quite absurd in this.

For example, you are charged with murder, in this case, the defense can try to refute the accusation and plead not guilty, and, if the the act is irrefutable, that is he really killed the victim, try to convince the Jury that the killing was not a murder, but for example an act of self-defense, or even a passionate crime.

Well, if you are facing the denial charge in a German court which is most of the time obvious, that is there is always a writing where you defend the opinion that the gas chambers did not exist or could not exist as described, so the crime is impossible to refute, right? Logically, the only possible defense is trying to convince the jury or the judge, that the denial is not a crime as what you denies could not have taken place...And this is precisely what you cannot do in a German court, as this defense would constitute a crime.


So basically, in those circumstances, the trial is a waste of time as the defense has no other choice than to plead guilty, and beg for the mercy of the Jury...
In this specific case, Hanning would have put himself in further trouble had he tried to even argue that he was not aware that Jews were mass murdered, and not even, that he knew that there were murders but not aware of Gas chambers...He would have faced a second trial after this one his over...And what is more, the lawyer would be also face his own trial, which means that he would probably not agree to this defense in the first place. So there is not much room for other options than just plead guilty and to admit that the Jews were murdered in the gas chambers.

So being indulgent, i would say that what Werd said is not that absurd.


OUps, i realized i have jumped in without reading what had been written.

Any in the case of Groening, the argument is of course irrelevant, as Oskar never denied anything, which is why i do not approve his trial, as he could only be charged because he chose to break the silence and tell the world what really took place. had he chosen to remain silent, he would not have faced charges.

And i cannot help myself but to think that those are indeed kind of show trials, as in my opinion it makes no sense to sentence someone for the charge of complicity of having killed 170.000 people to....5 years. Come on, is that a joke?
While i admit that i would not have pressed charges in the first place, my opinion is that if you chose to do so, then you have to go to the end of the logic, and sentenced the prosecuted to live in prison.
5 years for complicity for the murder of 170.000 people is a bad joke!

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 05, 2016 11:28 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Does Werd exist simply to make normal people laugh? On my weekly or so "stroll" through recent topics at RODOH, I came across this illogical lecture Werd tried giving Nessie on logic: Werd tries having it that "a proper defense consisting of DENIAL for a defendant charged with being an accessory to gas chambers is ILLEGAL" and that Germany's HD laws compelled Hanning to affirm in court that Jews were murdered in gas chambers at Auschwitz. Comedy gold.


Said laws were not conferred until reunification. Werd's pea-brained crib-shitting falls flat on every trail held beforehand.

Well, as a matter of fact, the German anti denial law is particular in a way that it is well defined, and as a matter of fact as result, the defense is not allowed to try to prove that you cannot denial something that for the accused "does not exist". If the defense insists, then the lawyer will also be indicted...and as a matter of fact, there is something quite absurd in this.

Hanning was not compelled to affirm in court that Jews were murdered in gas chambers at Auschwitz or that he knew they were (see below).

I'm not aware - maybe I'm misinformed - of where the Hanning trial got into the issue of the application of § 130 to Hanning's defense.

Hanning offered a defense against the charges, IIRC in his case based on biographical/situational factors as well as technical legal grounds, just as Demjanjuk offered a defense against the charges against him for serving at Sobibor. Was Hanning prevented from further defending himself by claiming that he wasn't aware of the camp's work? Werd doesn't know, or at least his post didn't explain how.

Was Hanning prevented from claiming that his role was too minimal to rise to the Demjanjuk standard? No, because the defense did make such an appeal.

What Hanning did testify was this, as quoted above:
“People were being shot, gassed and burned. I could see corpses being moving around and off the site, yes, one was aware of that. I noticed the smell of burning. I knew that corpses were being burned,” he said.

“Of course I found out that trains arrived in Auschwitz crammed full of people. We were aware that the majority of people who arrived in the trains were killed.”

And:
"I'm of the opinion that every member of the guard battalion knew what was going on. This didn't depend upon one's own particular service. Naturally some comrades were closer to it and others less close. With close to it, I mean close to the killing."

But, apart from what Hanning said, according to some observers, Hanning was too reticent when it came to his own role. Hanning admitted to knowing about the murders and to working in the camp - but he never said if he shot a prisoner, played a role in the gassing process, etc.

But the co-plaintiffs wanted, for historical reasons, Hanning to provide a detailed description of his duties, work, conditions, etc in the camp. He didn't, to the frustration of the co-plaintiffs, that is, Hanning failed to do, and was permitted to fail to do, precisely what Werd says he was compelled to do!

Is there evidence that Hanning's testimony was coerced on account of HD legislation?

Balsamo wrote:Well, if you are facing the denial charge in a German court

That's not the topic. The topic is someone facing an accessory charge to murders committed during the Holocaust.

Balsamo wrote:So basically, in those circumstances, the trial is a waste of time as the defense has no other choice than to plead guilty, and beg for the mercy of the Jury...

Not following.

Also, Demjanjuk offered elements of the defense you say is prohibited in his German trial, which undermines the complete premise of Werd's post and much of what you're writing here. Whilst I don't recall his discussing the issue of HD, which wasn't relevant in Demjanjuk's trial, Lawrence Douglas does outline Demjanjuk's defense - his lead attorney argued on the one hand that the court was a special court under special law and selective in its prosecution (going after the little guy) (e.g., going after Demjanjuk but the Trawniki commander and the SS leader of Trawnikis at Sobibor had both been acquitted) - and on the other insisting that Demjanjuk wasn't at Sobibor at all and that Demjanjuk was being framed by the OSI, the SWC, and the WJC. The defense challenged evidence and introduced its theories, which, while not presenting a defense of HD, show that Demjanjuk wasn't compelled to plead guilty.

OTOH German courts usually show themselves unlikely to allow defendants to use the courtroom for propaganda, antics, disruptions, etc.

Balsamo wrote:In this specific case, Hanning would have put himself in further trouble had he tried to even argue that he was not aware that Jews were mass murdered, and not even, that he knew that there were murders but not aware of Gas chambers...He would have faced a second trial after this one his over...And what is more, the lawyer would be also face his own trial, which means that he would probably not agree to this defense in the first place. So there is not much room for other options than just plead guilty and to admit that the Jews were murdered in the gas chambers.

Speculation. Certainly if he denied being aware of something he can be proven to have been aware of, Hanning could have faced problems for that.

Werd's point - that a proper defense of a person charged with murder at Auschwitz or another camp is impossible because of anti-HD laws - just doesn't fit the facts.

Balsamo wrote:So being indulgent, i would say that what Werd said is not that absurd.

You'd have to be very indulgent to believe such a view.

Balsamo wrote:OUps, i realized i have jumped in without reading what had been written.

Any in the case of Groening, the argument is of course irrelevant, as Oskar never denied anything, which is why i do not approve his trial, as he could only be charged because he chose to break the silence and tell the world what really took place. had he chosen to remain silent, he would not have faced charges.

Not true. Others who did not take the public stance that Gröning took are being tried. We can start with Demjanjuk, whose German trial paved the way for Gröning's trial.

My take is that the German law, after Demjanjuk, is in a better place to deal with genocidal murder than it was during the postwar period. That's what Werd is really upset about - that people with responsibility for helping the murder operations would be less likely to get off had this legal standard been in place after the war. No indulgence from me.
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- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:42 am

Like I said, the law was only inputted after reunification, so it holds no ground for any trial held beforehand.

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:23 pm

Werd's comment however related to the Hanning trial, which was this past year. His charge was that Hanning is prohibited through § 130 from availing himself of certain defenses and that he was compelled to admit to the mass killings by § 130. Pre- § 130 trials are a different matter.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:52 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Werd's comment however related to the Hanning trial, which was this past year. His charge was that Hanning is prohibited through § 130 from availing himself of certain defenses and that he was compelled to admit to the mass killings by § 130. Pre- § 130 trials are a different matter.


Gen Baugher from Scrapbookpages made the argument in relation to the Stangl Trial, which was in 1970, 20 years before the law was passed. LOL

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:54 pm

That's even more bizarre. I haven't seen examples of what Werd and Balsamo claim here - but if Balsamo can show them, I will happily admit to being mistaken.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927


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