Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:39 pm

Here’s a new case, this one in Poland, which does not rely on German law or on the Demjanjuk ruling but does involve accusations of mass murder against a man who lives in Minnesota and is 98 years old. In 2013 Germany decided not to pursue a case against this man, a Ukrainian commander of the Ukrainian Self Defense League, a unit under SS command and later incorporated into the SS’s Galician Division; Germany passed on prosecution due to the man's presumed age-related health problems; Poland has decided now, based on evidence gathered over a number of years, to proceed. Polish investigators (IPN) have asked a Lublin court to issue an arrest warrant, after which Poland is expected to pursue extradition of the man from the US.

The accused is not said to have been directly involved in the retaliatory mass murder at the Polish village of Chlaniow in Lublin region but will be charged because he had command responsibility of the unit involved; evidence is said to place him at the scene of the murders. It is further possible that the accused lied on his immigration entry papers to the US. The Polish authorities are not concerned that the man is nearly 100 years old.

News articles on this case:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/ ... -minnesota

http://www.dw.com/en/polish-prosecutor- ... a-37919699

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/14/worl ... .html?_r=0

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nati ... story.html

https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2017/0314 ... war-crimes

https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2 ... e-deported

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... s/2422427/

https://www.thedailybeast.com/accused-n ... nds-to-gop
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Balsamo » Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:17 am

Does anyone knows if Poland has introduced in its criminal law, war crimes and crimes against humanity? I would guess so, but i am not sure.
I don't really understand the phrase "It is further possible that the accused lied on his immigration entry papers"...Does he first have to go through a "denationalization trial"? or can he be expelled ASAP to Poland?

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:36 am

>> war crimes, crimes against humanity

The remit of the IPN, created IIRC late in the '90s, includes not only research and education but investigations, identification and disqualification of perpetrators, and prosecution (not sure of the exact role). I recall, from reading about the Jan Gross controversy and elsewhere, that the IPN's remit does include war crimes and crimes against humanity, both from the Nazi era and from the Communist era - that's the whole point of it. Polish law is not a topic I've read about in depth or recall a lot about. This point, about the IPN and its scope, is covered in the NY Times article I linked to, but not in depth.

>> I don't really understand the phrase "It is further possible that the accused lied on his immigration entry papers"

The Chicago Tribune article notes that "AP's initial investigation found that Karkoc entered the U.S. in 1949 by failing to disclose to American authorities his role as a commander in the SS-led Ukrainian Self Defense Legion. The investigation found that Karkoc was in the area of the massacres, but did not uncover evidence linking him directly to atrocities."

If this is true, Mr Karkoc falsified his admission application. That is how to understand the phrase.

To be clear, I am not implying, as I don't know, that action would be taken against him by the US, although material falsification of such forms is grounds for expulsion. This is what the USA Today story says about the issue:
Policy at the time of Karkoc's immigration application — according to a declassified secret U.S. government document obtained by the AP from the National Archives — was to deny a visa to anyone who had served in either the SS Galician Division or the OUN. The U.S. does not typically have jurisdiction to prosecute Nazi war crimes but has won more than 100 "denaturalization and removal actions" against people suspected of them.

Department of Justice spokesman Michael Passman would not comment on whether Karkoc had ever come to the department's attention, citing a policy not to confirm or deny the existence of investigations.

>> Does he first have to go through a "denationalization trial"? or can he be expelled ASAP to Poland?

The process is known as denaturalization. I've read about US immigration law and denaturalization but don't have detailed recollection of the field, including the range of possibilities when a naturalized citizen is subject to an extradition request. As I wrote, the next step, from the Polish pov, is indeed extradition. But I'd have to go back to Douglas' book on immigration law to recall the particulars of how this might work. Nor do I know in any detail level what legal strategies are open to Mr Karkoc in contesting extradition.

I included the links as they represent the sum total of what I know about this case; I felt that sharing the pieces I read and having others read them too was the best I could do. Most of what you ask is touched on in the articles but not in detail and not alternative scenarios and if/thens. I am sure searching for IPN would turn up additional detail about Polish war crimes law as would looking at Douglas and other books be informative about the US side of this, in the context of war crimes cases.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:43 pm

a sober, very pessimistic asessment of the Mladic trial and verdict
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Balsamo » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:46 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:a sober, very pessimistic asessment of the Mladic trial and verdict


Sober, i don't know...emotional yes
pessimistic, indeed, and i share his concerns. But if one will ever reach such a thing as a "Neutral Permanent International Court", one will have to adopt a more neutral stance, and focus on the crimes instead on who commits them.
If the proposition is to establish a court to judge only designated criminals (in this article, it seems only the Serbs, Mugabe, Bashar, etc) should be put on trial, then there will always be one side that will feel free to commit crimes.
International Justice should go after any criminal whether a criminal is a Djihadist, a Serb, an American, a French, Belgian, etc...

The International Court for Yougoslavia did its best, but was it really independent? It did indicted criminals from all camps, condemned them, but a court of appeal strangely acquitted the Croatian general also involved in the war in Bosnia, not a word of the Jihadists financed by the Saudi Arabia, trained by the USA, coming from AS, Yemen, Pakistan and Afghanistan, to lead a Jihad against all christian in this martyr province... Bosnia was composed of 50% moderate muslims, 30 % Serbs (Bosnia is actually their ancestry home) and 20% of Croatians...Up to 5000 Islamist fought there...5 of them would later participated to 9/11...But back then
the US still thought they could use those fanatics.

It is awful to say, but i am pretty sure that if this conflict would have taken place today, the USA would have supported the Serbs, no matter what.

It is not to say that i support the Serbs or whoever among this criminals. I am glad that some have been convicted, and of course, disappointed that some will be allowed to be left untouched.
But this conflict was way to complicated, actually.
It was highly decentralized, disorganized, full of small warlords, all committing their own crimes, rapes, ethnic cleansings,

But maybe not a topic appropriate to this forum.

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:01 am

Balsamo wrote:The International Court for Yougoslavia did its best, but was it really independent? It did indicted criminals from all camps, condemned them, but a court of appeal strangely acquitted the Croatian general also involved in the war in Bosnia, not a word of the Jihadists financed by the Saudi Arabia, trained by the USA, coming from AS, Yemen, Pakistan and Afghanistan, to lead a Jihad against all christian in this martyr province... Bosnia was composed of 50% moderate muslims, 30 % Serbs (Bosnia is actually their ancestry home) and 20% of Croatians...Up to 5000 Islamist fought there...5 of them would later participated to 9/11...But back then
the US still thought they could use those fanatics.


I think there are some misconceptions in general about this issue. I don't think there were 5.000, a couple of regiments maybe, and Izetbegovic kicked them out when he learned about their atrocities. Osama Bin-Laden lost every interest he had in the Bosnia case, when he heard Izetbegovic condemning antisemitism.
The real case were the Iranian Guard IRGC guys that Richard Holbrooke said 'it was the most difficult decision, just like Churchill's when he had to be Stalin's ally', check also here:
https://books.google.gr/books?id=geapBA ... an&f=false

Bosnia charges and punishes her generals and officers for this issue, for example, Enver Hadzihasanovic or Sakib Mahmuljin:
http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article ... 01-07-2016

ICTY convicted General Rasim Delic, also.

But there are a lot of other stories, mainly not true.

Well, there's a very funny guy, a former NSA agent kicked out for ... certain reasons (see below for some links), who goes around and telling people absurd things. This one:

- John Schindler, Unholy Terror: Bosnia, Al-Qa'ida, and the Rise of Global Jihad
http://www.amazon.com/Unholy-Terror-Bos ... 0760330034

The above book is pure junk, I still cry for my 5 dollars (it was on discount).

This is a good one:
Evan Kohlmann, 'Al-Qaida's Jihad in Europe: The Afghan-Bosnian Network', Berg, Oxford and New York, 2004.

- Also:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/a ... es.comment

«Mojahedin fighters were also flown in, but they were reserved as shock troops for especially hazardous operations».
«These Islamic fighters had a minimal impact on the actual fighting of the war. The presence of the mujahideen and their participation in the war did not bring us a single tactical or strategic victory and it didn't mean anything in terms of the success of the fight against the aggressor»

- Please, read this:
https://greatersurbiton.wordpress.com/2 ... in-bosnia/

And this:
http://www.bosnia.org.uk/bosrep/report_ ... portid=173

- For Schindler and ... reasons, see:

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140 ... tory.shtml
http://gawker.com/nsa-spook-turned-twit ... 1594848048
http://www.everyjoe.com/2014/06/23/play ... scandal/#9

And here:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc ... cs/281941/

On a different level, my take on Mladic:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=28100&p=615658#p615658
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:07 am

Jakiw Palij - a US denaturalization and expulsion case that involves the current situation of a Trawniki, resident of Jackson Heights, Queens, who was found to have lied on his US entry application, I believe, in 1949. In 2003 when Palij lost his US citizenship on account of his fraudulent documentation, the NY Times explained that
Mr. Palij, 79, presented what lawyers say is a confrontational but not unknown defense in deportation cases stemming from the Nazi era. He introduced no evidence and declared that the government's case was based on ''an expression of opinion about history.'' . . .

Justice Department lawyers presented Judge Ross with five volumes of historical documents to support their claims that Mr. Palij served in the SS and was a guard at the Trawniki camp in occupied Poland at a time when 6,000 Jewish prisoners were fatally shot there.

Those materials included rosters of units that committed atrocities, showing that Mr. Palij was a member. The government did not present evidence that he participated in any killings.

Part of the government's case was an analysis by Peter Black, a senior historian at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, who concluded that the records showed Mr. Palij ''served as an armed guard of civilian prisoners at a forced-labor camp for Jews at Trawniki.''
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Balsamo » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:41 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Jakiw Palij - a US denaturalization and expulsion case that involves the current situation of a Trawniki, resident of Jackson Heights, Queens, who was found to have lied on his US entry application, I believe, in 1949. In 2003 when Palij lost his US citizenship on account of his fraudulent documentation, the NY Times explained that
Mr. Palij, 79, presented what lawyers say is a confrontational but not unknown defense in deportation cases stemming from the Nazi era. He introduced no evidence and declared that the government's case was based on ''an expression of opinion about history.'' . . .

Justice Department lawyers presented Judge Ross with five volumes of historical documents to support their claims that Mr. Palij served in the SS and was a guard at the Trawniki camp in occupied Poland at a time when 6,000 Jewish prisoners were fatally shot there.

Those materials included rosters of units that committed atrocities, showing that Mr. Palij was a member. The government did not present evidence that he participated in any killings.

Part of the government's case was an analysis by Peter Black, a senior historian at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, who concluded that the records showed Mr. Palij ''served as an armed guard of civilian prisoners at a forced-labor camp for Jews at Trawniki.''


Thanks.
So the guy lost citizenship, but still lives in the USA?
Well, then, if there is a will on both side, he could faced trial in Poland pretty soon, isn't it?

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:05 pm

Palij is likely, according to those who know, to die in the US as no other country will take him. I do not believe that Palij is facing charges in Poland. Poland has said that they will not accept expulsion of Palij to Poland.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:28 am

Palij update (WaPo paywall) - Germany (and Poland) still refusing to take Palij
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Balsamo » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:46 pm

Understand now, was confused because you wrote earlier:

"Poland has decided now, based on evidence gathered over a number of years, to proceed. Polish investigators (IPN) have asked a Lublin court to issue an arrest warrant, after which Poland is expected to pursue extradition of the man from the US."

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:30 pm

Ah but that post pertained to the case of a man living in Minnesota, Michael Karkoc, thought to have committed atrocities as a member of SS-led Ukrainian Self Defence Legion and later an officer in the SS Galician Division - not to Jakiw Palij, the former Trawniki living in Queens. :)
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Balsamo » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:33 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Ah but that post pertained to the case of a man living in Minnesota, Michael Karkoc, thought to have committed atrocities as a member of SS-led Ukrainian Self Defence Legion and later an officer in the SS Galician Division - not to Jakiw Palij, the former Trawniki living in Queens. :)


:oops: :lol:

The US immigration was really doing a great Job in those days !!

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Re: Oskar Gröning Auschwitz trial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:58 pm

Not an area about which I have great knowledge - my recollection is that after WWII the US passed special legislation (this I know is right - the Displaced Persons Act - 1948 - pertained to easing admissions for DPs and which was extended in the early '50s by the Refugee Relief Act) - 100s of 1000s of admissions to the US occurred under these acts, and Truman's executive orders prior to the DPA, perhaps 650,000+ (I can't recall exactly) - of which 10,000 maybe - certainly in this order of magnitude - came about on the basis of fraudulent applications, probably not all of those applications from war criminals. It wasn't until the '70s that the US began looking back at these situations and taking action against those who'd fraudulently entered the US in the years after the war.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817


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