Evidence Against Resettlement

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Evidence Against Resettlement

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:11 pm

"resettlement" is the underpinning of every denier argument. If we disprove resettlement, we disprove the whole shebang.

I intend this thread to be a catalogue of sorts of evidence of all kinds against the resettlement thesis. The more participants the better.

I will start. Karl Wolff, in his trial in 1971 argued that he had no idea of the true purpose of TII and assumed that it was a reservation where Jews were to be sent. A reservation, not a transit camp. There would have been no need for secrecy around a simple resettlement program, and Wolff would have been made well aware had such an action been going on. It is truly ironic that Wolff, despite denying all knowledge, sunk the revisionist ship with his line of defence. I could shake that bastards hand for doing that.

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Re: Evidence Against Resettlement

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:52 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:. . . There would have been no need for secrecy around a simple resettlement program . . .

Even more so, the program couldn't have been kept secret, by its very nature, once it got underway.

So there are two options:

1) Resettlement as a plan not executed. As been-there from RODOH used to try arguing, the intent was to resettle the Jews later, at some point, but the war and the reversals of Germany's fortunes got in the way. The trouble with this "thesis" is simple: where did the Germans park 3.5+ million Jews - and feed and supply them - in 1942-1944? How would, for example, Treblinka figure in such a plan if it weren't a transit but a holding camp?

This post, which addressed a different claim (namely, that Treblinka was a transit camp that would hold the daily number of arrivals for a day or so before sending them on), shows the magnitude of the problem - TII lacked reception facilities even for 6,000 people - let alone for nearly 800,000 to be held for months, with food, etc brought into the camp for them . . . this dog, the holding camp dog, won't hunt . . .

2) Resettlement was ongoing during the war. See above, we already have a numbers problem with TII, to continue with that example, for reception (where were the vast sleeping halls required?), showering and disinfestation (where were the hygiene facilities again? the showers, the fumigation rooms?), and then transit east.

But the resettlement claims has further flaws:

a) Without enumerating all the problems in Eric Hunt's notion as discussed in the Arad's Goof thread, suffice to say here that Hunt "proved" for Treblinka again what has been long known - about 2,387 out of nearly 800,000 deportees can be shown to have moved on - and those mostly to KLs where they were murdered in fall 1943. We could tackle Bełzec, Sobibór, and Chelmno and find little substantive difference. Birkenau, partly due to timing, is somewhat different, in that Jews selected for labor there were a higher % than at BSTC; we might want to drill down more into Birkenau . . .

b) There is the "where did they go" problem, just as there is a "where were they held" problem for the postponed resettlement idea. Even Eric Hunt has asked for help finding where Jews from Warsaw, for example, went in 1942, if not Treblinka. We can look at large, demographic data or at specific cases (as here with 10 places and more than 1 million Jews to be accounted for) - in either case, there's no explanation for where so many Jews disappeared to. Compounding this is, of course, that the territory where Jews might be sent during the war progressively shrank in 1943-1945. So any coherent answer has to discuss where Jews went - were there few or many resettlement areas, where were they, what demographic information can be provided about these places before and after the arrival of the resettlers? Were the resettled Jews housed in camps or blended in with the existing civilian population? We would expect to be given town or camp names, at least the preponderance of them, etc.

c) On top of this is the "how did they get there" problem. We have records and testimonies, even photographs, of Jews being taken to Birkenau and the Einsatz Reinhard camps, to Majdanek, to Chelmno. What has been brought forward for transit to the East, for large numbers of Jews? Specifically from identified way-stations/transit camps? And what were the specifically identified transit camps? What transportation authorities were involved and what trains or other conveyances? Who made the arrangements? Who guarded and supervised the actual transports - what units, who was in command, etc? How big were they? What routes did they take? How did they avoid combat areas as they went East? Were the trains fired upon? Were there complications from the Red Army or partisans? How close in the East to the front lines were the resettlers taken and how was this managed?

d) Then, to the point about secrecy, we are talking about moving millions of people to new homes - and yet no one noticed, apparently. Part of this point is about witnesses, sorry to inform Mary, because people notice population movements of this magnitude. What media reports were there about so many newcomers from across Europe, all of them Jewish? What did people think of seeing Germans drop off transports in the midst of their communities? Was there national, local, or Jewish resistance? How was it dealt with? Where are the reports of this whole operation? Who were some of the eyewitnesses? Were the re-settled Jews in contact with relatives they had in other countries? Another part of it has to do with a lot of non-transport logistics issues, such as

- feeding, clothing, general provisioning, etc of Jews en route and on arrival wherever they were taken
- plans for what the settlers would do after settling in - farming, workshops, etc - and supplies for such activities; training and re-education measures needed to start lives in new place and under new conditions; work assignments, economic impact on the settled areas
- infrastructure needs and impact, including health and sanitation measures undertaken
- security considerations: whether the Jews remained under German control or not, under which governing authority the resettlers lived, what individuals led the communities of resettlers and according to what frame of laws; the German units that stayed on or turned over the large numbers of resettlers and the authorities to whom they were turned over
- language issues (large numbers of German, Polish, Lithuanian, French, Dutch, etc speakers in the new settlements in the East) - need to manage this and deal with integration issues for many different language and cultural groups
- communications - mail, telephone service, etc
- policy toward local authorities - introduction of newcomers (not solicited and most likely unwelcome); need to; negotiations, fiats, armed force, etc
- living quarters for increased population; samples of floor plans, descriptions of abodes

And, of course, the contemporary documents and records supporting the elements above. Forensic evidence for the resettlement. We would also want to know about post-war testimony and memories of the resettlement, from perpetrators, bystanders (locals), and resettlers themselves, and what the resettlers did following the war.

We've seen in this subforum and every other discussion of these problems that deniers lack answers. Typically, they confuse themselves about the evidence, as Kues does with his claim for Dutch Jews in the Baltics, or they cite a few exceptional cases (Eric Hunt, Maryzilla), or they handwave the issues away ("Jews went where Jews are," quibbles about the population data), or they try changing the topic to extermination methods, etc.

As important as answers to the specific questions is building an account of the history - a narrative of what happened and how and why, involving whom - and when. To my knowledge, lacking evidence and answers to basic question, deniers haven't even tried to write a history of the supposed resettlement. But that is how we know about our past - through narratives of it, not disconnected points, cherrypicked facts, and negation.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Evidence Against Resettlement

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:20 pm

If they were resettled anywhere, why deprive them of eyeglasses and walking sticks?

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Re: Evidence Against Resettlement

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:21 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:If they were resettled anywhere, why deprive them of eyeglasses and walking sticks?

And most of their belongings. And most of their money.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Evidence Against Resettlement

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:23 pm

Speaking of been-there, one of his key exhibits for resettlement was Buehler, who testified at Nuremberg about the Führer's plan to resettle the Jews as conveyed to him by Himmler.

In the first place, Buehler didn't exactly concede, and he didn't exactly challenge that the mass murders were carried out. He was testifying at the IMT for Hans Frank. In doing so, he had a main goal of distancing Frank from the mass murders, if they happened at all. His testimony was a fairly usual blend of bizarre denial, fanciful claims, and legalistic caviling: Buehler kept saying that as far as he knew the Jews were removed, from the General-Gouvernment - but that whatever happened to them was done by the police. He had the chutzpah to deny that Majdanek was in the General-Gouvernment! Buehler was asked a series of pointed questions about the property of murdered Jews; his replies kept shifting to Jews who were just dispossessed in what he laid out as the "regular" way.

That said, here is Buehler's "resettlement" argument as presented on the witness stand on 23 April 1946in Nuremberg. He argued, in a nutshell, that fit Jews were to be sent to Russia on the Führer's order and that those not up to the rigors of this resettlement would go to Theresienstadt:
At that moment Heydrich's invitation [to the Wannsee conference] to the Governor General was received. The conference was originally supposed to take place in November 1941 [December 1941 actually], but it was frequently postponed and it may have taken place in February 1942 [20 January 1942 in fact].

Because of the special problems of the Government General I had asked Heydrich for a personal interview and he received me. On that occasion, among many other things, I described in particular the catastrophic conditions which had resulted from the arbitrary bringing of Jews into the Government General. He replied that for this very reason he had invited the Governor General to the conference. The Reichsfuehrer SS, so he said, had received an order from the Fuehrer to round up all the Jews of Europe and to settle them in the Northeast of Europe, in Russia. I asked him whether this meant that the further arrival of Jews in the Government General would cease, and whether the hundreds of thousands of Jews who had been brought into the Government General without the permission of the Governor General would be moved out again. Heydrich promised me both these things. Heydrich said furthermore that the Fuehrer had given an order that Theresienstadt, a town in the Protectorate, would become a reservation in which old and sick Jews, and weak Jews who could not stand the strains of resettlement, were to be accommodated in the future. This information left me definitely convinced that the resettlement of the Jews, if not for the sake of the Jews, then for the sake of the reputation and prestige of the German people, would be carried out in a humane fashion. The removal of the Jews from the Government General was subsequently carried out exclusively by the Police.

I might add that Heydrich demanded, particularly for himself, his office, and its branches, the exclusive and uninterrupted competence and control in this matter.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/04-23-46.asp

This is actually quite damning in that Buehler admits to having a private audience on the G-G program with Himmler. Also Buehler would have been at the 16 December 1941 meeting where Hans Frank informed his men that Hitler was planning to allow them to "intervene in way that leads to their [the Jews] successful annihilation" in the G-G, following the 12 December meeting which Frank had attended in Berlin. Buehler saw his wings clipped during this period with Kruger being appointed State Secretary for Security shortly after Wannsee.

Buehler was the G-G's representative at Wannsee; there, he advocated that the Final Solution be started in the General-Gouvernement for the express reasons that there'd be no transportation issues there and most of the G-G's Jews weren't fit for labor - a very different thought to what he testified at Nuremberg - where he tried to argue that the G-G Jews and all the rest were to be transported to northeastern Europe, somewhere in northern Russia, and all the unfit Jews from the G-G would be accommodate in Theresienstadt.

So here is how the Wannsee protocol summarizes Buehler's pitch at the Wannsee meeting:
State Secretary Dr. Boehler [sic] stated that the General Government would welcome it if the final solution of this problem could be begun in the General Government, since on the one hand transportation does not play such a large role here nor would problems of labor supply hamper this action. Jews must be removed from the territory of the General Government as quickly as possible, since it is especially here that the Jew as an epidemic carrier represents an extreme danger and on the other hand he is causing permanent chaos in the economic structure of the country through continued black market dealings. Moreover, of the approximately 2 1/2 million Jews concerned, the majority is unfit for work.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/04-23-46.asp

According to Buehler, at Wannsee, Frank and he wanted the Jews to be "removed" - but without any transportation role - where were they going and how would they get there? Weak, old and sick Jews were to go to Theresienstadt - yet according to Buehler at Wannsee the majority of the G-G's Jews were not fit for work and thus unable to "stand the strains of resettlement." Where in Theresienstadt were the majority of the G-G's 2.5 million Jews supposed to fit?

And this was been-there's Case #1 for the claim that during 1942 to Reich undertook to resettle Jews - according to been-there - in Madagascar, Russia, somewhere. Buehler had no coherent argument that Jews were murdered and their property seized, he played Jimmy the Dunce on Majdanek, and he tried putting over that the more than 1 million unfit Jews in the G-G would somehow be squeezed into Theresienstadt whilst the remainder went to an unidentified location in Russia without impacting transportation!

Anyway, Smirnov tore into Buehler on this, like so:
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I would draw your attention to the date-21 February 1944. At that time were there any Jews still alive in Poland, or were the Jewish ghettos already quite empty?

BUEHLER: The Jewish ghettos were empty, but there were still some Jews; I know that because they were being used in one way or another in the armament industry. Jewish property could not have been removed from the territory, it must have been somewhere in the Government General, very probably near the ghettos or wherever else the evacuation of Jews took place. And this telegram, I repeat, does not concern stores which were in concentration camps; they were everywhere. Every place had property stored somewhere which originated from the resettlement of the Jews.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Then the Jewish ghettos were already empty. In that case, what happened to the Jews from Poland?

BUEHLER: When these Jewish ghettos were emptied, I assumed they were resettled in the northeast of Europe. The chief of the RSHA had definitely told me at the conference in February 1942 that this was the intention.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: On the 21 February 1944 the front line ran through the Government General. How and where could the Jews have been transferred to the northeast?

BUEHLER: According to the conference this was to have taken place in 1942.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: The document is dated 1944, 21 February 1944.

I pass on to the next question. . . .

Just like every denier who is today trying to spin up resettlement, Buehler at Nuremberg had no answers for the simplest questions about his claim.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Evidence Against Resettlement

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:25 pm

The problem with crookes' thesis is that the Koherr report is clear in using the "Russian east" gambit. It was also physically impossible to settle 2 million in the Lublin district without it being brutally obvious.

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Re: Evidence Against Resettlement

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:16 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:The problem with crookes' thesis is that the Koherr report is clear in using the "Russian east" gambit. It was also physically impossible to settle 2 million in the Lublin district without it being brutally obvious.


The oddest thing to me is the real evidence that the Germans had to allocate more and more human resources to combat partisans on the Eastern front. I can read the divisional structures, accounts concerning skirmishes and see the bodies hanging on the side of railway lines.

Yet, magically, the deniers think that the Germans were simultaneously shipping millions of Jews to the East with no supervision or records of where they were sent. In essence, the idiot deniers are claiming, the Germans shipped millions of Jews East to go join the Partisans, which makes absolutely no sense at all.

:D

Partisan-02.jpg
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Re: Evidence Against Resettlement

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:06 am

Absolutely. And they can make no alternative because the Koherr report uses the wording "not in concentration camps or ghettos". That refutes the Huntian resettlement thesis which stipulates that millions of Jews were bounced through the KL/KZ system continuously.

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Re: Evidence Against Resettlement

Postby Xcalibur » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:09 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:The problem with crookes' thesis is that the Koherr report is clear in using the "Russian east" gambit. It was also physically impossible to settle 2 million in the Lublin district without it being brutally obvious.


The oddest thing to me is the real evidence that the Germans had to allocate more and more human resources to combat partisans on the Eastern front. I can read the divisional structures, accounts concerning skirmishes and see the bodies hanging on the side of railway lines.

Yet, magically, the deniers think that the Germans were simultaneously shipping millions of Jews to the East with no supervision or records of where they were sent. In essence, the idiot deniers are claiming, the Germans shipped millions of Jews East to go join the Partisans, which makes absolutely no sense at all.

:D

Partisan-02.jpg



Source for that claim about resettled Jews joined partisans, please. Which deniers have made that claim?

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Re: Evidence Against Resettlement

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:55 am

Xcalibur wrote:Source for that claim about resettled Jews joined partisans, please. Which deniers have made that claim?
Try reading posts first before commenting.

The deniers refuse to explain this point. That was my entire point. You seem a bit confused. How about you walk me thorough this.

If the denier's claim that the Jews were transported East for resettlement, and simultaneously deniers are unable to identify one division, brigade, squad, or even one soldier who administered a resettlement town in the East, then what was stopping these millions of Jews from joining the Partisans?

Now think carefully. Did the Germans confiscate their property and treat the Jews in a manner that would potentially make them not like Germans?

Now think carefully again. If the Germans had specific units, all identifiable fighting partisans, do you think they were simultaneously sending millions of unsupervised Jews who could all potentially join the Partisans?

Tell me exactly where you think the Jews went?

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Re: Evidence Against Resettlement

Postby Xcalibur » Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:02 am

So it's your erroneous interpretation of what deniers claim, eh, {!#%@}?

Now think carefully: Go {!#%@} yourself you stupid pompous {!#%@}.

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Re: Evidence Against Resettlement

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:09 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Tell me exactly where you think the Jews went?
Xcalibur wrote:So it's your erroneous interpretation of what deniers claim, eh, {!#%@}?


So, in essence, you can't even outline where you and the other deniers think the Jews went according to your own holocaust denial "theories"?

That's pretty funny and very entertaining.

:D

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Re: Evidence Against Resettlement

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:36 am

Jeff_36 wrote:The problem with crookes' thesis is that the Koherr report is clear in using the "Russian east" gambit. It was also physically impossible to settle 2 million in the Lublin district without it being brutally obvious.

As Jeff explained in his Korherr thread, the best Korherr could come up with, probably recognizing the untenability of the Reichskommisariats Ukraine and Ostland (cleared of almost all Jews except those kept for labor), was that the Jews were settled in the General-Gouvernement, Korherr specifically said he was told Lublin (if you want to see how silly that is, read Silberklang's new book on Lublin District and the elimination of the Jews from it). Further, we know, to take one example, from my Galicia thread ("Oh no! Not another ‘where did they go?’ thread!”) that Katzmann reported that Galician Jews by mid 1943 were either in camps (5% of them) or evacuated and resettled (95%). He didn't say where to. But not to the East - Ukraine lying to the East and the Red Army heading westward. We also know that about this time Himmler was directing that all Jews who remained in occupied areas be placed into labor camps under SS control by August 1943. And that Bormann issued a circular in late 1942 explaining what was being done to the Jews by saying that Jews were being removed from German space and were being locked up Theresienstadt or in large camps - or would be sent further to the vague East at some point.

But above we see that the Jews were removed from the General-Gouvernement, the ghettos were largely emptied, and Jews were sent to Russia - which by mid 1943 was increasingly - well look at the map on the Galicia thread and realize that there was a war on and nowhere east for people to be shoved to. So, the Jews were not in the G-G or the area called Galicia according to many sources, here including Buehler and Katzmann; the Ostland and Ukraine had been made basically Jew free and were now threatened by the Red Army; and German documents say that the remaining Jews (5% ish) were in camps in German occupied areas.

To Jeff's question - where did the vast majority of the Jews go - according to the Nazis?
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Evidence Against Resettlement

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:37 am

The Twilight zone, where the bullet hits the bone. (or the Petrol exhaust).

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Re: Evidence Against Resettlement

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:35 pm

I’ve got some evidence FOR resettlement. As we know, before the Final Solution was decided as an extermination plan for European Jewry, there were in 1939-1940 different plans mooted for a so-called territorial solution to the Jewish question, involving actual resettlement of the Jews. One of these plans - called the Nisko reservation or Lublin reservation - was partially implemented. I’ve not researched this effort in depth - but it is covered in all the standard surveys of the period (Browning, Hilberg, Longerich as well as books on the German occupation of Poland, like the recent books by Silberklang, Rutherford, Winstone). Here are some highlights, admittedly tossed together. Let's focus on just the Nisko-Zarzecze resettlement operation in fall 1939, involving only about 5,000 Jews, but consider some points on other related aspects of deportations of Jews to Lublin district in fall 1939 and 1940:

Planning: “10 September 1939, Eichmann and Dr. Franz Stahlecker (commander of the Security Police in Prague), friends since their Vienna days, talked over their mid-morning beer about the swift advance of the German troops in Poland and the future policies vis-a-vis the Jews. They recalled the Madagascar plan and thought it might be profitable to try it out in Poland. An autonomous Jewish territory ought to be established there, especially since, they assumed, large areas of eastern Poland would be depopulated because of the heavy fighting.14 Stahlecker presented the plan they had both hatched to Heydrich on 12 September1939.” (Moser, for Wiesenthal Center); Gestapo informed local Judentate (e.g., Czestochowa) of eventual plan to clear non-Jews from reservation area so it could receive large numbers of Jews (September 1939); also in September Heyrich informed Einsatzgruppen chiefs of the plan

Location: Zarzecze (additional later Jews shoved into provincial towns near cities of Nisko and Lublin; region of ~800-1000 sq km between San and Vistula rivers); Nisko resettlement proper involved town of Zarzecze in fall 1939; some deportees chased across demarcation line into Soviet held areas

Transit reception: Zarzecze, a village near Nisko on the San River, established as the transit camp in the Lublin region to receive deportees and then send them into provincial towns in the region; area ceded by Soviets as part of secret codicils following Molotov-RIbbentrop Pact (28 September 1939) and following (definition of borders, population exchanges)

Living arrangements: first arrivals built barracks at Zarzecze as quarters; during this period, other Jews were sent to “camps of the Burggraben project, intended to solidify the Nazi-Soviet demarcation line, and the Lublin-Lipowa camp supplying the local SS units.” (Wikipedia); Bełzec and Lipowa forced labor camps; those hounded into Soviet area interned in NKVD camps

Numbers involved: about 5,000 to Nisko area proper in October 1939 (generally, < 100,000 through early 1940 to provincial towns and camps in the area); plan to move 550,000 Jews from eastern provinces along with Congress Poles reduced during fall 1939 due to logistical complications of population reengineering - the Germans decided to halt further transports to Nisko-Zarzecze in late October 1939; report of Heydrich 30 January 1940 that overall, including the Zarzecze resettlement, 78,000 Jews had been deported to Nisko-Lublin; by April 1940 total of 95,000 had been resettled in the area

Date: concepts broached summer 1939; first transport to Nisko-Lublin area 18 October 1939 (901Jews from the Protectorate, mainly skilled workers, adult males - see below); deportations suspended mid-October 1939 to focus efforts on resettlement of ethnic Germans (during following months transports to the area were made involving more Jews, as described above)

Authority in charge of deportations and reservation: Central Office for Jewish Emigration for the Reich, headed by Eichmann; RSHA was formed in September 1939 and Eichmann’s office brought into the RSHA in December 1939; establishment of Central Office for Jewish Resettlement in Protectorate as Sonderreferat of the RSHA (Rolf Gunther, Theodor Dannecker, Alois Brunner, Anton Brunner, Franz Novak); all under Gestapo (Müller) oversight

Jewish oversight and governance: Jewish leaders brought to Mahrisch-Ostrau (Dr. Benjamin Murmelstein, Berthold Storfer, Dr. Mauricy Grun, Julius Boschan, Richard Friedmann, Jakob Edelstein) to administer deportations and oversee the Jewish end of the operation

Affected Jews: Jews from East Upper Silesia (Katowice), Mährisch-Ostrau in Protectorate, Vienna (Lowenherz, head of Jewish community, told to include poor Jews only) in 1939; Pomeranian Jews in early 1940; Jews being transported registered and property inventoried during fall 1939; deportation lists published by Eichmann’s office with names and addresses of Jews affected; selections of who should go made by local Jewish leaders

Secrecy: element of surprise maintained at outset to make deportation easier but plan communicated to Jewish communities in affected cities as offering an area of Jewish self-rule and freedom to build new lives in Lublin District

“Aufbau, the German-Jewish refugee newspaper in New York, reported on 15 October 1939 that a Jewish settlement was being established in Poland, where all Viennese Jews were to be sent.97 The Danish paper Politiken saw a connection between the establishment of the General Government and a special Jewish state.98 And UPI reported from Berlin that ‘the deportation of 2,000 Viennese Jews to a “Jewish State” in the interior of Poland also caused apprehension among the Jews of Berlin.’99 However, UPI reported the deportation of Jewish men from Mahrisch-Ostrau and Kattowitz only in the beginning of November: ‘They were taken to the reservation at the San river.’100
The Jews of Warsaw learned about the deportation of the Viennese Jews from a BBC broadcast. On 25 October 1939, Chaim A. Kaplan wrote in his Warsaw ghetto diary: ‘Yesterday we heard on Radio London that the Jews of Vienna were ordered to be ready to leave their home town and be resettled in the district of Lublin in Poland.’101
German Jews knew little about the deportation of the Jews from Vienna and Mahrisch-Ostrau There was certainly no direct communication between the Jewish community in Vienna and the Reich Association of German Jews (Reichsvereinigung) in Berlin. Eichmann had prohibited any direct contact between them. Whatever the German Jews knew came from private letters that Viennese Jews wrote to their friends and relatives in Germany, as well as from snide remarks made by SS-men and from rumors that were circulating. Jochen Klepper, a Lutheran theologian married to a Jew and living in Berlin, noted in his diary on 7 November 1939: “’Jewish craftsmen who had been deprived of their livelihood in Germany have been offered construction work in Poland. Many Viennese Jews are already there.’102 On the 12th he noted that he had heard from an acquaintance that the Jews were doing ‘forced-labor and construction work in the region of Lublin.’103 On the 22nd, Klepper wrote: ‘The deportation of German Jews to Poland is being repeatedly rumored,’104 and on the 28th he admitted: ‘Every month one dreads the Government's Poland project.’105
Oswald Garrison Villard published the most pertinent article about the Jewish reservation in The Nation at the end of 1939. During the four weeks he stayed in Germany, he was able to ‘learn only very little about the Jewish reservation, although heartbreaking deportations from Austria and Moravia were carried out.’ He thought Hitler was obsessed by the idea of resettling minorities. First he had brought the South Tyrolians home to Germany. ‘His next step was the recall of the Baltic Germans.’ And now he has decided to settle the Jews at Nisko on the San river. ‘1,950,000 people are being crammed into an area of 80 x 100 km, without agricultural tools and machines; moreover, they are not permitted to barter with neighbors. One cannot imagine they will survive until the first harvest without tools and animals to work the land ….’”106” (Moser)

“The reservation was not kept secret; the local population was aware and the international press was reporting.[19] Reports in the Luxembourgian paper Luxemburger Wort of 12 November and the British paper The Times of 16 December 1939 both gave a total of 45,000 Jews deported to the reservation so far.[19] Also in December, the American paper The Spectator reported the reservation was enclosed by barbed wire on an area of fifty by sixty miles near Nisko and Lublin, and prepared for an intake of 1,945,000 Jews.[19]
An excerpt from a Luxemburger Wort report of November 1939 reads:
‘Sometimes trains drive on for forty kilometres beyond Lublin and halt in the open country, where the Jews alight with their luggage and have to find themselves primitive accommodation in the surrounding villages.’[20]” (Wikipedia)

“on 18 September, the Belgrade newspaper Vreme reported that Germany intended to establish an autonomous Jewish territory in Poland. Jews from the Reich, from Bohemia and Moravia as well as from Vienna, were to be settled there.” (Moser); following Hitler speech of 6 October 1939 on demographic reordering of Poland and East, “Now even the Western press reported: ‘A Jewish reservation is to be established in Poland.[‘]” (Moser)

“The Viennese Jews were also agitated. An SD report of 21 October stated: ‘The most incredible rumors are circulating among them. The rest of the population has had only minimal information about it and, on the whole, knows nothing about this operation.’94 A report five days later stated ‘that the mood among Viennese Jews is no longer as agitated as at the beginning" of the operation. ‘A group of Jewish war veterans who ... volunteered for resettlement ... contributed to this change of mood. The Jewish proletarians frequently complain that those Jews who receive an annuity or pension are allowed to stay.95” (Moser)

Preparations: Einsatzgruppe I securing of area, Dannecker survey mission, Müller logistical discussions with Gauleiter Wagner in Katowice; Gauleiter Burckel in Vienna informed along with Jewish council there; Jewish community of Mahrisch-Ostrau told to draw up plans for first barracks; Eichmann traveled to Kaotwice in October 1939 to brief leaders there; German officials told that first 4 transports were to be experimental (Eichmann: "to some extent engaged as an advance unit in the territory”) and experience evaluated for further, larger numbers, with women and children included, after completion of initial deportations: Eichmann and Stahlecker trip in October 1939 (accompanied by Soviet commissar) to Nisko on San River - located swampy, isolated area for first deportees to be put (identified problem that area was heavily populated and full plan would require large population swaps)

Transport: use of 2nd class and 3rd class passenger cars and freight cars (luggage and equipment for settling in carried); Jewish leaders made responsible for successful, orderly transport including loading of trains; on departure of first train from Mahrisch-Ostrau, “’Czech and Jewish women loudly proclaimed their sympathy,’ on the roads leading to the station” (Moser); trains guarded by Germans

Conditions in reservation: food for initial deportees confiscated from Jewish shops; nevertheless, throughout the reservation’s existence - hunger, high mortality, typhus epidemic, primitive to no housing, few if any income opportunities, assistance from local Jews ineffective; starting early 1940 some of the resettled Jews forced into labor at Lipoma Street No. 7 camp (camp maintained after dissolution of reservation; run by Globocnik); other resettled Jews were “enlisted” in the fortifications project along German-Soviet demarcation line (in small camps run by Globocnik notably Bełzec labor camp, inmates lacked clothing, rampant disease, high mortality - these camps were temporarily abandoned as militarily worthless in late 1940)

Local resettlement authority: Judenrat in Lublin; transports financed by funds from “sending” Jewish communities

Fate of resettlement: plan abandoned in April 1940 and reservation dissolved; Jews from abandoned reservation largely restricted to provincial towns in Lublin District; a small number of the internees returned to cities of origin and deported again in Final Solution; a few 100s of deportees sent to Sosnowiec and from there to Bratislava

Other artifacts: Seyss-Inquart report on habitability of Nisko region and concept of Jewish reservation; Frank statement to local administrators to prepare for influx; appointment of Globocnik as day-to-day lead with Dr Hofbauer as day-to-day lead; Göring order to put Nisko plan on the shelve of 23 March 1940; Krüger April 1940 announcement of final closure of reservation; records of IKG (Jewish community) in Vienna on Jews deported from there to Nikso area in October 1940; postcards from deportees, e.g., one dated 10 April 1940, from a deportee at Pisanica to family in Vienna; “on 28 September, Rosenberg noted in his diary that Hitler had told him he wanted "to resettle all of Jewry (also from the Reich) between the Vistula and the Bug” (Moser); “in occupied Poland, however, rumors soon spread about the settlement of Jews in a reservation, noted Shmuel Zygelboirn in his diaries” (Moser)

Quick notes on the formal Nisko-Zarzecze operation, involving 5,000 or so Jews . . .

FSS, there is more evidence for Madagascar (Rademacher’s plan, Eichmann’s plan, postwar testimonies) than there is for resettling Jews in the great East during 1941-1943.

The trouble for deniers is that all this evidence is for resettlement prior to the Final Solution - not for the Final Solution, after fall 1941.

Ok, now fall 1941-1943, 3+ million Jews, where did they go, how was this carried out, and what are the key pieces of evidence - David’s turn . . .
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Evidence Against Resettlement

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:31 am

The list below might be worth expanding on. I posted it at ISF to lay out what proof of the supposed Nazi resettlement of the Jews would have to look like. As noted it relies on the post just above this one, material on the Caucasus, and the well-known Soviet deportations of 1941. The basic point is that to write about a Nazi resettlement of the Jews requires the advocate of this proposition to write a proper history of it, as we have proper histories of Nisko, etc.

---------

To be a little less cryptic - sorry - a single witness is not enough, to answer questions about supposed relocation of the Jews, just as a single witness is not enough for robust answers to any of the questions we raise here - here is what I had in mind in mentioning the range of evidence which should exist were a resettlement of the Jews carried out by the Nazis during 1942-1944.

Looking at actual, historical population relocations - ones that occurred during WWII, during the period we are interested in - we have planning and execution documents; business and bureaucracy transaction records; testimonies from authorities, those moved and observers; population studies; inventories; news reports; health reports; registration and census counts; etc. that enable us to answer basic questions about most of the following aspects of such operations:

* Planning and participants, feasibility studies
* Communication plan and distribution, briefings, bureaucratic participation
* Identification of groups to be moved
* Where relocated groups were to be moved from, numbers involved
* Deliberations, preparations relative to relocation places/sites, transactions as to land etc
* Reception preparations and processes including housing and infrastructure
* Disposition of property of relocated people, luggage permitted/taken with them
* Authorities in charge of relocation, transports, and reception
* What happened at the deportation locations
* Actual dates of relocation operations, arrival dates
* Conditions of journey
* Routes of transports and mode/means of transportation; arrangement for transport
* Registration of newcomers, census data, demographic composition, language issues, etc
* Authorities in charge of relocation site
* Conditions in new location on arrival
* Living arrangements – rentals, purchases, construction, furnishing
* Food and other basic supplies – on arrival, longer term
* Coordination with local authorities, implication for local government (citizenship etc)
* Economic factors – skills of relocated population, jobs and income in new home, etc
* Communication (postal etc) of relocated population to relatives, friends, etc
* News stories and public notice of relocation
* Problem solving and management of relocation process by authorities in charge
* Reactions of local authorities/agencies and population to newcomers
* Long term description of new settlements – where these people ended up in the long run

Any account of the supposed resettlement of the Jews proposed by deniers will need to be at least as comprehensive and will need to cite a range of evidence.

(The above list was drawn from reading I've done about the Nisko reservation action carried out by Nazi authorities in 1939-1940; the large-scale Soviet deportations of "disloyal" population groups to Siberia during 1941 prior to Barbarossa; and movement of Soviet citizens - mostly Jews - into the Caucasus from Ukraine and the Crimea but also from as far away as Moscow.)
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Evidence Against Resettlement

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:39 pm

I've never understood this idea that the Jews were "resettled in the East."

For one, the timetable doesn't work. Deportations to the Reinhard Camps didn't start until the Spring and Summer of 1942. Any resettlement camps needed to be built before this period yet there is no evidence of this occurring. The Germans fought to restore their lines after the defeat before Moscow, there was no time time to prepare reception areas and camps while doing this. Now, if you are someone like Monstrous you can argue that the Germans simply released the Jews into the wild without clothes, food or shelter. This is ridiculous.

Second, there was not space for all those Jews to go. The Soviets succeeded in their deportations because they had places to send those people. The Germans didn't. Also, the Soviets always sent the deportees east, essentially away from the front lines. The Germans could only send their Jews towards the lines, creating a security risk for their armies. Plus, why go to the trouble of sticking Polish and Soviet Jews in ghettos if you are going to release millions of them to wander around loose in a war zone?

This contradiction was what made me question this when I first looked into it. It also doesn't address what happened once the "East" was no longer an option.

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Re: Evidence Against Resettlement

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:01 pm

Or anywhere.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Evidence Against Resettlement

Postby Balsamo » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:53 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I've never understood this idea that the Jews were "resettled in the East."

For one, the timetable doesn't work. Deportations to the Reinhard Camps didn't start until the Spring and Summer of 1942. Any resettlement camps needed to be built before this period yet there is no evidence of this occurring. The Germans fought to restore their lines after the defeat before Moscow, there was no time time to prepare reception areas and camps while doing this. Now, if you are someone like Monstrous you can argue that the Germans simply released the Jews into the wild without clothes, food or shelter. This is ridiculous.

Second, there was not space for all those Jews to go. The Soviets succeeded in their deportations because they had places to send those people. The Germans didn't. Also, the Soviets always sent the deportees east, essentially away from the front lines. The Germans could only send their Jews towards the lines, creating a security risk for their armies. Plus, why go to the trouble of sticking Polish and Soviet Jews in ghettos if you are going to release millions of them to wander around loose in a war zone?

This contradiction was what made me question this when I first looked into it. It also doesn't address what happened once the "East" was no longer an option.


It is ridiculous, but so it was.
The whole scheme was a greater fool game, a form of what we call in french "Vases communicant", you know the chemist thing which a liquid does from one jar to the others, i think you would call that "push down pop-up effect".
In Western Europe, starting with Germany, people were "told" that the Jews would be resettled "east", that is everywhere eastward from the German border, mainly newly conquered Poland. Of course, those people did not know or did not care that there were already millions of Jews in Poland, and even more eastward, in the Baltic and Russia.

So while on can accept that people could convince themselves that the Jews leaving Paris, Brussels or even Berlin were truly resettled in the East - and at some point it was kind of true - it was more difficult to convince people in Poland that Jews would be resettled eastward, in the Baltic, the Ukraine or Russia. But of course, it becomes a clear non sense when it comes to Jews of the Baltic/Russia, so there, as far as i know, the Nazis did not even try to convince anyone.
They started to kill Jews in the more eastern part, then continued from East to west.

But then, do not forget that the Wehrmacht was still as far as Stalingrad by early 1943, so up to later in 1944, there was still a plenty of imaginary "Easts" available, depending on where you lived. The more westward you lived, the more you could believe in the fantasy.

In another thread, i have shown proof that, by 1943, French Jews were still convinced that they were deported to be resettled in Poland, while Jews from Warsaw had lost these kind of illusionnary hopes, while Jews from the Baltic States or Russia never had a chance to ask themselves the question. Those were doomed from the start.

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Re: Evidence Against Resettlement

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:34 am

For me, the ad-hoc explanation by Karl Wolff at his trial that he assumed that the Jews would be resettled into "a large reserve in the Lublin District" kills the Russian deportation theory dead. No more needs to be said on that front once you mention that.

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Re: Evidence Against Resettlement

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:52 am

Sorry, assuming these latest posts are replies to mine (maybe they aren't?), I probably wasn't clear, but my point here is rather different from the recent posts (and Wolff's testimony is at odds with the testimony of others, like Bühler, so no single data point is the be all and end all . . . and the clashing cacophony of chimerical excuses is probably one of the most telling problems with their claims - that is, they couldn't get their stories straight).

Of course, the proposition is loony tunes, as many denier propositions are. I wasn't trying to show illogic or poor thinking or to prove the claims wrong again. But what I meant to get at is that - to make a historical charge like this - one needs to do proper historical research, using accepted research methodologies, and then to create a proper historical account or narrative, explaining the evidence found in the research and laying out what happened, how, and why. The aim here was to say what a denier wishing to advance this claim would need to do - and which none have even tried doing.

That's what I wanted to show in listing all the typical things historians have done in other resettlement cases - and that deniers don't do for their claims of a Jewish resettlement or transit or whatever: deniers have their claims, a large number of baseless assumptions, and some (mostly random) negatory criticisms - but they do not review the range of evidence and create a historical explanation for it in any meaningful sense. That is, they don't tell you what happened and how it came about.

Historians explain such developments as resettlements and population movement through historical narratives based on robust research and the relevant evidence - and they do so in a rich, deep way, as the list I started shows and as one can read in the cases I mentioned. The resettlement thesis is just one of many cases where deniers' efforts fall far short of the research and explanation standards that any historical study must meet.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Evidence Against Resettlement

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:04 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Sorry, assuming these latest posts are replies to mine (maybe they aren't?)


Mine wasn't. I saw Balsamo's post, and figured that I needed to pull my weight. ;)

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Re: Evidence Against Resettlement

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:18 am

LOL (I truly wasn't sure, it seemed weird that posts started being made back in this long-dormant thread after mine . . . but they seemed different, so . . . sorry for the long-winded explanation!)
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Evidence Against Resettlement

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:26 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Sorry, assuming these latest posts are replies to mine (maybe they aren't?), I probably wasn't clear, but my point here is rather different from the recent posts (and Wolff's testimony is at odds with the testimony of others, like Bühler, so no single data point is the be all and end all . . . and the clashing cacophony of chimerical excuses is probably one of the most telling problems with their claims - that is, they couldn't get their stories straight).

Of course, the proposition is loony tunes, as many denier propositions are. I wasn't trying to show illogic or poor thinking or to prove the claims wrong again. But what I meant to get at is that - to make a historical charge like this - one needs to do proper historical research, using accepted research methodologies, and then to create a proper historical account or narrative, explaining the evidence found in the research and laying out what happened, how, and why. The aim here was to say what a denier wishing to advance this claim would need to do - and which none have even tried doing.

That's what I wanted to show in listing all the typical things historians have done in other resettlement cases - and that deniers don't do for their claims of a Jewish resettlement or transit or whatever: deniers have their claims, a large number of baseless assumptions, and some (mostly random) negatory criticisms - but they do not review the range of evidence and create a historical explanation for it in any meaningful sense. That is, they don't tell you what happened and how it came about.

Historians explain such developments as resettlements and population movement through historical narratives based on robust research and the relevant evidence - and they do so in a rich, deep way, as the list I started shows and as one can read in the cases I mentioned. The resettlement thesis is just one of many cases where deniers' efforts fall far short of the research and explanation standards that any historical study must meet.


The deniers I see talk about "resettlement" seem to start with "the Holocaust didn't happen" and then randomly select things that agree with this without looking at the whole.

One of the things that struck me about "resettlement" was that deniers approach this like it all happened in a vacuum, that there was all the time in the world to do this. There is no consideration of what was actually occurring in the USSR. At the time of this alleged "resettlement" action the Germans were involved in a major military offensive (Operation Blau) that eventually stalled out at Stalingrad. In places like Belarus there were major partisan actions and the area around Leningrad remained an active war zone. The Germans were busy sucking labor, raw materials and food out of these areas and using it to feed their armies. Security was always a problem, the Germans never pacified the occupied areas of the USSR like they did Poland.

Into all of this deniers want to plop down millions of Polish and other foreign Jews, forgetting that the Germans continued their policy of ghettoizing local Soviet Jews. There is no evidence that large numbers of foreign Jews were put in these ghettos and these ghettos were emptied and destroyed in their turn. Also, the Germans "deported" the wrong types of Jews, they kept the healthy ones to work and sent the sick, children, women and the elderly into this wilderness.

There is no evidence of large scale camps built and maintained for these Jews who would need shelter, food and guards. There are no witnesses, no plans, no personnel detailed to these alleged "camps," nothing to indicate this ever happened. We should have camp commanders, guards, survivors, references to them in German documents, etc. All the things that Stat Mech mentions above should be there to be found. Instead, what we have are scattered reports of a thousand Jews sent here or there, that wound up in certain ghettos or camps. I accept that some foreign Jews wound up in the USSR, it's certainly within the realm of possibility. The issue is it doesn't account for the vast majority.

Monstrous, being the moron he is, once posited that these Jews were sent haphazardly into the USSR, set free to wander about the countryside. Well, if so, the Germans sent these people without food, clothes, money, or anything else they might need. Monstrous also forgot that Germans set up ghettos and camps for Jews in order to separate them from the populace and to keep them out of mischief. Setting free a couple of million Jews behind the front lines beggars belief, the Germans thought Jews were black marketeers and the backers of partisans, the last thing they would want is all these Jews running free.

Also, the German military would fight this tooth and claw, the last thing any military wants is civilians wandering around behind them. Refugees draw on resources the military needs and are also a security risk.

So, none of it makes any sense. I always felt this "resettlement" theory one of the weakest links for any denier.

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Re: Evidence Against Resettlement

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:45 pm

Agreed, I am still focused on something different: using resettlement, since it keeps coming up at ISF (and elsewhere), to illustrate the abject failure of HD as history. Now, the reason that deniers can't write a proper history is exactly as you say: they have random, negatory, unsupported, ahistorical beliefs and biases.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Evidence Against Resettlement

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:54 pm

This is someone new and entertaining:
https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2017/09/13/nazis-defied-laws-of-nature-to-gas-millions-vanish-the-bodies-true/comment-page-1/#comment-195



I commented but now I'm on restriction.... :lol:

This person made me think of the whole "resettlement" issue.

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Re: Evidence Against Resettlement

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:02 pm

Hey, wearswar got a whole 305 Jews transited "through" Treblinka to Majdanek (a very nice resettlement spot for Jews during 1943). Now he needs to deal with, oh, the remaining approximately 790,000. {!#%@}, I can find more transited, so to speak, than wearswar can - about 8x as many!
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817


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