refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:46 pm

Even without looking I doubt that a neofascist like Feiglin would head anything but a radical party.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:57 pm

For someone who deals with research about the horrors of fascism, it seems that you don't know what fascism exactly is...
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:42 pm

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:Yesh Atid and Kulanu are both socialist, especially the letter.


Wasn't Khalon a former Likud cabinet minister? Hardly a socialist.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:46 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:Yesh Atid and Kulanu are both socialist, especially the letter.


Wasn't Khalon a former Likud cabinet minister? Hardly a socialist.


There's also a "gay cell' in the Likud, hardly makes them a pro-gay party. Kahlon left the Likud and started his own thing partly because he felt it didn't fit with his ideals anymore. And even when he was a full member of the Likud he managed to sneak in some slightly socialist laws under the rest of the goverment's nose (most notably something that has to do with cellphones. I don't know the full details, I think I was 9 years old at the time).
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:05 pm

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:For someone who deals with research about the horrors of fascism, it seems that you don't know what fascism exactly is...

I do know what fascism exactly is. Palingenetic ultranationalism. Feiglin is a neofascist.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:12 pm

I don't think fascism is palingenetic ultranationalism. Not even just regular old nationalism. What is ultranationalism above and beyond simple nationalism?
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:51 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:For someone who deals with research about the horrors of fascism, it seems that you don't know what fascism exactly is...

I do know what fascism exactly is. Palingenetic ultranationalism. Feiglin is a neofascist.


Ummm... nope. Fascism is viewing the state as a holy value that is more important than anything else. You can defeinately be a nationalist* without being a fascist. Zehut is a party that seeks to eliminate most of the state regulations that exist in Israel. A fascist would have wanted MORE regulations and MORE power to the state. You might not like libertarianism, but it's still not Fascism.

* Also, there's a difference between NATIONALISM amd ULTRANATIONALISM. The simpelest example is this - Bismark was a nationalist, while Hitler was an ultranationalist. I'm not denying that Feiglin is a Jewish nationalist. So am I. But he is NOT, I repeat, NOT AN ULTRANATIONALIST.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:05 pm

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:For someone who deals with research about the horrors of fascism, it seems that you don't know what fascism exactly is...

I do know what fascism exactly is. Palingenetic ultranationalism. Feiglin is a neofascist.


Ummm... nope.

Yep.

Fascism is viewing the state as a holy value that is more important than anything else.


Nope.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:06 pm

Maybe I'm wrong on this, but from my discussions with a number of Israelis and Jews friends, I have the impression that the word 'nationalism/nationalists' is not always the same between all for example European state-nations and the Israelis/Jews. For all other nations, having a state of your own is something that goes without saying it, something self-evident, and no one will ever question you 'why do you want to have your own state?'.

But with the Jews it was always a different story. It was never (and still isn't) something too simple and too natural. It was a right which Jews try hard to get, and always questionable and always (and still) open for vilifying and for 'delegitimization', or even denying it along with the very right to exist or the right of the Jewish people to live securely in a homeland.

I don't know, this is my perception. 'Nationalism' means something a little different in Israel comparing to the old European nation-states.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:23 pm

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:Maybe I'm wrong on this, but from my discussions with a number of Israelis and Jews friends, I have the impression that the word 'nationalism/nationalists' is not always the same between all for example European state-nations and the Israelis/Jews. For all other nations, having a state of your own is something that goes without saying it, something self-evident, and no one will ever question you 'why do you want to have your own state?'.

But with the Jews it was always a different story. It was never (and still isn't) something too simple and too natural. It was a right which Jews try hard to get, and always questionable and always (and still) open for vilifying and for 'delegitimization', or even denying it along with the very right to exist or the right of the Jewish people to live securely in a homeland.

I don't know, this is my perception. 'Nationalism' means something a little different in Israel comparing to the old European nation-states.



That's a good observation.

It's been my experience that if you are critical of Israel then this somehow equates to you questioning Israel's right to exist.
My thing is I'm critical of my own country and others, including Israel. It has nothing to do with Israel's right to exist, it means I'm critical of certain policies that Israel pursues. I believe in a two-state solution, I think Israel needs to stop building settlements on the West Bank and I want to see the hardliners get a grip. That doesn't make me antisemitic or oppose Israel's right to exist.

Of course I'm sure that is very confusing to the deniers I meet. I've said that to some of them and it leaves them baffled, how can I bite the hand that feeds me????
:lol:

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:55 pm

Zehut's platform is mostly libertarian, however it has one item (total Israeli sovereignty over the west bank) that reeks of hyper-nationalist insanity. It's leader has expressed admiration for Mier Khane and has a history of racially charged comments.

So yes, neofascist/libertarian hybrid party. Wow. Only in the Middle East......

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:06 pm

1. Feiglin has actually publiclly denounced many of hia past comments on this subject.
2. Kahana wanted to murder all non-Jews in the land of Israel. Feiglin does not.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:10 pm

And as for their position on the west bank - Feiglin always refers to it as " putting an end to the occupation and millitary regime". His plan includes giving FULl CITIZENSHIP and VOTING rights to every local Arab who would be willing to get those. Those who don't - will be given huge amounts of money and encouredge to leave the state. He does not plan to kill any of them. He does not believe that Jews are superior beings.
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:59 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:For someone who deals with research about the horrors of fascism, it seems that you don't know what fascism exactly is...

I do know what fascism exactly is. Palingenetic ultranationalism. Feiglin is a neofascist.


Ummm... nope.

Yep.

Fascism is viewing the state as a holy value that is more important than anything else.


Nope.

have to agree with Sergey on both points: on the 2md one, not only is it not characteristic of fascist movements I've read about, making the state of supreme importance broadens the definition so that it's almost useless.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:25 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:Maybe I'm wrong on this, but from my discussions with a number of Israelis and Jews friends, I have the impression that the word 'nationalism/nationalists' is not always the same between all for example European state-nations and the Israelis/Jews. For all other nations, having a state of your own is something that goes without saying it, something self-evident, and no one will ever question you 'why do you want to have your own state?'.

But with the Jews it was always a different story. It was never (and still isn't) something too simple and too natural. It was a right which Jews try hard to get, and always questionable and always (and still) open for vilifying and for 'delegitimization', or even denying it along with the very right to exist or the right of the Jewish people to live securely in a homeland.

I don't know, this is my perception. 'Nationalism' means something a little different in Israel comparing to the old European nation-states.



That's a good observation.

It's been my experience that if you are critical of Israel then this somehow equates to you questioning Israel's right to exist.
My thing is I'm critical of my own country and others, including Israel. It has nothing to do with Israel's right to exist, it means I'm critical of certain policies that Israel pursues. I believe in a two-state solution, I think Israel needs to stop building settlements on the West Bank and I want to see the hardliners get a grip. That doesn't make me antisemitic or oppose Israel's right to exist.

Of course I'm sure that is very confusing to the deniers I meet. I've said that to some of them and it leaves them baffled, how can I bite the hand that feeds me????
:lol:



This is one of the most difficult questions I ever met. How to be critical to Israel without crossing the line to be antisemitic or giving the impression that you question Israel's right to exist. And not so many people are successful when the deal with it -I mean both ways, it's a double-edged knife that cuts too deep.
Many Israel's supporters use the accusation too easy and too often, and many Israel's denouncers don't understand that they do cross the line easily. It's a very hard task to walk on this edge.

I'm a two state solution fun, also.
As David Hirsh wrote:
- The struggles against Islamophobia, antisemitism and anti-Arab racism, the struggle against the occupation of the West Bank and the struggle against the project to smash the State of Israel -these are all potentially democratic struggles, and, although they are distinct, they can be understood in a cosmopolitan way as belonging to the same family.

That is pro-Palestinian, pro-Israeli, pro-peace, but I have to say, it's time we must go ahead on solutions, not sides.
We should not stop supporting Palestinian statehood. Two-states for two peoples is the only solution to the conflict. But, do the BDSers and other hardliners 'antizionists' want this? A Palestinian state next to the Jewish state?
Or 'from the river to the sea' means a Palestinian state INSTEAD of the Jewish state and in the place of it?
Because, if this is the case (and for most of these people IS), you can count me out.

But we should radically rethink the currently fashionable demonizing and hateful ‘anti-Zionism’. If we refuse the right to national self-determination of just one people, the Jewish people, and if we are committed to boycotting just one state in the whole wide world, the little Jewish one, then this singling-out is antisemitic in consequence, whatever the subjective feelings or motivations of individual boycotters. It has no place on our society.

We have to support in both sides the rational ones and those who are willing to engage in serious conversations.

But we should also have always this in mind:
Even-handedness demands that we give both sides an equal hearing. OK, fair enough.

But in order to understand this problem, one must understand a critical cultural issue: civil societies thrive on self-criticism, and authoritarian ones thrive on scape-goating and demonizing. To take the 'narratives' from both sides as equally legitimate (or worse, to trust the demonic narrative primarily from the authoritarian side because they look like the weak and can mock people like this story with the convicted people's salaries), is to make critical category errors. In the battle between a totalitarian society and a democracy, 'even-handed' approaches will always favor the totalitarian state. Rather than appreciate the value and difficulty of self-criticism, reward it, and encourage it on the other side, it punishes the self-critical and rewards the demonizers.

Here's some interesting readings (don't mean I agree with everything, but they make useful points, all of them)

- Why Anti-Zionists Who Say They Aren’t Anti-Semitic Usually Are - The Forward, 29/09/2016
http://forward.com/scribe/351099/why-an ... 1-headline

- How to Criticize Israel Without Being Anti-Semitic (If you’ve spent any time discussing or reading about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I guarantee you’ve heard some variation of this statement: OMG, Jews think any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic!)
http://this-is-not-jewish.tumblr.com/po ... ti-semitic

- David Hirsh - Anti-Zionism and Antisemitism Cosmopolitan Reflections [Working Paper] [Yale + Institute for the Study of Global Antisemitism and Policy ISGAP 2007] - Yale Papers_Hirsh_Final.pdf
https://www.scribd.com/document/531151/ ... ti-Zionism

- David Hirsh - Anti-Zionism and Antisemitism Cosmopolitan Reflections In: Charles Asher Small (ed), The Yale Papers Antisemitism in comparative perspetive. New York: ISGAP, pp. 57-174. ISBN 9781515057796 [Book Section]
http://research.gold.ac.uk/14635/

- Nevet Basker, Dear Anti-Israel Activist, 23/09/2016
http://www.broaderview.org/Notes/dear-a ... l-activist

- Irwin Cotler, The Differences between Anti-Semitism and Criticism
http://wayback.archive.org/web/20100311 ... 3-22/6.asp
It is often difficult to specify the border between criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism.
Cotler has suggested some guidelines. He claims that critics of Israel become anti-Semites when:
They publicly call for the destruction of Israel and the Jewish people. This is the case with the covenants of Palestinian groups (the PLO and Hamas) and some militant Islamic legal rulings (fatawin), as well as the Iranian threat to annihilate Israel ("genocidal anti-Semitism").
They deny the Jewish people's right to self-determination, de-legitimize Israel as a state, and attribute to Israel all the world's evil ("political anti-Semitism").
They Nazify Israel ("ideological anti-Semitism").
Israel is characterized as the perfidious enemy of Islam ("theological anti-Semitism").
Israel is attributed a mix of evil qualities by salon intellectuals and Western elites ("cultural anti-Semitism").
They call for restrictions against those trading with Israel ("economic anti-Semitism").
They deny the Holocaust.
They support racist terrorism against Israel.
They single out Israel for discriminatory treatment in the international arena through denial of equality before the law.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:41 pm

Thank you, Kleon.

To be honest this is a weak area, I want to learn more about it and I appreciate you posting links.
I do think the above is key, I myself never question the right of Israel to exist and I sure as hell don't question the Holocaust. I also don't demonize Israel or its people, there is good and bad in everyone and everything.

What aggravates me when dealing with Holocaust deniers is the crocodile tears shed on behalf of the Palestinian people. Most of the deniers I've been in contact with are also white nationalists, they could care less about Muslims half way across the world from them.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:49 pm

Ian Hazard and Werd seem to have concluded that Muslims are a race and an inferior race at that.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:54 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Thank you, Kleon.

To be honest this is a weak area, I want to learn more about it and I appreciate you posting links.
I do think the above is key, I myself never question the right of Israel to exist and I sure as hell don't question the Holocaust. I also don't demonize Israel or its people, there is good and bad in everyone and everything.

What aggravates me when dealing with Holocaust deniers is the crocodile tears shed on behalf of the Palestinian people. Most of the deniers I've been in contact with are also white nationalists, they could care less about Muslims half way across the world from them.


Oh, yes, this is so funny!
In any other case, these Daily Stormers guys hate the Muslims and the Arabs all the way to another galaxy, from the bottom of their hearts and with every cell of their body. But in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, they love them so much and suffer with them so deeply.
Because -it's easy-, the hate for the Jews always come first and before any other hate.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Balsamo » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:32 am

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:For someone who deals with research about the horrors of fascism, it seems that you don't know what fascism exactly is...

I do know what fascism exactly is. Palingenetic ultranationalism. Feiglin is a neofascist.


Ummm... nope. Fascism is viewing the state as a holy value that is more important than anything else. You can defeinately be a nationalist* without being a fascist. Zehut is a party that seeks to eliminate most of the state regulations that exist in Israel. A fascist would have wanted MORE regulations and MORE power to the state. You might not like libertarianism, but it's still not Fascism.

* Also, there's a difference between NATIONALISM amd ULTRANATIONALISM. The simpelest example is this - Bismark was a nationalist, while Hitler was an ultranationalist. I'm not denying that Feiglin is a Jewish nationalist. So am I. But he is NOT, I repeat, NOT AN ULTRANATIONALIST.


Not really the State...Actually, i do not remember Hitler or Mussilini speaking about the State in their speeches.
It is more the "Volk" or the "community" as the whole that is the holy value. And because of the importance of the community as a whole, a regime like democracy is described as unfit as it involves too many individuals like but not limited to parliamentary representation, networks of labor unions, journalist, civil associations, etc... As in the clip shown above: all those individuals are described as costing people money (new modern way to say things i guess), but mostly useless and counter-productive as the PEOPLE (to be understood as the community) don't need it.

So indeed, in the Fascist view, the State is the only tool to act for the whole community, preferably through the smallest number of Rulers as possible - 1 being the best case scenario, but remember that fascist Italy was ruled by a Fascist Council that Mussolini thought was his own under the nominal power of the king.

Again, Fascism has nothing to do with regulations, quite the contrary, it tends to simplify it quite sharply, as there is no Parliament to vote new laws at each session.

I agree, you can be a nationalist without being a fascist. That is because even though you cannot have fascism without nationalism, you had nationalism without fascism.
But the clip still smells like neo-fascism, populism... You chose to focus on the abolition of regulations, i noticed the description of national representation as useless thief of people's money, making the democratic regime responsible for all the pains suffered by the people, and the famous formula "make it simple" (dictatorship is simple: "i decide, you obey"), promise of holy future (but who will decide who will get the public land?)...

As for the difference between Nationalism and utlra nationalism, it is usually based on its scope. But that is another subject.

Anyway, just to say that Sergey was right here.

As for the defense of them being socialist, well you probably know that the words "national" and "socilalist" can be combined. ;)

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Balsamo » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:47 am

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:Maybe I'm wrong on this, but from my discussions with a number of Israelis and Jews friends, I have the impression that the word 'nationalism/nationalists' is not always the same between all for example European state-nations and the Israelis/Jews. For all other nations, having a state of your own is something that goes without saying it, something self-evident, and no one will ever question you 'why do you want to have your own state?'.

But with the Jews it was always a different story. It was never (and still isn't) something too simple and too natural. It was a right which Jews try hard to get, and always questionable and always (and still) open for vilifying and for 'delegitimization', or even denying it along with the very right to exist or the right of the Jewish people to live securely in a homeland.

I don't know, this is my perception. 'Nationalism' means something a little different in Israel comparing to the old European nation-states.


I felt the same, it is quite a recurrent argument. But the problem is that it is based on false premises, and quite a ethnocentric perception of realities. Actually, there are many ethnic groups that are denied a country and a state...and not only the Palestinians ( but then in these views those are described as Arabs so they have multiple States to chose from)...But i live in Latin America, and there are millions of Indians who were given like "reserves" but no States. Even in Europe, some Ethnic groups (or defining themselves as such) have the same frustration like the Brittons in France, or Corsica. The Lombards in Italy, the Flemish in Belgium, The Inuits in Canada, the Roms (Gypsies) in Eastern Europe, and not even mentioning all the ethnic groups living in Russia.
So this premise is kind of a myth.

But the most important argument is the belief that only a Jewish State can ensure the security and the protection of a Jewish people, the argument being that had a Jewish State existed back then there would have been no Holocaust.
This is highly disputable of course...just ask the Poles...
Or more piratically, i doubt that a Jew living in NY is more exposed to danger than the one living in Jerusalem.

But then, i do understand the roots of those concerns, and they should not be ignored, even if they seem baseless.

PS: That being said, it might be a good ideas to move those last posts in another thread, as it is kind of unpleasant to find them in a topic dedicated to "Jewish Bolshevism", or is it only me?

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Balsamo » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:58 am

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:Maybe I'm wrong on this, but from my discussions with a number of Israelis and Jews friends, I have the impression that the word 'nationalism/nationalists' is not always the same between all for example European state-nations and the Israelis/Jews. For all other nations, having a state of your own is something that goes without saying it, something self-evident, and no one will ever question you 'why do you want to have your own state?'.

But with the Jews it was always a different story. It was never (and still isn't) something too simple and too natural. It was a right which Jews try hard to get, and always questionable and always (and still) open for vilifying and for 'delegitimization', or even denying it along with the very right to exist or the right of the Jewish people to live securely in a homeland.

I don't know, this is my perception. 'Nationalism' means something a little different in Israel comparing to the old European nation-states.



That's a good observation.

It's been my experience that if you are critical of Israel then this somehow equates to you questioning Israel's right to exist.
My thing is I'm critical of my own country and others, including Israel. It has nothing to do with Israel's right to exist, it means I'm critical of certain policies that Israel pursues. I believe in a two-state solution, I think Israel needs to stop building settlements on the West Bank and I want to see the hardliners get a grip. That doesn't make me antisemitic or oppose Israel's right to exist.

Of course I'm sure that is very confusing to the deniers I meet. I've said that to some of them and it leaves them baffled, how can I bite the hand that feeds me????
:lol:



This is one of the most difficult questions I ever met. How to be critical to Israel without crossing the line to be antisemitic or giving the impression that you question Israel's right to exist. And not so many people are successful when the deal with it -I mean both ways, it's a double-edged knife that cuts too deep.
Many Israel's supporters use the accusation too easy and too often, and many Israel's denouncers don't understand that they do cross the line easily. It's a very hard task to walk on this edge.

I'm a two state solution fun, also.
As David Hirsh wrote:
- The struggles against Islamophobia, antisemitism and anti-Arab racism, the struggle against the occupation of the West Bank and the struggle against the project to smash the State of Israel -these are all potentially democratic struggles, and, although they are distinct, they can be understood in a cosmopolitan way as belonging to the same family.

That is pro-Palestinian, pro-Israeli, pro-peace, but I have to say, it's time we must go ahead on solutions, not sides.
We should not stop supporting Palestinian statehood. Two-states for two peoples is the only solution to the conflict. But, do the BDSers and other hardliners 'antizionists' want this? A Palestinian state next to the Jewish state?
Or 'from the river to the sea' means a Palestinian state INSTEAD of the Jewish state and in the place of it?
Because, if this is the case (and for most of these people IS), you can count me out.

But we should radically rethink the currently fashionable demonizing and hateful ‘anti-Zionism’. If we refuse the right to national self-determination of just one people, the Jewish people, and if we are committed to boycotting just one state in the whole wide world, the little Jewish one, then this singling-out is antisemitic in consequence, whatever the subjective feelings or motivations of individual boycotters. It has no place on our society.

We have to support in both sides the rational ones and those who are willing to engage in serious conversations.

But we should also have always this in mind:
Even-handedness demands that we give both sides an equal hearing. OK, fair enough.

But in order to understand this problem, one must understand a critical cultural issue: civil societies thrive on self-criticism, and authoritarian ones thrive on scape-goating and demonizing. To take the 'narratives' from both sides as equally legitimate (or worse, to trust the demonic narrative primarily from the authoritarian side because they look like the weak and can mock people like this story with the convicted people's salaries), is to make critical category errors. In the battle between a totalitarian society and a democracy, 'even-handed' approaches will always favor the totalitarian state. Rather than appreciate the value and difficulty of self-criticism, reward it, and encourage it on the other side, it punishes the self-critical and rewards the demonizers.

Here's some interesting readings (don't mean I agree with everything, but they make useful points, all of them)

- Why Anti-Zionists Who Say They Aren’t Anti-Semitic Usually Are - The Forward, 29/09/2016
http://forward.com/scribe/351099/why-an ... 1-headline

- How to Criticize Israel Without Being Anti-Semitic (If you’ve spent any time discussing or reading about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I guarantee you’ve heard some variation of this statement: OMG, Jews think any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic!)
http://this-is-not-jewish.tumblr.com/po ... ti-semitic

- David Hirsh - Anti-Zionism and Antisemitism Cosmopolitan Reflections [Working Paper] [Yale + Institute for the Study of Global Antisemitism and Policy ISGAP 2007] - Yale Papers_Hirsh_Final.pdf
https://www.scribd.com/document/531151/ ... ti-Zionism

- David Hirsh - Anti-Zionism and Antisemitism Cosmopolitan Reflections In: Charles Asher Small (ed), The Yale Papers Antisemitism in comparative perspetive. New York: ISGAP, pp. 57-174. ISBN 9781515057796 [Book Section]
http://research.gold.ac.uk/14635/

- Nevet Basker, Dear Anti-Israel Activist, 23/09/2016
http://www.broaderview.org/Notes/dear-a ... l-activist

- Irwin Cotler, The Differences between Anti-Semitism and Criticism
http://wayback.archive.org/web/20100311 ... 3-22/6.asp
It is often difficult to specify the border between criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism.
Cotler has suggested some guidelines. He claims that critics of Israel become anti-Semites when:
They publicly call for the destruction of Israel and the Jewish people. This is the case with the covenants of Palestinian groups (the PLO and Hamas) and some militant Islamic legal rulings (fatawin), as well as the Iranian threat to annihilate Israel ("genocidal anti-Semitism").
They deny the Jewish people's right to self-determination, de-legitimize Israel as a state, and attribute to Israel all the world's evil ("political anti-Semitism").
They Nazify Israel ("ideological anti-Semitism").
Israel is characterized as the perfidious enemy of Islam ("theological anti-Semitism").
Israel is attributed a mix of evil qualities by salon intellectuals and Western elites ("cultural anti-Semitism").
They call for restrictions against those trading with Israel ("economic anti-Semitism").
They deny the Holocaust.
They support racist terrorism against Israel.
They single out Israel for discriminatory treatment in the international arena through denial of equality before the law.



Again, it is about time such posts to be removed in another thread than the one dedicated to "Jewish-Bolshevism"...As it is really confusing.
Can the moderation team do something about that?
Not that the topic is uninteresting but it is really misplaced and is open for misinterpretation.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:06 am

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:1. Feiglin has actually publiclly denounced many of hia past comments on this subject.

If this is so, I will stand corrected on his current status. I'm not following him around and made my conclusion based on past comments.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:41 pm

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:Maybe I'm wrong on this, but from my discussions with a number of Israelis and Jews friends, I have the impression that the word 'nationalism/nationalists' is not always the same between all for example European state-nations and the

US, too. Where the embittered, defensive nationalism - the nationalism of a quarrelsome drunk who wouldn't shut up all evening and is long overstaying his welcome - has alway fascinated me. People in the most powerful country in the world acting out for being disrespected, pushed around, and belittled. We are strange people.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Balsamo » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:02 pm

Kleon, as for the sentence quoted by Statmec,
It is important to make some important distinctions among concepts of nationalism, and to put them in their respective historical perspectives.
As everyone knows of course, most European country were in the 18th century absolute monarchy, there were no such thing as a Nation, there was a king - blessed by God - and his subjects.
To take the example of the king of France - one of them said "I am the State" - well France was not a Nation as it is understood today: The "French" did not even spoke the same language, a Britton had little to do with someone from the East/South/North, but the religion (catholic).
>To make short: as communication improved, as wars keep uniting the people from various part of the kingdom, as a common language (the actual French) spread etc, the idea of France being a Nation started to arise. All the philosophical discussion about that theme, and its political application became the first expression of Nationalism. Back then Nationalism was an attempt to create a new form of legitimacy to replace the Royal one.
This Nationalism was quite "open" as everyone who shared the same idea about the First French Republic could become a citizen wherever he was born. It was an essential part of the necessary "Nation building", with one of the first step being the implementation of a common language (French) through a network of public school along with less pleasant measures like the brutal suppression of regional language and traditions, conscription for the army, etc.

No country could have become a real democracy without the " national conscience" that was in some case imposed, brought by Nationalism, in this case, who turned various people and integrated them into ONE nation

In Central and Eastern Europe, where feodalism was deeper, you had the contrary: various people without Nation, people who shared one language, some cultural links, but who were spread across the whole continent, sometimes like you know under a Muslim empire. There the process would be more brutal, through wars and revolts (XIX), and through International decision after 1918, and of course, the way it was implemented brought more tragic consequences that it brought good.
From this mess and the "conservative revolutions" that took place, emerged the evil side of Nationalism, and the reasons behind its suppression (through the European construction for example).

Israel just lives in another time frame. Created in 1948, it still needs some form of "Nationalism" in its process of "Nation-building", because even if it is denied by some, being Jewish is sometimes not enough, and a friend told me, even among the Jewish citizens of Israel, the diversity is huge and therefore the challenges are still huge.
So the Israeli Nationalism is something a little different from the both described above as it is a bit a mix of the two.
As unpleasant as it is perceived today, Israel needs Nationalism, but because of its toxicity, because of the dangerous consequences of the concept itself, you know, like a medical treatment that its necessary but that is known for having really bad side effects, it should be thought more wisely in order to avoid the deadly mistakes of the past.

I am insisting on it in relation of what i wrote above: it is possible to have Nationalism without fascism.
Ernerst Renant's "What is a nation?" should be a mandatory reading down there: "A Man should not be the slave of his Race, of his language, of his religion, of the course of the rivers or the direction of the chains of Mountains. A great aggregation of Men, in their right mind and with warm hearts, creates a moral conscience that is called a Nation".

Difficult topic to reduce in a few lines, but yes Israel needs a form of Nationalism but it should be careful not to fall in the excesses of German's definition of the Nation (Fichte), or to chose in it with special care what is really useful and reject what had led some people into disasters. It is not easy of course, but the danger is greater when there is confusion between the means and the goals.

I do think that Israel is in a very confused situation, and unfortunately in the wrong dynamics. Choosing the political far right to lead the way is certainly not the way to go. It is a bad choice and always has been: it has been a wrong choice for the Germans, It is still a bad choice for all those frustrated Europeans (or Americans) who are tempted to cast they vote for Parties like the Nation Front, or individuals like Trump, there is absolutely no valid reason why it should then be a wise choice for the Israelis.
This is utter BS!

The far right is with very good reason fought and rejected all over the world, there is no Antisemitism in fighting and rejecting it in Israel.
The Apartheid was fought against through boycotting South Africa. Sometimes it felt unfair like when tennis player Kevin Curren was prevented from doing some competition, but it ended up being quite effective, and brought the most needed changes: the liberation of Mandela, and his presidency that led to a national reconciliation. All those who took part in this boycott (at least the vast majority of it) were not motivated by any hatred against the white South Africans, some - and among them myself - joined the movement because it was clear that it was the only way to go. the situation had to be stopped before the point of no return was reached, and the situation turned into a bloody massacre.
Today, what was thought impossible some decades ago is actually possible: you can live as a white citizen in South Africa along with Black citizens, under a black government. (Ok, i am not saying it was perfect as in every country)

So with all respect, it is about time that people like Irvin Cotler take the decision to finally shut the f***k up! Those individuals who dares to speak for a whole community, assured that they would be congratulated by their pairs, and apparently unconscious of their personal responsibilities in some resurgence of Antisemitism here and there ( in most cases, the threat is highly exaggerated when it comes to Europe as whole), and who used their self proclaimed right to say to other what is acceptable or not. It is insane.

So i will take the risk to address those warnings:
They deny the Jewish people's right to self-determination, de-legitimize Israel as a state, and attribute to Israel all the world's evil ("political anti-Semitism").

- Well obviously, but is it Antisemitism? Or just a political and territorial dispute between two people? Now, some Europeans or Westerners getting that far behind and promoting such insanities as "the Jewish people should leave Israel" a just stupidly naive or just stupid at all. Some AS might be among them. But again, i don't like words and concept that has no counter part...What would i be if i defended the idea that Lousiana should be given back to France or Florida to Spain? Anti-American or just a moron?
They Nazify Israel ("ideological anti-Semitism").

Of course, just another stupidity. I don't really understand why some people are tempted to use some Nazi ideology. Maybe because of the Antagonism between the two... Would it be less ideological anti-antisemitism if the comparison would be with the Mexicans and their policy with the Indians in the 50's?
I mean, Antisemitism is a real problem, but it is bad enough not to incorporate in it expression of stupidity.
Israel is characterized as the perfidious enemy of Islam ("theological anti-Semitism").

Well, unfortunately, this is one real and important problem, as it is the result of a deep rooted perception among the Arab population. And ironically, it is the most similar to the topic of this thread.
Jewish-Bolshevism was maybe a invention and was a misrepresentations of realities. The public perception made it historically real so to speak.
I don't mind calling it a expression of AS. And this makes it an important issue which would be better dealt with if the other craps were kind of wiped clean, as the following one:

"They call for restrictions against those trading with Israel ("economic anti-Semitism")."

That is BS of the strangest kind to me. As if some reaction to the potential election of Marine Le Pen applying her policies toward foreigners, including not buying smelly cheese would be the expression of an "Anti-french" sentiment!
I will personally boycott going to the USA for the next three years, that does not make me Anti-American.
Better example was South Africa above.

Israel is attributed a mix of evil qualities by salon intellectuals and Western elites ("cultural anti-Semitism").

For whatever that means...i don't understand it, sorry.

They deny the Holocaust.


Absurd! i guess that one can say that Holocaust deniers are or have become Anti-Semite. And that Anti-Semites are naturally against Israel.
But strangely enough, even this has some exception: I remember an interview of our french fascist French Lucien Rebatet who expressed his admiration for how Israel defended itself against the Arabs and his admiration of what the Jews achieved there, with still affirming that the Jews were guilty for World War 2.

They support racist terrorism against Israel.


Also something quite strange. Sincerely i don't know who is targeted here? Those who criticize Israel's policy would kind of automatically support Terrorism? And is this notion of Race? That some Palestinians are terrorist is an understatements, but i fail to see the racial motivation behind those attacks. The Jews are perceived as occupiers, quite obviously. I therefore doubt that there would have been less terrorist attacks if the occupiers were...the British or the French...
Israel suffers form terrorism, that is undeniable, and it is part of the issue.
And no one should support terrorism anyway.

They single out Israel for discriminatory treatment in the international arena through denial of equality before the law.


Well, this is a matter of debate. Granted the law is meant to be equal for all. Just like in any other country. But i for once have denounced many descriminations suffered by foreigners even in peaceful Belgium. It is not like i ever denied "equality before law", but there are too many examples - i stay in Belgium here - where darker skinned people are more easily subject to violence from the Police, or have much more difficulty to find a home in a well established white neighborhood.
Unfortunately, prejudices up to racism is quite an international problem, and there is no way Israel would be completely immune to it, especially given its situation.
I am not judging here: I am not sure that i would appreciate at first the presence of Arabs in my neighborhood neither, given the current atmosphere of fear.
So i am pretty sure the problem of discrimination toward Arab citizens do exist in Israel, even at the State level.
And calling it the expression of Antisemitism will not make the problem disappear.

You see, Kleon, the main problem i have with this kind of rethoric is basically that its message is "ok criticize, but know that you are on the thin red line, so be careful not to cross it", those kind of "warnings" are so full of manipulative analogies, of new definitions of Anti-Semitism (people tend to forget that the wording was invented by Antis-Semites themselves, and not by the victims of it (aka the Jews)) that it blurred the two real threats that are real in all those points, and the most important ones:

The genocidal threat: This one is real as still too many Arabs are not ready to accept the Jewish State presence, and often underestimated by even the most sincere critics of Israel. It is unfortunate, and i try to correct it when i can, but nothing impossible here
The theological threat which is basically the same as the above.
And of course, terrorism - " racially motivated or not" is not what matters - is a dreadful reality that needs to be addressed as a priority, but that would require sacrifices and efforts from both sides.

I had the opportunity to talk with some those you called BDSers, and i can only for the one i spoke with, but it seems to me that none of them do contest the right of Israel to exist, but they do assimilate the situation with South Africa. It is not about the people, nor the country, but with the Regime which should and would be considered as a pure far right government everywhere else.
On the other hand, behind those "Anti-zionists", there are a whole bunch who used this as a camouflage for real Antisemitism, that is also a fact, but really, it is the stupid side of the track. As someone pointed out, some of them pretend to defend the poor Palestinians - as long as they are not settled in the house next to theirs - and are profound racist toward Arabs and Muslims in general.
And along those they are the self assumed AS, residual ones, i must say as far as European are concerns. Most by the way don't really care about Israel but focus on the so called global "Jewish conspiration", well the usual stuff. They focus on Banks, the economy, the "system", etc...Some even would be pleased if every Jews could be sent to Israel...really...But this deep rooted form of AS is definitely on the decline globally...

But this reality should not be used to deny the one that is on the other sides: Israel is currently under a far right government, people are fed with Fears, and fear leads them to the far right, Fear also encourage to shut down dissonant voices and opinions, and hide behind policies that in fine will increase the level of fear. Plain racism and discrimination do exist in Israel as in other parts of the planet. Those are realities that also should not be ignored.

I do want to believe that there is a solution. If it was possible in South Africa after centuries of slavery followed by decades of official policies of apartheid, then it must be possible in Israel. And it has to, i just cannot understand those who wants Israel to have a future supporting the current policy that leads to just more future danger and nightmares. This is irrational and short sighted.
There is just no viable perspective as long as the far right is in command. It has never been.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:59 am

Oops Jeff, looks like you got it all wrong!!!

  Bolshevism was almost entirely Jewqish. I'll link the American intelligence draft on that in this comment. The reason the Russians turned on the Jews under Stalin was due to the fact that the Jews had wrecked Russia with all the same sexual degeneracy and general immorality of the Weimar Republic of the 1920's and the West of today, along with watching Yagoda and Trotsky purposely starve millions of Ukrainian Christians to death in the holodomor, and various other atrocities. Stalin rightly feared them. And you can't blame any of that on the Romanovs. Trotsky was born in New York City  
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:45 pm

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:Oops Jeff, looks like you got it all wrong!!!

  Bolshevism was almost entirely Jewqish. I'll link the American intelligence draft on that in this comment. The reason the Russians turned on the Jews under Stalin was due to the fact that the Jews had wrecked Russia with all the same sexual degeneracy and general immorality of the Weimar Republic of the 1920's and the West of today, along with watching Yagoda and Trotsky purposely starve millions of Ukrainian Christians to death in the holodomor, and various other atrocities. Stalin rightly feared them. And you can't blame any of that on the Romanovs. Trotsky was born in New York City  


He's off by a few years. Trotsky was gone before the Holdomor.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:59 pm

Is Jewqish some type of Jewish dumpling?

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:04 pm

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:Oops Jeff, looks like you got it all wrong!!!

  Bolshevism was almost entirely Jewqish. I'll link the American intelligence draft on that in this comment. The reason the Russians turned on the Jews under Stalin was due to the fact that the Jews had wrecked Russia with all the same sexual degeneracy and general immorality of the Weimar Republic of the 1920's and the West of today, along with watching Yagoda and Trotsky purposely starve millions of Ukrainian Christians to death in the holodomor, and various other atrocities. Stalin rightly feared them. And you can't blame any of that on the Romanovs. Trotsky was born in New York City  



So, do we have the American intelligence draft?

Also, silly boy doesn't understand that Yagoda was nothing more than Stalin's lapdog. Stalin drafted the decrees denying the Ukrainian peasants even their seed grain, forcing the peasants to make up any grain shortfalls with livestock, halted the flight of peasants to the cities and prevented any outside assistance from reaching the Ukraine. Only Stalin had that power, not Yagoda.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:44 pm

I wonder what the {!#%@} does "sexual degenracy in russia" supposwd to mean.

According to this guy, basically, Jews were overthrow n from power by Stalin, and yet...
Homosexuallity, albeit not offically banned, was univercally discouraged and viewd as vile by the general public long after his times (according to my parents), just like it was before and during Stalin's reign.
If he talks about feminism, yes, it was universally encouraged, but ywt again, it was also encouraged before and during Stalin's times (picking at WW2).
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:10 am

> with watching Yagoda and Trotsky purposely starve millions of Ukrainian Christians to death in the holodomor

Trotsky?

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:30 am

Sergey_Romanov wrote:> with watching Yagoda and Trotsky purposely starve millions of Ukrainian Christians to death in the holodomor

Trotsky?


That's what I said. Trotsky was gone during the Holdomor.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Balsamo » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:18 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:> with watching Yagoda and Trotsky purposely starve millions of Ukrainian Christians to death in the holodomor

Trotsky?


Of course, never heard of the "Yanaros Conspiracy"?
It's very well documented although those documents have been conveniently destroyed by the Mossad before the second world war, according to a secret interview of Itzak Rabin who was present at a dinner with Trotsky himself...There is a picture somewhere of the two looking at the see from the mansion's terrace. The best proof of this FACT is that - what a surprise!! - both the testimony and the photo are no longer available. Coincidence?

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:30 pm

Actually National Socialist racial theory accounts for any mysteries here. According to important research done by racial scientist Dr Bruno Beger of the Ahnenerbe in 1943, it was shown that, "the complete extermination of the Jews in Europe, and beyond that, in the whole world if possible, will not mean that the spiritual elements of Jewry, which we encounter at every turn, are fully eradicated. The important role of research on racial souls stems from this fact. Working tools, such as the one which Professor Clauss developed in the person of the half-Jewess, Lande, are indispensable for this research, since they form bridges to racial souls which are inimical to Germanic individuals."

This discovery can be applied to Jewish-Bolshevist Russia, where it can be seen that Jewish supremacy did not disappear from Communism there even if this or that Jew or almost all Jews did disappear from party and state. The Jews and Jew-thinking and Jewish racial souls remained dominant in Russia long after Stalin pretended to take care of Trotsky and Zinoviev in '27. Jewish racial souls continued to distort the regime, its ideology, and its actions for decades, including precipitation of the genocide discussed in this thread.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:01 pm

I've been told by a reliable source that Trotsky underwent a transracial rejuvenation therapy and took the name "Abomo" or something similar and then allegedly was defeated by the brave Ronald Tramp from taking his fifth term as the Resident of the USNA. So what my history textbook (2067 edn.) says (that Trotsky was quartered in Brazil during a Satanic ritual) may not be entirely true.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:35 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Actually National Socialist racial theory accounts for any mysteries here. According to important research done by racial scientist Dr Bruno Beger of the Ahnenerbe in 1943, it was shown that, "the complete extermination of the Jews in Europe, and beyond that, in the whole world if possible, will not mean that the spiritual elements of Jewry, which we encounter at every turn, are fully eradicated. The important role of research on racial souls stems from this fact. Working tools, such as the one which Professor Clauss developed in the person of the half-Jewess, Lande, are indispensable for this research, since they form bridges to racial souls which are inimical to Germanic individuals."

This discovery can be applied to Jewish-Bolshevist Russia, where it can be seen that Jewish supremacy did not disappear from Communism there even if this or that Jew or almost all Jews did disappear from party and state. The Jews and Jew-thinking and Jewish racial souls remained dominant in Russia long after Stalin pretended to take care of Trotsky and Zinoviev in '27. Jewish racial souls continued to distort the regime, its ideology, and its actions for decades, including precipitation of the genocide discussed in this thread.



Well, we can definitely see that spiritual element deeply embedded in this very (((forum))).

Spoiler:
I had to read what you said a couple of times, I'm currently knee-deep in yearly personnel evaluations and it's fried out my cognitive abilities....LOL

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:41 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:I've been told by a reliable source that Trotsky underwent a transracial rejuvenation therapy and took the name "Abomo" or something similar and then allegedly was defeated by the brave Ronald Tramp from taking his fifth term as the Resident of the USNA. So what my history textbook (2067 edn.) says (that Trotsky was quartered in Brazil during a Satanic ritual) may not be entirely true.


Wow, thank you for making that all so clear to me. Obviously Obama was nothing more than a Trotsky in sheep's clothing. It's obvious that Trump saved us all from the horrible fate of becoming nothing more than Communist lap dogs in the grip of the New World Order dominated by (((them))).
Last edited by Jeffk 1970 on Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:43 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Actually National Socialist racial theory accounts for any mysteries here. According to important research done by racial scientist Dr Bruno Beger of the Ahnenerbe in 1943, it was shown that, "the complete extermination of the Jews in Europe, and beyond that, in the whole world if possible, will not mean that the spiritual elements of Jewry, which we encounter at every turn, are fully eradicated. The important role of research on racial souls stems from this fact. Working tools, such as the one which Professor Clauss developed in the person of the half-Jewess, Lande, are indispensable for this research, since they form bridges to racial souls which are inimical to Germanic individuals."

This discovery can be applied to Jewish-Bolshevist Russia, where it can be seen that Jewish supremacy did not disappear from Communism there even if this or that Jew or almost all Jews did disappear from party and state. The Jews and Jew-thinking and Jewish racial souls remained dominant in Russia long after Stalin pretended to take care of Trotsky and Zinoviev in '27. Jewish racial souls continued to distort the regime, its ideology, and its actions for decades, including precipitation of the genocide discussed in this thread.



Well, we can definitely see that spiritual element deeply embedded in this very (((forum))).

Spoiler:
I had to read what you said a couple of times, I'm currently knee-deep in yearly personnel evaluations and it's fried out my cognitive abilities....LOL

LOL, the quotation from Beger is for real, from a letter to Himmler sent in 1943.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:54 pm

One interesting thing I've learned in reading a "People's Tragedy," the Latvian Communists were very fanatical believers and were often used as shock troops during the Civil War.
The Latvian Pēteris Stučka (not a Jew, as far as I can tell. His parents were Latvian peasants) attended the negotiations leading up to the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, survived the Civil War and fled Latvia when Latvia gained its independence. He served as the President of the Soviet Supreme Court (among other things he was a renowned jurist) and died in 1932 (was not purged, was buried with full honors).
Deniers often forgot how truly international the Communist movement really was. They yammer on and on about Yagoda but the original Cheka himself, Felix Dzerzhinsky, was the son of Polish nobility, brought up in the Catholic Church and in his childhood considered becoming a Jesuit priest.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:55 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:One interesting thing I've learned in reading a "People's Tragedy," the Latvian Communists were very fanatical believers and were often used as shock troops during the Civil War.


Lenin referred to them as the "Praetorian Guard of the Revolution". They also dominated the early Cheka - 70% of middle management. Yen no one talks about that today. The NKVD officer who oversaw a good chunk of the Holodomar - Stanislaus Redens - was a Latvian.

And who the {!#%@} said that Trotsky was born in NYC? I'd like the name and number of his dealer please and thank you!
Last edited by Jeff_36 on Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:57 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:56 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Actually National Socialist racial theory accounts for any mysteries here. According to important research done by racial scientist Dr Bruno Beger of the Ahnenerbe in 1943, it was shown that, "the complete extermination of the Jews in Europe, and beyond that, in the whole world if possible, will not mean that the spiritual elements of Jewry, which we encounter at every turn, are fully eradicated. The important role of research on racial souls stems from this fact. Working tools, such as the one which Professor Clauss developed in the person of the half-Jewess, Lande, are indispensable for this research, since they form bridges to racial souls which are inimical to Germanic individuals."

This discovery can be applied to Jewish-Bolshevist Russia, where it can be seen that Jewish supremacy did not disappear from Communism there even if this or that Jew or almost all Jews did disappear from party and state. The Jews and Jew-thinking and Jewish racial souls remained dominant in Russia long after Stalin pretended to take care of Trotsky and Zinoviev in '27. Jewish racial souls continued to distort the regime, its ideology, and its actions for decades, including precipitation of the genocide discussed in this thread.


.......... that is maybe the most hilarious thing I have ever read in my life.


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