refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Denying-History » Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:33 am

Doesn't matter, the guy madeholocaust denial illegal in his nation... And the subject is really irrelevant to if the Jews ran the communist government.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby ryu » Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:15 pm

I know...yet they still worship the guy...weird...

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:33 pm

Denying-History wrote:Doesn't matter, the guy madeholocaust denial illegal in his nation... And the subject is really irrelevant to if the Jews ran the communist government.


Jews are if anything far more prominent in the ranks of Russian oligarchs (Malkin, Khan) than the communists. That is not a positive thing in that the oligarchs are without exception absolutely dreadful, dreadful people, but they are the furthest thing from communist.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Denying-History » Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:37 pm

ryu wrote:I know...yet they still worship the guy...weird...


Its called state media... Read up on its effects.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Denying-History » Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:37 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Doesn't matter, the guy madeholocaust denial illegal in his nation... And the subject is really irrelevant to if the Jews ran the communist government.


Jews are if anything far more prominent in the ranks of Russian oligarchs (Malkin, Khan) than the communists. That is not a positive thing in that the oligarchs are without exception absolutely dreadful, dreadful people, but they are the furthest thing from communist.


True.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby ryu » Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:51 pm

Again holocaust deniers don't see this neither do neo Nazis in general yet they blame the commies?

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Denying-History » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:41 pm

Does it really matter, the only point that needs to be pushed here is they are wrong and even if they had their facts straight then it shows a hidden agenda, as they would be trying to put the atrocity of a few on the meny.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby ryu » Sat Jul 09, 2016 3:01 am

Right.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 6:33 pm

during the Russian Civil War Moscow’s chief rabbi, Rabbi Jacob Mazeh, asked Trotsky to use the red army to protect Moscow's Jews from pogroms. Trotsky reportedly responded: “Why do you come to me? I am not Jewish" .

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Jul 13, 2016 7:20 pm

I have gone through the list of attendees of the 1934 CPSU conference. Of the 71 delegates, only 12 were of Jewish nationality. Of the six speakers, only one (Kaganovich) was of Jewish nationality. This should paint an accurate picture of the situation, and dispel any charges that the Stalinist machine was run by Jews. 15% does not a dominant share make.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:02 pm

I have taken a huge interest in the leadership of the USSR in the period between 1930 and 1934. Why? Because it was at this time that the Nazis came to power in Germany, on the back of a campaign characterized by repeated statements to the effect that Jews ran the USSR. We will see if there was much truth in their claims.

The 16th Central Committee of the USSR, which ruled over the oppressed masses from 1930-1934 had 71 members, of which 9 were Jews. In addition, there were 67 "candidate members" (I have a tough time grasping commie apparatchik speak, don't ask me what that means lol) of which 9 (including the deplorable Yagoda) were Jews.

Jews were more overrepresented among the Bureau chiefs, but were still a minority here: of the 19, 5 were Jews. Come 1936, the number of Jews would go down to 4, but with an increase of the number of Bureau Chiefs to 26, thus giving a lower percentage.

Of the eleven members of the Orgburo, only 2 were of Jewish descent. Of the 4 Candidate members of the Orgburo, none were of Jewish descent.

Of the seven members (full members and candidate members) of the Secretariat, only one, Kaganovich, was of Jewish origins.

Most importantly, of the 12 members of the Politburo, the most powerful body in Stalin's empire, only one (again, Kaganovich) was a Jew. None of the five candidate members of the politburo were Jews.

Of the thirteen members of the Central Auditing Comission, two were of Jewish parentage.

The percentages tally up like so:

Central Committee: 12%

Central Committee Candidate members: 13%

Bureau Chiefs: 26%

Orgburo: 18%, 13% if you include the candidates.

Secretariat: 14%

Central Auditing Comission: 15%

Politburo: 8%, 5% if you include the candidates.

The percentages added together and then averaged out runs up to between 14-15%. If one includes the bodies which had no Jewish members at all as a unit of factoring unto itself the numbers come out at 11.7%. Adding and averaging all the possible percentages measured above comes out as 13.5%.

These numbers do not give heed to talk of "domination" and "control".

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Balsamo » Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:29 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:I have taken a huge interest in the leadership of the USSR in the period between 1930 and 1934. Why? Because it was at this time that the Nazis came to power in Germany, on the back of a campaign characterized by repeated statements to the effect that Jews ran the USSR. We will see if there was much truth in their claims.

The 16th Central Committee of the USSR, which ruled over the oppressed masses from 1930-1934 had 71 members, of which 9 were Jews. In addition, there were 67 "candidate members" (I have a tough time grasping commie apparatchik speak, don't ask me what that means lol) of which 9 (including the deplorable Yagoda) were Jews.

Jews were more overrepresented among the Bureau chiefs, but were still a minority here: of the 19, 5 were Jews. Come 1936, the number of Jews would go down to 4, but with an increase of the number of Bureau Chiefs to 26, thus giving a lower percentage.

Of the eleven members of the Orgburo, only 2 were of Jewish descent. Of the 4 Candidate members of the Orgburo, none were of Jewish descent.

Of the seven members (full members and candidate members) of the Secretariat, only one, Kaganovich, was of Jewish origins.

Most importantly, of the 12 members of the Politburo, the most powerful body in Stalin's empire, only one (again, Kaganovich) was a Jew. None of the five candidate members of the politburo were Jews.

Of the thirteen members of the Central Auditing Comission, two were of Jewish parentage.

The percentages tally up like so:

Central Committee: 12%

Central Committee Candidate members: 13%

Bureau Chiefs: 26%

Orgburo: 18%, 13% if you include the candidates.

Secretariat: 14%

Central Auditing Comission: 15%

Politburo: 8%, 5% if you include the candidates.

The percentages added together and then averaged out runs up to between 14-15%. If one includes the bodies which had no Jewish members at all as a unit of factoring unto itself the numbers come out at 11.7%. Adding and averaging all the possible percentages measured above comes out as 13.5%.

These numbers do not give heed to talk of "domination" and "control".


Agree that we cannot talk about domination and control, epsecially since Stalin took power. Still with 14-15% one can speak of "over-representation" as the Jews constituted around 3-4% of the population. Enough at least to perpetuate the fantasy.
Unfortunately, i doubt you would get those results if you focus on the period 1919-1924.

Debunking is fine with me, but it has its limits.
Again, i am not supporting the reality of Jewish Bolshevism in any way, it was and it is still one of the most famous Conspiracy theories. But it existed in a time when the dominant way of thinking of the society, especially historical events like social revolution, was through conspiracies. Conspiracies was promoted by the establishment.
Theories promoted by the establishment does not make those theories true, but it gives them a real existence, socially and politically speaking.

Again, to repeat myself, the concept of Jewish Boslhevism, just like its twin brother "Judeo-masonry" was not invented by the Nazis. The poison was spread long before as a core belief among some social classes since the XIX century. It became a national obsession in most part of central and eastern Europe, the closer to the USSR borders, the stronger the reality was anchored.

I agree with you that is quite easy to debunk the validity of this CT, even more after Lenin's death. But its social and politcal existence is undeniable.

Otherwise, how would one explain the horrible massacres perpetuated in the Ukraine, the Baltic States - before the Germans occupied those countries - or those perpetuated by the Romanians. We are not talking about small numbers here. Some 24.000 Jews were killed by the Ukrainians before the occupation, a whole bunch in the Baltic States.
So why did those massacres took place?

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 1:38 am

Balsamo wrote:Agree that we cannot talk about domination and control, epsecially since Stalin took power. Still with 14-15% one can speak of "over-representation" as the Jews constituted around 3-4% of the population. Enough at least to perpetuate the fantasy.


Hardly. People of East Indian extraction make up about 1.5% of the Canadian population but make up 13% of the cabinet, including the defense minister. No one here talks about "Indio-Liberalism". 14% is the same as the number of Americans who don't have access to internet. It is overrepresentation when one looks at the whole population of Russia at the time, but when one looks at the Urban population it comes off as less of a gap.


Unfortunately, i doubt you would get those results if you focus on the period 1919-1924.


I focus on the period mentioned above because that is when the Nazis used the canard to take power.

Again, to repeat myself, the concept of Jewish Boslhevism, just like its twin brother "Judeo-masonry" was not invented by the Nazis. The poison was spread long before as a core belief among some social classes since the XIX century. It became a national obsession in most part of central and eastern Europe


No, but they utilized it heavily and took power off of the back of it. And they used it as justification for the Einsatzgruppen massacres.

the closer to the USSR borders, the stronger the reality was anchored.


It depends. Stalanist Russia was governed for the most part by ethnic Russians, you also see a good number of Georgians the closer you get to the top. To call it a "reality" the numbers would have to be much higher, for me at least.

You ever read about the numbers from Bela Kun's Hungary? That is what a predominantly Jewish government looks like.


I agree with you that is quite easy to debunk the validity of this CT, even more after Lenin's death. But its social and politcal existence is undeniable.


I agree, I'm merely stating that the percentages above don't raise eyebrows like they did in Hungary in 1919.

Otherwise, how would one explain the horrible massacres perpetuated in the Ukraine, the Baltic States - before the Germans occupied those countries - or those perpetuated by the Romanians. We are not talking about small numbers here. Some 24.000 Jews were killed by the Ukrainians before the occupation, a whole bunch in the Baltic States.
So why did those massacres took place?


Latvians were very overrepresented, especially in the Cheka in the late 10's and early 20's. The red terror was run mostly by Latvians and Lenin referred to them as "the praetorian guard of the revolution". Why were their no massacres of Latvians?

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 1:46 am

I also focus on that period because that is when the worst of the collectivization occurred, as well as the Holodomar.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:05 am

The membership Statistics from 1927-1930

Bureau Chiefs: 14, of which 1 was of Jewish descent. Total: 7%

Full Members of the Central Committee: 71, of which 8 were Jewish. Total 11%

Candidates: 50 of which 8 were Jewish. Total: 16%

Auditing Comission: 9, of which 2 were Jewish. Total: 22%

Orgburo: 25, of which 3 were of Jewish descent. Total: 12%

Politburo: 10, of which 1 was of Jewish descent. Total: 10%

Grand total: 13%

It seems that the numbers held steady at 10-15% for most of Stalin's first decade in power. While overrepresented, these figures do not lend credence to contemporary descriptions of Russia as being led by a Jewish government.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:34 am

The membership Statistics from 1934-1939

Bureau Chiefs: 21, of which 3 were of Jewish descent. Total 15%

Full Members of the Central Committee: 71, of which 11 were Jews. Total: 15%

Candidates: 68, of which 10 were Jews. Total: 14%

Auditing Comission: 22, of which 4 were of Jewish descent. Total: 18%

Orgburo: 11 of which 2 were Jews. Total: 18%

Politburo: 21, of which 1 was of Jewish descent. Total: 4%

Secretariat: 6, of which 1 was of Jewish origin. Total: 16%

Grand total: 14%

If one adds the total percentages of Jewish members all the incarnations of the Soviet government from 1927-1939, and divides them by the number of incarnations of the various bodies, the number would come up as 13.5%.

That is the total, 13.5%. Overrepresentation yes, but not dramatic overrepresentation and it hardly catches the eye. In no way is it hegemony.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:19 pm

Now looking at the regional heads of the NKVD in 1934-1937..... I have 300 names to run through Russian Wikipedia and cross reference with all manner of sketch Russian databases FML. This might take several days. I've got a tally system set up on Microsoft Excel and I'm going to have to make notes to help myself find where I last left off.

Let's take a moment in acknowledgment of google translate, although at this rate I'm beginning to understand the Cyrillic alphabet......

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:41 am

Jeff_36 wrote:I'm beginning to understand the Cyrillic alphabet......
Это хорошие новости. Присоединиться к клубу. :D

There are two other members in the general forum, also learning Russian at the moment.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:45 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:I'm beginning to understand the Cyrillic alphabet......
Это хорошие новости. Присоединиться к клубу. :D

There are two other members in the general forum, also learning Russian at the moment.


The words I can understand on sight at this point are "Еврей", "Русский", "Латыш", and "Грузин". Not of my own will but through many, many hours of scanning sketchy Russian databases.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby NathanC » Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:24 pm

So Recently, I saw this lie in action not too long ago. The person using it was a far left Russia Fanboy, and cited Yagoda to "defend" or "excuse" Czarist Pogroms against Jews (which coincidentally happened long before Yagoda was born, or for that manner before there was any "Judeo Bolshevism" to justify these Pogroms). The guy doesn't seem to be a Neo-Nazi: he did mention and praise "Russia" for beating the Nazis.

What I'm getting at is that the myth of Judeo Bolshevism seems to fulfill a social function in addition to just being an Antisemitic lie. That is, it also has a role in Russian Nationalism or far left extremism. The Myth allows them to pin all of the blame of the Soviet Union's atrocities on "The Jews" and allows them to cling to the myth of Russia being better than the West. I.e, it allows them to say "The Soviet Union wasn't all that Bad: It was all 'The Jews' fault!' The rest of Russia was awesome!". It's not surprising where you see the same people insist that the Communists/Russia are better than the USA/"The West" and simultaneously minimize Nazi Crimes and the Holocaust by citing the lie of "Judeo Bolshevism" or that (Jewish controlled) Russia was worse.

Does this make sense?

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:10 am

NathanC wrote:So Recently, I saw this lie in action not too long ago. The person using it was a far left Russia Fanboy, and cited Yagoda to "defend" or "excuse" Czarist Pogroms against Jews (which coincidentally happened long before Yagoda was born, or for that manner before there was any "Judeo Bolshevism" to justify these Pogroms). The guy doesn't seem to be a Neo-Nazi: he did mention and praise "Russia" for beating the Nazis.

What I'm getting at is that the myth of Judeo Bolshevism seems to fulfill a social function in addition to just being an Antisemitic lie. That is, it also has a role in Russian Nationalism or far left extremism. The Myth allows them to pin all of the blame of the Soviet Union's atrocities on "The Jews" and allows them to cling to the myth of Russia being better than the West. I.e, it allows them to say "The Soviet Union wasn't all that Bad: It was all 'The Jews' fault!' The rest of Russia was awesome!". It's not surprising where you see the same people insist that the Communists/Russia are better than the USA/"The West" and simultaneously minimize Nazi Crimes and the Holocaust by citing the lie of "Judeo Bolshevism" or that (Jewish controlled) Russia was worse.

Does this make sense?


Absolutely, it all makes sense.

Really any minority can fit the bill but in Europe it seems to be Jews.

I don't get the guy citing Yagoda, as you say, he was Stalin's creature and had nothing to do with the Czars and their pogroms.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby NathanC » Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:24 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
NathanC wrote:So Recently, I saw this lie in action not too long ago. The person using it was a far left Russia Fanboy, and cited Yagoda to "defend" or "excuse" Czarist Pogroms against Jews (which coincidentally happened long before Yagoda was born, or for that manner before there was any "Judeo Bolshevism" to justify these Pogroms). The guy doesn't seem to be a Neo-Nazi: he did mention and praise "Russia" for beating the Nazis.

What I'm getting at is that the myth of Judeo Bolshevism seems to fulfill a social function in addition to just being an Antisemitic lie. That is, it also has a role in Russian Nationalism or far left extremism. The Myth allows them to pin all of the blame of the Soviet Union's atrocities on "The Jews" and allows them to cling to the myth of Russia being better than the West. I.e, it allows them to say "The Soviet Union wasn't all that Bad: It was all 'The Jews' fault!' The rest of Russia was awesome!". It's not surprising where you see the same people insist that the Communists/Russia are better than the USA/"The West" and simultaneously minimize Nazi Crimes and the Holocaust by citing the lie of "Judeo Bolshevism" or that (Jewish controlled) Russia was worse.

Does this make sense?


Absolutely, it all makes sense.

Really any minority can fit the bill but in Europe it seems to be Jews.

I don't get the guy citing Yagoda, as you say, he was Stalin's creature and had nothing to do with the Czars and their pogroms.


I didn't get it either at first. The conversation was about how Ukraine Commemorating the Babi Yar massacre was in response to Russian Propaganda painting them as Nazi Sympathizers. One person talked about how Russians were being hypocrites considering their own history of Antisemitic progroms. And then comes the douchebag responding to him by talking about how Yagoda was responsible for killing 20 Million Russians.

It was only after thinking about it that I figured it out. Like I said, the douchebag was a Russia fanboy. In his eyes, Russia and Russians can do no wrong, and everything bad about the Soviet Union was all the fault of "the" Jews like mean old Yagoda. Like the other Jeff mentioned,though, the NON JEWS who carried out the Holodomor never came in to his mind.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:05 am

to be fair Yagoda was an extraordinarily evil person. But he was only a Jew in the most marginal, trivial way possible. In fact he had converted to Russian Orthodoxy before embracing revolutionary communism and would thus not count as a Jew in the eyes of most.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:17 am

Jeff_36 wrote:to be fair Yagoda was an extraordinarily evil person. But he was only a Jew in the most marginal, trivial way possible. In fact he had converted to Russian Orthodoxy before embracing revolutionary communism and would thus not count as a Jew in the eyes of most.


He was an evil person. So was Yezhov and Beria. Neither one was Jewish (though Yezhov had a Jewish wife).
Yezhov presided over the worst of the Great Purge. Beria himself was a rapist and murderer.
I notice it's rare to bring them up.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:17 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:to be fair Yagoda was an extraordinarily evil person. But he was only a Jew in the most marginal, trivial way possible. In fact he had converted to Russian Orthodoxy before embracing revolutionary communism and would thus not count as a Jew in the eyes of most.


He was an evil person. So was Yezhov and Beria. Neither one was Jewish (though Yezhov had a Jewish wife).
Yezhov presided over the worst of the Great Purge. Beria himself was a rapist and murderer.
I notice it's rare to bring them up.


They loooove to talk about Naftaly Frenkel, but the never seem to discuss Alexander Sorokin or Eudard Berzin, or Ivan Zaphrozhets or any of the other non-Jewish GULAG bosses......

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Xcalibur » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:26 am

This is old,right?

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby NathanC » Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:10 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:to be fair Yagoda was an extraordinarily evil person. But he was only a Jew in the most marginal, trivial way possible. In fact he had converted to Russian Orthodoxy before embracing revolutionary communism and would thus not count as a Jew in the eyes of most.


He was an evil person. So was Yezhov and Beria. Neither one was Jewish (though Yezhov had a Jewish wife).
Yezhov presided over the worst of the Great Purge. Beria himself was a rapist and murderer.
I notice it's rare to bring them up.


When Beria does get brought up, they say he was Jewish.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:59 pm

NathanC wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:to be fair Yagoda was an extraordinarily evil person. But he was only a Jew in the most marginal, trivial way possible. In fact he had converted to Russian Orthodoxy before embracing revolutionary communism and would thus not count as a Jew in the eyes of most.


He was an evil person. So was Yezhov and Beria. Neither one was Jewish (though Yezhov had a Jewish wife).
Yezhov presided over the worst of the Great Purge. Beria himself was a rapist and murderer.
I notice it's rare to bring them up.


When Beria does get brought up, they say he was Jewish.


I just caught this. Really? People think Beria was Jewish? That's hysterical.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby NathanC » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:14 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
NathanC wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:to be fair Yagoda was an extraordinarily evil person. But he was only a Jew in the most marginal, trivial way possible. In fact he had converted to Russian Orthodoxy before embracing revolutionary communism and would thus not count as a Jew in the eyes of most.


He was an evil person. So was Yezhov and Beria. Neither one was Jewish (though Yezhov had a Jewish wife).
Yezhov presided over the worst of the Great Purge. Beria himself was a rapist and murderer.
I notice it's rare to bring them up.


When Beria does get brought up, they say he was Jewish.


I just caught this. Really? People think Beria was Jewish? That's hysterical.


Really. There was one internet meme shared by a Palestinian person that talked about the "Jewish Beria" exaggerating the number of Holocaust dead for the Soviet Union. As we all know, Beria was not Jewish, and the Soviet Union buried and did not exaggerate the Holocaust.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:33 pm

NathanC wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
NathanC wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:to be fair Yagoda was an extraordinarily evil person. But he was only a Jew in the most marginal, trivial way possible. In fact he had converted to Russian Orthodoxy before embracing revolutionary communism and would thus not count as a Jew in the eyes of most.


He was an evil person. So was Yezhov and Beria. Neither one was Jewish (though Yezhov had a Jewish wife).
Yezhov presided over the worst of the Great Purge. Beria himself was a rapist and murderer.
I notice it's rare to bring them up.


When Beria does get brought up, they say he was Jewish.


I just caught this. Really? People think Beria was Jewish? That's hysterical.


Really. There was one internet meme shared by a Palestinian person that talked about the "Jewish Beria" exaggerating the number of Holocaust dead for the Soviet Union. As we all know, Beria was not Jewish, and the Soviet Union buried and did not exaggerate the Holocaust.


That's sad.
I understand Palestinians utilizing Holocaust denial as an expression of their hatred of Isreal. It doesn't make it right but it is understandable and I blame Isreali policies for that.
But, good grief...a simple Internet search..Wikipedia...

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:14 am

NathanC wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
NathanC wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:to be fair Yagoda was an extraordinarily evil person. But he was only a Jew in the most marginal, trivial way possible. In fact he had converted to Russian Orthodoxy before embracing revolutionary communism and would thus not count as a Jew in the eyes of most.


He was an evil person. So was Yezhov and Beria. Neither one was Jewish (though Yezhov had a Jewish wife).
Yezhov presided over the worst of the Great Purge. Beria himself was a rapist and murderer.
I notice it's rare to bring them up.


When Beria does get brought up, they say he was Jewish.


I just caught this. Really? People think Beria was Jewish? That's hysterical.


Really. There was one internet meme shared by a Palestinian person that talked about the "Jewish Beria" exaggerating the number of Holocaust dead for the Soviet Union. As we all know, Beria was not Jewish, and the Soviet Union buried and did not exaggerate the Holocaust.


Beria was not Jewish, and was actually known to hold antisemitic opinions, although not to the same level as Stalin or Molotov.

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Re: Karl Marx "On the Jewish Question"

Postby NathanC » Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:09 pm

NathanC wrote:
Balsamo wrote:The Marxist approach is different. Marx hated Religion- "people's opium"-, responsible for all the deliberate delay in the "people's emancipation"... Truth is that the eastern Jews, and specifically those in Russia, where mostly religious ones....So it is of course an aberration to say that Marx was an anti-semite in the accepted terms as he welcomed all the emancipated Jews


Jeff wrote:**BUZZER SOUND*** Wrong! Marx loathed Jews and repeated many medieval Anti-Jewish Canards in his 1847 essay. That goes beyond simple internationalism IMO.


Reading Marx's essay, you can really see that it wasn't just the Jewish religion that Marx considered a problem. In his view, Jewish people embodied the very essence of capitalism. He really bought into the idea that the Jews ran finance, and the usual stereotypes.

From the man himself:

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/w ... -question/

Karl Marx wrote:Let us consider the actual, worldly Jew – not the Sabbath Jew, as Bauer does, but the everyday Jew.

Let us not look for the secret of the Jew in his religion, but let us look for the secret of his religion in the real Jew.

What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money.

Very well then! Emancipation from huckstering and money, consequently from practical, real Judaism, would be the self-emancipation of our time.


Karl Marx wrote: Money is the jealous god of Israel, in face of which no other god may exist. Money degrades all the gods of man – and turns them into commodities. Money is the universal self-established value of all things. It has, therefore, robbed the whole world – both the world of men and nature – of its specific value. Money is the estranged essence of man’s work and man’s existence, and this alien essence dominates him, and he worships it.


Karl Marx wrote:The god of the Jews has become secularized and has become the god of the world. The bill of exchange is the real god of the Jew. His god is only an illusory bill of exchange.


He clearly had a problem with more than just the Jewish Faith. He may not have wanted to kill them, but to say he wasn't prejudiced or anything is incorrect.


Apparently, the Dude who reviewed Karl Marx's dissertation - Jakob Friedrich Fries - was an anti semite. In 1816, he wrote an antisemitic tract: On the Endangerment of the prosperity and Character of the Germans by the Jews. He opposed Jewish emancipation and wanted to severely restrict it. He acknowledged that Non Jews were also getting rich and posed a threat to the "traditional" lifestyle that the peasantry was clinging to, but he blamed it all on "Jewish corruption"

Marxism takes on a whole new meaning if you consider the time Karl Marx wrote it and who he was trying to appeal to. 19th Century Antisemitism started when impoverished Germans clinging to outdated traditions were "envious" of Jews taking advantage of emancipation to educate and better themselves. The former category was no doubt the audience Marx was trying to appeal to. I've always thought that Communism was just "Antisemitism without Jews", since the main target and bogeyman of communism was the bourgeoisie and the alleged character of the bourgeoisie shared a lot of similarities with the stereotype of the "Jewish Bankster". You could say that Marxism/Communism grew out of the same well that 19th Century Antisemitism came from, and grew with and because of it.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:38 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:1. All of the leading Jewish members of the Russian Revolution were hardcore antitheist atheists. Without exception. And unlike most atheist Jews (like Milton Freidman or Geddy Lee) they utterly rejected the Jewish culture and the Jewish identity as well. So in essence they were former Jews who did not think of themselves as Jewish anymore. Trotsky even stated "I am not a Jew, I am an internationalist." Communism was their religion and they should be viewed through that lenses. In essence they were about as Jewish as Hitler, Himmler, Globocnik, and Eichmann were Catholic. .


Not only does Socialism does not have it's source in the Jewish religion, as Nazis and Alt-Rgihters like to say ("Acthung! The Kikes are pushing the Talmudic communism into western society in order to weaken white males!!!!"), it actually opposes it . I'm not going to go into to much detail, but bascially the Jewish religion is the most supportive of private private share and generally "capitalist" values of all Abrahamic religions (i'll let you decide for yourself if that's a good or a bad thing). All this talk about "tribalism and "rabbi-dictatorship" is 99% BS, especially today. I'm active in Libertarian groups here in Israel, and sometimes it feels like I'm the only secular Jew in these groups. All the rest are religious Jews. The most anti-statist and pro free-market politician in Israel is the very religous Moshe Feiglin, while the partys that promote modern socialism are made of atheist Jews and Arabs.

If anything, socialism and simillar stuff have there roots in "Chrsitian values" more than anything else. Once again, not saying if that's a good or a bad thing, but Christianity places helping the poor and the weak above Justice, and well, that's basically socialism in a nutshell. Socialism was born when people who grew up in Christianity based cultures felt that the state is not working based on said values, and saught other ways to achieve them. Other, non religous, ways.

Irocnially, the "help the weak" mentallity is also what's behind the PC/SJW/Feminist movements that Alt-Righters claim Jews invented in order to, once again, "weaken the white man". So they basically claim that Jews use ideas which are based on Christian dogmas in order to hurt Christian people. LOL.
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:57 pm

Reading about the early years of Hitler's life in Ullrich's new biography underscores for me the extent to which post-WWI events in Munich (the Eisner and Toller "experiments," the Munich Soviet, Epp's Freikorps suppression of the left) imprinted on Hitler and the nascent NSDAP a deep revulsion for the left and the republic along hatred for what they conceived as Judeo-Bolshevism. Underplaying the importance of the domestic cauldron of Munich in development of the latter concept among the German right - in favor of an exclusive focus on developments in the east - seems to me to be a serious mistake.

(Ullrich argues that, in contrast to Hitler's self-portrait in Mein Kampf, it was not during his years in Vienna but, partly under the influence of Feder and in reaction to the revolutionary upheavals in Bavaria in the immediate postwar when he was in a Reichswehr intelligence unit, that Hitler's anti-Semitic fixation formed - and fused with his anti-left animus.)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Balsamo » Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:08 pm

Well things are not always like they seem:
Two videos and some thoughts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D97gP-1zyqQ

just waouw
and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfFKLV4i0QQ

Enjoy and sorry if you don't like Pink Floyd.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:44 pm

Balsamo wrote:Well things are not always like they seem:
Two videos and some thoughts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D97gP-1zyqQ

just waouw
and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfFKLV4i0QQ

Enjoy and sorry if you don't like Pink Floyd.


Can't go wrong with Floyd.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:45 am

In his Hitler biography, Ullrich describes how at the Nuremberg party rally in 1937 the Führer went on a tirade against the "Jewish race." in the course of his speech, Hitler stated that over 80 percent of the "leading positions" in the USSR were "occupied by Jews." Ullrich then makes an observation relative to this topic: among the victims of the purges ongoing during this period were Jews like Karl Radek. This phenomenon, says Ullrich, went over Hitler's head but led "a puzzled Goebbels" to write in his diary, "The show trial is continuing in Russia. The Jews are eating themselves." (pp 658, 925) (Hitler continued from his point about the USSR asking a series of "who was behind it" questions about the Bavarian Soviet republic, Spartacus, and the KPD - answering, "They were Jews and Jews only!" (p 658)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:42 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:In his Hitler biography, Ullrich describes how at the Nuremberg party rally in 1937 the Führer went on a tirade against the "Jewish race." in the course of his speech, Hitler stated that over 80 percent of the "leading positions" in the USSR were "occupied by Jews." Ullrich then makes an observation relative to this topic: among the victims of the purges ongoing during this period were Jews like Karl Radek. This phenomenon, says Ullrich, went over Hitler's head but led "a puzzled Goebbels" to write in his diary, "The show trial is continuing in Russia. The Jews are eating themselves." (pp 658, 925) (Hitler continued from his point about the USSR asking a series of "who was behind it" questions about the Bavarian Soviet republic, Spartacus, and the KPD - answering, "They were Jews and Jews only!" (p 658)


The Bavarian Revolutionaries were disproportionately Jewish, and there were many Jews among the Spartacus rebels, but the KPD had very few Jewish members, and as has been pointed out here earlier, the Berlin Police Chief that put down a number of left wing uprisings was himself Jewish. Inconvenient facts had a habit of flying over Hitler`s head.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:55 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:Inconvenient facts had a habit of flying over Hitler`s head.

Interesting to me that Goebbels was able to recognize the gap between fact and fiction in the show trials - but persevered with the belief, despite the evidence, just the same.

Hitler's statement, made as late as 1937, shows in part that it was not just from the east that his understanding of Judeo-Communism developed. The formative experience of the immediate postwar years and the upheavals Germany experience then shouldn't be underestimated.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927


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