refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue May 22, 2018 12:44 am

This discussion is making me very nervous about the possibility of Judeo-Maoism and, more relevant today, Judeo-Juche.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby BRoI » Tue May 22, 2018 1:18 am

Sergey_Romanov wrote:So according to the BRoI, when the proven antisemitic hoaxer Wilton invented the "kabbalistic" symbols used by secret Jewish societies to which the murderers belonged (the symbols, of course, having nothing to do with kabbalah in real life) and claimed that Jews murdered the Tsar and his family according to a plan as Jews, not as Bolsheviks (since he invents the fact of the "Russian" Lenin being against it) it doesn't mean ritual murder.


I don't have time to document all Sergey's clever tricks; I'll just cut to the chase.

The 2nd paragraph of the endnote, on which Sergey's relies ("symbols used by secret Jewish societies"), struck me as very odd. It not only contradicts what Wilton says in the main text, it's just dumb. It makes no sense.

Sergey source is a 2008 edition, but this odd 2nd paragraph also appears in the original 1923 Russian-language edition published in Berlin [p.122].

FAKE.

iwh *mustn't have noticed*, but its an interpolation. There is no 2nd paragraph to the footnote in the French edition [p.151]. Someone involved in the original Russian-language edition wrote it.

MORE FAKES:

I suspected there might be an issue with "каббалистическими" (kabbalistic), and the French edition proved me correct. Wilton wrote "cabalistiques" [p.151] not "kabbalistiques".

Cabala and the Kabbalah are, of course, not the same thing at all.

The 1923 Russian-language edition even has the word on the cover, so it's probably another dirty trick.

Leaving the cabalistic-not-kabbalistic issue aside—his ignorance of cabala wouldn't have led him to suspect something was wrong; Sergey's claim that Wilton "invented" symbols only shows he didn't bother checking the cited source: Count de Casteleu's book.
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"I believe that when the history of the [Great] war comes to be impartially written, the two greatest results will be the establishment of the national Jewish home and the creation of the League of Nations. The two are not really disconnected. They represent the two great ideas for which we fought and by which we conquered—the ideas of nationalism and internationalism."
- Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, March 1923.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby BRoI » Tue May 22, 2018 1:48 am

A lot of posters are claiming so-and-so was antisemitic and therefore anything they said regarding Jews was malicious and can be dismissed as "lie".

They reminded me of this story, this guy uses the same logic.
"I believe that when the history of the [Great] war comes to be impartially written, the two greatest results will be the establishment of the national Jewish home and the creation of the League of Nations. The two are not really disconnected. They represent the two great ideas for which we fought and by which we conquered—the ideas of nationalism and internationalism."
- Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, March 1923.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Balmoral95 » Tue May 22, 2018 3:16 am

BRoI wrote:A lot of posters are claiming so-and-so was antisemitic and therefore anything they said regarding Jews was malicious and can be dismissed as "lie".

They reminded me of this story, this guy uses the same logic.


Actually you have no idea what "logic" went on here, so stfu, mental midget. You're facking busted, so have the good grace to give it up, shite head.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby BRoI » Tue May 22, 2018 3:24 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
BRoI wrote:A lot of posters are claiming so-and-so was antisemitic and therefore anything they said regarding Jews was malicious and can be dismissed as "lie".

They reminded me of this story, this guy uses the same logic.


Actually you have no idea what "logic" went on here, so stfu, mental midget. You're facking busted, so have the good grace to give it up, shite head.
"I believe that when the history of the [Great] war comes to be impartially written, the two greatest results will be the establishment of the national Jewish home and the creation of the League of Nations. The two are not really disconnected. They represent the two great ideas for which we fought and by which we conquered—the ideas of nationalism and internationalism."
- Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, March 1923.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Denying-History » Tue May 22, 2018 3:28 am

What a clever come back!!!!
« Yes, that may surprise some people, including my colleagues. But have no illusions. I never compelled anybody to work for me, just as we didn't compel the German people. They themselves gave us the job to do. Why did you work with me? Now, you'll have your little throat cut...but the earth will shake when we leave the scene... »
- Joseph Goebbels

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Balmoral95 » Tue May 22, 2018 4:16 am

BRoI wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
BRoI wrote:A lot of posters are claiming so-and-so was antisemitic and therefore anything they said regarding Jews was malicious and can be dismissed as "lie".

They reminded me of this story, this guy uses the same logic.


Actually you have no idea what "logic" went on here, so stfu, mental midget. You're facking busted, so have the good grace to give it up, shite head.



Cute, sweetheart. Now turn the laptop over to your older brother, princess. Thanks

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby BRoI » Tue May 22, 2018 5:35 am

BRoI wrote:
Aaron Richards wrote:
...but I would like your input you have on the person of Robert Wilton and his infamous list that gets copy-pasted a zillion times.


People have been C&Ping it since 1921. A 1921 C&P, I consulted in the Houses of Parliament archive [...]

The then-president of the Assembly of the League of Nations said the information was reliable, according to the British Minister at the Hague, Sir Ronald William Graham.

http://www.portcullis.parliament.uk/CalmView/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=LG%2FF%2F203%2F2%2F8&pos=1


My fault. I was misremembering my own 2015 theory, but I now see the theory was wrong anyway.

The list in the Houses of Parliament archives isn't C&P from Wilton, nor is it based on Wilton [which is what I believed in 2015].

Wilton's so-called "list" was only published in the 1921 French edition, it doesn't appeared in the US [1920], UK [1920], or Russian-language [1923] editions. The IHR took it from the French edition and included it in the English editions the organisation published in the 1990s—which is the version frequently C&P.

Wilton's postscriptum in the French edition is dated 4 August 1921, whereas the list in the Houses of Parliament archive is a translation made and forwarded to London on 12 February 1921.

This list was privately passed to Sir Ronald William Graham by Herman van Karnebeek along with another document which is signed by the recently-relieved Dutch Consul in Moscow, Mr. P. J. Wap. He surely must be the source of the information contained within the list.

Here's my [blurred] photos of the list and covering letter. IIRC, there are typos in this translation [figures don't add up to totals], but the factually inaccurate claims, e.g. Lenin's Jewish mum, might be more than typos and actually appear in the original Dutch document.

Image
Image
Image

The original list should be in the Dutch National Archives in the Hague.
"I believe that when the history of the [Great] war comes to be impartially written, the two greatest results will be the establishment of the national Jewish home and the creation of the League of Nations. The two are not really disconnected. They represent the two great ideas for which we fought and by which we conquered—the ideas of nationalism and internationalism."
- Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, March 1923.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue May 22, 2018 7:31 am

BRoI wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:So according to the BRoI, when the proven antisemitic hoaxer Wilton invented the "kabbalistic" symbols used by secret Jewish societies to which the murderers belonged (the symbols, of course, having nothing to do with kabbalah in real life) and claimed that Jews murdered the Tsar and his family according to a plan as Jews, not as Bolsheviks (since he invents the fact of the "Russian" Lenin being against it) it doesn't mean ritual murder.


I don't have time to document all Sergey's clever tricks; I'll just cut to the chase.

The 2nd paragraph of the endnote, on which Sergey's relies ("symbols used by secret Jewish societies"), struck me as very odd. It not only contradicts what Wilton says in the main text, it's just dumb. It makes no sense.

Sergey source is a 2008 edition, but this odd 2nd paragraph also appears in the original 1923 Russian-language edition published in Berlin [p.122].

FAKE.

iwh *mustn't have noticed*, but its an interpolation. There is no 2nd paragraph to the footnote in the French edition [p.151]. Someone involved in the original Russian-language edition wrote it.

MORE FAKES:

I suspected there might be an issue with "каббалистическими" (kabbalistic), and the French edition proved me correct. Wilton wrote "cabalistiques" [p.151] not "kabbalistiques".

Cabala and the Kabbalah are, of course, not the same thing at all.

The 1923 Russian-language edition even has the word on the cover, so it's probably another dirty trick.

Leaving the cabalistic-not-kabbalistic issue aside—his ignorance of cabala wouldn't have led him to suspect something was wrong; Sergey's claim that Wilton "invented" symbols only shows he didn't bother checking the cited source: Count de Casteleu's book.



But you haven't shown any fakery. You have not even specified the French edition that you use. You have not shown that the footnote was not updated by Wilton himself. It thus stands.

Moreover, pointing out the word used in the French edition doesn't show that it was the original term used, unless you can show that the PS was written by him in French rather than translated from an English draft. But assuming that there is indeed a difference here, which is quite possible, it is still without distinction for the issue at hand, since the symbols are directly tied by the author (in the passage that is authentic until proven otherwise) to the "Jewish secret societies".

As for the invention, it consisted of seeing either "kabbalistic" or "cabalistic" symbols in the random doodles on the wall, obviously implying a ritual where there was none.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue May 22, 2018 7:35 am

PS: and you confirm it yourself: "Wilton's postscriptum in the French edition is dated 4 August 1921"

Whereas the PS in the Russian edition is dated Oct. 1922. Duh.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue May 22, 2018 8:17 am

BRoI wrote:
So because Trotsky (who happens to be ethnically Jewish) said it, it must be true.


No, you silly {!#%@}, not because he's a Jew but because of the evidence presented in the two articles you never looked at, and the evidence which emerged after his death that entirely supports his contention—collated on the wiki page I posted.

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html


Lololol I accidentally overlooked the fact that our sophisticated researcher posted the Plocker shite in all seriousness. What next, a random YouTube comment?

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Balmoral95 » Wed May 23, 2018 3:48 am

My fault. I was misremembering my own 2015 theory, but I now see the theory was wrong anyway.


"It was dated September... It wasn't dated at all."

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed May 23, 2018 8:16 pm

Let's sum up, shall we?

The antisemitic hoaxer Wilton (of the "let's invent some Jewish commissars" infamy[1]) claimed that Jews murdered the Tsar and his family according to a specific plan[2]. He also noted that the "Russian" Lenin was against this, thus implying that they did it as Jews, not as Bolsheviks.

Wilton invented the claim that some "cabalistic" symbols (rather than random doodles, which is the standard assumption until proven otherwise) were found at the execution place. So important were those symbols, that they were even put right on the cover of the French edition (which Brer Rabbit Decided Not To Publish™):

Wilton_Robert_Les_derniers_jours_des_Romanof[1].jpg

According to Wilton these symbols were used by secret Jewish societies[3]. Whether Wilton meant "cabalistic" symbols, that is, magic symbols in a wider sense, or "kabbalistic" symbols, that is, specifically Jewish magic/religious symbols, is not very relevant, since Wilton himself explicitly made the Jewish connection.

Wilton was also a believer in black magic and specifically connected it and certain "secret powers"/"occult powers" (puissances occultes) that were mixed up in the murder[4], so his claim should be seen in this context.

Hence Wilton basically claimed, implicitly or explicitly that Jews murdered the Tsar and his family according to their own plan[5], that the murderers left magic symbols at the execution place, which exposed them as being connected to the Jewish secret societies in Germany, thus probably to certain "secret powers"/"occult powers" that dabbled in black magic[6].

It is thus clear that Wilton's claim is about a ritual Jewish murder of the Tsar's family.

[1] Cf. his list of the People's Commissars which first appeared in the French edition, then in its Russian translation and was later added to the IHR edition.

"Вот Совет Народных Комиссаров: Ульянов (Ленин), председатель, русский; Чичерин, иностранные дела, русский [ 24 ]; Луначарский, нар. просвещение, тоже; Джугашвили, народности, грузин; Протиан, земледелие, армянин; Лурье (Ларин) экономический совет, еврей; Шлихтер, снабжение, еврей; Бронштейн (Троцкий), армия и флот, еврей; Ландер, государственный контроль, еврей; Кауфман, государственные имущества, еврей; В. Шмидт, труд, еврей; Е. Лилина (Книгиссен), народное здравие, еврейка; Шпицберг, культы, еврей; Апфельбаум (Зиновьев), внутренние дела, еврей; Анвельт, гигиена, еврей; Исидор Гуковский, финансы, еврей; Володарский, печать, еврей; Урицкий, выборы, еврей; И. Штейнберг, юстиция, еврей; Фенигштейн, беженцы, еврей; Савич и Заславский, его помощники, евреи. На 22 человека, 3 русских, 1 грузин, 1 армянин, 17 евреев."

[2] a) "Чтобы убить Романовых, русские сперва были удалены из дому; теперь их обезоруживали и держали в неведении до последней минуты. Дело ясно: русских опасались, ибо советские евреи творили еврейское дело." [In fact, most of the killers were ethnic Russians.]

This is taken from the Russian edition, see also the French one, p. 92. Not in the first English edition. Note: according to Wilton's note in the French edition he wrote the French version himself. This also explains the difference between the English and the French versions - Wilton basically rewrote the book.

b) "Дальнейшее известно: в это именно время евреи Московского Совета, следуя известным указаниям, сумели перехватить Романовых в Екатеринбурге и, в конце концов, устроить избиение всей Семьи. Но в наши дни можно считать установленным и не подлежащим никакому сомнению, что Ленин, который был вполне осведомлен о еврейском плане уничтожить всех Романовых, на него не соглашался и что германцы, участвуя в похищении Государя, тем самым взяли на себя тяжелую ответственность также и в том, чем это похищение завершилось."

Also see the French edn., pp. 148-9.

[3] "Три знака, употребляемые еврейскими тайными обществами в Германии..."

From an updated footnote from the Post scriptum dated Oct. 1922.

Obviously not in the 1921 French edition, so probably taken from a later one.

In the same footnote Wilton claims that the person who left the symbols did it with a specific intent and was closely familiar with Cabala or Kabbalah: "... из сказанного достаточно ясно, что надписи сделаны с преднамеренной целью и сделаны лицом близко знакомым с каббалистикой, и также — судя по почерку — лицом, обладающим сильным, даже жестоким характером."

A side note: Sokolov merely mentions the 4 signs without characterizing them, Diterikhs, the main "ritualist", doesn't even mention them. Hence it is indeed Wilton who can be credited with this invention.

[4] "Кажется, что в романовской трагедии, как и в некоторых других явлениях, подмеченных за время войны, но оставшихся необъясненными или обойденными молчаньем, замешаны тайные силы. Это и понятно, так как черная магия в Германии очень распространена. Но утверждают, что из всего этого получилось последствие, подобное тем, которые произошли от других тайных и бессчетных приёмов, применявшихся магами*. Избыток зла вызывает реакцию. На ядовитые газы немцев наука Союзников ответила еще более ужасными газами; на колдовство черных магов** ответили силы Добра: они, будто бы, оказали могущественное влияние в пользу союзных армий в Монсе и в иных местах. Мы уже видели, что большевизм повернул против тех, кто его породил; рано или поздно они заплатят и за опустошенную Русь, и за невинную кровь, пролитую в Екатеринбурге и по всему лицу России."

(* incorrectly translated as "mages"; should be "Germans")
(** the French version adds "d'Outre-Rhin")

Also see the French edn., pp. 151-2.

The mention of Mons refers to the legend of the Angels of Mons. Thus we see that Wilton meant all this literally.

[5] Wilton also blames the Germans for the murder, but also makes clear that the murder plan was a "Jewish plan", see fn. 2. Also cf. the English edn.: "When the German plan to restore Nicholas as a vassal sovereign had failed, and the Jewish conclave in Moscow was free to carry out its vengeful purpose..."

[6] In this respect it is interesting to note that already in the English version he twice writes of the "occult powers" of the Cheka. While it may be argued that he means the secretive nature of the organization, he also uses the phrase several times in its conventional sense: "The legend that has grown up regarding [Rasputin's] occult powers...", "Political propaganda had represented Rasputin as a monster of iniquity and occult powers...". It thus may constitute a hint about what he thought about the true nature of the Cheka.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri May 25, 2018 4:35 pm

From “Utopia in Power:”
Called the “Council of People’s Commissars,” this group seized power:
Lenin-President
Trotsky-Commissar of Foreign Affairs
Rykov-Internal Affairs
Milyutin-Agriculture
Lomov-Justice
Nogin-Commerce and Industry
Shlapnikov-Labor
Teodorovich-Food
Lunacharsky-Education
Stalin-Nationalities

I’ll check on nationalities later.
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
Adolf Hitler
Final Will and Testament

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Fri May 25, 2018 5:16 pm

First Soviet govt:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... B_1917.png

Only 1 Jew there - Trotsky.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri May 25, 2018 5:37 pm

as one rabbit or another once wrote: "not one of my better efforts"
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby BRoI » Sun May 27, 2018 1:04 am

SR quotes from Chapter 4 of the UK 1920 edition.

He must've have missed this bit:

Chapter 4: "Rasputin the peasant", Wilton org. UK edition, 1920, p.45 wrote:
It is the writer's belief that [Csarina] Alexandra was tempted to dabble a black magic ; her religious faith did not preclude knowledge of occult science, as witness her predilection for cabalistic signs, the swastika, etc.

[the swastika she is presumed to have drawn]


Here we learn what Wilton actually meant by "cabalistic" signs/symbols/characters: secret signs used by members of a particular cabal. He didn't, after all, mean *relating to the Cabala*, and he certainly didn't mean *relating to the Kabbalah of the Jews*.

The cover of the undated French translation linked by SR states "seventh ed". The 1923 Russian edition states that a 5th French edition was published in 1923.

The October 1922 *revised* postscriptum from the 1923 Russian edition doesn't appear in the 7th French edition despite the 5th being the most recent when the Russian edition was published.

The additional paragraph to the footnote that is only found in Russian editions, mentions:

- "secret Jewish societies in Germany"
The directly corresponding main-text, in both the 1923 Russian and later 7th French edition, only mentions "... the secret codes of certain societies with headquarters in Germany and whose Jewish affiliations are notorious ..."

- "three signs"
The "three signs" is an obvious reference to the letter quoted by Wilton in the first paragraph of the footnote. The letter states that three of the FOUR characters in the alleged message look similar to three symbols attributed to the "Illuminati" in Count de Casteleu's book.

The additional paragraph butchers the information Wilton had just laid out.
"The three signs used by the Jewish secret societies in Germany".
There were 4, and they were "secret codes", not "secret societies", let alone "Jewish" ones!

I haven't checked to see if any of the symbols/messages discussed by Wilton are mentioned in reports that pre-date his book and/or his visit to the Ipatiev house.

Did Wilton know enough German, and Heinrich Heine Old Testament related poetry, to have written the famous quote on the wall?

"Balthazar was, in this same night killed by his slaves"
Last edited by BRoI on Sun May 27, 2018 1:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
"I believe that when the history of the [Great] war comes to be impartially written, the two greatest results will be the establishment of the national Jewish home and the creation of the League of Nations. The two are not really disconnected. They represent the two great ideas for which we fought and by which we conquered—the ideas of nationalism and internationalism."
- Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, March 1923.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Balmoral95 » Sun May 27, 2018 1:14 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:as one rabbit or another once wrote: "not one of my better efforts"



Still not. :roll:

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sun May 27, 2018 8:19 am

> Here we learn what Wilton actually meant by "cabalistic" signs/symbols/characters: secret signs used by members of a particular cabal.

In the very citation offered by Brer Rabbit we see that the signs are explicitly related to black magic, not to any cabal.

> He didn't, after all, mean *relating to the Cabala*,

He certainly meant relating to Cabala (as in certain kind of magic in general or Kabbalah in particular).

> and he certainly didn't mean *relating to the Kabbalah of the Jews*.

This is not at all a given, given that, obviously, the kabbalistic signs could also be called "cabalistic" as a quick checking of the old books shows. It is not at all clear that the difference between the narrower and the expanded definition was clear-cut at the time. This point has been already addressed and dismissed as irrelevant anyway. In either case he refers to magic symbols used by secret Jewish societies.

> The October 1922 *revised* postscriptum from the 1923 Russian edition doesn't appear in the 7th French edition despite the 5th being the most recent when the Russian edition was published.

Point taken (assuming the glued on cover comes from the same edition), nevertheless the updated postscriptum remains. It could have been updated only for the Russian edition for all we know (we don't have to expect it to appear in the later French editions then, which would have needed to be partially re-typeset, maybe it wasn't worth the bother). Quite possibly, then, it was written by Wilton in Russian - he grew up in Russia so knew the language perfectly. It would have made sense for him to have updated the PS knowing that the new Russian edition is coming. The dating is clear.

> The additional paragraph butchers the information Wilton had just laid out.
> "The three signs used by the Jewish secret societies in Germany".
> There were 4, and they were "secret codes", not "secret societies", let alone "Jewish" ones!

No butchering is involved. Wilton merely makes it clear and explicit that he indeed thinks those were secret societies for Jews, and refers to the 3 symbols he thinks were deciphered (the fourth not having been deciphered, so he could not have written "4 symbols"). Elsewhere he states that specifically Jews murdered the Tsar family according to a vengeful plan (with the Russian Bolshevik Lenin even being against), so it makes sense that they were "communicating" with these magical symbols not with some random secret societies with some Jewish affiliations, but specifically with the Jewish societies (and it is these societies then that he also connects to black magic elsewhere). This follows from his narrative Gesamtbild.

> Did Wilton know enough German, and Heinrich Heine Old Testament related poetry, to have written the famous quote on the wall?

Nobody has alleged that he wrote anything.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby NathanC » Sun May 27, 2018 11:45 am

I just realized something.

The “excuse” of “they were just following orders/they were forced to do it” was more true for Stalin’s USSR than Nazi Germany.

Both Stalin and Hitler were dictators, but their leadership styles were different. Hitler encouraged initiative and competition in his subordinates in the SS, giving them the freedom to execute his orders and goals in the way they best saw fit. This, for example, resulted in AR. Himmler and Globocnik were resourceful- using secondhand or captured tank engines and personnel from the T4 program- to build the camps that would claim a third of the Holocaust death toll. Stalin OTOH was a micromanager and control freak. He used terror to keep both his inner circle and the rank and file in line. He also personally went through everything if he could, like the false “confessions” of his enemies. I already talked about how he sent a not too subtle threat to Kaganovich by sending him some “confessions” and a signal that he wasn’t above suspicion. Of course, the Commissars and the NKVD literally forced the Red Army to fight and hold the line at gunpoint.

So, the “Just following orders/they were made to do it” BS was more true for Stalin’s USSR than Hitler’s Germany. And yet it’s constantly being used to excuse the latter, while the former is constantly villified even though the excuse was more true for them. It must be that antisemitism again. Nazi Germany only killed all or mostly Jews, so they get a pass. The USSR was (a little bit) made up of Jews, so the excuse doesn’t hold.
Last edited by NathanC on Mon May 28, 2018 2:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sun May 27, 2018 2:46 pm

Some interesting details.

In the investigator Sergeyev's protocol from 14.08.1918 we see (see Росс Н., Гибель Царской Семьи, 1987, p. 58):

На правой от входа стене имеются сделанные карандашом надписи такого со­держания: „Николай сказал народам вот вам х.. не республика”, „Николай он ведь не Романов, а родом чухонец Род дома Романовых кончился Петром III тут пошла все чухонская порода” . Ниже этой надписи — неразборчивая подпись, похожая на „Кримников” . Правее этих надписей — две строчки, сделанные неразборчивым почерком латинскими буквами: „Belsat (zar? ) var in selbign Nacht Von schlagn Knechten umgebracht”. При осмотре эта надпись вырезана со стены.
На левой от входа стене имеется след карандашной надписи. Самая подпись оказалась вырезанной: часть обоев подрезана ножом и удалена.
На передней стене, примыкающей к косяку входной двери, карандашом изо­бражены рисунки грубо порнографического характера, представляющие фигуры мужчин и женщин с обнаженными преувеличенными половыми органами.
При дальнейшем осмотре стен, подоконника, окна и пола ничего заслужива­ющего внимания не обнаружено. На потолке никаких особенностей не заме­чается.

That is, after a detailed observation of the room, and specifically of the window area, Sergeyev did not see any cabalistic signs or numbers. It is thus entirely possible, even probable, that this -
cabala.jpg

- appeared already after the search.

(The rest of the extremely vulgar graffiti are in Sokolov's protocol from 15-25.04.1919, ibid., pp. 314ff. The "cabalistic" signs and numbers are described as follows (p. 316):

д. На самом краю подоконника чернилами черного цвета, весьма толстыми линиями сделаны одна под другой три надписи: „24678 ру. года”, „1918 года”, „148467878 р”, а вблизи их написано такими же чернилами и тем же почерком: „87888” .
е. В расстоянии полувершка от этих надписей на обоях стены такими же чер­нилами и такими же черными линиями написаны какие-то знаки, имеющие следую­щий вид:").
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Balmoral95 » Mon May 28, 2018 4:36 am

BRoI wrote:SR quotes from Chapter 4 of the UK 1920 edition.

He must've have missed this bit:

Chapter 4: "Rasputin the peasant", Wilton org. UK edition, 1920, p.45 wrote:
It is the writer's belief that [Csarina] Alexandra was tempted to dabble a black magic ; her religious faith did not preclude knowledge of occult science, as witness her predilection for cabalistic signs, the swastika, etc.

[the swastika she is presumed to have drawn]


Here we learn what Wilton actually meant by "cabalistic" signs/symbols/characters: secret signs used by members of a particular cabal. He didn't, after all, mean *relating to the Cabala*, and he certainly didn't mean *relating to the Kabbalah of the Jews*.

The cover of the undated French translation linked by SR states "seventh ed". The 1923 Russian edition states that a 5th French edition was published in 1923.

The October 1922 *revised* postscriptum from the 1923 Russian edition doesn't appear in the 7th French edition despite the 5th being the most recent when the Russian edition was published.

The additional paragraph to the footnote that is only found in Russian editions, mentions:

- "secret Jewish societies in Germany"
The directly corresponding main-text, in both the 1923 Russian and later 7th French edition, only mentions "... the secret codes of certain societies with headquarters in Germany and whose Jewish affiliations are notorious ..."

- "three signs"
The "three signs" is an obvious reference to the letter quoted by Wilton in the first paragraph of the footnote. The letter states that three of the FOUR characters in the alleged message look similar to three symbols attributed to the "Illuminati" in Count de Casteleu's book.

The additional paragraph butchers the information Wilton had just laid out.
"The three signs used by the Jewish secret societies in Germany".
There were 4, and they were "secret codes", not "secret societies", let alone "Jewish" ones!

I haven't checked to see if any of the symbols/messages discussed by Wilton are mentioned in reports that pre-date his book and/or his visit to the Ipatiev house.

Did Wilton know enough German, and Heinrich Heine Old Testament related poetry, to have written the famous quote on the wall?

"Balthazar was, in this same night killed by his slaves"


Yawn. Any time you'd like to STFU and listen, you might learn something. The constant stream of verbal diarrhea based on innate anti-semitism, lack of familiarity with subject matter, poor research skills, and a propensity for untruth has really gotten old.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby NathanC » Tue May 29, 2018 1:49 am

NathanC wrote:
Genrikh Yagoda

Yagoda was really a nobody. He got his leadership position at the OGPU/NKVD because his predecessor Mezysnsky would get ill and later die. Stalin didn't trust him because of this; he would go around Yagoda's back and install one of "his" men in the OGPU. This was Efim Yevdokimov, a Non Jewish true believer and a Stalin loyalist who had actually actually helped Stalin arrange a show trial for one of his enemies in 1928 (Strange how no one talks about that), which earned him Stalin's favor and several orders of the Red Banner. Yevdokimov would serve as a counterweight to Yagoda and would be Stalin's "real" representative and insurance in the OGPU. Anything Yagoda did would also involve Yevdokimov by necessity, and Yevdokimov would use his position to spread rumors that would eventually undermine Yagoda. This would pressure Yagoda to "prove" his usefulness and loyalty, which was no doubt a factor in his execution of Kamanev and Zinoviev. It didn't help though: Stalin would tend to work around Yagoda by ensuing that "his" men would always be there: Yevdokimov, Redens, Balytsky and later Yezhov. Yagoda would later be purged, and it would come out that Yagoda didn't have a pre-revolutionary background, which really didn't help his case. In his "confession", he would admit that he was never "a real Bolshevik" and always walked around wearing masks.

Conclusion
Yagoda was without any doubt an awful, awful person. Painting him as the "power behind the throne" doesn't hold water though. Stalin never liked him and gave the really important stuff to those he could really count on and "liked": Mezynsnsky, Yevdokimov, Redens, Balytsky, etc. Yagoda was a nobody who got his position through sheer luck and had to work extra hard to prove to Stalin et al that he could be counted on. Claiming that Jews "dominated" the USSR because Yagoda was in a high ranking position that he didn't earn or get because of his "Jewishness", and one that was slowly subverted from under him by Stalin's real (non Jewish) loyalists, is idiotic. Yagoda was a bad man and totally deserved what he got, but his role is exaggerated and doesn't prove anything about either Jewish people or the USSR.


I can't believe I missed it before. Kotkin actually explains that, prior to Yagoda's promotion, it came out that Stalin had reason to believe he was in favor of Kamanev, his enemy. This was because Kamanev took "notes" about a conversation he had with Bukharin, in which the latter claimed that "Yagoda and Trilisser" were with them. Whether this was true or not, it's clear that Yagoda was absolutely not Stalin's "most trusted henchmen" because of this suspicion, and that this suspicion would lead Stalin to put the (Non Jewish) people that he really trusted in key positions in the OGPU, such as the already mentioned and much more significant but ignored (non Jewish) Yevdokimov. This would all of course end up in Yagoda's downfall.

Regardless of where he came from, Yagoda was a nobody. As much of an awful person he was, his role in the greater scheme of things was exaggerated.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Denying-History » Tue May 29, 2018 4:16 pm

NathanC wrote:
NathanC wrote:
Genrikh Yagoda

Yagoda was really a nobody. He got his leadership position at the OGPU/NKVD because his predecessor Mezysnsky would get ill and later die. Stalin didn't trust him because of this; he would go around Yagoda's back and install one of "his" men in the OGPU. This was Efim Yevdokimov, a Non Jewish true believer and a Stalin loyalist who had actually actually helped Stalin arrange a show trial for one of his enemies in 1928 (Strange how no one talks about that), which earned him Stalin's favor and several orders of the Red Banner. Yevdokimov would serve as a counterweight to Yagoda and would be Stalin's "real" representative and insurance in the OGPU. Anything Yagoda did would also involve Yevdokimov by necessity, and Yevdokimov would use his position to spread rumors that would eventually undermine Yagoda. This would pressure Yagoda to "prove" his usefulness and loyalty, which was no doubt a factor in his execution of Kamanev and Zinoviev. It didn't help though: Stalin would tend to work around Yagoda by ensuing that "his" men would always be there: Yevdokimov, Redens, Balytsky and later Yezhov. Yagoda would later be purged, and it would come out that Yagoda didn't have a pre-revolutionary background, which really didn't help his case. In his "confession", he would admit that he was never "a real Bolshevik" and always walked around wearing masks.

Conclusion
Yagoda was without any doubt an awful, awful person. Painting him as the "power behind the throne" doesn't hold water though. Stalin never liked him and gave the really important stuff to those he could really count on and "liked": Mezynsnsky, Yevdokimov, Redens, Balytsky, etc. Yagoda was a nobody who got his position through sheer luck and had to work extra hard to prove to Stalin et al that he could be counted on. Claiming that Jews "dominated" the USSR because Yagoda was in a high ranking position that he didn't earn or get because of his "Jewishness", and one that was slowly subverted from under him by Stalin's real (non Jewish) loyalists, is idiotic. Yagoda was a bad man and totally deserved what he got, but his role is exaggerated and doesn't prove anything about either Jewish people or the USSR.


I can't believe I missed it before. Kotkin actually explains that, prior to Yagoda's promotion, it came out that Stalin had reason to believe he was in favor of Kamanev, his enemy. This was because Kamanev took "notes" about a conversation he had with Bukharin, in which the latter claimed that "Yagoda and Trilisser" were with them. Whether this was true or not, it's clear that Yagoda was absolutely not Stalin's "most trusted henchmen" because of this suspicion, and that this suspicion would lead Stalin to put the (Non Jewish) people that he really trusted in key positions in the OGPU, such as the already mentioned and much more significant but ignored (non Jewish) Yevdokimov. This would all of course end up in Yagoda's downfall.

Regardless of where he came from, Yagoda was a nobody. As much of an awful person he was, his role in the greater scheme of things was exaggerated.


Hmmm no page numbers? Or chapter? :?

Yagoda's reputation wasn't that good in the later years. He pretty much had come to serve his use, although I feel I should check Kotkins sources. Thurston in Life and Terror talks about a report from Almazov found in the Hoover Institution archives that "cannot be confirmed elsewhere". (p.34) On the same page Thurston points also to the same conclusion as Getty of Yagoda loosing favor with Stalin.
« Yes, that may surprise some people, including my colleagues. But have no illusions. I never compelled anybody to work for me, just as we didn't compel the German people. They themselves gave us the job to do. Why did you work with me? Now, you'll have your little throat cut...but the earth will shake when we leave the scene... »
- Joseph Goebbels

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby NathanC » Tue May 29, 2018 10:00 pm

Denying-History wrote:
NathanC wrote:
NathanC wrote:
Genrikh Yagoda

Yagoda was really a nobody. He got his leadership position at the OGPU/NKVD because his predecessor Mezysnsky would get ill and later die. Stalin didn't trust him because of this; he would go around Yagoda's back and install one of "his" men in the OGPU. This was Efim Yevdokimov, a Non Jewish true believer and a Stalin loyalist who had actually actually helped Stalin arrange a show trial for one of his enemies in 1928 (Strange how no one talks about that), which earned him Stalin's favor and several orders of the Red Banner. Yevdokimov would serve as a counterweight to Yagoda and would be Stalin's "real" representative and insurance in the OGPU. Anything Yagoda did would also involve Yevdokimov by necessity, and Yevdokimov would use his position to spread rumors that would eventually undermine Yagoda. This would pressure Yagoda to "prove" his usefulness and loyalty, which was no doubt a factor in his execution of Kamanev and Zinoviev. It didn't help though: Stalin would tend to work around Yagoda by ensuing that "his" men would always be there: Yevdokimov, Redens, Balytsky and later Yezhov. Yagoda would later be purged, and it would come out that Yagoda didn't have a pre-revolutionary background, which really didn't help his case. In his "confession", he would admit that he was never "a real Bolshevik" and always walked around wearing masks.

Conclusion
Yagoda was without any doubt an awful, awful person. Painting him as the "power behind the throne" doesn't hold water though. Stalin never liked him and gave the really important stuff to those he could really count on and "liked": Mezynsnsky, Yevdokimov, Redens, Balytsky, etc. Yagoda was a nobody who got his position through sheer luck and had to work extra hard to prove to Stalin et al that he could be counted on. Claiming that Jews "dominated" the USSR because Yagoda was in a high ranking position that he didn't earn or get because of his "Jewishness", and one that was slowly subverted from under him by Stalin's real (non Jewish) loyalists, is idiotic. Yagoda was a bad man and totally deserved what he got, but his role is exaggerated and doesn't prove anything about either Jewish people or the USSR.


I can't believe I missed it before. Kotkin actually explains that, prior to Yagoda's promotion, it came out that Stalin had reason to believe he was in favor of Kamanev, his enemy. This was because Kamanev took "notes" about a conversation he had with Bukharin, in which the latter claimed that "Yagoda and Trilisser" were with them. Whether this was true or not, it's clear that Yagoda was absolutely not Stalin's "most trusted henchmen" because of this suspicion, and that this suspicion would lead Stalin to put the (Non Jewish) people that he really trusted in key positions in the OGPU, such as the already mentioned and much more significant but ignored (non Jewish) Yevdokimov. This would all of course end up in Yagoda's downfall.

Regardless of where he came from, Yagoda was a nobody. As much of an awful person he was, his role in the greater scheme of things was exaggerated.


Hmmm no page numbers? Or chapter? :?

Yagoda's reputation wasn't that good in the later years. He pretty much had come to serve his use, although I feel I should check Kotkins sources. Thurston in Life and Terror talks about a report from Almazov found in the Hoover Institution archives that "cannot be confirmed elsewhere". (p.34) On the same page Thurston points also to the same conclusion as Getty of Yagoda loosing favor with Stalin.


Page 22. "Tight Leash". 2nd Volume of Kotkin (Waiting for Hitler)

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed May 30, 2018 2:04 am

title forthcoming later this year: Paul Hanebrink, A Specter Haunting Europe: The Myth of Judeo-Bolshevism (2018)
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed May 30, 2018 2:15 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:title forthcoming later this year: Paul Hanebrink, A Specter Haunting Europe: The Myth of Judeo-Bolshevism (2018)



I saw that. I need to add that.
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Final Will and Testament

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby NathanC » Wed May 30, 2018 2:38 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:title forthcoming later this year: Paul Hanebrink, A Specter Haunting Europe: The Myth of Judeo-Bolshevism (2018)


Sounds like fun

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby iwh » Wed May 30, 2018 12:01 pm

November here in the UK.

I have a feeling it could be a good resource.
For a debunking of new boy on the block John Wear see:

https://wearswarts.wordpress.com

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed May 30, 2018 2:14 pm

5 November here, too.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed May 30, 2018 11:03 pm

I’m adding it to the books I want to get for the New Year.

Sigh. I’ll never catch up.... :D
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Final Will and Testament

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby NathanC » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:42 am

So, for more details on Yagoda the complete nobody.

Donald Rayfield (Stalin and his Hangmen) points out that Yagoda went out not with a bang, but with a whimper. Only 3 random places - a railway bridge, a training school and a commune, in the USSR were named after him, and he only made one publication about a canal he helped build. This was nothing compared to Trotsky and Zinoviev, who had dozens of towns named after them and wrote and published several books. This was especially nothing compared to Yezhov, whom Stalin actually liked. According to Oleg Khlevniuk, Yezhov received loads of awards and had entire cities, factories and collective farms named after him.

Yagoda was a nobody.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:15 pm

Uh-oh, Putin is a crypto. This means deniers can’t like him anymore.
https://lorddreadnought.livejournal.com/3483.html

Seriously, got that from someone on Twitter.

:rotfl:
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
Adolf Hitler
Final Will and Testament

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Balmoral95 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:44 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Uh-oh, Putin is a crypto. This means deniers can’t like him anymore.
https://lorddreadnought.livejournal.com/3483.html

Seriously, got that from someone on Twitter.

:rotfl:


>"Just look at Putin’s face and ears closely; he is no more a Christian than Benjamin Netanyahu."

Ahem:

https://codoh.com/news/1422/

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:06 am

LOL
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:05 am

Anyone have Boris Brasol's Judaism and Bolshevism? I read that he liked to milk the alleged Jewish-Bolshie stats for whatever it was worth. Could be a source of some figures.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:25 pm

I am now almost sure that it was Brasol who fabricated the commissars list and the others. It could have appeared in Judaism and Bolshevism and/or in Who Rules Russia.

An interesting article on the guy: http://jsantisemitism.org/site/wp-conte ... tenant.pdf

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:08 pm


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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:13 am

I just....can’t stop laughing.
:rotfl:
A Twitter denier sent me to this link to prove that Stalin was a Jew:
https://www.ancient-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=16
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
Adolf Hitler
Final Will and Testament

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:48 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I just....can’t stop laughing.
:rotfl:
A Twitter denier sent me to this link to prove that Stalin was a Jew:
https://www.ancient-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=16

Everyone is a Jew.


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