refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

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refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:32 pm

This is a canard (blood libel?) that props up time and time again in radical right wing publications. It is occasionally used to justify the Einsatzgruppen killings of 41'.

Some points on this fallacy.

1. All of the leading Jewish members of the Russian Revolution were hardcore antitheist atheists. Without exception. And unlike most atheist Jews (like Milton Freidman or Geddy Lee) they utterly rejected the Jewish culture and the Jewish identity as well. So in essence they were former Jews who did not think of themselves as Jewish anymore. Trotsky even stated "I am not a Jew, I am an internationalist." Communism was their religion and they should be viewed through that lenses. In essence they were about as Jewish as Hitler, Himmler, Globocnik, and Eichmann were Catholic.

2. Jews suffered terribly under the Romanovs and it is only logical that radicalism be prominent in secular Jewish culture at the time. And this radicalism mostly took the form of Zionism or more moderate forms of communism. The Bolshevik Party was the choice for a minority who were willing to reject their religion and culture and embrace borderless international proletarianisim.

3. Yes the Bolsheviks did enforce a ban on anti-Semitism, but it was in the context of general discouragement on ethnic divisions in light of their new ideology. This was not a pro-Jewish measure so much as it was a reversal of one of the defining attributes of the overthrown government for it's own sake.

4. They also worked to combat Zionism and Judaism, seeking the assimilation of Jews into the masses. The Jewish wing of the party (the Yevsektstra) was tasked with anhilating Judaism and combating Zionist groups, the members of whom either jumped ship or emigrated. Tell me Moonbats, what kind of "ewvil joosish dicktatership" bans Zionism and the Jewish religion?

5. No one can deny the suffering caused by socialism, or the role played by the deplorable Genrikh Yogoda. However these were not crimes carried out by Jews against Christians motivated by religious hatred (as David Duke will have you believe), but crimes carried out by atheists (like Yogoda, who was emphatically atheist) against perceived enemies of their creed. And even then, Yogoda and his minions were operating under the orders of Lenin and later Stalin (both gentiles). The responsibility for the Holodomar lies solely with Stalin. Anyway, Yogoda was purged by Stalin a few years later and replaced by Yhezov, and later Beria (both gentiles)

6. The average victim of the holocaust was not communist. A huge proportion of them were poor, rural religious Jews from Poland who would have detested communism.

7. And all of this is a moot point because by the time the war started the Old Bolsheviks (a significant percentage of which were ex-Jews) had been entirely killed off by Stalin and the Communist party was essentially purged of Jews with few exceptions (one of them being Lazar Kagovich, a fanatical Stalinist who was spared for his slavish loyalty). The NKDV by that point was only 4% Jewish, and all of those were not "Jews" in any traditional sense of the word.
All those Nazi rantings about "Judeo-Bolshevisim" in the lead up to Operation Barbarossa were pure horseshit. It would have been horseshit twenty years before when there actually HAD been ethnic Jews in the Communist leadership, but in 1941 it was especially absurd.

8. Karl Marx was baptized Lutheran and made disparaging remarks about "bourgeois Jewish Capitalism" at least once.

Anyone have anything else to add? Anything at all would be good. This may not be explicitly connected to the Holocaust but many use it to trivialize The Holocaust or even justify it.
Last edited by Jeff_36 on Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Balsamo » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:39 am

I'll be back tomorrow... :D

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:56 am

Balsamo wrote:I'll be back tomorrow... :D

Interesting topic with a lot to be said - tomorrow is optimistic for me! LOL, good topic
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:22 am

Ok guys, I have autocorrect so some words are {!#%@} up.

Animating = ANHILATING

Of = Or

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby iwh » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:15 am

Nazi apologists who spout the "Jews were responsible for EVERYTHING in Bolshevik Russia" mantra love to quote Solzhenitsyn. The key source tends to be "200 Hundred Years Together". Up until a few years ago it was unavailable in English (wink, wink...we all know why :roll: ) but many bits were quoted from it.

2 sections however, were never quoted: Chapter 21 (in my French edition) about the German invasion of the USSR and the mass murders carried out on Jews, and the little section on who was actually responsible for the 1917 Revolution. Allow me to translate from my copy, p 80 (If David wants to see the original and translate for himself, then I am quite happy to oblige ;) )

I must state this quite clearly: the October Putsch was not driven by the Jews (with the exception of the glorious Trotski and the young and dynamic Grigori Tchoudnovski who took an active role in the arrests of members of the provisional government and in the repression of the defenders of the Winter Palace). Those who stated that it was impossible for a country of 170 million people to be forced into Bolshevism by a small minority of Jews were not wrong. It is true: in 1917 it is we ourselves who sealed our own destiny, it's our own stupidity - from the beginning in February until October-December.


Solzhenitsyn goes on to state that most Jews opposed Bolshevism at that time and many were defenders at the Winter Palace.

It appears that many Jews, especially young Jews, readily joined the new Bolshevik system post 1917 because for the first time in Jewish history a Russian government system allowed them to take an active role in that system. (p88)
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:19 pm

Jeff,

Not a simple topic . . . here goes, bear with me:

I think you’re right. The charge of Jewish-Communism (żydokomuna) is a particularly pernicious piece of the anti-Semitic myth - a repugnant calumny against Jews (Jews identified with Communism) meant to justify discrimination, reprisals, executions, and ultimately mass murder; it is meant as one basis for why actions had to be taken against the Jews and why those actions had to be radical. The myth disregards reality and tries depicting Jews as a whole as a dangerous enemy of nations and people, a group to be combated. Its aim is to justify and rally attacks against Jews.

Particularly despicable is how the charge depicts a minority without significant power as an internationally organized, oppressive, powerful enemy of nearly everyone. This is the sewer deniers live in and how they try apologizing for Nazi ethnic cleansing and ultimately mass murder: for example, a few years ago a denier asked about German Jews “if there really is an alien body at the levers of power, how do you go about removing them?” And in sync with the sentiment behind this question, more recently another denier wrote that "the Germans had ample justifiable cause to oppose a minority within their society who worked AGAINST their county's interests.” In neither case, I shouldn’t have to add, could the denier offer any substantiation for the charge made against German Jews. Connecting Stalinist Communism to this image of an alien, parasitical enemy - working in its own interests against the people’s - is meant to put Jews outside human communities and rational discourse and make them a justifiable target for almost anything, well, “radical measures.”

There is a lot more to say about all this. For starters, I will give some observations on 4 issues - what constituted the myth, what charges did it make; what was the role of Jews within Russian and later Soviet Bolshevism; what about German Communism and German Jews; and what about the charge that the Jews collaborated with the Soviets during the period of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

What was the myth of Jewish-Bolshevism?

The Jewish-Communist charge formed an important component of interwar anti-Semitism - the charge is anti-Semitic through and through. It was an element of interethnic stereotyping in eastern Europe; for radical and politicized anti-Semites, the charge served as weapons in their ideological and propaganda arsenal. The Nazis used the charge as both a rallying cry and justification for their stance on the “Jewish question”; nationalists and anti-Semites during the period and subsequently have picked up on elements of the mythology.

There are even today those who try exploiting żydokomuna (I’ll refer to some of this below) and refurbishing the concept as an analytical tool: in my view, these efforts have as much intellectual substance and credibility as would an attempt to utilize Klan doctrine to understand inter-race relations and immigration in the contemporary US: zero. Equally as repugnant is the usage of the concept by deniers to minimize, excuse, rationalize and obfuscate what the Nazis did across Europe, especially in the East, in the ‘40s.

During the 1930s and 1940s, the myth was layered and complex, including at least the following terms in its strong form, with weaker forms of the myth trading in elements of this composite:

- Jews were rootless “guests” in “host” countries, an alien and disloyal presence
- Jews were parasitical, living off the healthy efforts of their host countries
- Jews formed an international conspiracy which used various means to advance its interests
- in the economy, Jews shunned honest, physical work; lived off the labor of others; and had gained control through their roles in banking and finance capital in general, Jews controlled key parts of national economies
- nations and the spirit were undermined by materialist, modernist tendencies (democracy, liberalism, socialism, capitalism, rationalism, materialism, radicalism, urbanization, etc) - and Jews were prominent in all these tendencies, using them to destroy the people, nations, and spiritual greatness
- Jews were the antithesis of the nation and hostile to their “host” countries, forming as they did an international conspiracy and menace
- a Jewish mission, encapsulated in the Jewish slogan “the chosen people,” existed and reached across the world, giving Jews a common purpose to rule the world for their gain
- Jewish tactics were inherently dishonest and utilized camouflage, divide and conquer, deception, and ruthless tactics to destroy opposition to their world mission
- Jews posed as champions of the laborers and diverted workers from their national mission in order to use them as a kind of shock troop against the nation and to protect Jewish capital and rule (the dictatorship of the proletariat is the dictatorship of the Jews; the Communist International is one element of the Jewish International helping Jews rule the world)
- the Jews were identified in particular not only as radicals and socialists (which came in many guises, including moderate and democratic forms) but as drivers and supporters of Soviet Bolshevism and the international Communist movement
- therefore: when it comes to this enemy, anything goes . . . (e.g., later the Nazis' later putting in abeyance all of international law "preemptively" for its war of two ideologies and clashing systems in the East)

The National Socialists added a racial charge to this conception, but in eastern Europe the concept of Jewish-Communism often emerged from religious ideas or from economic competition, cultural difference, and political currents. In many ways Jews in eastern Europe lived in communities separate from and at a distance from their neighbors; patterns were changing, but on the other hand the ‘20s and ‘30s were a period of vigorous national assertion, a movement which generally left Jews out. The legacy of ethnic difference in the eastern European “shatter zone,” coupled with national striving, could lead to mutual mistrust and even antagonism; such gaps among Jews and Poles, Jews and Lithuanians, and so forth helped form the picture of żydokomuna, which was one of many elements of the mutual misunderstanding between some (not all) ethnic communities during the interwar years. The strong, Nazified concept of Jewish-Communism reduced a complex history - in which Jews were an ethnic group part of and caught in the middle of ethnic and national competition and confrontation - to a morality tale in which Jews played the demon’s part, in Nazi eschatology the pivot point of history. The Nazis exploited feelings of Poles, Ukrainians, Lithuanians, and others, and used the myth to stake their claim to leadership and to some extent neutralize the national movements that could threaten Germany in the East. At the same time, Jewish-Bolshevism isn’t reducible to a ploy or pitch; it was a core component of the National Socialist world-view, not only a propaganda mechanism.

Charges like those made in the myth of Jewish-Communism are immune to reason - the myth is made of basic assumptions that prove themselves and form a frame for viewing the world and groups in it, regardless of the empirical reality. Multitudes of individuals, with complex and variegated experiences, outlooks, and interests, become unitary groups. In keeping with their starting anti-Semitic premise, believers in Jewish-Communism trample the agency of the Jews themselves, whose real lives had little in common with how the myth portrayed them; quite the opposite, most Jews felt no affinity for what they were charged as being and seeking. The post-hoc fallacy is hyper-active in this kind of thinking as is cherry-picking, in which decontextualized factoids and data points are used retrospectively to prove the starting position. Also in overdrive is a kind of “social metonymy,” in which what some members of a community undertake is made to stand for its whole.

What was the situation with Bolshevism, first and foremost in Russia?

In eastern Europe, minorities in general (not just Jews) were overrepresented in Communist parties, yet we do not have a “myth of “Belokomuna” or “Ukokomuna,” e.g. Interestingly, this phenomenon was present amongst mainly Slavic minorities and holds true among Ukrainians in Polish areas as well.

Also, Jewish participation in Communist movements across Europe was quite varied, a fact that undermines any argument deniers or anti-Semites wish to make about some general connection or “international Judeo-Bolshevik” presence. Where Jews were active in Communism, there was a bit of a pattern - evident in the USSR and elsewhere - of initial sizable Jewish participation in early Communist movements and governments, which then diminished as the Russians, Poles, Lithuanians, etc pushed Jews aside when their regimes were established.

The roots of the calumny are the marriage of anti-Semitic tropes to the growth of socialist and other protest and opposition movements. Various brands of populism and socialism were attractive to Jews in Russia because they promised to confront the oppression and poverty of the tsarist period (lack of rights, pogroms, economic restrictions); the narodniki (populists) and socialists proved themselves by fighting the tsar, attracting a range of adherents, many of them Jews. Many participants in these movements were of democratic inclination, some, of course, were not.

In Russia, Jews supported a variety of opposition parties (and, let’s be clear, opposing the tsars was not a bad but a good thing); they didn’t make up much of the rank and file of the early Bolshevik party but were considerably overrepresented in leadership positions. In the late teens, at the apex, of the 7 leaders of the Bolsheviks, 3 were Jews, one was half Jewish, and 3 were not Jews. None of these men was observant; all saw themselves as Communist activists first and foremost and lacked ties to the Jewish communities of Russia.

Furthermore, by the mid-‘20s, Trotsky, Zinoviev, and Sokolnikov (the three Jews among the top leaders) were no longer, to put it mildly, in leadership roles, nor was Kamenev (who was half Jewish) - in fact, Stalin had Trotsky, Zinoviev, and Kamenev murdered. It should also be noted that prior to the Revolution, Jews didn’t gravitate toward the Bolsheviks; Jews of socialist leaning supported the Bund, the Mensheviks, and the labor Zionists. At the time, the proportion of Jews in the Bolshevik Party was less than their % of the population. Many Jews supported the Bund, a Jewish labor party opposed to the Bolsheviks. Jews were also prominent among the SR's and the Mensheviks, also opponents of the Bolsheviks.

It was during the revolutionary period, including the civil war, that socialist Jews and others shifted toward supporting the Bolsheviks, as with some Bundists (below), probably stimulated by the Bolsheviks’ endurance and by the anti-Jewish actions of the Whites, who propagated the Jewish-Bolshevik myth. Among the victims of the Petlyura pogroms were many anti-Communist Jews in the Ukraine, in fact. If the Red Scare reached even the US, resulting in panicked abandonment of the First Amendment during the immediate postwar period, it caused greater fear in Europe - and led to deeper concepts and reactions.

Still, by the early ‘20s, only about 5% of Party members were Jews (this was only about 20,000 people in all of Russia). The Communists subsequently conducted strong campaigns against anti-Semitism and opened doors to Jews - David Shneer’s book on Jewish photographers and journalists during this period is interesting in that it makes the case that professional and career aspirations of many young Jews led to roles in emerging job categories in the government and economy. Jews were mostly urban and many had good education, making them candidates for such roles - and in the new state of things in the USSR could take advantage of opportunity for upward mobility.

Some leading Bundists joined the CPSU after the Revolution and were organized into Yiddish-speaking sections. In the purges of the 1930s, Stalin had these sections done away with and purged Bundists along with many others, as is well known. Zionism was not permitted under Stalinism - IIRC it was deemed a right wing deviation, essentially bourgeois nationalism. Generally, in Russia and then the USSR, the Jewish Socialists, or Bundists, had a troubled relationship to the Communists, with one of their most prominent leaders, Mikhail Liber, dying in Stalin's purges of the '30s.

By the 1930s Jews made up about 2% of the Soviet population and 4% of the CPSU rank and file. Through the ’30s and ‘40s, Kaganovich was the lone Jew who remained on the Politburo. However, through the ‘30s at least Jewish membership was considerable on the party’s Central Committee and among ministers and deputy ministers of the Soviet government. At the same time, Latvians, Georgians, and Armenians were also overrepresented in the Party and state - including Cheka and Red Army. Jews made up an even higher % of officials in Party and state organizations than their representation in the rank and file - again probably tied in part to urbanization and education among Jews. But Jews stood out because their playing such roles was new - so people noticed and their presence could be exaggerated.

The purges and show trials of the 1930s targeted the Old Guard - and many of the Old Guard were Jews. This resulted in further diminishing Jewish participation in the Party and state. As an aside, the Nazis were not capable observers of trends in the USSR, by the 1930s many arguing that, despite the changes taking place in the Soviet Union, Kaganovich was the Jewish power behind Stalin on behalf of the Jews. “Sovietologists” in the Nazi Party and Third Reich read every event in USSR as confirmation of precepts: the issue was racial at heart, and CPSU political or economic doctrine was nothing more than the vehicle for Jewish rule and racial war. The Nazi narrative of Soviet history was thus repeated versions of the same - the power of the Jews, now more visible, now less visible, ruling through Stalin and the Party. Even as the Stalinists made moves to push “the Jewish element” into the background, Nazi observers saw Jewish machinations. At most, the typical Slav Stalin would find himself bested by the powerful forces of Jewry.

As you noted and as I mentioned above, Jewish Communists acted as Communists, not as representatives of world-wide Judaism, which the myth charges. By far, most Jews, as we’ve seen, were not Communists, and by far most Communists were not Jews. All of which is pretty tangential to events in Germany and Poland, for example. The CPSU did blunt some of the concerns many Jews had about the Communist movement with its demolition of the tsars, its campaigns against antisemitism - arguing that campaigning against racial hatred is a bad thing only gives away deniers’ agenda by the war, and by opening the doors to Jewish professionals; at the same time, internationalism and atheism were not exactly comfortable propositions for the Jewish masses, especially the faithful. To reinforce this last point, the Communists took over most houses of worship and converted them into offices, community centers, meeting halls, and the like; this applied to synagogues and churches - religion in general was a target of the Bolsheviks (which runs counter to another denier myth that the Communists demolished all the churches whilst Jews worshipped unmolested under the Soviets).

The claim that Soviet power = Jewish power after all this just makes no sense, not as a viable analytical concept.

What about Poland, where the myth had legs, so to speak?

No matter how you play it, most Jews in eastern Europe were not Communists and not very favorable toward Communism. Just think, for example, of the welter of political parties in Poland during the interwar year and where the bulk of the Jewish population lined up. Also, in eastern Europe orthodoxy and the Hasidic movement were very popular in the shtetls. To the embarrassment of assimilated Jews in cities like Warsaw or Lodz.

Nevertheless, the myth of żydokomuna was strong in Poland in the interwar years, so a look at Poland would be helpful. In the 1922 elections in Poland, the Jewish vote went overwhelmingly to small Jewish parties, some of them left-wing; however, the Communists themselves got under 5% of the Jewish vote. In the 1928 elections, the results were very different: the pro-government bloc now received about 50% of the Jewish vote, with the small Jewish parties garnering about 1/3. The last democratic elections in Poland before the war were the local elections of 1938, in which the Jewish voting pattern reverted to that of 1922, with the Bund and small Jewish parties splitting the vote, but the conservative Jewish party Agudas Yisroel also receiving substantial support. A general myth of Jewish disloyalty could be based on results like these, even though in the ‘20s Jews were more pro-government in their voting behavior than were Polish Catholic, these 1938 results were in local elections, and Jewish support for Jewish parties came at a time of growing anti-Semitism and threats to Jews as Jews. In any event, Polish elections through this period don’t show strong Jewish support for radical parties, especially the pro-Soviet left.

Below I want to get into the ’39-’41 period, which really reinforced the charge of żydokomuna as relates to supposed Jewish solidarity and identity with the Soviet occupiers which, it is alleged, provoked retaliation against the Jewish-Communists. A couple notes first: Grabowski documents that even in Dabrowa Tarnowska county, which lay in the part of Poland never occupied by the Soviets, well west of the border between the Soviet and German zones, executions of Jews were on occasion justified for the stated reason, e.g., that the Jews “are usually communists.” Such incidents show an underlying perception or orientation that existed independently of the events of the ’39-’41 period, as, of course, does the existence of the myth during the pre-war period in Poland. I also want to quote from a paper by Hanna Świda-Ziemba, which speaks to a point made above: “only a few Jews became Communists. And in becoming Communists, they broke with Judaism, with their community, so that for themselves and for the Jews they ceased to be Jewish. The Soviet government repressed whole masses of Jews, and he majority of them accepted neither the Soviet ideology nor the Soviet system. . . . There were Polish Communists as well as Jewish Communists, after all. There were also in our former territories Belarussian, Lithuanian, and even Ukrainian Communists. So where did the myth of żydokomuna come from?” I added the italics to stress a point not usually made in this debate. Quote from Polonsky & Michlic, The Neighbors Respond, p 109. There’s a whole literature debating the question - with Polish writers around the Institute for National Remembrance continuing to advance the żydokomuna claim - along with other nationalist claims - in the Polish context.

What did the Nazis face in Germany?

How strong was the support of German Jews for the KPD? The situation in Germany was very different from what obtained in eastern Europe; in fact, to some extent German Jews shared some general prejudices toward the Ostjuden, Jews from the east. The self-conception of German Jews was, by far, loyal to Germany and liberal, neither radical socialist nor Zionist. In the late 1920s, the KPD had fewer than 150,000 members of whom about 1,000 (less than 1%) were Jews, roughly mirroring the Jewish % of Germany’s population. Leadership of the KPD was very different from the post-war years, when Rosa Luxemburg (born in Zamosc in Poland, e.g.) had been exhibit #1 for the identity of far left and Jews. During the ‘20s and early ’30s, when Communists and brown-shirts were having at each other in Red Wedding and elsewhere in Germany, there was but a lone Jew in the KPD top leadership, and there was a single Jew in the KPD Reichstag delegation - and in 1933 on the eve of the seizure of power, there were no Jews in the KPD’s Reichstag group.

Distinctively middle class, if tenuously so, and mostly assimilationist, Germany's Jews did not vote in large numbers for the KPD - or even the SPD before the Great Depression; before 1930, that is, during the supposed oppression of Germany by the Weimar government, Jewish votes tended to go to the DDP or the DV, distinctly “bourgeois” parties. Under the polarization of the depression years, the Jewish vote shifted, with historians seeing a split between the SPD and the Zentrum, with an edge for the SPD. Jews didn’t vote as a bloc any more than they did in Poland, but, unlike in Poland, in Germany, with its smaller Jewish population, Jews spread their votes among the same mainstream as did other Germans. Middle class German Jews - business people, professionals, civil servants, etc - reacted to Communism just as did other middle class Germans: they had no time for it, viewing it as a dangerous ideology and a movement inimical to the kind of world they lived in and wanted to preserve.

Two good examples, one which ties to the myth of Jewish-Communism, are Victor Klemperer (philologist, a convert to Protestantism living in Dresden) and Willy Cohn (historian, social democrat and Zionist, from Breslau). Both men kept diaries through the Nazi period (Klemperer also into the Communist era, which Cohn could not do, as he perished in the Holocaust); in their diaries both men, professionals, are revealed as fervent Germans - exponents of German culture, patriots, loyal and protective. Both men were committed democrats and humanists, they come across as shocked and disappointed to be pushed out of the country and culture they so love. Their feelings are representative of the stratum of successful, middle class German Jews. I’ve seen deniers refer to Klemperer dismissed as untrustworthy on account of his being a Communist - which he became, after the war, when living in the DDR in the wake of the wreckage of European Jews and Germany caused by the Nazis.

To put it mildly, the Nazis, with their war on the Jews and their racial conceptions, didn’t give a crap about any of these developments in the real world. They held onto and promoted their myths about the Jews and other supposed enemies.

It is painful, on so many levels, to jump ahead and read the testimony of Einstazgruppen leaders at the NMT Einsatzgruppen trial - where they try exonerating themselves through the argument that the mobile killing units had to murder Communists and Jews because Jews . . . well, let’s quote a bit of this nearly clinical testimony: On trial for his life, Werner Braune, who headed Einsatzkommando 11b, a unit of Einsatzgruppe D told the court about the supposed Judeo-Bolshevik thesis and how Jews were to be killed as Communists. Testifying in his own defense, Braune claimed that there was a Fuhrer Order to murder Jews because "the vast majority [of Jews] supported Bolshevism" - but, under questioning, he admitted that if the majority of Jews supported Bolshevism, a minority didn't. In his opinion the minority of Jews not supporting Bolshevism was "ten, twenty, or thirty percent" - and these Jewish non-supporters of Bolshevism were killed along with the supporters of Bolshevism because, when it came to saving them, "the possibility did not exist." The best he could argue with regard to Jews in the occupied USSR, then, was that in his "expert" opinion, which was of course a product of his National Socialist outlook, up to 30% of those Jews murdered by his unit were not supporters of Communism, let alone Communists. And his unit killed them anyway, because its goal was to implement an order, he said, to kill Jews as Communists in the area assigned them. Braune's muddled reason followed directly from the notion of Judeo-Bolshevism: Braune admitted that Jews who were not considered to be Communist supporters (even in his self-serving tally and even by him with his warped perceptions) were wiped out along with Jews whom he had deemed supporters of Communism. In short, according to Braune, Jews with utterly no connection to Communism were slaughtered en masse so that complete communities of Jews - Communists, Communist supporters and sympathisers, and non-Communists - would be removed. That is the essence of genocide. (Braune was sentenced to death, by a judge opposed in general to the death penalty, for his guilt in the Einsatzgruppen murders. He was executed, by hanging, 7 June 1951.)

The Nazi belief that the Jews and the Communist partisans were one and the same, of course, flew in the face of reality; the Jewish partisan movement emerged in any significance in 1942 following the first wave of slaughter of the Jews in the East - and the partisan movement in its core strength was never Jewish. The Nazis’ irrational belief on this score was how they justified mass-murder aimed at rendering areas they controlled judenrein; but it also led the Nazis to misunderstand the nature of the opposition they faced in the East (and in western Europe) and what they were up against. That deniers recycle this anti-Semitic, ahistorical outlook when they try justifying the open-air shootings of 100s of 1000s of Jews in the East as merely necessitated because of the partisans, they reveal some of their sources and thinking to be rooted in Nazi polemics and apologetics.

The leadership of German Jews (e.g., the Centralverein) generally took the approach of quiet avoidance of confrontation over such issues. IIRC many German Jews were embarrassed by the visibility of co-religionists among the eastern revolutionaries - and reacted much as they did toward Ostjuden in general at this disgrace. As far as German Jews were concerned, the issue, in their view, and nothing to do with them, was far-fetched, and best avoided. The whole situation was uncomfortable, as at the same time Jewish leaders didn’t want to abandon Russian Jews either - and sympathy for what Russian Jews endured under the tsar mixed with the cultural disdain of the East. Observant and mainstream Jews felt, along with Jewish Communists, that the latter had left the Jewish communities - these radicals were renegades, and the idea that anti-Semites would lump the Jewish majority together with them was an outrage. Some Jews did respond directly to the charge - offering as arguments that Eastern Jews had been pushed by anti-Semitism and pogroms into taking radical measures and that hotheads (my word) among young Jews especially used extremism to break out of the isolation Jews in the East felt. By and large, German Jews disavowed the Bolsheviks and, in various ways, the Jews who supported them or participated in Communist movements. (I want to add some comments at the end of this ramble on two German Jews . . . )

What about the period ’39 to ’41 until the Germans occupied the region - didn’t the Jews serve the Soviets in the East?

The żydokomuna charge is that, during the period of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, throughout the East the Jews welcomed the Red Army in 1939, joined the occupiers in official positions in the nomenklatura and especially in the police, and helped the Soviet Communists oppress the local Polish, Lithuanian, etc. population. It is sometimes even said that during 1940-1941 the Baltic countries and Poland suffered a “Jewish occupation.” Thus, it allegedly follows that actions against the Jews undertaken by locals, even their support for the Germans, must be viewed as a reaction to this oppression of eastern European countries by the Jewish-Communists. I’m putting this a bit schematically but not overly so!

Let’s turn to Lithuania as an example of how this charge plays out. In a secret protocol to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, the Germans “gave” the Baltics to the Soviets in return for concessions from the USSR. In 1940, as a consequence, the Soviets were able to annex Lithuania and the other Baltic countries to the USSR, which they officially joined as SSRs. The Soviet occupation had complex impacts on Lithuanians. Some Lithuanians were drawn into the new order of things - taking official jobs with the new state. Others saw their businesses and property nationalized. Lithuania had, like Poland and other countries, seen a growth in anti-Semitism during the 1930s. The new government officially banned anti-Semitism and discrimination against Jews; along with this, Jews were recruited into newly opened positions and roles. Jews quickly went from having little role in government to participating in the new administration and its security apparatus. Nonetheless, as they did in other countries, the Soviets reserved the top positions for Russians; in Lithuania, many Lithuanians took leading roles in the new government and security services as well (more comments, data below). At the same time, Jews traditionally had been overrepresented in Lithuania in small business especially in the cities - and these were among the businesses nationalized by the new Soviet government (nearly 60% of the factories that were nationalized had been owned by Jews). These confiscations of businesses and nationalizations hurt many Jews terribly. In this sense, many Jews were defined as “class enemies” of the state. Also, the Communist authorities banned the Zionist organizations (this was ironic in that in Lithuania, as in Poland, young people in particular supported the Soviets - left-labor Zionist groups were generally pro-Soviet). The Jewish Sabbath was no longer a free day, as in the USSR synagogues were closed down and repurposed, nearly all Jewish newspapers were banned, all schools using Hebrew were shut down, etc. In 1940 the Communists arrested “enemies” in Lithuania with about 10% of those arrested being Jews. The secret police maintained files on 1000s of Lithuanians - among them Jews in suspect organizations like the Bund. Similar restrictions and actions hit Lithuanians - the point here is that evidence of Jewish rule or Jewish occupation is not to be found.

In reality, the % of Jews in the Communist apparatus during the Soviet period in Lithuania was roughly the same as the % of Jews in the population (about 200,000 Jews lived in Lithuania at the time, IIRC about 8% of the population). But there were pockets that differed to the general pattern (e.g., Kaunas had a far higher % of Jews in the Party apparatus, Kaunas would become the scene of notorious, horrific pogroms against the Jews, supported by the Germans, in June 1941 when the Germans attacked Lithuania). One study of the composition of the Lithuanian Communists during this period found that of the commission that falsified the election results in July 1940, authorizing the Communist takeover, exactly zero were Jews. And those elected in that fraudulent election were 67 Lithuanians, 3 Poles, 2 Belorussians, 1 Russian, 1 Latvian, and 4 Jews. By June 1941, there were about 4,700 members and candidates in the Lithuanian CP - Jews were slightly overrepresented making up just under 13% (again, a higher % in Kaunas and also among the Communist youth movement). On the other hand, by June 1941, there were no Jews on the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the Lithuanian SSR and only 5 out of 49 People’s Commissars were Jews. In common with the pattern of diminishing Jewish participation, the police apparatus saw the numbers of Russians in the NKVD grow during the period - with 23 Jews on the central staff of 138 by May 1941, when there was only 1 Jew out of 44 city and county chiefs and deputies. There were 2 Jews on the 13-member Supreme Court. Etc.

One enduring Lithuanian national symbol-memory of this period is the deportation carried out by the Soviets in June 1941, just before the German invasion as it turned out. These cruel expulsions took 10s of 1000s of Lithuanian “enemies of the state” far to the Soviet interior where families were broken up and 1000s of men were imprisoned in GULag camps. The action is often depicted as a piece with Jewish-Communist rule in Lithuania. What is not recalled in this remembrance is that the deportations struck the Lithuanian Jewish population along with Lithuanians: almost 14% of those deported at the time were Jews, making Jews overrepresented among the victims. The prevailing national memory has it that the Jews as a group were oppressors of Lithuanians - dominating the Soviet ruling apparatus and especially the security services. It is a strange “Jewish occupation,” however, which targets Jews at least equally as its victims along with other groups in Lithuania.

Closing Comments

In Lithuania, nationalists began cooperating with the Germans prior to Barbarossa. The Germans helped found the Lithuanian Activists Front (LAF), headquartered in Berlin, in late 1940. During 1941, LAF propaganda targeted Jews in Lithuania, threatening them and calling on Lithuanians to use the coming struggle to oust the Soviets as the occasion to settle accounts with the Jews, too. The LAF used the language of host/parasite to demonize the Jews and advocated ethnic cleansing of Lithuania. However, the LAF - this is telling - begged Lithuanian Communists to recant and come over to the nationalist cause. It would seem that for the Germans and the nationalists, the purveyors of the myth of Jewish-Communism, Lithuanian Communists could be forgiven but not Jews, whether Communists or not. The LAF cooperated with the Germans in their invasion of Lithuania but by September 1941, pushing for Lithuanian national interests, they fell out with the Germans and were abolished. However, during the German occupation, LAF’ers, particularly those in the Riflemen’s Union, served the Germans as shooters in the mobile-killing actions which first Einsatzkommando 9 and then Einsatzkommando 3, including Rollkommando Hamann, carried out across Lithuania during summer and fall 1941, helping murder 80% of Lithuania’s Jews.

Finally, one point about “international” conspiracies which I find interesting. A core tenet of the charge of żydokomuna concerns a supposed Jewish international, disloyal to host nations in which Jews lived, and as exemplified by the Jewish-Communist occupation governments of 1939-1941, under Soviet tutelage. A precursor idea among anti-Semites was an anti-Semitic international. Attempts to unite anti-Semitic forces across Europe dated to the 1880s, yes, decades prior to the “Jewish occupation” of 1939-1940 and 25 years before there was ever a Bolshevik Party anywhere on Earth; a formal international anti-Semitic organization, the Bureau and Council of the Anti-Semitic International, wasn’t formed, however, until 1925. Following a conference in Budapest, the organization established a headquarters in Vienna; delegates from Germany, Austria, France, and Russian monarchist circles were active initially. Theodor Fritsch (the elder, long-time anti-Semitic activist, author of Catechism for Anti-Semites in the 1880s) from Germany was among the activists involved; also long-time activist Nesta Webster from UK. The Anti-Semitic International established a press committee - which included a representative from the German newspaper Völkischer Beobachter, bringing the Nazis into direct participation with the International. That the International was short-lived and not effective was probably due to a number of factors: the fractious politics of European anti-Semitism, the clashing nationalisms at work in the movement, and the inauspicious timing, with the German anti-Semites in particular at this point having a party to lead them and hopefully all of Europe in this. The organization held conferences in 1933 (Copenhagen) and 1934 (Budapest), relocated its headquarters to Erfurt, and took the name the World Confederation of Anti-Semites, only to distribute some propaganda on behalf of the Nazis while the Third Reich did its thing and exercised dominance over European loons during the late ‘30s and ‘40s.

In this light, the charge of Jewish-Bolshevism is revealed as a bit too of projection - and our deniers and other exponents of this claptrap would do well to study themselves in mirrors of their own choosing.

- - - - - - - - - -
Some sources: Gerrits, The Myth of Jewish Communism: A Historical Interpretation; van Voren, Undigested Past: The Holocaust in Lithuania; Bankier, Expulsion and Extermination: Holocaust Testimonies from Provincial Lithuania; Grabowski, Hunt for the Jews: Betrayal and Murder in German-Occupied Poland; Polonsky & Michlic, The Neighbors Respond: The Controversy over the Jedwabne Massacre in Poland; Chodakiewicz & Muszynski, Golden Harvest or Hearts of Gold?: Studies on the Wartime Fate of Poles and Jews, Chodakiewicz, Between Nazis and Soviets: Occupation Politics in Poland, 1939-1947
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Balsamo » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:36 pm

Well after StatMec remarkable post - i thought i would have day in advance,but no - mine will seem quite weak.
But the i thought that while his post refers to the real "reality", i might add mine that refers to the percieved reality, which is much more important both sociologically and historically, at least to answer the question: "What the hell went wrong with all those people?"

So here is my original post, which does not adress anything StatMec just wrote.

Hi Jeff, first let me say that i support your motivations behind your post. Fundamentally, you are right, but you seem to have mixed some concepts up.
While i still wait for a Been-there's like offensive by our deniers here - Been-there being a member of the rodoh forum whom i suspect to get an eye on here from time to time, who managed to create a 60 pages discussion on Jewery all by himself, some precisions seem to be needed. So here it is adressing some of your points:

1. “Jews” in Czarist Russia was a nationality, along with others like the Tatars, etc, whether they were atheist or religious had no impact on their “status”. The distinction is important as there are as many forms of Anti-Semitism as there are perceptions of Jews. Trotsky-Bernstein was a Jew for the Russians, even if he did not feel like being one.
2. You are right, tensions – to say the least – between the Regime and the Jewish minority date back to the mist of times, Catherine II ordered all Jews to be expelled from Russia…which of course will explain their later political stands. But it is better to leave thi aside.
3. Indeed, but it does not change a thing on the “White Russian” perception of those policies. And what you call a “ discouragement on ethnic division” will become a pretext of quite a barbaric policy of persecution and mass murders.
4. Again, it is true…But as Jews were a recognized minority, they were more visible than any other, whatever they did. But you are right the Bolshevist revolution has nothing to do with Judaism.
5. This is maybe the point that disturbs me the most, I must say…especially this sentence:
The responsibility for the Holodomar lies solely with Stalin. Anyway, Yogoda was purged by Stalin a few years later and replaced by Yhezov, and later Beria (both gentiles)


It is like saying that the responsibility for the Holocaust was solely that of Hitler or Himmler, or whatever sole guilty you choose to pick up. Yogoda was a guilty as Heydrich was, both were responsible for the implementation of a murderous policy…Unfortunately for the Jewish People, and especially the Ukrainian Jews, and by extension for the Baltic or white russia’s Jews, Yogoda was visible and identified as a Jew. As were some Boslhevik leaders in the Baltic States. Had Heydrich later been shot by Hitler would not have made him a better person.
6. As a matter of facts, the victims of the Shoah were Jews, some poor and illiterates, some wealthy and doctors. They were killed because they Jews. Non-Jewish Russians, along with other nationalities, paid a heavy price as well. I don’t see where you going with this.

I leave the other points as well.


Now as a start one has to reassess the whole thing from the start, keeping in mind that the Jewish Bolshevism perceived threat appeared a long time before Hitler even thought about doing politic or even hating Jews.

Logically, it appeared in Russia at the very beginning of the 20th century, when the newly organized Jews in Western Europe and in the USA, start to feel sympathy for the Jews under Russian domination. This sympathy did indeed materialized into some actions, the more visible being the one of Jacob Schiff – a prominent Wall-Street banker who dedicated much of his life and fortune to ruin the Russian Czarist Regime – supporting heavily Japan in its was – one speaks of 200 million dollars loan - financing revolutionary movements in Russia, and denying the Czarist Regime access to American money market, even during ww1, while doing honorable actions like favoring mass emigration from Jews to the Americas (north and south).

One has to keep in mind that the infamous Protocols were written in the early 20th century because (inspired by) of this international concern about the eastern Jews, and while they (the protocols) were quite unknown in the west, they were taken for granted by the “White Russians” who started to immigrate heavily to Western Europe and who would become the main witness of what was seen as a tragedy by most.

Up to this time, Western Europe were under the influence of other forms of Anti-Semitism more to do with the development of Nationalism as a political doctrine – especially in France with the Dreyfuss case, along with the more traditional form – the catholic and Royalist ones.

The next step will be WW1 and the treaty of Versailles, the action of Lord Balfour, and the destruction of two more Empires – the Austrian and the Ottoman – at least gratefully cheered by some visible Jewish associations (at least in the beginning).

Revolution spread accros Germany – with again some visible Jews at its lead – Hungary came under the authority of Bela Kohn-Kun who belongs to the International and takes his order from Moscow, while the Soviets were trying to invade Poland. And this was the perfect moment for the Protocols to be translated and published across Europe!

This is when the Jewish Bolshevism became a reality across and tetanized Europe full of fear of the spread of Communism. A virtual reality, but nonetheless a historical and sociological one, which will be later adopted by the Nazis.

The first countries to really get scared and to take measures in the name of the Jewish Bolshevism threat would be Poland, Hungary (after Kun) and Romania for obvious demographic and geographic reasons.

Once some States accept a notion, and developp policies on it, a majority of any population follows.

Germany who was almost in a state of civil war, among other fighting the Spartakists whose leaders were again mostly Jews, while a Jewish minister was seen as the main responsible for the deadly inflation that stroke the country, was soon to follow in the same mood.

The Mood is also to be found in France when the Jewish Leon Blum took the power, with his “Front Populaire” and his government whose members were 40% from Jewish descent. Note that they did great social things, but were later seen as being responsible for the disaster of May 1940!

Everywhere you looked, you could see the conspiracy described in the Protocols. And many did see it, all across Europe. This is why even after a Swiss court denounced the Protocols as being a forgery, most people did not care…they knew…(you see, as some Americans knew that Saddam was behind 9/11 and that suddenly French fries had to become liberty fries…remember?)…That is what I call a reality – historical and sociological – because you really had to be a “free-thinker” to defend the point that the Jews had no responsibilities for the mess most were living in.

What I want to say, is that by 1939, a Jew was as popular as a Islamist wearing a Djelaba with a beard and a turban on his head holding a Coran in his hand is in France right now.
This phenomenon has a name: “ Collective guilt” perceived by the public Opinion.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:23 pm

Balsamo wrote:Well after StatMec remarkable post - i thought i would have day in advance,but no - mine will seem quite weak.
But the i thought that while his post refers to the real "reality", i might add mine that refers to the percieved reality, which is much more important both sociologically and historically, at least to answer the question: "What the hell went wrong with all those people?"

Actually that angle is perhaps more to the point than mine! Or maybe we need to look at it both ways . . . anyway, thanks for bringing up Protocols in context of Russia and the way emigres would wind up thinking about things, Bela Kun (very big impact, correct, fitting in with my point about hyper-Euro-Red-Scare), Blum and also reiterating impact of post WWI events in Germany. I think we need to dig into Polish attitudes more and more . . .
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Balsamo » Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:06 am

Actually that angle is perhaps more to the point than mine!


Actually, the two are essential...the one i put forward to understand what happened, yours to not let us fall into the same pit again...

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:15 pm

Balsamo wrote:5. This is maybe the point that disturbs me the most, I must say…especially this sentence:
The responsibility for the Holodomar lies solely with Stalin. Anyway, Yogoda was purged by Stalin a few years later and replaced by Yhezov, and later Beria (both gentiles)


It is like saying that the responsibility for the Holocaust was solely that of Hitler or Himmler, or whatever sole guilty you choose to pick up. Yogoda was a guilty as Heydrich was, both were responsible for the implementation of a murderous policy…Unfortunately for the Jewish People, and especially the Ukrainian Jews, and by extension for the Baltic or white russia’s Jews, Yogoda was visible and identified as a Jew. As were some Boslhevik leaders in the Baltic States. Had Heydrich later been shot by Hitler would not have made him a better person.

I agree that I could have phrased that a lot better. I was not attempting to defend Yogoda in any way. It just pisses me off that people hold this commie scumbag up as "the eternal Jew".

However there is a HUGE difference between him and the likes of Heydrich or Globocnik. Stalin was a notorious micromanager who lorded over his cronies and gave specific instructions to be followed to the letter. Hitler gave far more leeway and preferred that his lackeys "work towards him" (see Ian Kershaw). Thus someone like Globocnik held huge personal autonomy over the killing process and oversight over an important aspect of the Holocaust. Yogoda on the other hand was just a dim-witted thug who (gleefully) carried out his bosses wicked orders. He did not have as much autonomy as Heydrich or Globocnik. My mention of his execution was intended to demonstrate that Stalin's government was not a Judeocentric entity.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Balsamo » Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:59 am

No problem, Jeff

I understood your intentions, but i was also expecting some Been-there's like reactions to your post - which did not come, thank God.
Wording is important, and your message that Stalin being not judeocentric - of course he wasn't as he will later organize a little political judeocide of his own - is better transmited in a less emotional way.
What i meant when i said that is that in any country, regime, culture, religion, etc, there will always some dirty persons ready to do thedirty job they are told to do...

Funny coincidence, on rodoh - whih i cannot access as a member right now - some deniers are having fun quoting Churchill own perception about the Jewish Bolshevism threat...especially since dear Wilson was not that last to blame the Jews for the distruction of the russian empire.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Cerdic » Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:24 pm

Good posts in this thread.

Just to add: Here is the makeup of the Politburo through time. The source is an Antisemitic website.

”10 [23] Oct 1917 Andrei Bubnov, Grigory Zinoviev, Lev Kamenev, Vladimir Lenin, Grigory Sokolnikov, Joseph Stalin and Leon Trotsky elected members of the Political Bureau at the Central Committee meeting”

2 Russians, 4 Jews, 1 Georgian.

”16 March 1921 Zinoviev, Kamenev, Lenin, Stalin and Trotsky elected full members at the Central Committee plenum; Bukharin, Kalinin and Vyacheslav Molotov elected candidate members.”

3 Jews, 1 Georgian, 4 Russians.

”1 January 1926 Bukharin, Kliment Voroshilov, Zinoviev, Kalinin, Molotov, Rykov, Stalin, Tomsky and Trotsky elected full members at the Central Committee plenum; Dzerzhinsky, Kamenev, Grigory Petrovsky, Rudzutak and Nikolai Uglanov elected candidate members”

8 Russians, 3 Jews, 1 Latvia, 1 Pole, 1 Georgian.

”23 October 1926 Trotsky and Kamenev relieved of duties at the joint plenum of the Central Committee and the Central Control Commission ”

1 Jew, Kaganovich.

”19 December 1927 Bukharin, Voroshilov, Kalinin, Kuibyshev, Molotov, Rykov, Rudzutak, Stalin and Tomsky elected full members at the Central Committee plenum; Andreyev, Kaganovich, Kirov, Stanislav Kosior, Mikoyan, Petrovsky, Uglanov and Chubar elected candidate members”

1 Armenian, 1 Latvian, 1 Jew, 2 Ukrainians, 1 Georgian, 11 Russians.

”13 July 1930 Voroshilov, Kaganovich, Kalinin, Kirov, Kosior, Kuibyshev, Molotov, Rudzutak, Rykov and Stalin elected full members at the Central Committee plenum; Andreyev, Mikoyan, Petrovsky, Syrtsov and Chubar elected candidate members.”

1 Armenian, 1 Georgian, 1 Jew, 1 Latvian, 2 Ukrainians, 9 Russians.

”10 February 1934 Andreyev, Voroshilov, Kaganovich, Kalinin, Kirov, Kosior, Kuibyshev, Molotov, Ordzhonikidze and Stalin elected full members at the Central Committee plenum; Mikoyan, Petrovsky, Pavel Postyshev, Rudzutak and Chubar elected candidate members”

2 Georgians, 1 Armenian, 1 Latvian, 2 Ukrainians, 1 Jew, 8 Russians.

http://semiticcontroversies.blogspot.co ... +politburo
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Cerdic » Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:52 pm

8. Karl Marx was baptized Lutheran and made disparaging remarks about "bourgeois Jewish Capitalism" at least once.

Marx is a good example of Antisemite ignorance.

Antisemites ignore the fact that the other half of the duo was Engels, an ethnic German. Many of Marx's influences were German: Hegel, Kant, Feuerbach. The roots of Marxism lie in the economic and sociological changes of the industrial revolution in the Rhineland and England in the mid 1800s - not in anything recognisably Jewish.
„(...) Wenn wir irgendetwas beim Nationalsozialismus anerkennen, dann ist es die Anerkennung, daß ihm zum ersten Mal in der deutschen Politik die restlose Mobilisierung der menschlichen Dummheit gelungen ist.“ Kurt Schumacher 23. Februar 1932

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:58 pm

There is a guy who used to troll Roberto Muhleankampf's blog, I can't remember his username but his Av was Fredrick The Great. I strongly suspected that this guy was Fritz Berg due to similarities in prose.

Anyway, he was constantly on about this topic and referred to the victims mentioned in the Jaeger Report as "Jewish Gunslingers" and strongly implied that killing them was a virtuous deed. His diatribes inspired this thread.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:07 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:There is a guy who used to troll Roberto Muhleankampf's blog, I can't remember his username but his Av was Fredrick The Great. I strongly suspected that this guy was Fritz Berg due to similarities in prose.

Anyway, he was constantly on about this topic and referred to the victims mentioned in the Jaeger Report as "Jewish Gunslingers" and strongly implied that killing them was a virtuous deed. His diatribes inspired this thread.

That was probably k0nsl AKA Franz Holtzhauser - he used the wild west material IIRC also at RODOH - will check later to see if my memory serves.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:23 pm

yeah, k0nsl, you can see where the Swedish Nazi used "gunslingers" in the quoted bit in Northman's post as it appears that k0nsl caused his RODOH account and posts to be removed, presumably due to his humiliation on realizing what was in them . . . Jewish gunslingers, what an idiot!
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:47 pm

Hate to bump this thread gents, but I have another point to make.

The communist Jews of the USSR did not act as a unified bloc at any point. Zinoviev and Kamenev HATED Trotsky and played a huge role in ousting him. Yogoda explicitly approved of, and personally carried out the torture and executions of Zinoviev and Kamenev, even saving the bullets he used to kill them. Kaganovich, likewise approved of the execution of Yogoda. This does not fit at all with the picture of a group of commissar-rabbis snickering in a dark room about how to deceive the world.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby NathanC » Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:47 pm

I believe that this thread is as good a place as any to discuss the Soviet Policy towards the Holocaust during and after the war.

Deniers avoid the topic with the same vigor that they avoid any honest discussion of the west German Trials, for the same reason: it completely demolishes their fantasy narrative. That is, both "Jewish Bolshevism" and their favorite dodge of the Soviets manufacturing evidence for the Holocaust. After all, the Soviet Policy is the complete opposite of what Deniers want it to be. I.e., instead of exaggerating or propagandizing the Holocaust, the Soviets did their best to bury it. Or at least, to hide the fact that the majority of the Victims were Jews.

A good example is of course the Jaeger Report. Of course, it explicitly identifies that Jews were killed because they were Jews and for no other reason. Of course, it was completely the opposite of the Narrative that the Soviets were trying to spin, which is why they buried it for several years after they found it in Lithuania.

Been-There, in typical fashion, of course misses the point. Or maybe he doesn't want to see the point.

Another good example would be the handling of the Black Book of Polish Jewry. Despite the efforts of the Soviet Jewish anti-fascist committee to get it published, the Soviet Government naturally blocked it because - like the Jaeger report - it ran counter to the narrative that they had established. They had even gone as far as to Destroy the plates of the Russian edition in 1948.

If this doesn't refute or at least undermine either the "Jewish Bolshevism" or the fantasy of the Soviets manufacturing evidence for the Holocaust then I really don't know what does.

This should be a nice antidote for when You Know Who reminds us of "Millions turned to Fertilizer" in Majdanek at the IMT.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:14 pm

The post war soviet antisemitisim is well known and pretty much universally aknowlaged. I'm more concerned with those who use the crimes of Yogoda and the GULAG bosses immortalized by Sholtzanitzyn to justify the invasion of the USSR and the Nazi perception of the USSR as being mindless slav zombies led by EWIWL JOOZ.

Never mind that the architects of the Red Terror were a Pole and a Latvian respectively, and that Ukrainian Jews suffered during the Stalinist famine as well.

We cannot ignore that Jews were disproportionately represented in state agencies for reasons I don't know (along with other minority groups such as Georgians and Latvians) and that Yogoda was a disgusting, horrible thug.

However it is important to note that all communist Jews were only Jews in the most trivial ethnic sense and were motivated purely by their ideology. Marxism was their sole religion. A guy like Yogoda was as Jewish as Stalin was Georgian Orthodox and Hitler was Catholic. Jewish revolutionaries rebelled against their religion and culture in the same ways that Russian revolutionaries rebelled against the Church.

As StatMech stated earlier, Jewish groups such as the bund were persecuted terribly and Zionism was outlawed. This was not Jews being like "man, let's get together, us Jews and kill all these gentiles", this was a case of A) a number of atheist Jews selling their souls and rejecting their identity to become minions of communism, acting against the interests of their people on several occasions, and B) the majority of Russian Jews, given the choice between an oppressive group of {!#%@} who wanted to secularize and assimilate them and an an oppressive group of {!#%@} who wanted to kill them and expel them, made the obvious utilitarian choice. I have some sympathy for the latter group (which includes your average Jewish red army soldier in the Russian Civil war) but the former group were reprehensible.

One revolutionary, I can't remember who it was, stated "I came to hate prayer, the rabbis, and God as much as I hated the Tsar". That more than anything explains all of this away.

All of this is a moot point because by 1938-40, almost all of the prominent ethnic Jews in the party were dead.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby NathanC » Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:23 pm

I totally don't dispute any of that.

Well, except for this -

The post war soviet antisemitisim is well known and pretty much universally aknowlaged


Speaking for myself, I would never have heard about this policy had I not started taking on Holocaust Denial. It's not something your average person would know about unless they knew how to look for it.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Monster » Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:42 pm

I only read part of this thread. It's too long for me to want to read in its entirety. You caught my attention here.

Jeff_36 wrote:Communism was their religion and they should be viewed through that lenses. In essence they were about as Jewish as Hitler, Himmler, Globocnik, and Eichmann were Catholic.

You're wrong there. The Nazis were religious, and in particular, Christian. Perhaps you're using some nuance of the word "Catholic" that I'm not thinking of.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Balsamo » Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:14 pm

I think he meant that those Jews had no link to judaism, that their political actions was outside any influence of a organized russian jewish community and therefore not motivated by any jewish agenda.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:23 pm

Dude, Globicnik, Bormann, Gobbles, and Heydrich were hard core atheists. Hitler was either atheist or agnostic. All were hostile to religion and to Christianity. Himmler wanted to replace Christianity with paganism ffs

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Monster » Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:40 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:Dude, Globicnik, Bormann, Gobbles, and Heydrich were hard core atheists. Hitler was either atheist or agnostic. All were hostile to religion and to Christianity. Himmler wanted to replace Christianity with paganism ffs

Maybe. But you can't ignore the swastika, a religious symbol (Hindu, to be fair), and the motto "Gott mit uns".

I found this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lADI9a-jHL8

I truly don't see how you can say that Hitler wasn't a Christian. Perhaps you know more about WW2 and the Nazis than I do, but regarding Hitler's non-religiousness, I don't see it.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:48 pm

He was quoted as stating that Christianity was "a form of Jewish bolshivisim" and that it was a "flabby" religion. He saw religion as "a weak protest against nature". He admired Islam for what he saw as it's warlike nature but generally held religion in contempt.

Rudolf Hoess, Heinrich Mueller, Hans Frank, and Oswald Pohl were also atheists.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Monster » Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:48 pm

Listening twice as much as you speak is a sign of wisdom.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:48 pm

The question is: what kind of "Jewish dictatorship" persecutes Jewish groups and limits their presence on the most important lawmaking body in the state (as Cedric noted)?

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:30 pm

NathanC wrote:Been-There, in typical fashion, of course misses the point. Or maybe he doesn't want to see the point.

Been-there set out in his "international Jewry" and "Untermyer" threads fantasizing about a Jewish world bloc with an interest in war and against Germany. When the reality that Jews are of very diverse views on politics and participate in many blocs, including pro-German ones, became inescapable, been-there sidestepped to a different thought - and seemed to spin up some real or essential vs not-so-real Jewish aims and activity. Lately, under pressure from Nessie, been-there's claimed that he always took account of Jewish splintering but was focused on the dominant (again, read: real) fraction of Jewry, with effective power to act for "international Jewry." It's all the same ahistorical, anti-Semitic claptrap - as demonstrated by been-there's having argued last April that "the Germans had ample justifiable cause to oppose a minority within their society who worked AGAINST their county's interests." Why on Earth would the Germans have justification to act against a Jewish minority in Germany because an international fraction of Jewry whom the German Jews mainly opposed, in been-there's view, opposed German interests? Been-there is a gutter level anti-Semite who has the benefit - as I've said before - of being as dumb as a sack of hammers.

NathanC wrote:Another good example would be the handling of the Black Book of Polish Jewry. Despite the efforts of the Soviet Jewish anti-fascist committee to get it published, the Soviet Government naturally blocked it because - like the Jaeger report - it ran counter to the narrative that they had established. They had even gone as far as to Destroy the plates of the Russian edition in 1948.

That would be Grossman and Ehrenburg's The Black Book of Russian Jewry, published here as The Complete Black Book of Russian Jewry, I assume to distinguish it from earlier shortened editions; Jacob Apensziak edited The Black Book of Polish Jewry, which is David's fave tome for cherry-picking and was in fact published (in NYC IIRC) during the war.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:37 pm

This ain't bad on the religion topic - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_ ... olf_Hitler. Many Nazis, especially IIRC in the SS, described themselves as "God believing" (gottbläubig). This is probably overblown a bit, but it was frowned upon by SS leadership for SS men to stay in, or marry in, the church. The SS were anti-Church but had many competing projects during the war, so my sense is that, given the anticipated blowback they'd get in taking on the Church full stop, they waited for another day, so the speak.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:45 pm

Well, their belief in God was certainly not Christian. Hitler thought Jesus was a German! That is not Christian at all.

The fact is that Nazism was very anti-Christian in character, and many of it's top figures were atheists or nonbelievers of some kind. It is generally acknowledged that hey would begin a kind of de-Christianization campaign after a hypothetical victory.

As for the main topic.....
This is not a matter of Judeo-Bolshivisim (the notion that communism is Jewish and serves "EWIW JOO INTEWESTZ" alone is transparently false and senile), so much as is a matter of Jews who renounced their Judaism and became Bolsheviks. From what I know about Jewish culture and revolutionary Marxism, there is not a whole lot in common between the two.

The people who jumped on the bandwagon so to speak after the civil war cannot be blamed for taking advantage of new opportunities. The issue is with those who held key positions, all of whom were commies BEFORE 1917. Specifically Yagoda. If it wasn't for that piece of {!#%@}, I guarantee that this myth would not exist. {!#%@} you Yagoda, {!#%@} you.
I think that it's safe to say that, like Trotsky, he did not see himself as a Jew, did not act in the interest of Jews, and as I demonstrated above, did not shy away from butchering his former-co-religionists when instructed to do so. There's bad people everywhere, in every state, in every people, in every religion and he is just one example, one who's faith was Marxism and who's god was Stalin.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:26 am

Jeff_36 wrote:Well, their belief in God was certainly not Christian. Hitler thought Jesus was a German! That is not Christian at all.

The fact is that Nazism was very anti-Christian in character, and many of it's top figures were atheists or nonbelievers of some kind. It is generally acknowledged that hey would begin a kind of de-Christianization campaign after a hypothetical victory.

As for the main topic.....
This is not a matter of Judeo-Bolshivisim (the notion that communism is Jewish and serves "EWIW JOO INTEWESTZ" alone is transparently false and senile), so much as is a matter of Jews who renounced their Judaism and became Bolsheviks. From what I know about Jewish culture and revolutionary Marxism, there is not a whole lot in common between the two.

The people who jumped on the bandwagon so to speak after the civil war cannot be blamed for taking advantage of new opportunities. The issue is with those who held key positions, all of whom were commies BEFORE 1917. Specifically Yagoda. If it wasn't for that piece of {!#%@}, I guarantee that this myth would not exist. {!#%@} you Yagoda, {!#%@} you.
I think that it's safe to say that, like Trotsky, he did not see himself as a Jew, did not act in the interest of Jews, and as I demonstrated above, did not shy away from butchering his former-co-religionists when instructed to do so. There's bad people everywhere, in every state, in every people, in every religion and he is just one example, one who's faith was Marxism and who's god was Stalin.

Longerich's biography of Himmler is very clear on his antipathy for the Christian churches and Christianity - and his attraction to and dabbling in paganism.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:36 am

A rather illuminating quote from Rosa Luxembourg that really empathises the total purging of ethnic/national/cultural identity that came with embracing communism.

“Why do you come to me with your special Jewish sorrows? I feel just as sorry for the wretched Indian victims in Putamayo, the Negroes in Africa. . . . I cannot find a special corner in my heart for the ghetto. I feel at home in the entire world wherever there are clouds and birds and human tears.”


This coming from an EWIW DZJOOOOHH ZDOKOMMIEYE.


Furthermore, the Jewishness of some have been overstated. There is speculation over whether or not Vitally Frenkel was Jewish, Bela Kun was only half-Jewish, was raised atheist and went to a Calvinist school. Yakov Yurovsky's parents had converted to Orthodoxy before he was born.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:14 pm

Hate to bump this thread gents but there is some relevant information that I found.

Lenin apparently (wisely) forbade any communist of Jewish decent from participating directly in the initial anti-religious campaign so as to not give the impression that his was a Jewish revolution. An exception was Yaroslavsky, but he was essentially just a propagandist and not a member of the Chaka/NKDV.

Also: Yaroslavsky was a fierce critic of all religions and sought to attack them equally. His journal contained anti-Judaic images.

This poster is worth a thousand words. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USSR_anti- ... E2%80%9341)#/media/File:Bezbozhnik_u_stanka_22-1929.jpg

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Balsamo » Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:25 pm

Jeff,

I think the problem is that you are trying to address sociological issues with a purely factual approach. Public perception – I mean on a sociological level – are rarely based on facts, it is more a collective feeling inspired by bits of facts taken here and there, induced or developed (increased) by the media, philosophers, or government bodies, or a mixt of them. There is a German word for this: Zeitgeist!
And those were indeed strange times – violent, passionate, with huge technological innovation, new political paradigms – a kind of perpetual pre-revolutionary state while the pre-word war1society was still almost unchanged although the church was in real crisis – in fine deprived from his secular political power- but also on the spiritual side with the progress of science.
Since those times, in Europe, people don’t have the same approach to religion as the Americans. For the majority of the population, the church and Christianity is more a matter of tradition, it is a part of the civilization, even though many were still going to the mess on Sunday.
Then after 1919, all of a sudden, everything went upside down, eternal empires, philosophy, new doctrines fascism, bolshevism, the Spanish civil war, etc.
What stroke the most: the Russian and the German revolutions, and the Spanish civil war which aimed to destroy what the kingdom of Spain had been since the mist of times, tales of atrocities against nuns, priest, churches, monasteries…Just like the assaults of the Bolshevists on the Holy Church of Russia, really scared everyone – besides those who had revolutionary feelings.
On the other side of the tracks, news came from Wall Street and its crash which would – just like recently – put Europe in its worst economic crisis ever.

And those were the times when the Protocols of the elders of Zion which pretended to connect the dots between the two offensives – capitalist from the west and revolutionary from the east, were published. It had a huge impact one everyone, not only on extremist parties.
What I want to stress out here is that no one cared if Bela Kun was only half Jewish, and most would not have known Yogoda was, Trotsky/Berstein yes, they also knew that many bankers in NY were also Jews, French remembered Dreyfuss and Rothschild, the scandal of the canal of Panama, the devaluation of the Franc, they knew Leon Blum and his “Jewish” government.
I could go on, but Been-there has over 105 pages of such {!#%@}!

The Fascist party in Italy was the first to grap the opportunity and signed a treaty with the pope. Hitler makes a lot a allusion to the holy creator and providence in mein Kampf, Poland reestablished the Catholic Church stronger than ever and was the first to introduce anti-semitic measure, as Romania.

The perception of the eastern Jewish Bolshevist threat, and its atheism, its will to destroy everything that constitutes the basement of the European civilization, was adopted almost everywhere. This is why even the western democracies – France and Britain – kind of welcomed Franco, and really welcomed Mussolini, even Hitler brought some relief to some, no one criticize Poland or Romania for becoming a dictatorship…Everything but the Eastern Beast, Everything but the Bolshevik revolution.

In Parallel, Fascist or affiliate political parties started to gather more and more attention and political success, primary by taking an accusing stance toward the “world finance, capitalism, the crisis, the devaluation, designated as responsible for the destruction of the old social structures, the impoverishment of the low middle class, and by doing so also accusing the Jews behind Goldman Sachs, Lehmann brothers, etc.

What I mean is that when a sociological spirit is that strong, there is no place for factual approach.

We are seeing it right now with some new consideration of Muslims and Islam in general, and of course no one asks himself about why the same people and the same religion were not a threat for decades and decades…Now next time you take a plan, look if there is a Muslim that looks like one – like wearing a turban – and watch the looks of the passengers entering the plane and taking their seats: it is astonishing and frightening. Here too, no place for factual analysis.

All those perceptions explains the success of personalities like Mussolini, Hitler, Franco, Petain, and even Churchill and de Gaulle…They all were seen for a reason or another to be the savior against the most evil threat. German Christians chose Hitler because he was not communist, Mussolini gave the pope the Vatican city back, Franco restored order and nuns were no longer raped, Petain was cherished to put an end to the Jew Blum government…all were welcomed by the silent people – the ones who does not usually demonstrate or joint extremist parties.
And yes, the Church and the religion played a big role, as it was the most anti bolshevist non political institution. It is quite obvious in Slovakia and Poland. Did Msgr Tiso had a Christian attitude? What about the Catholic Church in Croatia?
Goering loved the cathedrals and ordered not to bomb the city of Amiens, or the less possible, although it was one of the most costly city’s capture by the Wehrmacht. The Gott mit uns on the belt was not for nothing. Who cares about religion, Christianity was part of the European civilization, and that was the gathering flag. Himmler might have been a Pagan, but he let the SS division Charlemagne have its chaplain (wearing a ss uniform). Etc.

As I always say, history is not about judging the past, but about understanding it. It does not matter of the fears of those times were factual or not, it is important to acknowledge them and understand their origins and their outcome.
And yes, the generation of our great great-parents was not smarter than ours, and I doubt that the I-generation to come would be any better. :?

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:58 pm

Excellent post Mr Balsamo

I was merely trying to attack those today who continue to state that the USSR was a Jewish state. What kind of "evil joo dictatorship" posts propaganda like the poster I linked? Also: the head of the NKDV branch charge with anti-church oppression was an ethnic Russian with no Jewish ancestry.

Never mind that Schiff supported the Provisional government of Karensky and pulled his financial support after the October Revolution. IIRC Lenin made nasty remarks about "Jewish bankers" and despite his public pronouncements against anti-Semitism turned a blind eye to General Budonyy's anti-Jewish pogroms in the Ukraine.

I'll give you a comparison: Nom Chomsky is explicitly atheist and anti-religious, he has negative views on Zionism, defended Faruisson due to freedom of speech BS, and is closely linked with the VERY anti-Semitic BDS movement. No one can seriously claim that he is operating in the interest of Jews! Yogoa, Sveldekov and especially Kaganovich went even further!

ALSO: Leo Blum was (like most French Jews) not in the slightest bit communist.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:35 pm

Hate to bump this thread yet again gents, but I've been reading a few books on the red terror and came across some interesting facts.

Just as he forbade Jews from playing a prominent role in the anti-church campaign, Lenin required communists of Jewish decent to take the lead in actions against synagogues. The Yevsekstra organized a symbolic show trial in 1922 where Judaism was symbolically sentenced to death. Some JOOTATERSHIP that was eh?

While the White Army was carrying out pogroms in the Ukraine, Trotsky made no effort to complain to the Politburo about it and even went so far as to campaign for a reduction of Jewish membership in leading posts, particularly the army and secret service.

Nikita Khrushchev was an antisemite who frequently made derisive remarks about "Abrahamovich's" in the government. Molotov, despite the fact that he had a Jewish wife, made some highly anti-Semitic comments about Lev Kaminev, something about his "shifty Jewish eyes".

a Stalin biographer stated that the Bolsheviks of Jewish descent were very self conscious about their Jewishness and bent over backwards to appear "more Russian then the Russians and more Bolshevik then the Bolshevik's". Kaganovich despised the Yiddish language and made a point to never speak it. Mekhlis, Stalin's bodyguard, would frequently join in on his master's anti-Semitic tirades.

Most important to note: Karl Radek, one of David Duke's favorite whipping boys (no doubt because of his rather visible Jewishness) , remarked to one of his friends in the early 1920's that Jewishness was "a disease" and that he wanted to "exterminate it". That really says everything.

All said and done, the over-representation was no longer present after 1937, which made nazi ravings about this subject in 1940 and 1941 sound fairly stupid.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby ryu238 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:49 pm

As someone of Jewish descent, I am glad that you point out how antisemitic the soviets were. This also proves that there was no collusion between the commies and the Jews, when the repots came out, which is a typical revisionist hiding hole.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:59 pm

I would not call the soviets antisemitic until the 1948 campaign. There is no doubt that they were always HIGHLY anti-Judaic and that Bolsheviks of Jewish background shared this sentiment, and while over-represented, were not motivated by their Jewishness, and were Jewish in only the most trivial way.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby ryu238 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:56 am

Still the fact that many Jews didn't support Bolshevism really puts a crimp in neo-nazi arguments especially in regards towards Holocaust denial

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:30 am

more info......

Apparently the most overrepresented group in the Cheka by far were Latvians, who made up 54-75% of Senior Commissars at one point (compared to 0.5% of the population). Both of Felix Dzerzhinsky's deputies (Lastis and Peters) were Latvians. So why was their no phenomenon of "EWIW WATVIAN KOMMINIZIM?

Altogether 9.1 % of the Cheka was Jewish. However this number was far greater in areas once covered by the pale of settlement, but this is understandable, as that area had a higher percentage of Jews. post-1938 the number was something like 4%, with Jews in visible positions cleared out for the most part. Jews were frequently targeted as "merchants and speculators". Cheka officials in the Ukraine made it a point to have a quota of executed Jews so as to show that they were not fueled by a Jewish Conspiracy.

Altogether 10-20% of the central committee was made up of communists of Jewish ancestry. This is disproportionate, but not like the huge figures (95-97% usually) that were stated by the White Russian Press.

Some cranks claim that Lenin's wife was a jew (not true) and that Dzerzhinsky was a jew (LOL not true at all). An American newspaper identified Lastis and Peters as Jewish lol. Who comes up with this {!#%@}?
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