refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:25 pm

Upton, must we open up the whole can of worms over the Cold war tactics being used against Russia by America? This is something no informed American should be trying to support or be proud of. Nothing to do with Trump's crimes of collusion or obstruction of justice of course. All to do with America's attempt to destroy Russia's economy with dirty tricks.

I mean after all Upton, crying about Russia taking the Crimea with a over 90% vote in favor, as compared to America's nearly 40 wars of aggression since WW2, and especially the Iraq war and attempts take control of the entire ME as per the PNAC agenda.

And that's not even getting into mentioning how America is attempted to do the same sh-t to China!

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Jeff_36 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:03 am

NathanC wrote:Regardless of Stalin’s personal feelings, the fact remains that while Yagoda was “promoted” to First Deputy due to Menzhinsky’s illness, Stalin undermined his authority and gave operational control of the OGPU to those (Non Jews) that he trusted,
Not entirely true. The NKVD was divided between the "Yagoda camp" and the "Yezhov camp". The former has a greter proportion of Latvians, Poles, and Jews, it was not a specifically or purely Jewish set. Stalin trusted the latter far more, but he was not adverse with utilizing the former to carry out collectivization and famine. There was overlap too - Mikhial Frinovsky had been Yagoda's deputy but had switched camps whan he saw the writing on the wall. Bought him an extra 18 months of life before he was killed in the second wave of NKVD purges, along with Yezhov.

Byalytsky and Evdokimov were given the important work and the freedom to do as they please
We mustn't forget Stanislaus Redens, Pavel Bulanov and Israel Leplevsky. All three played huge roles in the Holodomar. I did a tally of all the officials, NKVD and otherwise, who were linked directly to the famine. Including Yagoda, the number of Jews was something like 26%. Overrpresentation yes, but not domination. The notion of a "Jewish famine" is not born out by the numbers.
If the Antisemites want to use mean old Yagoda - who was undermined and repeatedly passed over by his boss in favor of more trusted (Non Jewish) colleagues - as an “example” of the real position of Jews in the USSR, let them. Mean Old Yagoda does not help their case, at all.
Yagoda was a horrid human being - period. We mustn't view him through a Jewish lens because he was an atheist and a communist who rejected Judaism. The man, from what I have read of him, lacked a soul and seemed immune to any shame. Recall that he was also a sexual deviant. Many of his victims in the Ukraine were rural Jews, clinging to their old way of life. I doubt Yagoda cared. By contrast Felix Dzerzhinsky, awful as he was, was capable of showing remorse and reflection from time to time. I fully believe that had Yagoda not found Marxism ( he bounced from ideology to ideology for a period in the early 10's) he would have turned out as a Jack-the Ripper type character.

I often wonder if his character became reflected physically as he grew older. I found a pic of him taken during WWI - he appeared to be an average looking man, who looked a bit like a character in an old Hollywood Hardboiled detective movie. And yet by 1933 he was a hideous, deformed, evil dwarf. It's like all those years of dirty deeds had caused him to become more like himself in the end.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Jeff_36 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:11 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote: Translation: Terror had broken out in the city. Many arrests were being made. The Jews were taking vengeance for everything on everybody. There were a lot of them in the Cheka and at the head of it. A sadistic Jewish woman turned up who killed with her own hands the officers who were being found and arrested. Right before our departure for Elizavetgrad, Kalugin was arrested. Sof'ya Nikolaevna was in despair and told us how it happened. "We were walking peacefully down the street when some guy ran up to us and said, "You're the bastard who used to call me a Yid in the Gymnasium!" He took her husband off with the police, who were right on the spot."...

The management of the Cheka consisted solidly of Jews. They were taking merciless revenge for past insults, for pogroms...

So, I don't know what Alennikova's views were on the matter, but whether intentionally or not, she did reveal the CAUSES of the Jewish proclivity for Bolshevism.

And let it be said, that was in the early days, before the horrors of the Communist system in Russia appeared.
I have a few issues with this.

1. Most Jewish communists were not racially or religiously conscious - Trotsky is a blueprint here. They would not have cared about past abuses as they rejected Jewish identity altogether. Recall that this very same Cheka carried out a savage purge of Jewish religious and cultural institutions in 1919-20.

2. The upper management of the Cheka had very few Jews in the late 10's. It was a very Polish/Latvian set at the time. It's middle management was heavily Latvian - 70% by some estimates. It was only in the Ukraine where Jews were overrpresented in the early security services, due to their making a larger portion of the population - and many senior Bolshiviks, such as Zinoviev, made serious efforts to reduce the Jewish component. Lenin made sure that the repression against the Church was carried out by ethnic Russian officers alone.
A sadistic Jewish woman
That's definitely Rosalia Zemlyachk.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:48 am

often wonder if his character became reflected physically as he grew older. I found a pic of him taken during WWI - he appeared to be an average looking man, who looked a bit like a character in an old Hollywood Hardboiled detective movie. And yet by 1933 he was a hideous, deformed, evil dwarf. It's like all those years of dirty deeds had caused him to become more like himself in the end.
Drink and drug abuse as well.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:51 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote: Translation: Terror had broken out in the city. Many arrests were being made. The Jews were taking vengeance for everything on everybody. There were a lot of them in the Cheka and at the head of it. A sadistic Jewish woman turned up who killed with her own hands the officers who were being found and arrested. Right before our departure for Elizavetgrad, Kalugin was arrested. Sof'ya Nikolaevna was in despair and told us how it happened. "We were walking peacefully down the street when some guy ran up to us and said, "You're the bastard who used to call me a Yid in the Gymnasium!" He took her husband off with the police, who were right on the spot."...

The management of the Cheka consisted solidly of Jews. They were taking merciless revenge for past insults, for pogroms...

So, I don't know what Alennikova's views were on the matter, but whether intentionally or not, she did reveal the CAUSES of the Jewish proclivity for Bolshevism.

And let it be said, that was in the early days, before the horrors of the Communist system in Russia appeared.
I have a few issues with this.

1. Most Jewish communists were not racially or religiously conscious - Trotsky is a blueprint here. They would not have cared about past abuses as they rejected Jewish identity altogether. Recall that this very same Cheka carried out a savage purge of Jewish religious and cultural institutions in 1919-20.

2. The upper management of the Cheka had very few Jews in the late 10's. It was a very Polish/Latvian set at the time. It's middle management was heavily Latvian - 70% by some estimates. It was only in the Ukraine where Jews were overrpresented in the early security services, due to their making a larger portion of the population - and many senior Bolshiviks, such as Zinoviev, made serious efforts to reduce the Jewish component. Lenin made sure that the repression against the Church was carried out by ethnic Russian officers alone.
A sadistic Jewish woman
That's definitely Rosalia Zemlyachk.
That is exactly the kind of thing I can learn from this site. Thanks for the identification.

I'm sure you are right about the Cheka in general. Alennikova was describing the situation in Odessa only, which had a very large Jewish population. So, it's likely there would be more Jews in the Cheka there than elsewhere. Also a likely contributing factor to what she wrote is confirmation bias. She simply noticed Jews among the Cheka and perhaps didn't notice Gentiles there, as a result of her own political orientation. (I've read a bit in the Russian émigré literature and don't have a lot of sympathy for some of them. I can understand that they felt entitled to their privileges back in Russia, but I never felt they had such an entitlement.)

Apart from all that, though, I think the whole notion of "Jewish Bolshevism" is something of a red herring (no pun intended---I didn't capitalize "red" :) ). Historically, some groups lean in different directions from others. In the US, African-Americans tended to be Republican until the New Deal, and southern whites tended to be Democratic until 1964. Jews, Quakers, and Unitarians have generally been "left"; Baptists (still), and Methodists, Congregationalists, and Episcopalians (until about 1976) tended to be "right." All that is, or ought to be, independent of the Holocaust. A recently-deceased guy that I knew for 50 years was rather nutty, always preferring conspiracy theories to straightforward explanations. He was an anti-vaxer, a climate-change denier, a birther who to the end believed Obama was a Muslim, a 9/11 truther, and a strong believer in ZOG. And yet he didn't deny any of the reality of the Holocaust, and he always expressed outrage at its horrors and sympathy for its victims.

Still, he made a lot of "Jewish Bolshevism" and was fond of pointing out how much more likely a Jew was to be a Communist than a Gentile was. That small viral infection is the sort of thing that brings on a major illness if it's not seen to. In his case, the infection had started to spread, as he groused on behalf of the Poles, saying all the Jews in Poland welcomed the 1940 invasion from Russia.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:57 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
often wonder if his character became reflected physically as he grew older. I found a pic of him taken during WWI - he appeared to be an average looking man, who looked a bit like a character in an old Hollywood Hardboiled detective movie. And yet by 1933 he was a hideous, deformed, evil dwarf. It's like all those years of dirty deeds had caused him to become more like himself in the end.
Drink and drug abuse as well.
Yes indeed. I'm sure everyone posting here has seen the documentary "High Hitler," describing his history of drug abuse. And, unlike Dorian Gray, he didn't have a picture up in the attic to absorb the consequences of that abuse.

More recently, I saw a documentary on the drugs he had given to the Wehrmacht, which have also been mentioned somewhere on this board. That enabled them to keep going for days at a time, and perhaps provided what the British patronizingly used to call "Dutch courage."
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by NathanC » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:08 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:Not entirely true. The NKVD was divided between the "Yagoda camp" and the "Yezhov camp".
I was talking more about the OGPU days, specifically in 1930 during the period of Dekulakuzation. The Article DH mentioned (Wheatcroft, 2007) gives a good overview of Yagoda's real, almost minor, role in the early 1930s up to the transition between the OGPU and the NKVD.
Jeff_36 wrote:There was overlap too - Mikhial Frinovsky had been Yagoda's deputy but had switched camps whan he saw the writing on the wall. Bought him an extra 18 months of life before he was killed in the second wave of NKVD purges, along with Yezhov.
It cannot be ignored that Frinovsky had his first start as Evdokimov's deputy in the late 20s. Evdokimov, along with Dzierziensky, Beria and Yezhov, was one of the most important shapers of the Cheka/OGPU/NKVD's policies. Evdokimov was the one who started the practice of faking "evidence" against Stalin's enemies, with the Shakhty trial. His performance in the said trial earned him Stalin's favor, to the point that Stalin told him to just ignore Yagoda and work directly with him. I doubt that Frinovsky, who grew and learned from Evdokimov, was ever really "loyal" to Yagoda, whom Evdokimov heavily mistrusted and whose position he craved. He was probably always Evdokimov's man, and it was through him that Evdokimov and his followers would continue to play a huge role in Yezhov's NKVD during the great terror.
Jeff_36 wrote:We mustn't forget Stanislaus Redens, Pavel Bulanov and Israel Leplevsky. All three played huge roles in the Holodomar. I did a tally of all the officials, NKVD and otherwise, who were linked directly to the famine. Including Yagoda, the number of Jews was something like 26%. Overrpresentation yes, but not domination. The notion of a "Jewish famine" is not born out by the numbers.
I wouldn't exactly call Yagoda's role in the Holodomor "direct". The most he did was block the borders and prevent people from escaping. Still an awful crime, but not direct. The ones more "directly" involved were Redens and his replacement, Balytsky, who personally went out and killed people on Postyshev's behalf, as well as Evdokimov, who did the same thing in the North Caucasus on Stalin's personal recommendation.
Jeff_36 wrote:Yagoda was a horrid human being - period. We mustn't view him through a Jewish lens because he was an atheist and a communist who rejected Judaism. The man, from what I have read of him, lacked a soul and seemed immune to any shame. Recall that he was also a sexual deviant.
I agree. As far as I'm concerned, the Cheka/OGPU/NKVD were no better than the SS, a criminal organization with a criminal nature, and with participation automatically making you a criminal. Yagoda deserved his purging, just like Yezhov and Evdokimov after him deserved theirs.

I have to say, though, the more I read about Yagoda from Kotkin, Wheatcroft, et al, the more I see the big picture. He was a complete douchebag, no denying that, but he and his Boss Menzhinsky seemed to draw the line at straight up "faking" evidence the way Evdokimov did, since they tried to stop the guy and only caved in when Evdokimov went over their heads to Stalin. As much of a mass murderer as Yagoda was, he's a more accurate example of the "cog in the machine" that some Nazi perpetrators tried to present themselves as; a glorified "middle man" between Stalin and his true loyalists, and even then not always. I consider him to be a "microcosm" of the whole "Judeo Bolshevism" myth the same way Lenin is. People only pay attention to Yagoda because he was "ethnically" Jewish and feeds their confirmation bias, and because they want to distract from the Non Jews who were leagues worse than him.

I made this to show Yagoda's real position in the police hierarchy. Whatever Yagoda's "Religion" was, he does not support the Anti Semites' case, at all. In this chart, Yagoda's the only "Jewish" person. Everyone else was a Non Jew, and unlike him, Stalin actually trusted them and used them to put Yagoda in his place and carry out his important dirty work.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:25 pm

More correctly stated, America receives great strategic benefit by supporting the Israeli apartheid regime. Ignoring that it truly is an apartheid regime just doesn't pass muster. And the Zionist goal is of course, stealing the land that was granted to the Palestinian people.
And now, the U.S. stays and supports terrorists fighting against Syria's lawful government, both in U.S. interests of wrestling any control Russia might gain in Syria, away from Russia and China and maintaining U.S. control. Suiting the Zionist agenda perfectly, which is obviously to steal more land from Syria.

America is intent on controlling the world and that is consistent with Zionism's gameplan. Is that proof that Jews control the world? Good arguments can be presented by both sides.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:29 am

We think there is a Zionist conspiracy and the US are duped into it.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by NathanC » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:39 am

Image

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:41 am

NathanC wrote:Image
which is why the US is involved in multiple wars it is losing. No one cares...I suggest you rethink that.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by NathanC » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:44 am

No one cares about your fantasies.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:48 am

NathanC wrote:No one cares about your fantasies.
They certainly do not care about yours. Mine are not sexual.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by NathanC » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:53 am

VFX wrote:
NathanC wrote:No one cares about your fantasies.
They certainly do not care about yours. Mine are not sexual.
Nope. No "Fantasies" from me, just factual, evidence based statements.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:07 am

How old is this VFX guy? 13?
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:39 am

NathanC wrote:
VFX wrote:
NathanC wrote:No one cares about your fantasies.
They certainly do not care about yours. Mine are not sexual.
Nope. No "Fantasies" from me, just factual, evidence based statements.
Please show me these factual, evidence based stories of yours. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:47 am

I think this whole issue has a fairly simple explanation. In brief, the undeniable history of Tsarist discrimination against Jews, did lead many Russian Jews to support the Bolsheviks. The irony of that is that this support had a boomerang effect when the Stalin regime turned vicious. Solzhenitsyn described it well in Chapter 68 of "In the First Circle":
Alexander Solzhenitsyn wrote:It was nothing new. It had first begun the previous spring in the field of theatrical criticism. At the beginning, it seemed innocent enough to print the critics’ real names, which were Jewish, in parentheses after their Russian-sounding pen names. Then it started to infect the literary world. In a certain second-rate newspaper that dealt with everything under the sun but its own business, somebody slipped in the venomous word “cosmopolite.” Thus the word was discovered. The beautiful, proud word that united all worlds of the universe, that had crowned the noblest geniuses of all the ages—Dante, Goethe, Byron—that word had been distorted and made ugly on the pages of that worthless rag and came to mean “kike.”

Then it crawled further on, hiding shamefully in document files behind closed doors.

And now the chill, warning breath was reaching even the technical sphere. Roitman, steadily and brilliantly advancing toward fame, had in the past month felt his own position being undermined.

Could his memory be playing him false? During the Revolution, and for a long time afterward, the word “Jew” had had a connotation of greater reliability than the word “Russian.” A Russian had to be checked up on more than a Jew: Who were his parents? What had been his source of income before 1917? This wasn’t necessary with a Jew. To a man, the Jews were in favor of the Revolution that had rid them of pogroms, of settlement restrictions.

And now, imperceptibly, Iosif Stalin, hiding behind a screen of second-rank figures, was grasping the whip of the persecutor of the Israelites
That pretty much lays it out. The system is rigged against any noticeable, identifiable minority in this history. Responding the way any human beings would to centuries of discrimination, Jews did flock to the Reds in large numbers. They were Internationalists and populists who hoped to make the world a better place. The fact that the system got perverted by a small coterie of people around Stalin, very FEW of whom were Jewish, then ironically led to Jews getting tied to and blamed for the excesses of Stalinism, which they decidedly were not guilty of.

As Solzhenitsyn says, Stalin himself was an anti-Semite and at the end of his life was planning pogroms of his own. In fact, many of his prominent early victims---Zinov'ev (1936), Kamenev (1936), Trotsky (1940)---were Jewish. The fact that Kaganovich (Jewish) survived and died in his bed in Moscow is anomalous. If Stalin had lived longer, neither he nor Molotov (not Jewish) would have survived the next purge.

I'm with NathanC on this: Nobody should care whether a few Jews or a lot of Jews supported the Bolsheviks. Their ethnicity is an unimportant part of the history. This same canard could have gotten some support in the US after the Rosenbergs were convicted and executed in the early 1950s. It didn't, because the judge, the prosecuting attorney, and many of the jury were themselves Jewish. Bernard Malamud wrote about this in "The Chosen" (or possibly "The Promise"---it's been a while since I read these books). The main character in the book is Reuben Malter, a Talmudic student saddled with a mentor who is a literalist willing to strain credibility to avoid believing that any scribe ever miscopied anything, while Malter's father takes the opposite point of view. When the Rosenbergs were executed, Malter's mentor is very upset and worries about a possible pogrom. Malter reassures him, saying that the Rosenbergs were executed because they were spies, not because they were Jews.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:16 pm

This topic coincidentally impacts an article I’m writing for a planned encyclopedia of mathematics (jointly with a colleague in Tel Aviv, I’m to write a history of Soviet/Russian mathematics from 1914 to 2000). That history cannot be told without bringing in a lot of general history, including the suppression of dissent in the USSR, the worsening economic situation during the 1970s and 1980s, and bureaucratic anti-semitism. Back in the 1970s, I had the opportunity to meet two outstanding mathematicians who had emigrated to Israel.

One was Il’ya Iosifovich Piatetskii-Shapiro (1929—2009). He was dismissed from his post at Moscow University in 1968 for protesting the confinement of a dissident to a mental institution, then five years later dismissed from his position at the Institute of Applied Mathematics and forbidden to use libraries after applying to emigrate. Under international pressure, the USSR government finally let him emigrate in 1976; in 1990, he was awarded the Wolf Prize for his outstanding mathematical work.

And I wondered: Why don’t the people who are eager to notice a Jew who supports a Communist regime seem equally eager to notice one who protests against it at great personal cost?

The other émigré was Israel Gohberg (1928—2009, the name obviously comes from an ancestor of his named Hochberg, although he was born in Ukraine and raised in Kirghizia). I asked him about his emigration, and he told me he just didn’t think he had any future in the USSR. He pointed out that there were no Jews in the Mathematics section of the USSR Academy of Sciences between 1968 and 1984. Like his contemporary Piatetskii-Shapiro, he lived as a “refusenik” (“v otkaze,” as it is in Russian) for five years.

Altogether some 1000 mathematicians emigrated from the USSR just before and after it broke up. This was a great hemorrhage of talent that one would think no country could well afford. (But then, as Gohberg’s remark on the Academy of Sciences shows, a lot of that talent was being suppressed in the USSR and its emigration was therefore not seen as a loss.) Even so, some of the most talented, such as Vladimir Igorevich Arnol’d (1937—2010) and Izrail Moiseevich Gel’fand (1913—2009) remained, the former until his death, although he took every advantage of the relaxation in political control to travel frequently in the West, the latter until 1990.

In trying to find out how many mathematicians emigrated, I came across the following website with the title “Who emigrated from the USSR and how?” The author gives a total figure of 290,000 Jews who emigrated between 1970 and 1989. He also mentions that some 1,500,000 Germans emigrated, over a longer period from 1951 to 1996.

The number of Jews emigrating to Israel increased abruptly after the 1967 war, in which the USSR supported the Arab side against Israel. (In June 1968, the USSR broke diplomatic relations with Israel.) They were understandably reluctant to remain in a country that was backing a coalition determined to wipe Israel off the map.

The author of this website also includes the following information, which seems ambiguous in its import:
During the Cold War the United States had a special program under which many Soviet Jews and members of their families could get refugee status. “Soviet Jews lied to three countries: Israel by claiming to be Zionists, the USSR by claiming to have nonexistent relatives in Israel, and the USA by claiming political persecution.” So wrote Anatolii Steklov. Whereas in 1973 only 1500 of the 34,733 Jews emigrating from the USSR came to the US, in 1989 approximately 56,000 of the 72,000 emigres came to the US. The flood of Jewish emigrants from the USSR was so massive that Washington was obliged to impose a quota on the number of Soviet immigrants it would accept.
The ambiguity comes because I can't tell whether the author endorses Steklov's sentiments or not. Steklov's attitude, however, is crystal-clear. What evidence he had that the political persecution didn't exist is something I would like to see. I don't believe it.

As one of a small number of Russian speakers in northern Vermont, I helped a half-dozen immigrant families from the USSR to get settled here in the early 1990s. While most of them were Jewish, there was one Baptist family from Kazakhstan, who struck it rich the American way. (They were in an automobile accident and sued the other driver for a handsome sum.) But there were, even in this small group, some dissensions. One of the families told me that if they had met a certain other family back in the USSR, they would have had nothing to do with them, regarding them as mere criminals.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by NathanC » Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:18 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:I think this whole issue has a fairly simple explanation. In brief, the undeniable history of Tsarist discrimination against Jews, did lead many Russian Jews to support the Bolsheviks. The irony of that is that this support had a boomerang effect when the Stalin regime turned vicious. Solzhenitsyn described it well in Chapter 68 of "In the First Circle":
Alexander Solzhenitsyn wrote:It was nothing new. It had first begun the previous spring in the field of theatrical criticism. At the beginning, it seemed innocent enough to print the critics’ real names, which were Jewish, in parentheses after their Russian-sounding pen names. Then it started to infect the literary world. In a certain second-rate newspaper that dealt with everything under the sun but its own business, somebody slipped in the venomous word “cosmopolite.” Thus the word was discovered. The beautiful, proud word that united all worlds of the universe, that had crowned the noblest geniuses of all the ages—Dante, Goethe, Byron—that word had been distorted and made ugly on the pages of that worthless rag and came to mean “kike.”

Then it crawled further on, hiding shamefully in document files behind closed doors.

And now the chill, warning breath was reaching even the technical sphere. Roitman, steadily and brilliantly advancing toward fame, had in the past month felt his own position being undermined.

Could his memory be playing him false? During the Revolution, and for a long time afterward, the word “Jew” had had a connotation of greater reliability than the word “Russian.” A Russian had to be checked up on more than a Jew: Who were his parents? What had been his source of income before 1917? This wasn’t necessary with a Jew. To a man, the Jews were in favor of the Revolution that had rid them of pogroms, of settlement restrictions.

And now, imperceptibly, Iosif Stalin, hiding behind a screen of second-rank figures, was grasping the whip of the persecutor of the Israelites
That pretty much lays it out. The system is rigged against any noticeable, identifiable minority in this history. Responding the way any human beings would to centuries of discrimination, Jews did flock to the Reds in large numbers. They were Internationalists and populists who hoped to make the world a better place. The fact that the system got perverted by a small coterie of people around Stalin, very FEW of whom were Jewish, then ironically led to Jews getting tied to and blamed for the excesses of Stalinism, which they decidedly were not guilty of.

As Solzhenitsyn says, Stalin himself was an anti-Semite and at the end of his life was planning pogroms of his own. In fact, many of his prominent early victims---Zinov'ev (1936), Kamenev (1936), Trotsky (1940)---were Jewish. The fact that Kaganovich (Jewish) survived and died in his bed in Moscow is anomalous. If Stalin had lived longer, neither he nor Molotov (not Jewish) would have survived the next purge.

I'm with NathanC on this: Nobody should care whether a few Jews or a lot of Jews supported the Bolsheviks. Their ethnicity is an unimportant part of the history. This same canard could have gotten some support in the US after the Rosenbergs were convicted and executed in the early 1950s. It didn't, because the judge, the prosecuting attorney, and many of the jury were themselves Jewish. Bernard Malamud wrote about this in "The Chosen" (or possibly "The Promise"---it's been a while since I read these books). The main character in the book is Reuben Malter, a Talmudic student saddled with a mentor who is a literalist willing to strain credibility to avoid believing that any scribe ever miscopied anything, while Malter's father takes the opposite point of view. When the Rosenbergs were executed, Malter's mentor is very upset and worries about a possible pogrom. Malter reassures him, saying that the Rosenbergs were executed because they were spies, not because they were Jews.
It's important to remember that there were two, or even three Russian Revolutions. The 1905 and February 1917 revolutions that were against the Czar, and the October 1917 Revolutions that overthrew the provisional government and brought the Bolsheviks to power. Most people tend to conflate them.

The point about the Czar's pogroms leading to the Revolution only really applies to the February Revolution. Indeed, it was only the February Revolution that Jacob Schiff, a Jewish Banker based in the US, supported, in order to help alleviate the persecution Russian Jews were enduring under the Czar. When the Bolsheviks threatened revolution and threatened to ignore all Provisional Government and Czarist debts, Schiff withdrew his support and demanded they pay him back. This pattern generally extends to most Jews in the Russian empire. As mentioned previously, even Kamenev and Zinoviev voted against the October revolution, and believed so strongly in their conviction that they published their opposition through a rival party's newspaper. The same is true for most "Jewish Bolsheviks".

I don't think Molotov would've been purged. He was just too visible for even Stalin to take that risk. Publicly humiliating him before the Politburo and ruining his career by implicating his wife was probably enough.

So, in summary:

1) Pointing out that Revolution was in response to pogroms misses the larger picture, that this is only really true for the February Revolution aimed against the Czar
2) The October Revolution was caused by the failure of the Provisional Government to live up to its promises, and the continued involvement in WW1 which most people opposed. Jewish involvement, real or imagined, is not enough to explain this. It's more productive to point out the other factors.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:26 pm

Thanks, NathanC. I do need to recalibrate my thinking on this somewhat. I thought the effects of Tsarist antisemitism probably lingered beyond just the February (well, March actually) revolution, at least in the minds of many, who may not have been as aware as Schiff was of the changes that the Bolsheviks were likely to bring. If I ever knew that Kamenev and Zinov'ev were against Lenin in 1917, I had forgotten it. (Time to get my history books out again.) I know there was a lot of doubt in many people's minds, and Lenin more or less had to force the issue.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by VFX » Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:32 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
often wonder if his character became reflected physically as he grew older. I found a pic of him taken during WWI - he appeared to be an average looking man, who looked a bit like a character in an old Hollywood Hardboiled detective movie. And yet by 1933 he was a hideous, deformed, evil dwarf. It's like all those years of dirty deeds had caused him to become more like himself in the end.
Drink and drug abuse as well.
Yes indeed. I'm sure everyone posting here has seen the documentary "High Hitler," describing his history of drug abuse. And, unlike Dorian Gray, he didn't have a picture up in the attic to absorb the consequences of that abuse.

More recently, I saw a documentary on the drugs he had given to the Wehrmacht, which have also been mentioned somewhere on this board. That enabled them to keep going for days at a time, and perhaps provided what the British patronizingly used to call "Dutch courage."
The use of methamphetamine, better known as crystal meth, was particularly prevalent: A pill form of the drug, Pervitin, was distributed by the millions to Wehrmacht troops before the successful invasion of France in 1940. This was often mixed with cocaine. The fantatical Nazis were not high on National Socialism, they were high on P.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Jeff_36 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:28 am

VFX wrote:We think there is a Zionist conspiracy and the US are duped into it.
LOL. Its past your bedtime.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:57 am

I'm always amazed at people who prefer conspiracy theories to straightforward, commonsense explanations. I've written in several places about my late conspiracy-mongering friend, who was a firm believer in ZOG. He managed to combine that with his 9/11 truther efforts. He went over lists of victims, trying to prove that Jews were underrepresented among them. He was convinced that the Mossad had been behind the attacks (despite videos released by al-Qaeda itself showing Osama Bin Laden narrating to his friends what was happening and telling them to keep watching after one tower was hit because the other one was going to be hit also), and that the word had gotten out to Jews not to go to work in Manhattan on 9/11. (The communications network needed to do THAT without tipping off any Gentiles staggers the imagination. That none of the thousands of people who must have been notified betrayed the secret to anyone puts it outside the realm of sanity.)

I made it a policy decades ago not to argue with convinced morons, so I don't. If they can't connect the obvious dots, such as the fact that even the Nuremberg defendants and Eichmann himself did not deny that the Holocaust happened, when (if there were any evidence supporting that view), that would have been their surest defense---well, I just write them off and refuse to answer their idiotic claims.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by VFX » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:02 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote: I made it a policy decades ago not to argue with convinced morons, so I don't. If they can't connect the obvious dots, such as the fact that even the Nuremberg defendants and Eichmann himself did not deny that the Holocaust happened, when (if there were any evidence supporting that view), that would have been their surest defense---well, I just write them off and refuse to answer their idiotic claims.
don't get dementia and start talking to yourself then.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:35 pm

The problem of Igor Rostislavovich Shafarevich. He was a brilliant mathematician, besides being a political dissident in the USSR from the 1960s to the 1980s. Like his pupil Piatetski-Shapiro, he was dismissed from his post for defending dissidents. Despite the fact that any Russian looking casually at his name would probably guess that he was Jewish (Russian surnames ending in -ovich or -evich or -skii are generally thought to reveal either Polish or Jewish ancestry, that is, -owicz, -iewicz, -ski), he was Russian Orthodox and a conservative Christian philosopher, part of a long Russian tradition. Here is a nice memorial essay by a British guy with a sense of humor.

The problem about him is that he looks antisemitic to some people, but not to others. (The British guy just mentioned is one of the doubters.) The controversy arose when an essay he had written (from internal evidence, during the 1970s or 1980s) called "Russophobia" got published. Here is an example of the reaction to it.

I hadn't read the essay until it came up in the course of my current work. I couldn't find a downloadable full translation of it, but I made the following translation of just one paragraph. You can decide for yourself whether this reflects antisemitism. My own view is that it might not be exactly that, but it borders on antisemitism, and it is wrong on one very important point: Religion is NOT the foundation of the State of Israel. Its constitution is not based on the Old Testament commandments or dietary laws. Its basis is Jewish ethnicity. The Nazis had in their midst hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people who were of Jewish ancestry, but to whom Judaism was dead as a religion, and the same was true in Russia. Indeed---I have the word of a Jewish émigré for this---Jewish boys born in the USSR were not even routinely circumcised. Israel was set up as a refuge state for people who were suffering because of their Jewish ethnicity, not because they practiced the rituals of Judaism. OK, I've said my piece. Here's the paragraph (about one-third of the way through the essay).
Igor Shafarevich wrote: There is only one people about whose problems we hear nearly every day. Jewish national emotions inflame both our country and the whole world: they affect negotiations over disarmament, trade agreements, and the international relations of scholars; they provoke demonstrations and sit-down strikes, and they pop up in almost every conversation. The “Jewish question” has acquired an unbelievable power over minds, eclipsing the problems of the Ukrainians, the Estonians, the Armenians and the Crimean Tatars. Meanwhile the existence of a “Russian question” doesn’t appear to be recognized. The fact that the authors we have examined [above] are often influenced by strong nationalist Jewish feelings is confirmed by many properties of this literature. For example, by the position occupied by the questions that are now agitating the Jewish nationalist movement: the problem of emigration and the fear of antisemitism—these arise in almost every work. Another sign is even more universal and characteristic. These works might give the impression that the national aspect of life in general is foreign and even antipathetic their authors. But here is a striking fact: Although those authors are for the most part Jews, they NEVER attempt to apply to their own people and ITS government the reproaches they address to Russians in Russia. For example, almost all the authors accuse the Russians of “messianism,” of pride in being “chosen.” Whether Russians actually possess such characteristics and how strong they are is debatable. But, after all, “Messiah” is not a Russian word! Berdyaev said that any messianism is merely an imitation of what is Jewish. It is the Jews for whom the concept of themselves as the “Chosen People” and the expectation of the Messiah forms the indisputable basis of their religion, and religion is the foundation of the state of Israel, yet none of these authors sees anything unhealthy or unnatural in THAT.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by VFX » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:49 pm

You have a great discourse here and speak of political dissidents until you speak of the "Nazis" could I suggest you refrain from this emotive out-speaking and use the more correct term National Socialist. I have found in all your posts you speak rationally and build up to the Nazi stuff where I see your eyes gleam red, your heart beats as you psyche yourself up. You think you know what National Socialism is but you do not.
It is clear we can read your obvious style from intellectual to political in one sentence. You do not fool anyone least of all Monty.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by NathanC » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:17 pm

Another point against the valid but overstated claim that Czarist persecution made Jews support Bolshevism was the circumstances of the Czar and his family's murder.

Despite what some idiots continue to believe, it was not "the Jews" who killed the Czar and his family, but an assassination squad of mixed ethnicity. One of these men, Yurovsky, was "ethnically" Jewish, but had converted. Historical research at the time and in the present convincingly suggest that, instead of a mob of vengeful Jews descending on the Czar and murdering him, the murder was a spur of the moment decision carried out on local initiative. The Czech legion was getting closer and closer to Yekaterinburg where the Czar was being held, and the unstable Bolshevik government, embroiled in civil war, was worried that the Czar could be captured or released. Lenin and Sverdlov issued an order for the Czar to be tried, but the Yekaterinburg Bolsheviks acted on their own initiative and murdered him and his family, instead. This was to avoid the risk of capture, and not to get revenge for pogroms.

It's correct to claim that Czarist persecution made Jews support the February Revolution and to a somewhat lesser extent, the October Revolution, but generalizing and blaming the Revolutions themselves on this persecution, is an oversimplification. The Antisemites mostly exaggerated this factor to disguise the other factors that led to the revolutions. Chiefly, the Czar's failure as a leader, which caused everyone, and not just Jews, to dislike him and seek his overthrow.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:47 pm

NathanC wrote: It's correct to claim that Czarist persecution made Jews support the February Revolution and to a somewhat lesser extent, the October Revolution, but generalizing and blaming the Revolutions themselves on this persecution, is an oversimplification. The Antisemites mostly exaggerated this factor to disguise the other factors that led to the revolutions. Chiefly, the Czar's failure as a leader, which caused everyone, and not just Jews, to dislike him and seek his overthrow.
Quite right. Even more than Nikolai, his Danish wife Aleksandra was hated, especially after she took up with Rasputin. I have on my shelf a book that I read a few years ago, entitled "23 steps down", which refers to the staircase to the basement of the Ipatiev house where the murders took place as a metaphor for the 23 years of Nikolai's reign. It is especially merciless about the horrendous casualties associated with the coronation. It also gives an example of Aleksandra's lame attempts to write Russian. (She was hopeless; she and "Nicky" communicated in English.) And it reports one of the members of the firing squad boasting that he sexually molested her after the killings.
Last edited by Upton_O_Goode on Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:40 pm

Just for information sake, the Soviet Administrative Structure (Kotkin):
The Party Congress (supposedly the highest body)
Party Conference (essentially powerless)
Central Committee (ruling body between Congresses)
The Politburo (eventually took over the ruling functions of the Central Committee)
The Orgburo (handled personnel decisions)
The Secretariat (the basis of Stalin’s dictatorship)

The Secretariat and the Orgburo with their local equivalents were the apparatus that ran numerous departments with full time workers (apparatchiks).

The Central Control Commission investigated party members until 1934 when it changed to a state body known as the Worker’s and Peasant’s Inspectorate.

The Executive Branch or Council of People’s Commisars was the cabinet style government with the equivalent of a prime minister as chairman (Lenin, Rykov, Molotov and finally Stalin). The councilors headed their own commisariats like foreign affairs, the army, navy, NKVD, etc.

There were also the Soviets spread throughout the country. The members were “elected” and met in the Congress of the Soviets. It lacked any real power. It had its own Central Committee and the chairman was the technical head of state.

Workers enrolled in trade unions who served not them but the state.

Added this to make it easier to refer back to.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by NathanC » Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:54 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Just for information sake, the Soviet Administrative Structure (Kotkin):
The Party Congress (supposedly the highest body)
Party Conference (essentially powerless)
Central Committee (ruling body between Congresses)
The Politburo (eventually took over the ruling functions of the Central Committee)
The Orgburo (handled personnel decisions)
The Secretariat (the basis of Stalin’s dictatorship)

The Secretariat and the Orgburo with their local equivalents were the apparatus that ran numerous departments with full time workers (apparatchiks).

The Central Control Commission investigated party members until 1934 when it changed to a state body known as the Worker’s and Peasant’s Inspectorate.

The Executive Branch or Council of People’s Commisars was the cabinet style government with the equivalent of a prime minister as chairman (Lenin, Rykov, Molotov and finally Stalin). The councilors headed their own commisariats like foreign affairs, the army, navy, NKVD, etc.

There were also the Soviets spread throughout the country. The members were “elected” and met in the Congress of the Soviets. It lacked any real power. It had its own Central Committee and the chairman was the technical head of state.

Workers enrolled in trade unions who served not them but the state.

Added this to make it easier to refer back to.
Something worth noting: Kaganovich was the head of the Orgburo, while Sergio Orjonikidze was the head of the Central Control Commission. Orjonikidze was Stalin's fellow Georgian and close friend, and one of the few people who could stand up to him. His Suicide, which Stalin may or may not have engineered or influenced, removed one of the last possible sources of resistance to Stalin's dictatorship.

Kotkin mentioned that Orjonikidze and Kaganovich were close friends. Given their similar lines of work, Kaganovich being the HR Guy (Orgburo) and Orjonikidze being the head of Internal affairs (Central Control Commission), it makes sense that they would interact and be "close". Orjonikidze's suicide would be the beginning of Kaganovich's long but inevitable decline into irrelevance.

This might be true on paper, but in practice, Stalin called all the shots. The Party Congress was just for show since they all automatically agreed with Stalin any way.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Sergey_Romanov » Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:12 pm

BRoI wrote:
BRoI wrote:
Aaron Richards wrote:
...but I would like your input you have on the person of Robert Wilton and his infamous list that gets copy-pasted a zillion times.
People have been C&Ping it since 1921. A 1921 C&P, I consulted in the Houses of Parliament archive [...]

The then-president of the Assembly of the League of Nations said the information was reliable, according to the British Minister at the Hague, Sir Ronald William Graham.

http://www.portcullis.parliament.uk/Cal ... %2F8&pos=1
My fault. I was misremembering my own 2015 theory, but I now see the theory was wrong anyway.

The list in the Houses of Parliament archives isn't C&P from Wilton, nor is it based on Wilton [which is what I believed in 2015].

Wilton's so-called "list" was only published in the 1921 French edition, it doesn't appeared in the US [1920], UK [1920], or Russian-language [1923] editions. The IHR took it from the French edition and included it in the English editions the organisation published in the 1990s—which is the version frequently C&P.

Wilton's postscriptum in the French edition is dated 4 August 1921, whereas the list in the Houses of Parliament archive is a translation made and forwarded to London on 12 February 1921.

This list was privately passed to Sir Ronald William Graham by Herman van Karnebeek along with another document which is signed by the recently-relieved Dutch Consul in Moscow, Mr. P. J. Wap. He surely must be the source of the information contained within the list.

Here's my [blurred] photos of the list and covering letter. IIRC, there are typos in this translation [figures don't add up to totals], but the factually inaccurate claims, e.g. Lenin's Jewish mum, might be more than typos and actually appear in the original Dutch document.

Image
Image
Image

The original list should be in the Dutch National Archives in the Hague.
A similar but deviating report dated to 6 days later is in Bendersky's "Jewish Threat".
MIDreport.jpg
I wonder how the numbers changed in just a few days, heh.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Darren Wilshak » Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:30 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:
often wonder if his character became reflected physically as he grew older. I found a pic of him taken during WWI - he appeared to be an average looking man, who looked a bit like a character in an old Hollywood Hardboiled detective movie. And yet by 1933 he was a hideous, deformed, evil dwarf. It's like all those years of dirty deeds had caused him to become more like himself in the end.
Drink and drug abuse as well.
That's going to hollow you out, Picture of Dorian Grey style.

Edit:

Oops as you remarked, Upton...

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:26 am

Il'ya Al'tman's study of the Holocaust in the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, where important parts of the republic were never occupied yet 145,000 of the up to 160,000 Jews under occupation perished, leads him to conclude that

- given the ethnic makeup of the RSFSR (mostly lacking large minority communities), the Germans found that the strategy of fostering interethnic divisions and hostility did not work there
- the Nazi occupiers adopted an intensified strategy of using the concept of Judeo-Bolshevism to detach the bulk of the population from loyalty to the USSR
- Nazi propaganda in the occupied parts of the RSFSR featured Judeo-Bolshevism and the "danger" was used to recruit collaborators
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:55 am

I'm just starting to read Goldhagen's book and wonder how the two "memes" of "Jewish" and "Bolshevik" came together and what the relative strength of each was. Goldhagen emphasizes the anti-Semitism and indeed gives me some pause, as, reading it, I realize that anti-Semitism in the West persists even in the total absence of Jews in the population. It dies down to its root, as it has now done throughout North America and Western Europe, but the root never dies, and can flare up again without warning. That fact makes me uneasy.

But how IMPORTANT was it in the 1930s, when, as Goldhagen shows, there was already a solid base of anti-Semitism to build on, for the Nazis to add the fear of Bolshevism? Just how frightened were Germans of Bolshevism? While fear of Bolshevism remained high in the US all through the first half of the twentieth century, nevertheless a lot of Americans became Communist during the 1930s, as capitalism appeared to be a total failure. Certainly, the same was true in Germany, where the Communist Party was relatively stronger than in the US. I suppose, though, it was still a minority party, and could be used to whip up support for right-wing policies, just as was done in the US. Its existence provided "proof" that the threat was real.

And then, since the Jews were already regarded as "other," the Bolshevik label was easy to hang around their neck. If there had been a fear of cannibals, it would have been equally easy to label the Jews as cannibals. Or so it seems to me.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:21 pm

The first couple of pages of this thread get into the roots of the concept of Judeo-Bolshevism, which was not a Nazi invention, to be clear (e.g., żydokomuna in Poland and similar usages elsewhere; the concept has been durable on the nationalist right and lingers today - I'll be posting on that in the near future).

Fear of Communism in Weimar: recall that on the heels of the Russian Revolution came the revolutionary days at the end of the war in Germany, Red Munich, and, with Bela Kun etc a sense of a rising red tide. As to a comparison with the US, the CPUSA had at most 100,000 members in the US and did help to build the CIO and some broad political groups but had virtually no electoral presence. In Weimar, OTOH, the situation was very different: the KPD over the period '28-'33 between 12% and 17% of the seats in the Reichstag (their peak being the last free elections in November '32), an armed paramilitary, a heavy presence in the labor movement, cultural presence in both working class neighborhoods and German intellectual life, and an ally to the East in the USSR and through the Comintern, which during the Third Period was revolutionary as heck.

One thing I've disagreed with in this thread is an easy dichotomy that has Judeo-Bolshevism applying to the Soviet Union and the East, not to Germany. We have to take seriously the trauma of Germany's defeat in the war, the bitter paranoia of the nationalist movements, including the Friekorps, the way many on the nationalist right attributed threats to their conception of the German nation to Jewish machinations, and the continued anger through the early republic period of the working class including attempts of the nascent communists at staging uprisings and seizing power. And then the second shock of the depression. But the roots of the Nazi movement lie in Munich where the post WWI events were especially traumatic for the nationalist right and had them thinking already in terms of a Jewish-Communist threat.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:01 pm

Hans-Heinrich Nolte, citing Heinz-Dietrich Lowe, says that a thesis was developed in the early 1890s in Russia that both capitalism and socialism had a source in the Jewish people.i should have mentioned that one source for the linkage of Jews and Communism for the Nazis was the community of counter-revolutionary white emigres from Russia who came to Germany after the civil war, many of them finding their way to Munich.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:46 pm

In postwar testimony, Hillel K. - who fled Kraków as the Germans came into the city in 1939 for Mielec - recalled how "Part of the population changed from one day to the other, to Volksdeutsche." These Volksdeutsche locals welcomed the German invaders, building "triumphal arches" and using the Hitler greeting. Just sayin'.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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