Hunts Majdanek film.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:02 pm



Just to add, the actual layout, of course, features the bunker moved several feet to the east (right) and that^ canopy roof also seem larger than it was actually built. I'd guesstimate moving what seems to be a drawn-in slant/hip end* to the fifth post line from the right, shortening the roof by two rows of posts in the east.


* However, it would seem no slanted hip end had been built at the time this image was taken:



What's also interesting about that one^, it seems to show part of a "floor to ceiling" wall up to the canopy of some sort...

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby BRoI » Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:25 pm

SM wrote:"Is this the only way to identify the not-quite-completed barrack as 42?"

I believe so.

"Do you have a quotation on this? I don't have the judgment and am curious as to what's said?"

Sure:
10. Selektionen zur Vergasung

Die furchtbarste Belastung für die Häftlinge, insbesondere für die jüdischen Menschen, stellten die im Spätherbst des Jahres 1942 eingeleiteten und vor allem im Frühjahr und im Sommer 1943 durchgeführten Selektionen zur Tötung durch Vergasung dar.

Von Anfang an waren für das KL Majdanek ein Krematorium und sogenannte Entlausungsanlagen vorgesehen, deren Fertigstellung sich aber wie das gesamte Bauvorhaben erheblich verzögerte. Ähnlich wie das Lager ursprünglich als "Kriegsgefangenenlager" ausgegeben wurde, obwohl es in Wirklichkeit als Konzentrationslager geplant war, diente auch der Begriff "Entlausungsanlage" als Tarnbezeichnung. Der bereits erwähnte Befehl Himmlers vom

19.7.1942 führte nämlich dazu, dass das Lager neben den ursprünglichen Funktionen eines Zwangsarbeits- und Durchgangslagers zeitweilig auch die Aufgabe eines Vernichtungslagers zu erfüllen hatte und mit seinen Vergasungsanlagen tatsächlich erfüllt hat.

Im Inneren des bereits erwähnten Badebarackengebäudes bestanden sowohl Vorrichtungen für die Vergasung mit Kohlenmonoxyd als auch mit Zyklon B, einer in warmer Luft in Gas zerfallenden salzförmigen Zyan Wasserstoffverbindung. Es handelte sich dabei um mindestens drei aus Beton errichtete Kammern mit abgedichteten Stahltüren und von zum Teil unterschiedlicher Grösse. Das Fassungsvermögen der einen - grossen - Kammer betrug bis zu 300, das der beiden kleineren Kammern jeweils bis zu 150 Menschen. Das in Stahl flaschen befindliche Kohlenmonoxyd wurde von einem, vor einer der beiden kleinen Kammern gelegenen Vorraum aus durch ein Leitungssystem in die Kammern eingeführt. Mit Hilfe von Handräder-Ventilen im Vorraum wurde der Vergasungsvorgang gesteuert und konnte zugleich durch ein kleines Fenster in der Wand ungefährdet beobachtet werden. Die Vergasung mit dem in Blechbüchsen enthaltenen Zyklon B erfolgte in der Weise, dass der Inhalt der Büchsen durch in der Decke angebrachte, fest verschliessbare Einfüllstutzen direkt in die Kammern oder in die ausserdem installierten sogenannten Feuerlufterhitzer geschüttet wurde, mit denen die insbesondere bei niedrigen Aussentemperaturen für die Entstehung des Gases notwendige Warmluft in den Kammern erzeugt wurde.

Ob sich - wie von der polnischen zeitgeschichtlichen Forschung angenommen wird - im Bereich der Badebaracken noch eine weitere provisorische Gaskammer befunden hat, und ob ferner auch auf dem Zwischenfeld I sowie im sogenannten neuen Krematorium Vergasungs-einrichtungen bestanden haben, konnte nicht eindeutig geklärt werden. Die Beweisaufnahme hat hierzu keine völlig zweifelsfreien Erkenntnisse erbracht.

Wann genau im Lager erstmals Menschen durch Vergasung getötet worden sind, hat sich ebenfalls nicht mehr genau feststellen lassen. Sicher ist lediglich, dass die Vergasungsanlage spätestens ab Oktober 1942 "betriebsbereit" war und von da an bis in den Herbst des Jahres 1943 hinein auch benutzt wurde.

Die Opfer der Vergasungen waren Juden aller Altersstufen und verschiedener Nationalität, insbesondere Mütter mit Kindern, Alte, Kranke und Verletzte sowie die sonst als nicht bzw. nicht mehr voll arbeitsfähig erscheinenden Menschen. Wer zu dieser Gruppe der von vornherein durch die "Endlösung" Betroffenen gehörte, oder wessen Arbeitskraft noch eine Zeitlang für das NS-Regime genutzt werden sollte, entschied das SS-Lagerpersonal weitgehend nach eigenem Gutdünken. Die dabei angelegten Massstäbe hatten mit objektiven Kriterien wenig zu tun und wurden im wesentlichen durch die aussondemden SS-Angehörigen selbst bestimmt. Der als Zeuge vernommene ehemalige polnische Häftlingsarzt Dr. Now. hat hierfür in der Hauptverhandlung den Ausdruck "Lagerstrassen-Diagnose" geprägt und die Art der Massstäbe damit nach der Überzeugung der Schwurgerichtskammer zutreffend charakterisiert. Ob in einzelnen Fällen auch nicht-jüdische Häftlinge in Vergasungsaktionen mit einbezogen worden sind, zum Beispiel dann, wenn sie infolge ihres Alters oder ihres dauerhaft schlechten Gesundheitszustandes als sogenannte Muselmänner oder Gammel angesehen wurden, hat sich nicht sicher feststellen lassen; mit einer gewissen Wahrscheinlichkeit war es jedoch jedenfalls zeitweise so. Einigermassen seines Lebens sicher sein konnte jedenfalls nur, wer jung und kräftig war, keine Verletzungen oder Krankheitssymptome am Körper aufwies und über eine eiserne Gesundheit verfügte.

Entsprechend diesen "Massstäben" wurden die jüdischen Menschen bereits bei der Ankunft im Lager "behandelt". Wenn die Abfertigung noch am selben Tage erfolgen konnte, wurden sie in dem bereits erwähnten sogenannten Rosengarten zusammengetrieben; war das nicht möglich, war die erste Station gewöhnlich das Zwischenfeld II. Dort fand als erstes eine Trennung nach Geschlechtern statt. Dabei wurden Jugendliche ab etwa 14 Jahren wie Erwachsene behandelt. Zugleich wurden Kinder unter dieser Altersgrenze nebst ihren Müttern oder sonstigen weiblichen Bezugspersonen sowie die älteren Frauen und die älteren Männer abgesondert. Diese Massnahmen wurden zumeist von männlichen SS-Angehörigen und SS~ Aufseherinnen gemeinsam durchgeführt. Wer zur Gruppe der Ausgesonderten kam, wurde in der Regel gleich im Anschluss an die Abfertigung der übrigen Menschen der Vergasung zu-geführt.

Diejenigen, welche die "Vorsortierung" überstanden hatten, waren damit aber noch keineswegs der Aufnahme in das Lager und damit zunächst ihres Lebens sicher; vielmehr hatten sie sich anschliessend einer gewissermassen individuellen weiteren Selektion zu unterziehen. Sie wurden gruppenweise in die Badebaracke getrieben, in der sie sich in einem Vorraum völlig entkleiden, ihre Kleidungsstücke nach deren Art auf bestimmte Wäschehaufen legen und alle Wertsachen ohne jede Kennzeichnung, wem sie gehörten, in bereitgestellte Kisten werfen mussten. Dabei wurden sie von männlichen SS-Angehörigen und, soweit es sich um weibliche Häftlinge handelte, auch von SS-Aufseherinnen bewacht und nicht selten nach am Körper, insbesondere im After oder in der Scheide versteckten Wertsachen durchsucht. Manchmal wurden ihnen auch die Haare abgeschnitten; ausserdem mussten sie vielfach in einem Bottich mit Desinfektionslösung untertauchen. Nach der Entkleidung wurden die Menschen gezwungen, nackt vor den SS-Angehörigen hinzutreten, der die individuelle Selektion durchführte; dieser wies sie nach rechts oder links und bestimmte sie damit entweder endgültig zur Aufnahme in das Lager oder auch noch zur Vergasung. Zumeist wurde diese Entscheidung durch einen der Lagerärzte getroffen; gelegentlich soll das aber auch den sogenannten SDGs oder anderen Kommandanturangehörigen überlassen worden sein. Diejenigen Häftlinge, deren Leben als vorerst erhaltenswert eingestuft worden war, wurden sodann im Eiltempo durch einen Duschraum und danach weiter in die Bekleidungskammer gejagt. Dort wurde ihnen ohne Rücksicht auf Grösse und Figur Häftlingskleidung bzw. entsprechend gekennzeichnete Zivilkleidung zugewiesen. In der Regel erfolgte dabei zugleich eine Registrierung der Namen und die Zuteilung der auf einem Stück Stoff befindlichen Häftlingsnummer, die anschliessend zusammen mit den bereits erwähnten "Winkeln" in Brusthöhe auf die Vorderseite der Kleidung genäht werden musste. Dann wurden die Häftlinge von Blockführem oder Aufseherinnen in Empfang genommen und kolonnenweise in die einzelnen Felder des Schutzhaftlagers überführt. Die vor dem Duschraum ausgesonderten Menschen wurden ebenso wie die bereits zu Anfang aussortierten Opfer durch Vergasung getötet.

Die Aussonderung der als "Arbeitskraft" nicht brauchbar erscheinenden jüdischen Menschen bei den "Ankunfts-Selektionen" fand ihre Fortsetzung in demselben Zweck dienenden Selektionen auf den einzelnen Feldern des Schutzhaftlagers, im SS-Jargon des Lagers zynisch "Himmelskommando" genannt. Diese Selektionen erfolgten besonders häufig im Frühjahr/-Sommer 1943, und zwar in unregelmässigen Abständen und auf unterschiedliche Art. Durchgeführt wurden sie teils durch eine Art "Kommission", die meist aus einem der SS-Lager-ärzte und einer Gruppe weiterer männlicher bzw. weiblicher SS-Angehöriger bestand, teils durch das SS-Aufsichtspersonal der einzelnen Felder allein. Die Opfer waren kranke, kränklich wirkende, entkräftete, verletzte und aus sonstigen Gründen für nicht mehr "lebenswert" gehaltene jüdische Menschen.

Die Vergasung der Opfer verlief durchweg immer in der gleichen Weise. Die zum Tode bestimmten Häftlinge wurden in das Badebarackengebäude gebracht und dort nach der Entkleidung in eine der Gaskammern getrieben. Sobald die Tür hinter ihnen luftdicht verschlossen war, wurde das Kohlenmonoxyd bzw. Zyklon B in die Kammer geleitet. Beide Gifte führten zu einer Lähmung der Atmungsorgane und damit zu einem qualvollen Erstickungstod. Bei der nur in der Anfangsphase der Vergasungen erfolgten Verwendung des Kohlenmonoxyd dauerte der TötungsVorgang in der Regel etwas länger als bei Benutzung von Zyklon B. Auch dieses Gift "wirkte" jedoch nicht sofort, sondern erst nach einer gewissen Zeit, weil die Wirkung erst in dem Masse eintrat, in welchem das Zyanid-Salz durch die langsam ansteigende Raumtemperatur in einen gasförmigen Zustand zerfiel. Sobald nach Meinung des jeweils für die Beaufsichtigung des VergasungsVorganges zuständigen SS-Angehörigen der Tod aller Opfer eingetreten war, wurden die Stahltüren weit geöffnet, so dass das Gas entweichen konnte. Danach wurden die Leichen von einem besonderen Häftlingskommando herausgeholt, auf Handkarren oder Fahrzeuge verladen und entweder zur Verbrennung in das alte bzw. das neue Krematorium oder zu vorbereiteten Gruben bzw. Verbrennungsstätten im Aussenbereich des Lagers und der umliegenden Wälder geschafft.

Die massenweise Selektierung von Menschen zur Tötung durch Vergasung war im KL Majdanek spätestens ab Anfang des Jahres 1943 allgemein bekannt. Das hatte zur Folge, dass eine ganze Reihe von Häftlingen auch solche, unter selektionsähnlichen Umständen durchgeführte Aussonderungen für Selektionen zur Vergasung hielt, die in Wirklichkeit anderen Zwecken, und zwar hauptsächlich der Verlegung in andere Lager dienten. Dies gilt vor allem für die Auswahl der weiblichen Häftlinge für die bereits erwähnten Transporte zwischen Ende Juni und Ende August 1943 in die KL Auschwitz und Ravensbrück und in das Zwangsarbeitslager Skarzysko-Kamienna, die in der Weise erfolgte, dass sich die dafür in Betracht kommenden weiblichen Häftlinge entkleiden und in der Waschbaracke des Frauenfeldes nackt in Anwesenheit von SS-Aufseherinnen einer "Begutachtung" durch einen der Lagerärzte unterziehen mussten. Anders als bei in ähnlicher Art durchgeführten "Tötungs-Selektionen" ging es hierbei jedoch nicht um die Aussonderung von arbeitsunfähigen, sondern von "besonders arbeitsfähig" erscheinenden Menschen.

Image
enlarged version: http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/f581c2eb47e953a25f043096f1dbb9fb.jpg



"Side issue: I've not read Schwindt. How does she deal with room "IV"?"


Mattogno reviewed her book [from his p.255]

As for Chamber IV, the only one labeled as a “gas chamber,” Schwindt excludes any homicidal use of it on the basis of arguments already made by us in the present study. Shortly afterwards, however, she reconsiders this, but only to reject it again: an amazing clarity of thought (pp. 166f.):

“Yet it cannot be excluded completely that humans were gassed for a period of time in Chamber IV. The window may not have existed initially or could have been protected by a grate, for instance. It is moreover possible that the gassings were performed at night in order to solve the problem of ventilation. Yet still, it is unlikely that Chamber IV was used for the killing of humans, since the camp had three gas chambers at its disposal in a separate building. Another indication for the use of Chamber IV for the disinfection of clothing is the doors, which do not open outward but rather inward and which moreover could not be locked.


Schwindt's conclusion on the gas chambers at Majdanek is this (p. 169):

“One can assume that three gas chambers existed in Majdanek, in which humans were murdered.”



"Operational for? But not actually used for Zyklon B gassing?"

She claims the entire bunker was designed and built for homicidal purposes. There was not late-stage change of plan as far as Schwindt's concerned.

"waren die Gaskammern jedoch von vornherein, seit Mai 1942, für die Entwesung mit Blausäure geplant. Spätestens zu dem Zeitpunkt, da entschieden wurde, die Gaskammern in Majdanek, nicht im Flughafen-Lager zu errichten, waren sie für die Tötung von Menschen geplant. Dies geht auch aus dem sogenannten Gerstein-Bericht hervor." [p.160, note 208]


Remember that Kranz is effectively the orthodox contrarian on ZB homicidal gassings in Chamber 3. It's to his credit and is clearly based on an honest assessment that the old claim of *ZB being thrown in overheads of the victims before the door was closed* being absurd, and the claim that *ZB could be poured into the heater* is impossible. Every other orthodox writer on the camp claims C3 was used for ZB homicidal gassings.


Is this inference or based on documents/testimony?

The two 75cbm chambers were built to Degesch specifications; this assertion is based on documents found in a British investigation file on Testa.

The part about Globocnik, Koegel, an August decision, and Action 14f13, is all inference.


Are there document or testimony references for Brack's role throughout this scenario?

No, that's just me speculating. The only physical evidence connecting Brack to CO gassings at Majdaenk are the five canisters found by the Soviets that bore his pseudonym "Jennerwein".

Michael Tregenza in "Belzec Death Camp" in Michael Marrus et al. The Nazi Holocaust Part 6, Vol. 2, says that Helmuth Kallmeyer installed the CO gas chamber at Majdanek in May 1942. His source is "Konzentrationslager der Waffen-SS: Majdanek (Frankfurt, 1975)", which appears to be just a 21 page booklet put out by a political organisation, so not a great source.

The Wikipedia [yes I know] entry cites a few sources that might put Kallmeyer in Lublin in the summer of 1942, but goes on to say he never admitted to any involvement with gassings during his interrogations/appearance as a witnesses at the NMT Doctors trial. The records of that trial are all online so I could try and confirm this fairly easily.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmut_Kallmeyer


"clearly, if this scenario is right, a further decision was made outside the scope of 14f13 type usage, around October, to conduct selections (and gassings) of Jews on their arrival to the camp. Right?"

Well, I'm sceptical there were such mass-gassings at Majdanek. IIRC, even Kranzs claims these transports were not gassed immediately on arrival [due to the relatively small gassing capacity], but were entered into the camp [if not registered], and then gassed in batches over the following days/weeks.

I'm not saying it never happened, but I'm leaning towards the only gassings at Majdaenk being in some way comparable to Action 14f13 gassings.


A second question is why the use of the gas chambers was discontinued around the time of Erntefest, instead of being pressed into service for the so-called death transports and other small-scale liquidation actions that followed?

Perhaps Globocink ordered for all gassings in Lublin to be halted as AR wound down.
Last edited by BRoI on Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby BRoI » Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:29 pm

Thanks for *pointing me in the right direction* re the August 42 drawing, scrmbldggs.

As you mentioned, it has implications for my earlier post on the N-S vs. S-N route.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:16 pm

Thanks, Mailänder describes Schwindt as a chamber "IV" advocate. I need to look that up - it is in a footnote.

The biggest area of disagreement is on gassings of Jews on arrival.
BRoI wrote:
"clearly, if this scenario is right, a further decision was made outside the scope of 14f13 type usage, around October, to conduct selections (and gassings) of Jews on their arrival to the camp. Right?"

Well, I'm sceptical there were such mass-gassings at Majdanek. IIRC, even Kranzs claims these transports were not gassed immediately on arrival [due to the relatively small gassing capacity], but were entered into the camp [if not registered], and then gassed in batches over the following days/weeks.

I'm not saying it never happened, but I'm leaning towards the only gassings at Majdaenk being in some way comparable to Action 14f13 gassings.

I will pull something together on this later. At a high level, from memory, there are two phases of mass arrival gassings that seem clear from testimonies (fall 1942 clearance of Majdan Tatarski and other local Jews - I have to look up more detail as my memory is {!#%@} today; Warsaw Jews in spring 1943). I think also the Bialystok Jewish transports. There are a number of testimonies describing separation of Jews on arrival mostly prior to entry to the bathhouses but in some cases inside the bathhouses - those held in the Rosengarten, kept there whilst the Jews selected for entry into the camp were bathed/showered, were for the most part gassed. I once used the word "lumpy" to describe arrival gassings - they were not ongoing, not on the scale of Birkenau or even the Chełmno mass murder. This character of Majdanek also seems to have meant that there was never a really firm processing routine - so we see a lot of variation in the testimonies, even beyond the norm for testimonies. But the term "mass murder" still applies, even though we're not talking about 6,000/day or anything on that scale, because we're dealing with 100s and sometimes 1000 or so arrivals. A number of the testimonies describe the facilities as inadequate for the numbers - and Jews being parked on one occasion, during the Warsaw transports, in Interfield III and on others, by inference, in a field north of the bathhouses/bunkers. Kranz surely has the fall 1942 and Warsaw actions in his 12,000 number.

BRoI wrote:
A second question is why the use of the gas chambers was discontinued around the time of Erntefest, instead of being pressed into service for the so-called death transports and other small-scale liquidation actions that followed?

Perhaps Globocink ordered for all gassings in Lublin to be halted as AR wound down.

That's the best I can think of too. Around the time of Ernefest, which is really the same as at the end of Einsatz Reinhard; Erntefest was meant to conclude, mostly, the Jewish aspect of Lublin operations.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Denying-History » Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:15 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Thanks, Mailänder describes Schwindt as a chamber "IV" advocate. I need to look that up - it is in a footnote.


This is the footnote you are looking for, I don't know the page though as I don't have a hard copy. I only have it as an Ibook.

79. Even if Chamber IV was used primarily to disinfect clothing, it cannot be ruled out that people were gassed there. Schwindt, Majdanek, 166ff.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:46 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Thanks, Mailänder describes Schwindt as a chamber "IV" advocate. I need to look that up - it is in a footnote.


This is the footnote you are looking for, I don't know the page though as I don't have a hard copy. I only have it as an Ibook.

79. Even if Chamber IV was used primarily to disinfect clothing, it cannot be ruled out that people were gassed there. Schwindt, Majdanek, 166ff.

Thanks, yes, that's it, on p 342
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:04 am

OK, I’ve now read through the Düsseldorf excerpt a couple times. Thanks for posting such a large amount of text. My link to the Yad Vashem reader view of the judgment takes me nowhere these days . . .
Die furchtbarste Belastung für die Häftlinge, insbesondere für die jüdischen Menschen, stellten die im Spätherbst des Jahres 1942 eingeleiteten und vor allem im Frühjahr und im Sommer 1943 durchgeführten Selektionen zur Tötung durch Vergasung dar.

To state the obvious, this paragraph encapsulates my view of the gassings on arrival when it speaks of “the Jewish people” being subjected to “selections introduced in the late autumn of 1942, and especially in the spring and summer of 1943, for killing by means of gassing.” If that’s orthodox, so be it. OTOH, I do not agree with this statement, “the term ‘delousing plant’ served as camouflage,” as it is made in the judgment - it is stated far too categorically and broadly there. e.g., testimony of Reinartz. Same for the July date given in the next paragraph.
What is certain is that the gasification plant was “operational” at the latest from October 1942 onwards, and from then on was also used in the autumn of 1943.

I have to look this up - I think there is some testimony to an earlier gassing. Not sure what to make of that, given the time line we all seem to agree on for completion of the bunker.

I’ve already posted too much on the arrival-bathhouse processing; it should be clear that I have some disagreements with the description in the judgment.

I don't see the judgment referring exactly to 41 being connected to the bunker but rather a discussion of the interior of the bunker. Some of the wording is confusing, though.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby BRoI » Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:49 pm

SM wrote:I don't see the judgment referring exactly to 41 being connected to the bunker but rather a discussion of the interior of the bunker. Some of the wording is confusing, though.

Here's the bit I was basing it on again:

Im Inneren des bereits erwähnten Badebarackengebäudes bestanden sowohl Vorrichtungen für die Vergasung mit Kohlenmonoxyd als auch mit Zyklon B, einer in warmer Luft in Gas zerfallenden salzförmigen Zyan Wasserstoffverbindung. Es handelte sich dabei um mindestens drei aus Beton errichtete Kammern mit abgedichteten Stahltüren und von zum Teil unterschiedlicher Grösse. [pp. 403-4]


And where the bathing barracks were "already mentioned":

Unmittelbar hinter dem Eingang zum Schutzhaftlager stand, vom Eingang aus gesehen, auf der rechten Seite der Lagerstrasse gegenüber dem Feld I ein hufeisenförmiges Gebäude, das aus der Verbindung von zwei ursprünglich selbständigen Baracken entstanden und dessen Innenhof zum Lager hin offen war. Es handelte sich dabei um die sogenannte Badebaracke. Das diesem Gebäudekomplex zur Strasse Lublin-Chelm hin vorgelagerte Gelände war gesondert mit Stacheldraht eingezäunt und wurde in der Lagersprache insbesondere von den jüdischen Häftlingen "Rosengarten" genannt. [p.399]


8. Die weitere Geschichte des Lagers bis heute

Die sowjetischen Truppen benutzten das Lager nach der Eroberung eine Zeitlang ihrerseits als Kriegsgefangenenlager. Danach war das Lager zunächst dem Verfall ausgesetzt; noch verwendbare Anlagen, vor allem Baracken und ihre Einrichtungen, wurden in der Folgezeit von der einheimischen Bevölkerung demontiert und aus dem Lagergelände entfernt. Erhalten blieben im wesentlichen nur Baulichkeiten, die aus Mauerwerk oder Beton errichtet waren. Einige Jahre später wurde das Lager von der polnischen Regierung als Museum und Gedenkstätte für die Opfer der NS-Gewaltherrschaft ausgestaltet und zu diesem Zweck teilweise restauriert. Wieder hergestellt wurden im wesentlichen das Feld III, eine Reihe von Baracken entlang der Lagerstrasse, die Umzäunung mit Wachtürmen und ein Teil der Holzverkleidung des Badebaracken-Bereiches. Ob die Restaurierung originalgetreu erfolgt ist, konnte nicht sicher festgestellt werden. [p.402]


The judgment states the Majdanek museum "partially restored" [teilweise restauriert] parts of the camp, and that "a section of wood panelling in the area of the bathing barracks" [ein Teil der Holzverkleidung des Badebaracken-Bereiches] was "wieder hergestellt" [literally: again constructed]!

It finishes with what seems like a disclaimer by stating that the court was unable to determine with certainty whether the restorations were true to the originals.

Considering the wealth of photos and film footage of the bathing barracks and gassing bunker taken in late 1944—never mind the construction documents reproduced by M&G—it's impossible for me to accept that the court couldn't have learnt that the bunker was completely separate from B&D1.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:28 pm

P.399 seems to say they considered what was called the "Badebaracke" a building complex, meaning all of it, no. 41, no. 42, bunker and canopy?

Results of Google translator:

Unmittelbar hinter dem Eingang zum Schutzhaftlager stand, vom Eingang aus gesehen, auf der rechten Seite der Lagerstrasse gegenüber dem Feld I ein hufeisenförmiges Gebäude, das aus der Verbindung von zwei ursprünglich selbständigen Baracken entstanden und dessen Innenhof zum Lager hin offen war.

Immediately behind the entrance to the shelter, from the entrance, on the right side of the camp, opposite the field I, was a horseshoe-shaped building, formed by the combination of two originally independent barracks and its inner courtyard toward the camp Was open.



Es handelte sich dabei um die sogenannte Badebaracke.

It was the so-called bathing barrack.



Das diesem Gebäudekomplex zur Strasse Lublin-Chelm hin vorgelagerte Gelände war gesondert mit Stacheldraht eingezäunt und wurde in der Lagersprache insbesondere von den jüdischen Häftlingen "Rosengarten" genannt.

The area upstream of this building complex to the Lublin-Chelm road was fenced separately with barbed wire and was called in the camp language, especially by the Jewish prisoners "Rosengarten".



That might explain the bunker being described as an "interior part" but not necessarily connected to anything?




ETA The passage in question and a Google translation of it:

"Im Inneren des bereits erwähnten Badebarackengebäudes bestanden sowohl Vorrichtungen für die Vergasung mit Kohlenmonoxyd als auch mit Zyklon B, einer in warmer Luft in Gas zerfallenden salzförmigen Zyan Wasserstoffverbindung. Es handelte sich dabei um mindestens drei aus Beton errichtete Kammern mit abgedichteten Stahltüren und von zum Teil unterschiedlicher Grösse."

In the interior of the bathing-tub building already mentioned, there were devices for the gasification with carbon monoxide as well as with Zyklon B, a salt-like cyan hydrogen compound decomposing in warm air in gas. These were at least three chambers made of concrete with sealed steel doors and some of them of different sizes.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby BRoI » Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:03 pm

That might explain the bunker being described as an "interior part" but not necessarily connected to anything?


scrmbldggs, I agree that it says that the bathing facility was a "horseshoe-shaped building" that had originally been two separate buildings. Therefore, when it states that that the CO/ZB gas chambers were inside the bathing facility, it's not explicitly saying that they were inside B&D1.

But it does explicitly state that the wood-panelling in the area of the bathing barracks was "restored" by the museum. Which can only mean the wooden structure that now connects B&D1 and the bunker.

Okay, it states that they *weren't sure* that it and the other restored features were entirely true to the "originals", but that doesn't negate from the fact the judgment doesn't mention anywhere that the gassing bunker was—or even *might* have been—an entirely separate structure to B&D1 [for which there was a wealth of evidence available to the longest ever Holocaust trial].

The court accepted the Soviet-modification as a "reconstruction", I don't think there's room for contesting that.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:13 pm

Hey BRoI,

Thanks. Right, yeah, I read what you posted from section 10. But I didn’t find the excerpt to be precise or definitive about the point.

You’d written that “the post-war modifications that connected B&D1 with the bunker were passed off as an original part of the facility to the German court.”

The wording in the excerpt is not specific to no. 41 being attached to the bunker (it could be read that way, I suppose, but also other ways). Like scrmbldggs, I noted this sentence: “Im Inneren des bereits erwähnten Badebarackengebäudes bestanden sowohl Vorrichtungen für die Vergasung mit Kohlenmonoxyd als auch mit Zyklon B, einer in warmer Luft in Gas zerfallenden salzförmigen Zyan Wasserstoffverbindung,” which gives an unusual description of where the gassing was conducted (“Badebarackengebäudes” - which seems to place the CO/Zyklon gassing in one of the bathhouses!). I’m pondering scrmbldggs’ reply; for me, the text was just a bit vague.

Where the judgment says, in section 8 you quote just above and which was brought to my attention in the interim, that it could not be determined if the restoration, including restoration of part of the wood panel in the bathhouse area, was done faithfully to the original (“Ob die Restaurierung originalgetreu erfolgt ist, konnte nicht sicher festgestellt werden”) - that implies some skepticism on the court’s part - not necessarily with regard to the bathhouses but in general - about how well the museum was able to match the current features to those present during the war. That wording could refer to the connection panels of no. 41, for sure, but it isn't that much to go on, except that the court was aware that the panels weren't original. Again, I don’t know this history much, but what’s in the judgment only describes what was present at the camp - not what was passed off to the court - and touches on the restoration, about which the court clearly expresses its uncertainty. So I can't read this to say that the restoration was passed off as authentic or accepted as anything but an effort at a restoration, which may have failed, or not.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:36 pm

BRoI wrote:
That might explain the bunker being described as an "interior part" but not necessarily connected to anything?


scrmbldggs, I agree that it says that the bathing facility was a "horseshoe-shaped building" that had originally been two separate buildings. Therefore, when it states that that the CO/ZB gas chambers were inside the bathing facility, it's not explicitly saying that they were inside B&D1.

But it does explicitly state that the wood-panelling in the area of the bathing barracks was "restored" by the museum. Which can only mean the wooden structure that now connects B&D1 and the bunker.

Okay, it states that they *weren't sure* that it and the other restored features were entirely true to the "originals", but that doesn't negate from the fact the judgment doesn't mention anywhere that the gassing bunker was—or even *might* have been—an entirely separate structure to B&D1 [for which there was a wealth of evidence available to the longest ever Holocaust trial].

The court accepted the Soviet-modification as a "reconstruction", I don't think there's room for contesting that.
(my emphasis)

OK, I didn't get into that part... hmm:
"Wieder hergestellt wurden im wesentlichen das Feld III, eine Reihe von Baracken entlang der Lagerstrasse, die Umzäunung mit Wachtürmen und ein Teil der Holzverkleidung des Badebaracken-Bereiches. Ob die Restaurierung originalgetreu erfolgt ist, konnte nicht sicher festgestellt werden."

which Google translates as:
Restored were essentially the field III, a series of barracks along the storage road, the fence with watchtowers and a part of the wooden covering of the bathing bar area. Whether the restoration was done in the original way, could not be determined securely.


and which is a bit funny, but states "a part of the wooden covering of the bathing bar area" without identifying what part(s). That could have meant anything, including the outer cladding of any of the B&Ds?

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:47 pm

But and just for more fun: lets look at this also, the August 1942 blueprint for canopy roof and bunker. What do you make of the double-lined outline of the square just north of 41 and toward the bunker. (Yes, that bunker was moved to the east, but apparently there was some kind of "wall/partition" planned initially?)


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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Denying-History » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:57 am

Not sure if that really looks like a wall... Try looking at the section under it. Sort of just looks like the same old flying roof with a small adjustment on the ends
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:20 am

Denying-History wrote:Not sure if that really looks like a wall... Try looking at the section under it. Sort of just looks like the same old flying roof with a small adjustment on the ends

Sorry, I don't follow?

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Denying-History » Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:23 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Not sure if that really looks like a wall... Try looking at the section under it. Sort of just looks like the same old flying roof with a small adjustment on the ends

Sorry, I don't follow?


It doesn't seem like a wall was intended in this blueprint.

Image
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:29 am

Denying-History wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Not sure if that really looks like a wall... Try looking at the section under it. Sort of just looks like the same old flying roof with a small adjustment on the ends

Sorry, I don't follow?


It doesn't seem like a wall was intended in this blueprint.

Image

You're looking at a (partial) side view that doesn't even take the B&Ds into consideration. It's strictly for the canopy woodwork/framing and position of bunker.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Denying-History » Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:31 am

I'm not all that sure about this idea. It seems like if that were true they would at least provide an indication on the very end that a wall was to be present. It just seems to be an over stretch of the roof which wasn't part of the final construction.

I am not sure why it looks like that on the part theorize a wall... But I don't think a wall was part of the plan.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:57 am

Denying-History wrote:I'm not all that sure about this idea. It seems like if that were true they would at least provide an indication on the very end that a wall was to be present. It just seems to be an over stretch of the roof which wasn't part of the final construction.

I am not sure why it looks like that on the part theorize a wall... But I don't think a wall was part of the plan.

I'm again having difficulties following your description, but if you go back to my post, you'll read "some kind of "wall/partition"" - some kind of divider, it could even be a fence. As to "an indication on the very end", which end? But if you'll look to the very left end/corner at the outline of the canopy roof support (to the left of "Unreiner" running south-north and aligned with the western wall of B&D 42), you'll not only also see a doubled line there, but also what appears to be an opening/possible walk way through that. If so, what could that possibly mean? :-P

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Denying-History » Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:58 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Denying-History wrote:I'm not all that sure about this idea. It seems like if that were true they would at least provide an indication on the very end that a wall was to be present. It just seems to be an over stretch of the roof which wasn't part of the final construction.

I am not sure why it looks like that on the part theorize a wall... But I don't think a wall was part of the plan.

I'm again having difficulties following your description, but if you go back to my post, you'll read "some kind of "wall/partition"" - some kind of divider, it could even be a fence. As to "an indication on the very end", which end? But if you'll look to the very left end/corner at the outline of the canopy roof support (to the left of "Unreiner" running south-north and aligned with the western wall of B&D 42), you'll not only also see a doubled line there, but also what appears to be an opening/possible walk way through that. If so, what could that possibly mean? :-P


Well I understand you haven't started the idea that its a literal wall, but just more so just the concept doesn't see to work for me. Divider, fence, ect. Just as a theory its the part that extends past the supports.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:22 pm

:banghead:
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:24 pm

Now look what you've done! :lol:


Denying-History wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Denying-History wrote:I'm not all that sure about this idea. It seems like if that were true they would at least provide an indication on the very end that a wall was to be present. It just seems to be an over stretch of the roof which wasn't part of the final construction.

I am not sure why it looks like that on the part theorize a wall... But I don't think a wall was part of the plan.

I'm again having difficulties following your description, but if you go back to my post, you'll read "some kind of "wall/partition"" - some kind of divider, it could even be a fence. As to "an indication on the very end", which end? But if you'll look to the very left end/corner at the outline of the canopy roof support (to the left of "Unreiner" running south-north and aligned with the western wall of B&D 42), you'll not only also see a doubled line there, but also what appears to be an opening/possible walk way through that. If so, what could that possibly mean? :-P


Well I understand you haven't started the idea that its a literal wall, but just more so just the concept doesn't see to work for me. Divider, fence, ect. Just as a theory its the part that extends past the supports.

What part that extends past the supports? The overhang? That runs around the entire roof, including reaching over the B&Ds. I'm talking about a possible feature or features underneath the canopy to the north of the bathhouses and left and right of the southern end of the bunker only seen in the plan view (floor plan).


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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:38 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote::banghead:


:rotfl:


I know what you mean.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:40 pm

I now look at each new post in this thread with a wide-eyed stare, wondering where and how I got lost.

North???
South???

Zyclon B????

Delousing???

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:43 pm

You forgot: testimonies???? David???? CO???? the Düsseldorf judgment???? up???? down???? all around????
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:45 pm

Wait, what are we talking about again??

Where am I?
Where's my soup?

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:49 pm

That said, I'm curious about the detail on which scrmbldggs is elaborating. It's a fresh perspective that I've not considered (or even noticed) . . . but first scrmbldggs has to get D-H to "see" the point.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:54 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I now look at each new post in this thread with a wide-eyed stare, wondering where and how I got lost.

North???
South???

Zyclon B????

Delousing???

Getting lost? With the help of G&M, I can help with that. Take Zyclon B f'rinstance. According to them, apparently even the smaller heat delousing units in B&D 42 had ceiling openings (pipes) for its introduction. Ya know, the live saving "Temperature Delousing Facility" they so love and promote. :lol:

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:06 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:That said, I'm curious about the detail on which scrmbldggs is elaborating. It's a fresh perspective that I've not considered (or even noticed) . . . but first scrmbldggs has to get D-H to "see" the point.

The "Unreiner Teil" south of the bunker is seemingly (at least in parts) separated from the remaining area under the canopy ("Reiner Teil") by stronger outlines, some doubled (and reaching to the B&Ds). That normally denotes features other than open, empty space.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:13 pm

We know that 1942 blueprint was not followed exactly as drawn, but it's possible some sort of partition, connected to the B&D, was planned at that time. Sorta like the later restoration was done...

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Denying-History » Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:20 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Now look what you've done! :lol:


Denying-History wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Denying-History wrote:I'm not all that sure about this idea. It seems like if that were true they would at least provide an indication on the very end that a wall was to be present. It just seems to be an over stretch of the roof which wasn't part of the final construction.

I am not sure why it looks like that on the part theorize a wall... But I don't think a wall was part of the plan.

I'm again having difficulties following your description, but if you go back to my post, you'll read "some kind of "wall/partition"" - some kind of divider, it could even be a fence. As to "an indication on the very end", which end? But if you'll look to the very left end/corner at the outline of the canopy roof support (to the left of "Unreiner" running south-north and aligned with the western wall of B&D 42), you'll not only also see a doubled line there, but also what appears to be an opening/possible walk way through that. If so, what could that possibly mean? :-P


Well I understand you haven't started the idea that its a literal wall, but just more so just the concept doesn't see to work for me. Divider, fence, ect. Just as a theory its the part that extends past the supports.

What part that extends past the supports? The overhang? That runs around the entire roof, including reaching over the B&Ds. I'm talking about a possible feature or features underneath the canopy to the north of the bathhouses and left and right of the southern end of the bunker only seen in the plan view (floor plan).



:lol: Sorry SM. Yeah, your talking about the line that appears to be not a part of the structure. I am not exactly sure about that. It seems it seems like it's part of the structure to me, and on the ends of the fly roof we see that it slants down. Something which appears to have not happened in its final construction.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Denying-History » Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:41 pm

Nvm Scrm, SM explained it. I get what you mean now.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:54 pm

Great! Thanks, SM. :-D

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby BRoI » Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:06 pm

Image
Image

Above is a gif based on the ZBL Lublin August 1942 sketch for the planned delousing bunker that I made with some consultation assistance from scrmbldggs. It doesn't entirely match up with the drawing, but it's the best I can do.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:10 pm

that's better than the sketch I did for D-H but basically the same - there is hope for me in reading blueprints yet! LOL
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:41 pm

BRoI wrote:Image
Image

Above is a gif based on the ZBL Lublin August 1942 sketch for the planned delousing bunker that I made with some consultation assistance from scrmbldggs. It doesn't entirely match up with the drawing, but it's the best I can do.

That is really good, thanks!

On the 1942 K.G.L. Lublin blueprint, the double-lined ("wall-like") features are clearly visible to the right and left and also south in the outline of the smaller (unclean) area BRoI enhanced.

Next up: shifting the bunker with control room to where it is today:


(precise placement TBD...)

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:14 pm

Uh-oh, David, first BROI, now Hunt?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:23 pm

This is quite amazing. David wasted all of our time here only to have Hunt pull the rug out from under it.

David must be seeking solace at the bottom of a bottle while crying fitfully over "Triump of the Will."

:lol:

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:27 pm

ROFL

Something like two years defending Hunt, about a year defending Hunt and BROI - and they both decide that the evidence doesn't support their claims. No wonder David's lying low.

And don't forget that Nessie started this waste of a thread - supporting Hunt's scenario . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:35 pm

Well, Nessie is happily engaged in his "yes I did, no you didn't" with Aryan Scholar or been-there.


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