Hunts Majdanek film.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby BRoI » Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:13 am

scrmbldggs wrote:I thought there was a ceiling vent(s?) in that room? :scratch: (That square opening...)


ETA And if used at night (without bathers), they could as well have opened up the shower room and the side (and other) door(s) to help air it out...

The ceiling vents weren't installed until c.December 1942.


D-H wrote:1) The chamber has two ventilation chimneys.

Not for the first few months that it was used as a delousing chamber it didn't.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:58 am

BRoI wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: I can't find where he gives a date for conversion of IV into a disinfestation chamber. Can you point me to it so I don't become an ass about page refs again?


I kinda goofed when I answered this before by saying it must have been January 1943 as that's when the bill for opening the venting chimneys was dated.


First off thanks for the correction. (Btw, there's apparently a May 1943 dated statement/proposal for moving fumigation chamber IV out of no. 41 and under the canopy roof.)


As to this:
BRoI wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:I thought there was a ceiling vent(s?) in that room? :scratch: (That square opening...)


ETA And if used at night (without bathers), they could as well have opened up the shower room and the side (and other) door(s) to help air it out...

The ceiling vents weren't installed until c.December 1942.


I guess you're referring to this?
BRoI wrote:...Elsewhere in his study Matttongo give a earlier date for when the delousing began it in:

In late September or early October 1942 a hydrogen cyanide gas chamber was set up in Barrack 41, with an air heater joined to the east wall. Work was completed on October 22, and the locale was called “Delousing barrack with bath.” The area which had previously served as an undressing room was used as a gas chamber, without any extensive architectural modifications, which proves that it was a temporary facility. Chamber IV as it appears today has a very irregular shape, with two corners closed in on three sides (and therefore very difficult to ventilate) as well as an interior room equally difficult to air out. [...]

On what are M&G basing their statement, "The area which had previously served as an undressing room" re the chamber in no. 41 that's elsewhere termed dressing room?

Also, it would seem the next part is actually speaking of/describing the bunker (concrete ceiling, one chimney - no. 41 seems to have two small ones)?
(continued:)
Probably this gas chamber was difficult to air out, since the Central Construction Office decided to install a ventilation chimney on the roof, for which purpose it turned to the Polish company Michał Ochnik which we have already encountered. The pertinent cost estimate of November 18, 1942, provided for the construction of two chimneys 0.75 m × 0.75 m × 1.70 m in size, with holes to be cut through the concrete ceiling. However, according to the invoice of January 8, 1943, only one chimney was actually built on the roof of the gas chamber; this chimney was connected “to 2 openings in the concrete ceiling via pipes on two sides.” There is no doubt that this was a ventilation system; this already follows clearly from the fact that the two openings in the gas chamber roof were installed along the extended axis of the air heater intake duct. [148-149]...





BRoI wrote:
D-H wrote: 1) The chamber has two ventilation chimneys.



Not for the first few months that it was used as a delousing chamber it didn't.



Edit(s): Added links.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Denying-History » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:26 am

BRoI wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:I thought there was a ceiling vent(s?) in that room? :scratch: (That square opening...)


ETA And if used at night (without bathers), they could as well have opened up the shower room and the side (and other) door(s) to help air it out...

The ceiling vents weren't installed until c.December 1942.


D-H wrote:1) The chamber has two ventilation chimneys.

Not for the first few months that it was used as a delousing chamber it didn't.


Are you sure? I thought the order for two chimneys dated November 18, 1942 was for the bunker... Or am I mistaken?
Last edited by Denying-History on Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:29 am

David will surely be along to clear up any remaining questions.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:37 am

I'd love to see for him to pick apart and explain to all M&G's tumbled presentation and interpretation of the available documents. :lol:
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:44 am

I'd consider it progress if he figured out how to use the quotation function.

Inexplicably, this thread, on friggin' Majdanek, is now the longest ever in this subforum.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:51 am

Yeah, it's been long-running... which reminds me of what must be a vital piece of equipment of the "Temperature Delousing Facility" discoverer...


Spoiler:
Image
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby BRoI » Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:36 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:(Btw, there's apparently a May 1943 dated statement/proposal for moving fumigation chamber IV out of no. 41 and under the canopy roof.)

Can you point me to where I can find that?


scrmbldggs wrote:On what are M&G basing their statement, "The area which had previously served as an undressing room" re the chamber in no. 41 that's elsewhere termed dressing room?

Mattogno's basing it on the March 1942 plan for B&D2. But please bear in mind he's talking about it's original set-up.

If one compares a sketch of its [Barrack 41] final state with the original plan for Barrack 42 (“Temporary Delousing Facility for Prisoner-of-war Camp Lublin” of March 31, 1942), one comes to the conclusion that the latter, except for the central portion that was used for delousing, was originally designed as the mirror image of the former and was to include the following sections (from north to south): Landing/Entrance, Registration, Hair cutting, Undressing room, Shower, Dressing room, Landing/Exit. This is also confirmed by the fact that the four main sections of the two buildings – Vestibule/Undressing room, Shower/Clothing return, Boiler room, Dressing room – have virtually identical measurements: [p.148]



Also, it would seem the next part is actually speaking of/describing the bunker (concrete ceiling, one chimney - no. 41 seems to have two small ones)?

The documents he cites do invite confusion. Here's what he was referring to:

The November 18, 1942, cost estimate from the Polish company Michał Ochnik, Contractor, headquartered in Sliska Street no. 6/3, Lublin, refers to this facility: [351]

Kostenvoranschlag
für die Zentralbauleitung der Waffen-SS und Polizei in Lublin auf Arbeiten für das Pelz- und Bekleidungswerk.
Zwei Schornsteine in der Gaskammer aufmauern, Ausmaße 0.75 × 0.75. × 1.70 mit Aushauen der Betondecken. Pauschal zl. [= Zloty] 285.00.

Cost Estimate
for the Central Construction Office of the Waffen-SS and Police in Lublin, regarding commissions for the Fur and Clothing Works.
Brick construction of two chimneys in the gas chamber, dimensions 0.75 x 0.75 x 1.70, including cutting through the concrete ceilings. Estimate, zl. [=Złoty] 285.00.


The Central Construction Office accepted the company’s offer, and the work was probably carried out in December. On January 8, 1943, Michał Ochnik submitted the following bill to the Central Construction Office, “for the Clothing Works of the Waffen-SS in Lublin”: [352]

Gegenstand
Für Aufmauern des Schornsteins u. Zuführen der Züge von zwei Seiten zum Schornstein in der Gaskammer im gemauerten Gebäude. Aushauen von 2 Öffnungen in der Betondecke, Aufmauern des Schornsteins, Ausmaße 0.75 × 0.75 × 1.70
Geldbetrag Zloty
285.00
In Worten: Zweihundert fünfundachtzig Zloty

Re.
For brick construction of chimney and connecting the draft pipes from two sides to the chimney in the gas chamber in the brick building. Cutting 2 openings in the concrete ceiling, brick construction of the chimney, dimensions 0.75 x 0.75 x 1.70.
Amount, Złoty 285.00.
In words: two hundred eighty-five Złoty.


351. State Archive of the Vojvodship in Lublin, Central Construction Office of the Waffen-SS and Police Lublin, 8, p. 13. See Document 32.
352. State Archive of the Vojvodship in Lublin, Central Construction Office of the Waffen-SS and Police Lublin, 8, p. 14

p.133 of English version: http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/05-ccm.pdf
p.138 of German version: http://holocausthandbuecher.com/dl/05d-klm.pdf



The job description on Michał Ochnik's 18.11.42 estimate doesn't even match the job description on his 08.01.43 invoice.

But the eastern venting chimney on Chamber 4 is visible in this photo that Kranz dates to the summer of 1942:

Image
Image

So it's likely that Mattogno was mistaken about this estimate and invoice concerning Chamber 4.

Although this bill of works:

For brick construction of chimney and connecting the draft pipes from two sides to the chimney in the gas chamber in the brick building. Cutting 2 openings in the concrete ceiling, brick construction of the chimney, dimensions 0.75 x 0.


Doesn't match this chimney either:

Image
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:44 pm

BRoI wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:(Btw, there's apparently a May 1943 dated statement/proposal for moving fumigation chamber IV out of no. 41 and under the canopy roof.)

Can you point me to where I can find that?

Kranz, pp 43-44 (bottom of page running to top of page)? ("enhancing" not "moving" in Kranz's translation - is this the ref scrmbldggs?)

The rest of your post is interesting and I have to re-read it, and look back at G&M, to absorb it fully. G&M's handling of all this is confusing - shifting nomenclature being just one problem - and it would be good for us all to sort it out together, words I never thought I'd type. :)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Denying-History » Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:56 pm

I am no so sure about the bunnys claim.

Image

Image

Though he is correct about the chimney on the roof.

Image
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:00 pm

I do agree with BRoI's general comments about the design/construction of no. 41 - same basic (almost modular) plan as no. 42 but adapted as has been described in the thread. The remainder I have to spend some time with.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Denying-History » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:08 pm

The dementions of the chimney is 0.75 × 0.75 × 1.70.

According to Pressac the hole in chamber B1 was a 30 cm space.

So it seems rabbit is correct.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:35 pm

BRoI wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:...

Also, it would seem the next part is actually speaking of/describing the bunker (concrete ceiling, one chimney - no. 41 seems to have two small ones)?

The documents he cites do invite confusion. Here's what he was referring to:

The November 18, 1942, cost estimate from the Polish company Michał Ochnik, Contractor, headquartered in Sliska Street no. 6/3, Lublin, refers to this facility: [351]

Kostenvoranschlag
für die Zentralbauleitung der Waffen-SS und Polizei in Lublin auf Arbeiten für das Pelz- und Bekleidungswerk.
Zwei Schornsteine in der Gaskammer aufmauern, Ausmaße 0.75 × 0.75. × 1.70 mit Aushauen der Betondecken. Pauschal zl. [= Zloty] 285.00.

Cost Estimate
for the Central Construction Office of the Waffen-SS and Police in Lublin, regarding commissions for the Fur and Clothing Works.
Brick construction of two chimneys in the gas chamber, dimensions 0.75 x 0.75 x 1.70, including cutting through the concrete ceilings. Estimate, zl. [=Złoty] 285.00.


The Central Construction Office accepted the company’s offer, and the work was probably carried out in December. On January 8, 1943, Michał Ochnik submitted the following bill to the Central Construction Office, “for the Clothing Works of the Waffen-SS in Lublin”: [352]

Gegenstand
Für Aufmauern des Schornsteins u. Zuführen der Züge von zwei Seiten zum Schornstein in der Gaskammer im gemauerten Gebäude. Aushauen von 2 Öffnungen in der Betondecke, Aufmauern des Schornsteins, Ausmaße 0.75 × 0.75 × 1.70
Geldbetrag Zloty
285.00
In Worten: Zweihundert fünfundachtzig Zloty

Re.
For brick construction of chimney and connecting the draft pipes from two sides to the chimney in the gas chamber in the brick building. Cutting 2 openings in the concrete ceiling, brick construction of the chimney, dimensions 0.75 x 0.75 x 1.70.
Amount, Złoty 285.00.
In words: two hundred eighty-five Złoty.


351. State Archive of the Vojvodship in Lublin, Central Construction Office of the Waffen-SS and Police Lublin, 8, p. 13. See Document 32.
352. State Archive of the Vojvodship in Lublin, Central Construction Office of the Waffen-SS and Police Lublin, 8, p. 14

p.133 of English version: http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/05-ccm.pdf
p.138 of German version: http://holocausthandbuecher.com/dl/05d-klm.pdf



The job description on Michał Ochnik's 18.11.42 estimate doesn't even match the job description on his 08.01.43 invoice.

But the eastern venting chimney on Chamber 4 is visible in this photo that Kranz dates to the summer of 1942:

Image
Image

So it's likely that Mattogno was mistaken about this estimate and invoice concerning Chamber 4.

Although this bill of works:

For brick construction of chimney and connecting the draft pipes from two sides to the chimney in the gas chamber in the brick building. Cutting 2 openings in the concrete ceiling, brick construction of the chimney, dimensions 0.75 x 0.


Doesn't match this chimney either:

Image

I think it does, considering that the chimney sits over the "so-called small chamber", which would be on the eastern side.

And there's also a second chimney on the western side of barrack 41. This image is not the best, but it's visible.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:03 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
BRoI wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:(Btw, there's apparently a May 1943 dated statement/proposal for moving fumigation chamber IV out of no. 41 and under the canopy roof.)

Can you point me to where I can find that?

Kranz, pp 43-44 (bottom of page running to top of page)? ("enhancing" not "moving" in Kranz's translation - is this the ref scrmbldggs?)

...

Yeah, sort of. It seemed there was more movement to it. :-P

Thanks!
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Darren Wilshak » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:18 pm

Nice typo DH.

You mean dimensions. ;-)

Though the thread could send David demented.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Denying-History » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:40 pm

Lol yeah. Typing off my phone currently.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby David » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:25 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:SM, you are such a card, the way you beat around the bush when you answer.
I am not asking you hard questions.
So, again, would you agree that Building 41 was originally built with the entrance into the building from the north? Thank you.


As with everything you ask, I'd written about the topic previously but I answered you just the same.

It 's been your turn for 14 months, and running. Answer what you've been asked Mr "Straight Answer." If you can't, no hard feelings, tell us straight out, Straight Answer, and we can move along to other topics.

(Please learn to use the quotation function. It is irritating that you won't.)


Hello SM. You are extraordinarily bad at answering even a simple question.
You seem to have even forgotten that you demanded that I answer your question.
"1. In what way does a plan from March 1942 prove how the bathhouses were used from fall 1942 to fall 1943 – after the bunker and gas chambers were added and the purpose of the facility was updated?"

I am showing you. You have already admitted the first step- The plan from March 1942 was
for a Life Saving building.
You seem to sort of understand that there was a set of procedures going from
the entrance-registration area, through an Undressing room, hair cuts, dirty clothes room, shower, disinfection bath, dressing room and then, Voila!, admission into the camp. (I try to keep you focused
on this to help you understand the answers to your other questions) [You are very confused even in how
you frame your questions]

So, again, to answer your "demand," would you agree that Building 41 was originally built with the entrance into the building from the north? Thank you for making your best effort to answer.


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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby BRoI » Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:16 am

SM wrote:Kranz, pp 43-44 (bottom of page running to top of page)? ("enhancing" not "moving" in Kranz's translation - is this the ref scrmbldggs?)

The rest of your post is interesting and I have to re-read it, and look back at G&M, to absorb it fully. G&M's handling of all this is confusing - shifting nomenclature being just one problem - and it would be good for us all to sort it out together, words I never thought I'd type. :)


lol.

As for the quote from Kranz. What are we supposed to make of this? A note dated 10.05.43 which says:

[disinfection] is situated in the changing room of the east wing and, in order to improve efficiency, is supposed to be enhanced by building a separate chamber under the roof [i.e. in the bunker]


The bunker was completed over eight months earlier! Is he implying it means part of the bunker had to be adapted to become a HCN delousing chamber?

The bunker was built as per Degesch's recommendations passed on via Testa in May-July 1942: the chambers should be 2 metres high and around 75cbm, which is virtually the exact size the original 2 chambers were. Pressac, Schwindt, Mattogno, and Marszalek, all state that 2 heaters were ordered from Theodor Klein Co. in Aug/Sept 42, delivered in mid-Sept when one was connected to Chamber 3. The 22.10.42 report by the Central Construction Office chief of the GG said that "2 delousing barracks with baths, erected partly on wooden post supports and partly on solid foundations" were works in progress, but the "construction of a disinfestation facility" for the Lublin Fur and Clothing Works was "completed" [M&G 132].

Chamber 3 was ready to begin Zyklon B delousing in mid-Sept 42, so how could that note dated 10.05.43 possibly be referring to this chamber, the only one in which HCN delousing could have occurred?

The same 22.10.42 report mentions that "installation of 4 disinfestation chambers" was a task still to be done. Mattogno also cites two estimates from Polish firms submitted in early Nov 1942 "for the Construction of 4 Disinfestation Chambers" [p.133f], although it's unknown if these were ever built. Perhaps these were what Kranz's note referred to.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby BRoI » Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:26 am

scrmbldgg wrote:And there's also a second chimney on the western side of barrack 41.

I know. Here's one of my photos in which you can see both:

Image

I'm not now arguing that Ochnik built the two venting chimneys of Chamber 4. They were clearly there before he wrote his estimate on 18.11.42, which has to be about an entirely different chimney[s].


Although this bill of works:
For brick construction of chimney and connecting the draft pipes from two sides to the chimney in the gas chamber in the brick building. Cutting 2 openings in the concrete ceiling, brick construction of the chimney, dimensions 0.75 x 0.75 x 1.70.
Amount, Złoty 285.00.
In words: two hundred eighty-five Złoty.

Doesn't match this chimney either:

I think it does, considering that the chimney sits over the "so-called small chamber", which would be on the eastern side.


Based on the measurements given on the plan, I've drawn in a 75 x 170cm chimney to scale; it's almost twice the size of the one that was supposedly there.

Image


Image

Ochnik's invoice description of "the gas chamber in the brick building" sounds like it could be referring to the bunker. But the post-liberation sketch appears to show a wooden construction. Bricks are almost always laid horizontally, and no builder in their right mind would build a chimney that heavy in the centre of a flat roof, not even a reinforced concrete one.

A brief segway into the chimney on the drawing:

It would have been approximately 35 x 100 cm, and the hole it covers is 26 x 26 cm [M&G:142].

This chimney was not mentioned by C. Simonv who also failed to noticed the hole in the ceiling [M&G 142f]. The Pol-Sov report states that Chamber 1 had a "hermetically closable ventilation opening (20 x 20 cm) in the ceiling". And Chamber 2 had "a 20 x 20 cm opening in the ceiling. This opening can be hermetically sealed with a lid located above the room" [118f]. Doesn't sound like the commission noticed any the different between a 1 metre tall chimney and the cover that's imperceptible on the drawing.

The chimney should be visible in this photo of people standing in front of Chamber 1 taken sometime between late-'44 and early-'46, but clearly it's not.

Image

It's arguably visible in this photo [still?] from 1944, although that could just be one of the posts supporting the canopy—six of which stood on the roof of the bunker.

Image
http://www.majdanek.com.pl/obozy/majdanek/zdjecia_archiwalne_2.html

Back to the chimney Ochnik built:

His invoice states that he created two holes in a gas chamber ceiling, built a brick chimney, and connected the two holes to the chimney with pipes. That's not a Zyklon B introduction chimney he's describing. Any Zyklon B dropped into his chimney might just sit in the pipes, or end up in the different gas chamber than the victims [assuming you mean the second hole he made was the one above Chamber 2].

Ochnik could have been referring to the delousing chambers in B&D2 of which little is publicly known. Maria Wisnioch states that there are "four cabins for disinfecting clothing with steam"within B&D2, but Mattogno took a photo in the early 1990s that shows an internal brick bunker than must be near 8 feet tall with an air-tight door, judging by the clasp.

Image

Image

Perhaps Ochnik built the chimney that narrows as it rises in the above photo of B&D2; setting it upon the eastern wall of the the delousing chamber in Mattogno's photo. It's wider than 0.75m but its depth is much less. He wouldn't have been the only builder to ever modified the plan during the job but stick to his estimate because no additional materials were required, and when he [or his administrator] wrote up the invoice he just neglected to correct the dimensions.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:23 pm

David wrote:Hello SM. You are extraordinarily bad at answering even a simple question.
You seem to have even forgotten that you demanded that I answer your question.
"1. In what way does a plan from March 1942 prove how the bathhouses were used from fall 1942 to fall 1943 – after the bunker and gas chambers were added and the purpose of the facility was updated?"

I am showing you. You have already admitted the first step- The plan from March 1942 was for a Life Saving building.

I didn't "admit" any such thing.

David wrote:You seem to sort of understand that there was a set of procedures going from the entrance-registration area

This is gibberish. I've detailed, as much as I can from the sources, the usual processes. Yes, they include a registration process but not an "entrance-registration area." That's a new term in this discussion and I haven't any idea what you mean by it.

David wrote:through an Undressing room, hair cuts, dirty clothes room, shower, disinfection bath, dressing room and then, Voila!, admission into the camp.

You should re-read my posts on this topic if you think that this is what I wrote.

David wrote:(I try to keep you focused on this to help you understand the answers to your other questions)

You try putting words into my mouth, you mean.

David wrote:You are very confused even in how you frame your questions]

Tell us how so. Better yet, answer each question and explain the supposed problem with each.

David wrote:So, again, to answer your "demand," would you agree that Building 41 was originally built with the entrance into the building from the north? Thank you for making your best effort to answer.

Asked, answered; asked, answered; and then asked, answered even again.

David, you may have noticed where BRoI and I discussed deleting/updating his video. What did you think of the ideas we kicked around?

Frankly, David, this discussion has gone far ahead without you. I am pretty sure it will continue to do so, and you will fall further and further behind. With you no longer bogging things down, we're making progress.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:55 pm

BRoI wrote:
SM wrote:Kranz, pp 43-44 (bottom of page running to top of page)? ("enhancing" not "moving" in Kranz's translation - is this the ref scrmbldggs?)

The rest of your post is interesting and I have to re-read it, and look back at G&M, to absorb it fully. G&M's handling of all this is confusing - shifting nomenclature being just one problem - and it would be good for us all to sort it out together, words I never thought I'd type. :)


lol.

As for the quote from Kranz. What are we supposed to make of this? A note dated 10.05.43 which says:

[disinfection] is situated in the changing room of the east wing and, in order to improve efficiency, is supposed to be enhanced by building a separate chamber under the roof [i.e. in the bunker]


The bunker was completed over eight months earlier! Is he implying it means part of the bunker had to be adapted to become a HCN delousing chamber?

That is one way I thought the proposal could be read - as a kind of retro-fit to the retro-fit. To use some of its capacity for disinfection. But I am not certain. I'll explain more in this post below.

So we are all on the same page about the construction of the bunker: I think we are. From Kranz and G&M (just having read and answered a post from David I am too wobbly to look up references but will later if need be) I conclude that the bunker was constructed over a period of about three months in late summer - fall 1942. Kranz cites Central Construction Board records to maintain that construction began in August 1942 (see below). Construction was an adaptation of an earlier plan for a disinfection building. G&M (I am sure I quoted this upthread somewhere, recently, and I now see you quoted it below, yes) have a report on construction status (22 October IIRC) at the site implying that the bathhouses were complete by late October and that the bunker was close to completion at that time whereas Kranz gives September 1942 as the completion date for the bunker, which is possibly contradicted by the report quoted by G&M (although this passage is hard to read given G&M's nomenclature problems).

So a construction time line of about 3 months and bunker completion in November, maybe usable in September-October. If we all agree on that, anything else is either details (when were piping or heater installed?) and maybe a bit of semantics.

At any rate, anything being proposed in May 1943 would have been, yes, 7-8 or so months after completion of the bunker.

Does this track with what you understand?

BRoI wrote:bunker was built as per Degesch's recommendations passed on via Testa in May-July 1942: the chambers should be 2 metres high and around 75cbm, which is virtually the exact size the original 2 chambers were. Pressac, Schwindt, Mattogno, and Marszalek, all state that 2 heaters were ordered from Theodor Klein Co. in Aug/Sept 42, delivered in mid-Sept when one was connected to Chamber 3. The 22.10.42 report by the Central Construction Office chief of the GG said that "2 delousing barracks with baths, erected partly on wooden post supports and partly on solid foundations" were works in progress, but the "construction of a disinfestation facility" for the Lublin Fur and Clothing Works was "completed" [M&G 132].

Chamber 3 was ready to begin Zyklon B delousing in mid-Sept 42, so how could that note dated 10.05.43 possibly be referring to this chamber, the only one in which HCN delousing could have occurred?

Ok, the first part of this is pretty much what I was suggesting above - except, to be clear (this is kind of to help David along), that construction didn't AFAIK begin in May 1942: a plan from May 1942 was adapted in August 1942 when construction of the bunker began on the basis of the prior plan (this is what I meant by the first retro-fit mentioned above - an adaptation of an existing plan to a new use).

On the second point, the May 1943 proposed improvement, Kranz doesn't say much at all. I read this as a proposal - and couldn't figure out how it squared with what had been built already (e.g., could it mean minor adaptions in the northernmost chamber, repurposing the southernmost chamber, what?!?!?!). Another way to put this is that, as scrmbldggs should know, I knew what the reference to the "moving" of the fumigation chamber was to, but I never really figured out what to make of it.

BRoI wrote:The same 22.10.42 report mentions that "installation of 4 disinfestation chambers" was a task still to be done. Mattogno also cites two estimates from Polish firms submitted in early Nov 1942 "for the Construction of 4 Disinfestation Chambers" [p.133f], although it's unknown if these were ever built. Perhaps these were what Kranz's note referred to.

Although the May 1943 note seems like a new proposal to address a problem ("in order to improve efficiency")?

This will sound dumb, but there are a number of lines of discussion going on here and I've gotten them tangled: as to the May 1943 proposal, other than having all details understood, what is the impact on our understanding of what's there and how it was used of this proposal?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:19 pm

As we know from David's efforts, he will do his best to obfuscate, so this will be the first of two posts to give David something clear to dodge, confuse, and generally avoid.

After BRoI presented his YouTube video "Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistical Mechanic," on my arguments in this thread, I replied with 5 points. Of my reply, and BRoI's video, David posted,
David wrote:And, speaking of " stupid responses," you didn't address any of the powerful documentary and photographic evidence presented.

Where are we today? I want to focus for one moment on points of agreement that BRoI and I seem to share - yes, folks, you heard that right. BRoI and I seem to agree on some points, whilst still disagreeing on some others. The reason I asked David above about his views on ideas BRoI and I have kicked around was to home in on the following apparent points of agreement (BRoI is of course free to correct any misstatements I inadvertently make about his current views):

1. Flow of prisoners on arrival, on Hunt's claim that they were always routed from north to south through the bathhouses:
BRoI wrote:I wouldn't now argue that prisoners went through Barracks 41+42 in north-to-south direction. This is because of further bits of documentary evidence that show this was unlikely to have been the case following the erection of Barrack 41, the gassing bunker, and the canopy; along with the various pieces of testimony SM found that showed that prisoners had to hand over their luggage and valuables at Barrack 43 [I think it was 43, i can't find SM posts on it right now].

BRoI later adduced the evidence he referred to in this statement and we've been discussing it. David has chosen to ignore that discussion.

2. Were prisoners murdered by gas at Majdanek:
BRoI wrote:The evidence for gassings with CO at Majdanek is strong, but I remain unconvinced that there were ever homicidal gassings with Zyklon B at this particular camp.

We all agree that evidence for CO gassing is strong and, to explore BRoI's conclusion further, have begun discussion of the evidence for Zyklon B gassing, as well as use of gas vans and whether so-called "IV" was ever used to murder prisoners. We all recognize that there are various views on these questions and, as I read the discussion, despite our differing views, we all find it useful to look at the evidence pro and con (I am pretty sure none of us is trying to make a strong case for the use of "IV" to gas people, the strongest opinion on this being that there's evidence we all need to understand better).

3. The shower-deception routine claimed by Marszałek and others:
BRoI wrote:Barracks 41+42 were purely bath delousing houses, I don't believe they played any function in a charade to trick prisoners about to be gassed.

I had not commented directly on this until pushed by BRoI to do so; in fact, I agree with BRoI that accounts of the use of the bathhouses by the museum and in early literature are mistaken when they claim a shower ruse; the bathhouses were used for showering and disinfection - prisoners showered and bathed in the bathhouses were admitted to the camp, not taken to the gas chambers. In fact, many of the prisoners gassed were taken to the Rosengarten first, not to the bathhouses. Also, from time to time, prisoners from the fields were brought to the bathhouses for bathing and showering, not often but occasionally; prisoners were also selected from the fields, especially the Gammelblocks, for gassing - AFAIK no shower deception was used. (On the question of selections of inmates for gassing from the fields, I don't think BRoI has stated a view.)

4. Number of prisoners gassed, which I estimated at not more than 17,000 or so and BRoI in a video on Peltz had attributed to Kranz as 12,000:
BRoI wrote:Yeah, I just borrowed Graf's calculation, but I won't argue with yours for the time being.

Topic for further discussion. I believe we all agree that there's more to be said here.

So, for David, writing in this subforum, as I understand him, the auteur of the video you and I have been debating has maintained the above points. What says David to each point?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby David » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:27 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:Hello SM. You are extraordinarily bad at answering even a simple question.
You seem to have even forgotten that you demanded that I answer your question.
"1. In what way does a plan from March 1942 prove how the bathhouses were used from fall 1942 to fall 1943 – after the bunker and gas chambers were added and the purpose of the facility was updated?"

I am showing you. You have already admitted the first step- The plan from March 1942 was for a Life Saving building.

I didn't "admit" any such thing.
You're Backsliding, SM.


David wrote:You seem to sort of understand that there was a set of procedures going from the entrance-registration area

This is gibberish. I've detailed, as much as I can from the sources, the usual processes. Yes, they include a registration process but not an "entrance-registration area." That's a new term in this discussion and I haven't any idea what you mean by it.
You don't understand what an "entrance" is? You don't understand what
"registration" is? Gee, you must never have been to a Comicon!
Anyway, stop being obdurate.



David wrote:through an Undressing room, hair cuts, dirty clothes room, shower, disinfection bath, dressing room and then, Voila!, admission into the camp.

You should re-read my posts on this topic if you think that this is what I wrote.
No, it is what you try to avoid. But you should read the 1942 plan again.
It is what the rooms are described as on the Plan


David wrote:(I try to keep you focused on this to help you understand the answers to your other questions)

You try putting words into my mouth, you mean.
Oh no, I don't think anyone could fit even one more little word in your mouth,
SM. I am just suggesting that you look at the actual German Plan from 1942 for the
disinfection/bath building and read what they intended to build. I had hoped you could
agree that the building was placed with the entrance to the north.


David wrote:You are very confused even in how you frame your questions]

Tell us how so. Better yet, answer each question and explain the supposed problem with each.

David wrote:So, again, to answer your "demand," would you agree that Building 41 was originally built with the entrance into the building from the north? Thank you for making your best effort to answer.

Asked, answered; asked, answered; and then asked, answered even again.
You couldn't just say "Yes?"

David, you may have noticed where BRoI and I discussed deleting/updating his video. What did you think of the ideas we kicked around?

Frankly, David, this discussion has gone far ahead without you. I am pretty sure it will continue to do so, and you will fall further and further behind. With you no longer bogging things down, we're making progress.

That is nice but you asked me a question,
"1. In what way does a plan from March 1942 prove how the bathhouses were used from fall 1942 to fall 1943 – after the bunker and gas chambers were added and the purpose of the facility was updated?"
Now you are avoiding the topic and even pretending that the bathhouses were not for "saving lives."

The 22.10.42 report by the Central Construction Office chief of the GG said that "2 delousing barracks with baths, erected partly on wooden post supports and partly on solid foundations" were works in progress, but the "construction of a disinfestation facility" for the Lublin Fur and Clothing Works was "completed"

That supports the idea that the construction of the life saving bath-delousing buildings was not
not complete until some time in November 1942...just as I said.

How does the Oct, 22, 1942 report by the Central Construction Office help answer your question?


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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:30 pm

David wrote:So, again, to answer your "demand," would you agree that Building 41 was originally built with the entrance into the building from the north? Thank you for making your best effort to answer.

Earlier, when David asked this question, which I've answered a number of times (I told David that I didn't know) and which David keeps pretending I've not answered, I made the reply to Jeffk and David below. I can simplify that post: can David tell us what evidence he has for the planning and construction of barrack no. 41?

Here's the more detailed post I made previously, which includes 8 questions which David refuses to answer:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
David wrote:Ahah...so you finally admit the obvious, that the March 31, 1942 plans had no (zero, nada) intent of a homicidal purpose.
Boy that was like pulling teeth...hopefully telling the Truth will get easier for you next time.
So, the starting point for Building 41 is that it was designed as a life saving/disease control facility.

Next Baby Step
Now let's see if we can move along the timeline from drawing of the the non-homicidal plan to the history of construction based on
the plan in the summer of 1942.
So, SM, would you agree that Building 41 was originally built with the entrance into the building from the north?


And . . . ???? . . . David says that now I "finally admit" that the original purpose for the building planned in March 1942 wasn't to kill people (duh - because it was planned before there was a plan to kill people in gas chambers at Majdanek!) . . . which is what I first said two years ago! And which is what I quoted in the post he replied to?!?!?! LOL Does David just make up whatever pleases him? Does he think people here can't read?

As you say, the plan for the barrack apparently predated the SS plan for a gas chamber at Majdanek. So there's nothing to "admit." But, sheesh, I told Nessie, David and everyone else this in December 2014.

David now asks me about building 41. I've already told him: I've never seen a plan for building 41, has he?

Actually, there are a few questions along these lines David needs to answer for us. I'd like him to tell us, since he's such an expert about the buildings and since he's told us that Mattogno's account is "brilliant." So he can explain what Mattogno's "brilliant" account says about the following:

- what were the precise time and reason the SS decided to locate a barrack similar to the one shown in the provisional plan where no. 42 is today?

- what were the precise time and reason the SS decided to add a 2nd horse-stable type barrack to the site?

- when did construction of barrack no. 42 commence?

- when did construction of barrack no. 41 commence?

- when did the SS begin using barrack no. 42 and for what purposes? ditto barrack no. 41?

- which planning and construction documents tell us that, as David's said, barracks nos. 41 and 42 have identical interiors?

- what was the completion % of each barrack on 1 September 1942?

- on what date was each barrack completed?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby David » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:41 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
1. Flow of prisoners on arrival, on Hunt's claim that they were always routed from north to south through the bathhouses:
BRoI wrote:I wouldn't now argue that prisoners went through Barracks 41+42 in north-to-south direction. This is because of further bits of documentary evidence that show this was unlikely to have been the case following the erection of Barrack 41, the gassing bunker, and the canopy; along with the various pieces of testimony SM found that showed that prisoners had to hand over their luggage and valuables at Barrack 43 [I think it was 43, i can't find SM posts on it right now].

What says David to each point?


You misunderstand what Mr. Hunt is saying. He is looking at the March 1942
and he is showing that the Bath houses were built based on the Plan. It makes sense that
prisoners entered from the north. I don't think he is claiming that it was impossible to walk in through the
southern exit door.

You are claiming (based on BRoL) something different..."unlikely to have been the case following the erection of Barrack 41, the gassing bunker, and the canopy."

BRofL has a logical view...the intent of the Germans was clear through the construction of the Bldg.s 41 and
42 but intent could have changed after construction. Simple.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:51 pm

David wrote:You're Backsliding, SM.

Not at all. I have been consistent that your re-branding of these barracks as "life saving" is just dumb.

David wrote:You don't understand what an "entrance" is? You don't understand what
"registration" is? Gee, you must never have been to a Comicon! Anyway, stop being obdurate.

Not at all. Your refusal to be specific is an ongoing problem.

The entrance to the economics sector was the gate to the east of barrack 41. The registration place was the Effektenkammer, barracks 43-44, which lay south of the bathhouses. Prisoners entered the entrance through the gate and past the guardhouse east of barrack 41 and were registered in the Effektenkammer, not in a single area. You wrote about an entrance-registration area to obfuscate your earlier claim that prisoners entered the north end of the bathhouses and were registered there and to obfuscate my correction of that nonsense.

Try again.

David wrote:It is what the rooms are described as on the Plan

Since we're disputing that the plan shows how the barracks, especially 41, were constructed and used, this answer is beyond feeble.

David wrote:[Oh no, I don't think anyone could fit even one more little word in your mouth, SM. I am just suggesting that you look at the actual German Plan from 1942 for the disinfection/bath building and read what they intended to build. I had hoped you could agree that the building was placed with the entrance to the north.

But, leaving aside all the other replies I've made to this with points you ignore, you asked me about barrack 41, not barrack 42, yet you now tell me to look at the plan, from March 1942, for barrack 42. Please try to keep straight what you're talking about.

David wrote:You couldn't just say "Yes?"

Not when the answer isn't "yes."

David wrote:[That is nice but you asked me a question,
"1. In what way does a plan from March 1942 prove how the bathhouses were used from fall 1942 to fall 1943 – after the bunker and gas chambers were added and the purpose of the facility was updated?"
Now you are avoiding the topic and even pretending that the bathhouses were not for "saving lives."

I'm not avoiding any topic - I am still waiting for you to tell us in what way a plan from March 1942 proves how the bathhouses were used from fall 1942 to fall 1943 – after the bunker and gas chambers were added and the purpose of the facility was updated. You've not done so. You've asked me questions instead.

David wrote:"The 22.10.42 report by the Central Construction Office chief of the GG said that "2 delousing barracks with baths, erected partly on wooden post supports and partly on solid foundations" were works in progress, but the "construction of a disinfestation facility" for the Lublin Fur and Clothing Works was "completed"
That supports the idea that the construction of the life saving bath-delousing buildings was not
not complete until some time in November 1942...just as I said.

Since 2014 I've been posting that the bunker was ready for use in fall 1942 and basing this on the documents quoted in G&M, including this one, and Kranz's summary. You're not telling us anything we don't know. See the reply I made to BRoI above, an BRoI’s post which I replied to, for a more complete explanation of this.

David wrote:How does the Oct, 22, 1942 report by the Central Construction Office help answer your question?

The 22 October report reviews some of the construction time line for the barracks - not much and not conclusive information but some information on this. It is you who insist you know the time line and construction details for barrack 41, so it is your responsibility to show us the evidence you are relying on. You've refused to do so for months.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby David » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:59 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:So, again, to answer your "demand," would you agree that Building 41 was originally built with the entrance into the building from the north? Thank you for making your best effort to answer.

Earlier, when David asked this question, which I've answered a number of times (I told David that I didn't know)


You seem to "don't know" any facts you don't like, SM.
As Hunt shows, Bldg. 41 was built according to the March 31 1942 German Plan
and the entrance registration rooms were at the north end.

Meaning that the general intent of the Germans was to have every prisoner
coming into Majdanek walk through the entrance, register, take a shower and be
disinfected.
It is obvious.

What might have happened after the construction of the bath buildings is something
different. You could claim that people arrived on pogo sticks and I couldn't
disprove you.


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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:59 pm

David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
1. Flow of prisoners on arrival, on Hunt's claim that they were always routed from north to south through the bathhouses:
BRoI wrote:I wouldn't now argue that prisoners went through Barracks 41+42 in north-to-south direction. This is because of further bits of documentary evidence that show this was unlikely to have been the case following the erection of Barrack 41, the gassing bunker, and the canopy; along with the various pieces of testimony SM found that showed that prisoners had to hand over their luggage and valuables at Barrack 43 [I think it was 43, i can't find SM posts on it right now].

What says David to each point?


You misunderstand what Mr. Hunt is saying. He is looking at the March 1942 and he is showing that the Bath houses were built based on the Plan.

No, he is saying that prisoners entered the bathhouses from the north, and that the March 1942 is one proof for that.

Look at his aerial view, posted above is in this thread, where he claims that the "Truth" is northern entry. You don't even understand the proposition you're defending.

David wrote:It makes sense that prisoners entered from the north. I don't think he is claiming that it was impossible to walk in through the southern exit door.

Yet he calls southern entry "Lies." You are backpedaling so furiously you just fell over.

David wrote:You are claiming (based on BRoL) something different..."unlikely to have been the case following the erection of Barrack 41, the gassing bunker, and the canopy."

Please translate to English.

David wrote:BRofL has a logical view...the intent of the Germans was clear through the construction of the Bldg.s 41 and
42 but intent could have changed after construction. Simple.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

David, you sorry fool, that is what I began arguing in fall 2014! You're as dumb as a sack of hammers, friend, and you're so fried on this topic that you're confusing yourself, contradicting your own argument, and now helping make the case against Hunt!
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Why take and shower and be de-loused?

Postby David » Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:01 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:You're Backsliding, SM.

Not at all. I have been consistent that your re-branding of these barracks as "life saving" is just dumb.


I don't think it is dumb. You just don't like admitting the truth.
Or do you have another reason Why take and shower and be de-loused?


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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:14 pm

David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:So, again, to answer your "demand," would you agree that Building 41 was originally built with the entrance into the building from the north? Thank you for making your best effort to answer.

Earlier, when David asked this question, which I've answered a number of times (I told David that I didn't know)


You seem to "don't know" any facts you don't like, SM.

Sigh, once again now, what fact is it that I supposedly don't like here?

David wrote:As Hunt shows, Bldg. 41 was built according to the March 31 1942 German Plan and the entrance registration rooms were at the north end.

Sign, once again now, where is that shown? Read this post, please, and then tell us. Same basic "modular" plan, because as BRoI wrote earlier, these are standard horse-stable type barracks, and the interiors can be adapted/modified/used according to needs. With the provisional March plan for 42, Hunt doesn't show how no. 41 was constructed vs standard, modified, or used. Sorry, he just doesn't. It's up to you to (finally) show us what you are talking about.

David wrote:Meaning that the general intent of the Germans was to have every prisoner coming into Majdanek walk through the entrance, register, take a shower and be disinfected. It is obvious.

First, that's not what you wrote. Second, it is not obvious. Why were many prisoners taken to the Rosengarten, a point you've so far not conceded btw? Why were some prisoners not registered at all? Why was there an undressing room south of the showers? Why was registration in a barrack south of the bathhouses?

David wrote:What might have happened after the construction of the bath buildings is something different. You could claim that people arrived on pogo sticks and I couldn't disprove you.

Except you could show I have no evidence for pogo-stick arrival whereas BRoI, scrmbldggs, and I can show 1) evidence for how and when the barracks were built and 2) evidence for how the barracks were used. And we can also show that you've failed to show evidence for what you claim.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Why take and shower and be de-loused?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:15 pm

David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:You're Backsliding, SM.

Not at all. I have been consistent that your re-branding of these barracks as "life saving" is just dumb.


I don't think it is dumb. You just don't like admitting the truth.
Or do you have another reason Why take and shower and be de-loused?


Life saving is Fritz Bergian crap. Prisoners were rarely taken for bathing after being admitted to the camp, and epidemic disease was rampant at Majdanek, affecting many Camp SS. The bathhouses were a minimal measure taken mainly with prisoners coming into the camp to abate the deplorable conditions a bit. Berg's term, which you've cadged, is meant to prettify the nature of a KL and in this case also meant to deceive about the uses of the complex which included the gas chambers in the bunkers. Full stop.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:30 pm

David, you skipped over this:
BRoI wrote:The evidence for gassings with CO at Majdanek is strong/

How come?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:45 pm

BRoI wrote:
scrmbldgg wrote:And there's also a second chimney on the western side of barrack 41.

I know. Here's one of my photos in which you can see both:

Image

I'm not now arguing that Ochnik built the two venting chimneys of Chamber 4. They were clearly there before he wrote his estimate on 18.11.42, which has to be about an entirely different chimney[s].


Although this bill of works:
For brick construction of chimney and connecting the draft pipes from two sides to the chimney in the gas chamber in the brick building. Cutting 2 openings in the concrete ceiling, brick construction of the chimney, dimensions 0.75 x 0.75 x 1.70.
Amount, Złoty 285.00.
In words: two hundred eighty-five Złoty.

Doesn't match this chimney either:

I think it does, considering that the chimney sits over the "so-called small chamber", which would be on the eastern side.


Based on the measurements given on the plan, I've drawn in a 75 x 170cm chimney to scale; it's almost twice the size of the one that was supposedly there.

Image


Image

Ochnik's invoice description of "the gas chamber in the brick building" sounds like it could be referring to the bunker. But the post-liberation sketch appears to show a wooden construction. Bricks are almost always laid horizontally, and no builder in their right mind would build a chimney that heavy in the centre of a flat roof, not even a reinforced concrete one.

A brief segway into the chimney on the drawing:

It would have been approximately 35 x 100 cm, and the hole it covers is 26 x 26 cm [M&G:142].

This chimney was not mentioned by C. Simonv who also failed to noticed the hole in the ceiling [M&G 142f]. The Pol-Sov report states that Chamber 1 had a "hermetically closable ventilation opening (20 x 20 cm) in the ceiling". And Chamber 2 had "a 20 x 20 cm opening in the ceiling. This opening can be hermetically sealed with a lid located above the room" [118f]. Doesn't sound like the commission noticed any the different between a 1 metre tall chimney and the cover that's imperceptible on the drawing.

The chimney should be visible in this photo of people standing in front of Chamber 1 taken sometime between late-'44 and early-'46, but clearly it's not.

Image

It's arguably visible in this photo [still?] from 1944, although that could just be one of the posts supporting the canopy—six of which stood on the roof of the bunker.

Image
http://www.majdanek.com.pl/obozy/majdanek/zdjecia_archiwalne_2.html

Back to the chimney Ochnik built:

His invoice states that he created two holes in a gas chamber ceiling, built a brick chimney, and connected the two holes to the chimney with pipes. That's not a Zyklon B introduction chimney he's describing. Any Zyklon B dropped into his chimney might just sit in the pipes, or end up in the different gas chamber than the victims [assuming you mean the second hole he made was the one above Chamber 2].

Ochnik could have been referring to the delousing chambers in B&D2 of which little is publicly known. Maria Wisnioch states that there are "four cabins for disinfecting clothing with steam"within B&D2, but Mattogno took a photo in the early 1990s that shows an internal brick bunker than must be near 8 feet tall with an air-tight door, judging by the clasp.

Image

Image

Perhaps Ochnik built the chimney that narrows as it rises in the above photo of B&D2; setting it upon the eastern wall of the the delousing chamber in Mattogno's photo. It's wider than 0.75m but its depth is much less. He wouldn't have been the only builder to ever modified the plan during the job but stick to his estimate because no additional materials were required, and when he [or his administrator] wrote up the invoice he just neglected to correct the dimensions.


Thanks. I don't have much time right now but, after scanning through your post, wanna add a thought about this:
The same 22.10.42 report mentions that "installation of 4 disinfestation chambers" was a task still to be done. Mattogno also cites two estimates from Polish firms submitted in early Nov 1942 "for the Construction of 4 Disinfestation Chambers" [p.133f], although it's unknown if these were ever built. Perhaps these were what Kranz's note referred to.

That might refer to the heat chambers inside barrack no. 42, of which you posted the image:
Image
This one seems to be sitting on the northern wall of the disinfestation area. (Which itself sits/runs north of the "Kesselhaus"/boiler room.)
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Re: Why take and shower and be de-loused?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:24 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:You're Backsliding, SM.

Not at all. I have been consistent that your re-branding of these barracks as "life saving" is just dumb.


I don't think it is dumb. You just don't like admitting the truth.
Or do you have another reason Why take and shower and be de-loused?


Life saving is Fritz Bergian crap. Prisoners were rarely taken for bathing after being admitted to the camp, and epidemic disease was rampant at Majdanek, affecting many Camp SS. The bathhouses were a minimal measure taken mainly with prisoners coming into the camp to abate the deplorable conditions a bit. Berg's term, which you've cadged, is meant to prettify the nature of a KL and in this case also meant to deceive about the uses of the complex which included the gas chambers in the bunkers. Full stop.

"Live saving" surely refers to the treatment by the "Lublin Fur and Clothing Works" to the shipped off loot. :-P
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:24 pm

LOL yeah, that too!
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:48 pm

One point to consider relative to the May 1943 proposal quoted by Kranz is that it came at the time of the height of the Warsaw transports to Majdanek, and thus more frequent/extensive use of the complex for processing arriving prisoners, including selections and gassing of the Jews brought to Majdanek from Warsaw. Might this situation have somehow put pressure on the use of IV, assuming it was used for disinfecting clothing, and raised the need for another (temporary?) solution for disinfection of clothes?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:01 pm

What it also seems to tell us is that cyanide wasn't used in the bunker until then. Curious...


ETA When was the heater installed on the bunker?

More to add to that^, BRoI wrote
Pressac, Schwindt, Mattogno, and Marszalek, all state that 2 heaters were ordered from Theodor Klein Co. in Aug/Sept 42, delivered in mid-Sept when one was connected to Chamber 3.


I thought the first heater went to the eastern side of barrack no. 41? But also have to admit having lost my track here a bit... lol.
Last edited by scrmbldggs on Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:14 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:. . . have to admit having lost my track here a bit... lol.

"Gas Chamber Guys" to the rescue! LOL
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:47 pm

placeholder on testimonies re: timing of Zyklon gassings at Majdanek, most "Zyklon testimonies" referring to mid- to fall 1943:

- Kapo Ernst Fischer - testimony seems to support fall 1942 for Zyklon gassings
- Prisoner orderly Ludwig Benden’s Zyklon testimony puts use of Zyklon B to early 1943
- Wilhelm Gerstenmeier hearsay - seems to put Zyklon gassings to fall 1943
- SS-man Terner - Zyklon B in October 1943
- Delegatura report on Zyklon refers to mid-1943
- SS-man Thernes testified to Zyklon gassing in fall 1943

Also on Zyklon B, generally, this from Höss: “Lublin ……….. Cyclone B” (Death Dealer, p 42 - Zyklon B, Höss identified in this same list engine exhaust as the killing agent at Chełmno, Treblinka, Sobibór, and Bełżec)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:23 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:What it also seems to tell us is that cyanide wasn't used in the bunker until then. Curious...


ETA When was the heater installed on the bunker?

More to add to that^, BRoI wrote
Pressac, Schwindt, Mattogno, and Marszalek, all state that 2 heaters were ordered from Theodor Klein Co. in Aug/Sept 42, delivered in mid-Sept when one was connected to Chamber 3.


I thought the first heater went to the eastern side of barrack no. 41? But also have to admit having lost my track here a bit... lol.


Again, from the post by BRoI on p 28, the general confusion G&M stated:
In late September or early October 1942 a hydrogen cyanide gas chamber was set up in Barrack 41, with an air heater joined to the east wall. Work was completed on October 22, and the locale was called “Delousing barrack with bath.”


That would mean that's the one connected to chamber IV. Anyone knows when one was installed at the bunker? Not sure, but I think it was D-H who said that happened later?
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