Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

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Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:19 pm

Results of excavations at Einsatz Reinhard Sobibór camp:
Archaeologists Uncover Buried Gas Chambers At Sobibor Death Camp

By Kacper Pempel

SOBIBOR, Poland, Sept 18 (Reuters) - Archaeologists working at the site of the Nazi concentration camp at Sobibor, in eastern Poland, say they have uncovered previously-hidden gas chambers in which an estimated quarter of a million Jews were killed.

German forces tried to erase all traces of the camp when they closed it down following an uprising there on Oct. 14, 1943. The Nazis demolished the gas chambers and an asphalt road was later built over the top.

Archaeologists excavated beneath the road and found lines of bricks, laid four deep, where they believe the walls of the gas chambers used to stand.

They have been able to establish how big the chambers were, information they said would help build up a more precise picture of how many people were murdered at the camp.

"Finally, we have reached our goal -- the discovery of the gas chambers. We were amazed at the size of the building and the well-preserved condition of the chamber walls," said Yoram Haimi, one of the archaeologists.

Haimi said two of his own uncles, who had been living in Paris during the war and were rounded up by the Germans, were among those who were killed at Sobibor.

The archaeologists said among the personal items they had come across buried in the ground near the gas chambers was a wedding ring which carried the inscription, in Hebrew: "Behold, you are consecrated unto me."


EVIDENCE DESTROYED

Historians say that because the Germans razed the camp, and because so few of those detained there came out alive to give testimony, there is less information about how Sobibor operated and the scale of the killing than there is for some other concentration camps.

Polish archaeologist Wojciech Mazurek, who has also been involved in uncovering the site, said the excavations revealed there were eight gas chambers.

"The extermination of people took place there; murder by smoke from an engine that killed everyone within 15 minutes in these gas chambers, in torment, shouting," he told Reuters Television.

"It is said that ... the Nazis even bred geese in order to drown out these shouts so that prisoners could not have heard these shouts, these torments."

According to Israel's Yad Vashem International Institute for Holocaust Research, the 1943 uprising was organized by Jewish civilians at the camp and Jewish officers in the Soviet army who had been taken prisoner and sent to Sobibor.

About 300 people escaped, but most were caught and killed. Those who did not take part in the break out were also killed. At the end of World War Two, about 50 escapees were left alive.

The research project at Sobibor is being carried out in coordination with the Israeli-based Yad Vashem International Institute for Holocaust Research, the German-Polish Foundation, and the Majdanek State Museum, near the Polish city of Lublin. (Additional reporting by Robert Furmanczuk and Michal Ratynski; Writing by Christian Lowe; Editing by Crispian Balmer)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/1 ... 43846.html

This news story includes additional photographs: http://www.nbcnews.com/science/science- ... or-n206591

I haven't had time yet to look in detail at these new findings from Yoram Haimi's archaeological work at the Sobibór camp. I recall that estimates of the number of new gas chambers at the camp vary from 6-8 - with the excavations apparently discovering 8. Interested in comments from readers . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:47 pm

"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:21 am

"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby TazKa » Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:41 pm

i have been reading the links you have shared but having hard time to understand how a wedding ring and some remains of a building meant those findings are part of a gas chambers. I guess anything is found around these camps is accepted as a gas chambers ????? I have been to Auschwitz before and those bricks are the same one they used for the barracks.
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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:01 pm

Gas chambers discovered at Nazi death camp Sobibor (1min 44sec )

phpBB [video]

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby TazKa » Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:53 am

'The Germans demolished the camp and carefully removed all evidence of it, removing corpses from the graves and burning them before planting a forest at the site. "We know far more about Auschwitz, because some people survived there," said former Polish foreign minister Władysław Bartoszewski at the conference. "Sobibor was a place of instantaneous extermination. People were gassed there in thirty minutes, with the use of exhaust fumes from diesel engines. No documents on the subject are extant."'
This is from Auschwitz-Birkenau musuem official website http://en.auschwitz.org/m/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=231&Itemid=8.

It says around 250.000 ppl killed even though no documentation found and that is 465 killing daily ratio to reach that amount in 18 months
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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Nessie » Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:32 am

TazKa wrote:.......

It says around 250.000 ppl killed even though no documentation found and that is 465 killing daily ratio to reach that amount in 18 months


Here is documentary evidence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6fle_Telegram

Sobibor opened on 16/May/42. From then until 31/Dec/42 there were 101,370 arrivals. In the two weeks up to then there were 515 arrivals.


Then the Dutch kept records on who was sent to Sibibor from the Netherlands

http://www.sobiborinterviews.nl/en/nede ... erlevenden

Tuesday 2 March 1943 1105 deportees no survivors
Wednesday 10 March 1943 1105 deportees 13 survivors
Wednesday 17 March 1943 964 deportees 1 survivor
Tuesday 23 March 1943 1250 deportees no survivors
Tuesday 30 March 1943 1255 deportees no survivors
Tuesday 6 April 1943 2020 deportees 2 survivors
Tuesday 13 April 1943 1204 deportees no survivors
Tuesday 20 April 1943 1166 deportees no survivors
Tuesday 27 April 1943 1204 deportees no survivors
Tuesday 4 May 1943 1187 deportees no survivors
Tuesday 11 May 1943 1446 deportees 1 survivor
Tuesday 18 May 1943 2511 deportees no survivors
Tuesday 25 May 1943 2862 deportees no survivors
Tuesday 1 June 1943 3006 deportees 1 survivor
Tuesday 8 June 1943 3017 deportees no survivors
Tuesday 29 June 1943 2397 deportees no survivors
Tuesday 6 July 1943 2417 deportees no survivors
Tuesday 13 July 1943 1988 deportees no survivors
Tuesday 20 July 1943 2209 deportees no survivors


More documentary evidence here

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... rherr.html

"Evacuation from other European Countries
Within the realm of German influence and power beyond the boundaries of the Reich the following evacuations have taken place:

Holland (Up to 12/12/42) 38,571 (In the first quarter of 1943) 13,832"


More evidence is provided by Dutch name tags found at Sobibor

Image

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:36 am

TazKa wrote:i have been reading the links you have shared but having hard time to understand how a wedding ring and some remains of a building meant those findings are part of a gas chambers. I guess anything is found around these camps is accepted as a gas chambers ????? I have been to Auschwitz before and those bricks are the same one they used for the barracks.

You're being either disingenuous or ignorant. The Washington Post article explains of the wedding ring and other artifacts found that they are potential evidence for those murdered, not evidence of gas chambers:
Thousands of items that belonged to those murdered were also left buried in a well the Germans had plugged. “We found earrings, gold wedding rings and a ring with the inscription, ‘with this ring you are consecrated to me,’ in Hebrew letters,” Israeli archaeologist Yoram Haimi told Haaretz. “We also found a large Magen David [the Star of David] and a coin dated 1927 from Palestine.”

The Times of Israel mentions that such artifacts corroborate survivor testimonies about the camp.

The former Polish Foreign Minister is mistaken: In the video linked to, Yoram Haimi (one of the project leads) explains (1:05- 1:20) that we have records for Dutch transports and names of those taken to the camp. (One of the Dutch deportees, Jules Schelvis, survived and wrote a book on Sobibor. Blue Space Oddity has provided a lot of information about the Dutch transports here: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=23174)

If you start out with a modicum of honesty, you will be taken seriously. From what you posted, not so much.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby TazKa » Tue Sep 23, 2014 7:54 pm

Well thank you very much for extra information but I would like to point out your headline. It read gas chambers are discovered in sobibor and you went ahead and copied some links in which none of them had any sort of proof. How are they so sure those ruins are destroyed gas chambers?

You don't need to get angry or aggressive, I have been reading this forum almost 6 months. Obviously u know things way more than I do but I have got questions in my head and trying to find out the answers.
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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:25 pm

TazKa wrote:Well thank you very much for extra information but I would like to point out your headline. It read gas chambers are discovered in sobibor

No, it didn't. It read "Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp." Not to be angry or aggressive, but it helps to be accurate when you make a charge or explanation.

TazKa wrote:and you went ahead and copied some links in which none of them had any sort of proof. How are they so sure those ruins are destroyed gas chambers?

I didn't say there were details about what was found; in fact, I wrote that there weren't yet details and that I was
Looking forward to more detail, of course.

The archaeologists, who are a bit closer to the findings than you or I, concluded that they'd found the ruins of gas chambers. Are you aware of evidence to call their findings into question? At any rate, the announcement of this finding - with the hope for more detail and for substantiation - is interesting news about the "Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp."

TazKa wrote:You don't need to get angry or aggressive, I have been reading this forum almost 6 months. Obviously u know things way more than I do but I have got questions in my head and trying to find out the answers.

Sorry, I didn't feel angry or aggressive, so if I came off that way, it was my mistake. At the same time, comments like
I guess anything is found around these camps is accepted as a gas chambers ????? I have been to Auschwitz before and those bricks are the same one they used for the barracks.
strike me as unhelpful, as does the fact that you'd post a video and ignore what is in it. You came across as not very interested in the admittedly skimpy detail we have and putting it into context.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 27, 2014 10:36 pm

English translation of Spiegel article on recent results of Sobibór archaeological work

Some interesting points in this article:
1) the evident time it takes to excavate a site properly, the need for patience and a careful methodology - e.g., sifting by hand over many years demonstrated in one video clip (as an aside, IIRC excavations at the Anasazi sites in Chaco Valley, NM, were suspended indefinitely during the '80s (?) so as not to disturb the "ruins" further before more advanced techniques in the future were developed) - at Sobibór, the archaeologists need more work to be certain their recent find is the gas chambers
2) the expectation that over time "remains of the rest of the gas chambers" will be uncovered
3) the pavement, in the view of Haimi, preserved important aspects of the site
4) the archaeologists believe they've located where the engine for gassing was placed
5) finds in line with narratives about Sobibór - fencing, the Himmelfahrtsstrasse, SK barracks, skeletons, bone fragments
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby TazKa » Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:47 am

Good Morning Statical Mechanic,
All in all, after 7 years work, they still are not sure the remains belong to the gas chambers. How can they be ? Now they are suggesting they need more time as it has reached to a level that it need to be dealt with delicacy. I guess they spent all the money from their sponsors and they needed to show something to them that at least they are not wasting their money.

Now this is just my opinion please don't think i am being ignorant again. All the links you have copied here are turning in the same cycles and not one single proof presented nor any tiny suggestion that why those remains might belong to a gas chamber.

Now in the article they say
Sobibór, the archaeologists need more work to be certain their recent find is the gas chambers
but they are still sure
the expectation that over time "remains of the rest of the gas chambers" will be uncovered
also i hope
fencing, the Himmelfahrtsstrasse
is not the one they showed in one of the videos that goes between merely 2 trees

Now why do they do this? I mean if they are not sure this is a gas chambers and they have been digging for 7 years and waited this long, Why not wait till, it is %100 proved.
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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Nessie » Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:04 am

Archaeology is slow, back breaking work where time is needed so as not to miss or damage anything. I think TV has caused people to believe examination of physical evidence is done very quickly, from the two day flash digs of the Time Team programme Channel 4 in the UK, to the CSI, CSI NY and CSI Miami dramas where they solve a murder a shift.

Those who are in the field are being paid by Universities who lose the teaching when they are away. They need to post regular updates about progress and sometimes, especially if something news worthy is found the press report it. Those involved may get a few weeks in the holidays to do a dig and when the academic year starts, they have to close the dig down and return to teaching.
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Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby TazKa » Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:04 am

Do you remember i have talked about the questions i have in my head. Well it is all started to raise when i watched Caroline Sturdy-Colls' program called 'Treblinka - Hitler's Killing Machine'. In that program she has cried longer than she talked about the evidence why the bones she found belongs to the victims and why did she buried them back without investigating. After all she was a scientist. Anyway i am sure we have all watched the program as there was a thread about her in the forum.

Then i was in Auschwitz touring with a guide and listening all the atrocities Nazi's committed which in one of them Dr Mengele ordered to send a whole barracks of women to the gas chambers just because one of them had lice in her hair. As i was listening our guide i saw this [img]
Ausc%201.jpg
[/img]
this guy was from Holland and deported to Auschwitz in 1944 and next to his ID i have read this [img]
ausc%202.jpg
[/img]. This was Sep 3rd only 4-5 months before end of the war. This guy was severely injured and out of use. Yet he was admitted to camp hospital NOT executed. That made me start thinking what if the Nazis are as bad as they say. Of course the slave labour, road marches and shootings i do accept that but i think THERE IS an extra and exaggerated effort to make them something they are not.
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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:21 am

TazKa wrote:Good Morning Statical Mechanic,
All in all, after 7 years work, they still are not sure the remains belong to the gas chambers. How can they be ?

What are your qualifications in archaeological work, I wonder? Did you not read the article?
Most of the work here is being done by hand. Haimi and Mazurek say the danger was too great that machines would destroy the fragile remnants of the walls or that important objects might be lost. The two archeologists have been researching Sobibór for years.

The archaeologists think, based on a variety of evidence, that the brick foundations discovered must be the gas chambers, but, in keeping with objectivity norms and the processes of their discipline, they plan more work to be certain about the physical evidence. I am not an archaeologist but have read a fair amount about the discipline in other contexts - the way the work is being carried out at Sobibór compares well with what I've read. What raises questions in your mind?

One of the interesting points raised by this work is that deniers, who whine about forensic science and physical evidence, confronted with actual archaeological work and evidence, then begin whining about how long, er, actual forensic work takes. It is a bit funny, I guess, to watch this.

TazKa wrote:Now they are suggesting they need more time as it has reached to a level that it need to be dealt with delicacy.

Well, that isn't what the article said. As quoted above, the work is being done by hand and, to add to the quotation above, we learn that
Previously, they excavated the remains of the platform where the deported Jews arrived. They also discovered an escape tunnel that had been started as well as a Himmelfahrtsstrasse, or "road to heaven," as the perpetrators cynically referred to the 230-meter long path that naked Jews were told to take after getting their hair cut, allegedly to the place where they were to take a shower.

In other words, over the years they've been working, the archaeologists discovered other physical evidence aligning with witness and perpetrator testimony about the camp. One of the characteristics of this work, again, is that archaeologists don't discover everything at once but need to go a step at a careful step at a time.

TazKa wrote:I guess they spent all the money from their sponsors and they needed to show something to them that at least they are not wasting their money.

The article observes that the project has been funded by private donors. Will you please explain who these are, what the terms of the donations were, and what actions the donors have taken to demand quick results? Thanks in advance.

TazKa wrote:Now this is just my opinion please don't think i am being ignorant again.

You are.

TazKa wrote:All the links you have copied here are turning in the same cycles and not one single proof presented nor any tiny suggestion that why those remains might belong to a gas chamber.

For example, as to your ignorance, you seem oblivious to the fact that these are news articles, not yet scientific papers with details of the evidence spelled out. News articles give the conclusions but not the full, technical proofs for those conclusions. Also, in the Spiegel article, most people - not you apparently - can read that the team concluded the brick remains were those of the gas chambers based on maps of the camp (shown in the article) and the location of the discovery, on the dimensions of the foundations, and a variety of other features explained in the article:
everything suggests that they are -- the position between the Himmelfahrtstrasse, the crematorium and the remains of the barracks of the Sonderkommando -- the mostly-Jewish prisoners responsible for removing the bodies -- as well as a water hole.

Somehow you translate these explanations into not even
any tiny suggestion
as to why the team thinks that the foundations are those of the gas chambers. Your inability to decipher this clear text does hint to your ignorance, which may or may not be due to your bias and agenda.

TazKa wrote:Now in the article they say
Sobibór, the archaeologists need more work to be certain their recent find is the gas chambers
but they are still sure
the expectation that over time "remains of the rest of the gas chambers" will be uncovered
also i hope
fencing, the Himmelfahrtsstrasse
is not the one they showed in one of the videos that goes between merely 2 trees

This is simple. The archaeologists feel that they've discovered the gas chambers - they want to confirm the discovery with more work, they expect to do so with future work. The exact words they used were:
still we have to work on the west side to find the remains of the rest of the gas chambers.

This is an unexceptional, obvious statement of what will be done next based on what's be found already.

As to your comment on what the video shows, the clips are less than 30 secs IIRC: if you think that these show all the findings, you are even more ignorant than I've already concluded. Do you have no life experience - or simply special rules for the Holocaust?

TazKa wrote:Now why do they do this? I mean if they are not sure this is a gas chambers and they have been digging for 7 years and waited this long, Why not wait till, it is %100 proved.

The article explains this too. I'm not going to bother repeating what you missed in the article but only add this: you might turn this around and realize that, not 100% sure, the archaeologists have nevertheless shared preliminary results with interested parties and the public. If they are wrong, they will have to correct their preliminary results. The input of other researchers will help in this process.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:31 am

TazKa wrote:Do you remember i have talked about the questions i have in my head. Well it is all started to raise when i watched Caroline Sturdy-Colls' program called 'Treblinka - Hitler's Killing Machine'. In that program she has cried longer than she talked about the evidence why the bones she found belongs to the victims and why did she buried them back without investigating. After all she was a scientist. Anyway i am sure we have all watched the program as there was a thread about her in the forum.

Then i was in Auschwitz touring with a guide and listening all the atrocities Nazi's committed which in one of them Dr Mengele ordered to send a whole barracks of women to the gas chambers just because one of them had lice in her hair. As i was listening our guide i saw this [img]
Ausc%201.jpg
[/img]
this guy was from Holland and deported to Auschwitz in 1944 and next to his ID i have read this [img]
ausc%202.jpg
[/img]. This was Sep 3rd only 4-5 months before end of the war. This guy was severely injured and out of use. Yet he was admitted to camp hospital NOT executed. That made me start thinking what if the Nazis are as bad as they say. Of course the slave labour, road marches and shootings i do accept that but i think THERE IS an extra and exaggerated effort to make them something they are not.

Please try staying on topic.

I hope you've read and will share with us your comments on Dr Sturdy Colls's academic papers and her preliminary findings and are not so clueless as to decide scientific and historical questions by popular TV shows. Awaiting your summary of Dr Sturdy Colls's professional work, since I haven't read it myself but have her book on Treblinka on order . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:48 am

Nessie wrote:Archaeology is slow, back breaking work where time is needed so as not to miss or damage anything. I think TV has caused people to believe examination of physical evidence is done very quickly, from the two day flash digs of the Time Team programme Channel 4 in the UK, to the CSI, CSI NY and CSI Miami dramas where they solve a murder a shift.

That's a really good point re: influence of TV and especially the CSI shows on how people perceive scientific work: on TV the work is done quickly and with "problem-solving music" in the background!
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:18 am

Nessie wrote:. . . Then the Dutch kept records on who was sent to Sibibor from the Netherlands

http://www.sobiborinterviews.nl/en/nede ... erlevenden

For any who speak Dutch: http://nieuwsuur.nl/uitzending/2014-09-27/ - starting at about 18:00 and running to 30:38

Recent, interesting footage, showing archaeologists at work, artifacts, camp grounds, gas chambers - bits in English (especially survivor Philip Bialowitz; also archeaologist Wojciech Mazurek discussing the engines, features of the gas chamber walls)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:54 am

"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Nessie » Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:46 pm

Audiophile, motorbiker and sceptic.

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Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby TazKa » Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:35 pm

Before i forget i should probably thank you Statical Mechanic anyway, sharing your wisdom and resources (some i agree some i don't) When you asked yesterday about
The article observes that the project has been funded by private donors. Will you please explain who these are, what the terms of the donations were, and what actions the donors have taken to demand quick results? Thanks in advance
i have started searching a little bit about sobibor.

Now Nessie says

Sobibor as a mass grave

http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/photo ... 382-8.html
but did you know Nessie
[imgfit]
SobiborMonumentandMassGrave.jpg
[/imgfit] the greener grass areas in the picture are also the mass graves. i have also leart that Prof Haimi is working in Sobibor since 2001 with someone called Prof Kola.

Prof Kola has the explanation why the greener grass are mass graves (aprt from burried bodies being fertiliser hence greener grass) but because he has a money problem with the Polish Gov. he is reluctant to publish his works.
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... bibor.html
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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Pyrrho » Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:36 am

Topic has been split as requested.
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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:06 pm

"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:01 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:archeological findings? Like......

Gas chamber discovery at Sobibor spurs calls to review museum project
SOBIBOR, Poland (JTA) — After he uncovered the path that two of his uncles followed to the gas chambers at Sobibor, Yoram Haimi thought the complex he had worked years to unearth would be preserved for posterity.

So when Polish authorities announced in 2011 that they would build a museum and monument inside the former death camp, Haimi, an archaeologist at Tel Aviv University, went on the offensive, warning that his excavations of structures long thought to have been destroyed by the Nazis were in peril.
Polish officials dismissed his objections and advanced the project, which had been approved by the Sobibor Steering Committee, an international forum that includes representatives from leading Israeli and European Holocaust institutions.

Now two of those institutions, including Yad Vashem, the Israeli Holocaust museum and research institute and an influential member of the Sobibor committee, are calling for the $5 million plan to be re-evaluated following another Haimi find — in September, he uncovered the remains of Sobibor’s gas chambers.
“The recent discovery of the remains of the gas chamber at Sobibor have added a dimension to the project which requires further discussion,” Yad Vashem spokeswoman Marisa Danson told JTA on Monday.
Danson said the Polish government, following an appeal by her organization, agreed last fall on the need for “further discussions and new decisions” regarding the project.” She said the relevant issues will be addressed before work is resumed.

Tomasz Kranz, director of the State Museum at Majdanek and the person responsible for the Sobibor project, downplayed the significance of Yad Vashem’s reservations and said it only pertained to the gas chamber area.

“A new concept for the commemoration of the gas chambers is ready and will be the subject of debate,” Kranz told JTA in an email. “We are aware of the fact that the architectural project of the museum in Sobibor, especially the commemoration of the road leading to the gas chambers, does not appeal to everyone.”
Yad Vashem Chairman Avner Shalev declined to comment.

In 2013, the Sobibor Steering Committee announced that it had selected a design by four Polish architects for a museum to be built at Sobibor, where some 250,000 Jews were murdered and which is now an open field with a large monument covering a mound of ash from the crematoria.

The plan envisioned a mile-long wall along the path, discovered by Haimi, by which the Nazis led Jews to the gas chambers. The path was cynically named the Himmelfahrsstrasse, or “road to heaven.”
The wall would arch around to encircle Sobibor’s mass graves and finally run between the mound of ash to an area where contractors are now preparing to build the museum and visitors center.

Haimi says the wall will “run dangerously close to the mass graves” and that the museum’s parking lot will be paved on top of a wooden ramp discovered by his team, which believes it was used to offload new arrivals at the camp.

But Kranz insists the wall will not destroy any archaeological evidence and that the parking lot will not cover the ramp. Kranz and Polish Chief Rabbi Michael Schudrich maintain the project is under the supervision of rabbis who are responsible for ensuring it conforms to religious laws that forbid disturbing graves.
Nevertheless, the new findings have prompted several calls for a re-examination of the project.
“The work needs to be stopped temporarily at least, so we can examine the new findings and what they mean,” Frank van der Elst, a historian and board member of the Netherlands-based Sobibor Foundation, told JTA.

The Sobibor Foundation itself, which is also represented on the steering committee, has “certain reservations about the current design and is discussing them with Polish officials with the aim of reaching a consensus solution,” the foundation’s chairman, Maarten Eddes, told JTA.

The Netherlands has provided approximately $2.26 million for the project, Eddes said, split between the government and the Dutch National Fund for Peace, Liberty and Veterans.

Supporters of the project say it will not only draw attention to the scale of Nazi crimes, but also limit access to the mass graves, which are buried under a field where locals now cycle and picnic on sunny days.
Unlike better-known death camps such as Majdanek and Auschwitz, which have proper museums that protect sensitive historical artifacts, Sobibor is easily accessible. Only a single guard watches over the machinery being used to prepare the ground for construction.

“The walls will protect the site from anyone wishing to enter but draw their attention to it as well,” said Andrzej Kadluczka, chairman of the jury that in 2013 selected the project’s design from a field of 63 entrants.
Piotr Zuchowski, a Polish deputy minister and chairman of the Sobibor committee, has told Polish media that archaeologists will supervise the construction work to prevent loss, but Haimi says he fears the work will nonetheless destroy findings waiting to be uncovered. Haimi cites his team’s 2013 discovery of a metal plate bearing the name of 13-year-old Annie Kapper of Amsterdam, one of approximately 40,000 Dutch Jews murdered at Sobibor.

Haimi’s dig around the ramp led to the discovery of 15,000 objects belonging to victims.
When you start bulldozing and pouring concrete, there is no way to save objects like that, which are littered all over and buried in the soil,” he said. “Construction also means we will never find the entrance to the Himmelfahrsstrasse.”

For those reasons, Haimi says, “building inside death camps is no longer done — not in Auschwitz, not anywhere.”

Jonny Daniels, the Israeli founder of the From the Depths commemoration group, said he recently appealed to the Conference of European Rabbis to ask that construction be halted to protect the dignity of the deceased.

But Schudrich maintains there is no Jewish ritual problem with the project because it is under rabbinic supervision. The issue of bone fragments found on the surface, the rabbi says, will be solved by covering them.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby TazKa » Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:28 pm

Hi Statistical Mechanic.

I was about to ask you if there was any news in regards the Gas Chamber digging. Thanks for the update. Ohh also thank you for changing your profile picture too. it took me some time to realise It was actually you. You have gotten really old in a very short time period ...

So if understood correctly they want to build a museum over the findings even thought Haimi's instant protest that he hasn't completely finished the research. i wonder why ?
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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:51 pm

TazKa wrote:Hi Statistical Mechanic.

I was about to ask you if there was any news in regards the Gas Chamber digging. Thanks for the update. Ohh also thank you for changing your profile picture too. it took me some time to realise It was actually you. You have gotten really old in a very short time period ...

So if understood correctly they want to build a museum over the findings even thought Haimi's instant protest that he hasn't completely finished the research. i wonder why ?

LOL, yes, it's me alright. I feel much more like myself these days, older and - I hope - wiser.

I don't know a lot about the organizational history involved, but, yes, it appears from the article that the museum types (Kranz for the Majdanek State Museum, his advisers, and others) want to continue with a planned construction of a major memorial/museum on the site - and that the archaeologists/researchers (Haimi) are strongly opposed as doing so could or is likely to compromise the site for further research. Yad Vashem and the Sobibór Foundation, with Dutch participation, agree with Haimi and the researchers. The researchers point out that recent findings are a reason not to proceed with the museum plans.

I am surprised at Kranz's position - although he is a museum director, so maybe he looks at this from a memorializing rather than research point of view. I agree with Haimi on this.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby TazKa » Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:20 pm

Off the topic and i might be out of boundaries here but May i ask your actual age ?
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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:16 pm

Not at all, you can see that I am a bit on the older side and of a different time, just by looking at me - I stick with attire I'm comfortable in and don't follow the fads of the times: see, I was born in 1844, the picture of me is when I was relatively young, well compared to today - it all blurs together at this point but that picture is from 1902 - over 100 years ago, I can scarcely believe it myself
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby TazKa » Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:06 am

That's my bad Herr Boltzmann you did say it was you in the pic. I missed that. Hopefully we can see one of your recent pictures one day.
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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:39 am

"Statistical", as a young man.
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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Balsamo » Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:00 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:"Statistical", as a young man.
Baby 2.jpg


thanks for the laugh...
Isn't he sweet our little Ludvig...?

:lol:

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:16 pm

LOL
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:24 pm

Sobibór is in the media today.

First comes very sad news that Toivi Blatt, from Izbica, survivor of Sobibór who wrote and lectured widely on the camp, has died, at 88. The news comes by way of Alan Heath. The Majdanek Museum webpages for Sobibór (the Majdanek state museum includes the Sobibór museum as a branch) include a note on Blatt's passing. RIP.

Second, this rather breathless, rather garbled and misleading news item comes from The Daily Mail. The UK tabloid charges current-day looting of the Sobibór site, said to have turned up . . . something, along with looting of Jewish tombstones in Poland. The article has a number of outright errors to accompany its sensationalized rendition of whatever occurred - or didn't occur (see below); given the sensitivities, the throw-in material on the cowshed/tombstones/potty is scurrilous, especially given the lack of hard information on the supposed looting Sobibór. The juxtaposition of old news and images with the material on the recent looting is a particularly specious tactic.

According to The Mail, a "museum source" has provided the information on the unauthorized digging at the Sobibór site used in the paper's story. However, the Jewish Telegraphic Agency reports that Majdanek museum officials "emphatically deny" The Mail's story. The Majdanek museum website doesn't have any announcement - confirmation or denial - about The Mail's article.

I am trying to find a statement from the Majdanek museum; I consider The Mail's story tabloid fare - at least until additional information is available.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:05 pm

He outlived carto

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:14 pm

Marek Bem, Sobibor Extermination Camp 1942-1943 (2015) - PDF here
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:45 am

Book or article?

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:57 am

Jeff_36 wrote:Book or article?

PDF of book, 440 pages
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Xcalibur » Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:30 am

Really? The Daily Mail got something wrong? Say it isn't so.... Sorry to be ball-busting, but .....

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:38 am

I still haven't gotten over it . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:06 am

The Sobibór site is a branch of the Majdanek museum; next week in Lublin the Majdanek museum will be hosting a conference on plans for building a new museum and commemoration exhibits at the Sobibór site. Here is the program for the conference.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927


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