Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:40 pm

"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:51 pm



HE'S BBBBAAAACK! :D

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:54 pm



The fact that Himmler referred to it as SS-Special Unit Sobibor is telling. No mention of "transit" or "hovercraft" anywhere.

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:59 pm



Nice to have you back.

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:22 pm

:hmm: Pfft, drive-by post... :roll:





Spoiler:
.


Nooooooooooooooo, don't let it be!!!
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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby nickterry » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:02 pm



written by yours truly.

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:10 pm

nickterry wrote:


written by yours truly.


I read it earlier. When I get a chance I'm going to spend some time on the links in your article.

Thanks for posting it, I know I'll be seeing replies from deniers in the near future.

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:24 pm

Yes, thanks to Nick for straightening out so quickly, and clearly, the screaming headlines and somewhat wild text in the tabloids.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:34 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:


The fact that Himmler referred to it as SS-Special Unit Sobibor is telling. No mention of "transit" or "hovercraft" anywhere.

Am not sure about what I bolded^. If I understand correctly, it can obviously be inferred but is not stated explicitly as such?
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ments.html wrote:• 14 Uhr: Start von Cholm mit Sonderzug zum SS-Sonderkommando

• 15-16 Uhr: Besichtigung des SS-Sonderkommandos

The official designation for Sobibor was SS-Sonderkommando Sobibor; the camp was located in Chelm county, often renamed Cholm by the Germans. Thus, three separate Nazi sources confirm Himmler's visit to Sobibor in early 1943, two of which pinpoint 12 February 1943 as the exact date.
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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:36 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Yes, thanks to Nick for straightening out so quickly, and clearly, the screaming headlines and somewhat wild text in the tabloids.

My thoughts exactly. Thanks for posting them! :-P
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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:38 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:


The fact that Himmler referred to it as SS-Special Unit Sobibor is telling. No mention of "transit" or "hovercraft" anywhere.

Am not sure about what I bolded^. If I understand correctly, it can obviously be inferred but is not stated explicitly as such?
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ments.html wrote:• 14 Uhr: Start von Cholm mit Sonderzug zum SS-Sonderkommando

• 15-16 Uhr: Besichtigung des SS-Sonderkommandos

The official designation for Sobibor was SS-Sonderkommando Sobibor; the camp was located in Chelm county, often renamed Cholm by the Germans. Thus, three separate Nazi sources confirm Himmler's visit to Sobibor in early 1943, two of which pinpoint 12 February 1943 as the exact date.


"Sonderkommando" means "special unit"

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:42 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:


The fact that Himmler referred to it as SS-Special Unit Sobibor is telling. No mention of "transit" or "hovercraft" anywhere.

Am not sure about what I bolded^. If I understand correctly, it can obviously be inferred but is not stated explicitly as such?
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ments.html wrote:• 14 Uhr: Start von Cholm mit Sonderzug zum SS-Sonderkommando

• 15-16 Uhr: Besichtigung des SS-Sonderkommandos

The official designation for Sobibor was SS-Sonderkommando Sobibor; the camp was located in Chelm county, often renamed Cholm by the Germans. Thus, three separate Nazi sources confirm Himmler's visit to Sobibor in early 1943, two of which pinpoint 12 February 1943 as the exact date.


"Sonderkommando" means "special unit"

Yeah, but "Sobibor" apparently is not mentioned. Even thought that is what was meant.
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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby nickterry » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:46 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:


The fact that Himmler referred to it as SS-Special Unit Sobibor is telling. No mention of "transit" or "hovercraft" anywhere.

Am not sure about what I bolded^. If I understand correctly, it can obviously be inferred but is not stated explicitly as such?
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ments.html wrote:• 14 Uhr: Start von Cholm mit Sonderzug zum SS-Sonderkommando

• 15-16 Uhr: Besichtigung des SS-Sonderkommandos

The official designation for Sobibor was SS-Sonderkommando Sobibor; the camp was located in Chelm county, often renamed Cholm by the Germans. Thus, three separate Nazi sources confirm Himmler's visit to Sobibor in early 1943, two of which pinpoint 12 February 1943 as the exact date.


Yes, inferred. There was no other SS-Sonderkommando in the vicinity of Chelm/Cholm, this is what Sobibor was called in documents from the same time-frame, and we know from another source that Himmler definitely visited Sobibor in early 1943 without knowing the exact date. AFAIK this was Himmler's only visit to the Lublin district in the relevant time-frame (before the spring 43 letter about Wirth's promotion), the full Dienstkalender would confirm that beyond all reasonable doubt.

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:30 am

The archeologists also found the escape tunnel that the inmates tried to dig:

http://forward.com/news/breaking-news/1 ... eath-camp/

I thought I read that the archeologists found the cremation area but I can't find it.

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:02 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:The archeologists also found the escape tunnel that the inmates tried to dig:

http://forward.com/news/breaking-news/1 ... eath-camp/



September 1943 IIRC was when it was dug

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:37 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:The archeologists also found the escape tunnel that the inmates tried to dig:

http://forward.com/news/breaking-news/1 ... eath-camp/

I thought I read that the archeologists found the cremation area but I can't find it.

What cremation area are you asking about? If it's the crematorium, that seems to be marked in this image: http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/photo ... 82-10.html

(Thanks to Nessie for posting the link upthread.)
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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:22 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:The archeologists also found the escape tunnel that the inmates tried to dig:

http://forward.com/news/breaking-news/1 ... eath-camp/

I thought I read that the archeologists found the cremation area but I can't find it.

What cremation area are you asking about? If it's the crematorium, that seems to be marked in this image: http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/photo ... 82-10.html

(Thanks to Nessie for posting the link upthread.)


It was a description of the ground. They could tell where the fire was and how it affected the area.
I'm going to try and find it.

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:37 pm

Two colleagues brought this find to my attention: discovery by Haimi/Mazurek’s team of a pendant at Sobibór likely having belonged to 14-year-old Karoline Cohn, who was deported from Frankfurt, Germany, to Minsk in November 1941, when she was 12, and then possibly from Minsk to Sobibór on one of the last transports to the death camp (September 1943, at the time of the liquidation of the Minsk ghetto) (it is possible too that Karoline died in Minsk but that a Minsk deportee carried the pendant to Sobibór).

The pendant, resembling one known to have belonged to Anne Frank, also born in Frankfurt, was found where a building stood along the Himmelstrasse, the path leading to the Sobibór gas chambers. As these are the only two pendants of this sort, researchers are also pursuing a familial relationship of some sort between the Franks and Cohns. Read more:

”Who Was Karoline Cohn?”

Here is an article on this find with more background on the excavations at Sobibór.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:55 pm

From the article^
Archaeologists uncovered a building near the former "Pathway to Heaven" and, in the building's foundation, discovered some of the victims' personal belongings, Yad Vashem said Sunday in the statement.

Researchers believe that the victims may have dropped the items - including the triangular pendant - which fell through the building's floorboards to the ground, where they were buried for decades.

Could have been the place where they had to surrender those belongings.
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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:14 pm

A bit more on time frames: The Sobibór revolt took place 14 October 1943; Arad lists the Minsk ghetto-liquidation deportations as occurring 18-22 September 1943 - other sources have the deportations commencing a day or two earlier than this IIRC. One of these transports would have carried Sasha Pechersky, who would lead the revolt, from Minsk to Sobibór and, as I've argued, very possibly Eric Hunt's Treblinka Dusche-Meister, Heinz Rosenberg, who in all likelihood went to Sobibór and not ever to Treblinka (explained here and here).
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:57 am

scrmbldggs wrote:From the article^
Archaeologists uncovered a building near the former "Pathway to Heaven" and, in the building's foundation, discovered some of the victims' personal belongings, Yad Vashem said Sunday in the statement.

Researchers believe that the victims may have dropped the items - including the triangular pendant - which fell through the building's floorboards to the ground, where they were buried for decades.

Could have been the place where they had to surrender those belongings.

women's undressing hut (0:50)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVh1ZTq4ssM&feature=youtu.be
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:05 pm

Roberto posted this on RODOH, I can't see where this is added to any comment here:
http://sobibor.info.pl/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Report-by-Y.Haimi-Autumn-2013.pdf

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:12 pm


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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:47 am


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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Denying-History » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:28 am


To be honest, I personally feel leaving the site to die is for the best, just as much as it is to leave Auschwitz to rot. The remotness feeling that comes from the photographs I feel leaves a larger impact then seeing a monument.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:57 am

Denying-History wrote:

To be honest, I personally feel leaving the site to die is for the best, just as much as it is to leave Auschwitz to rot. The remotness feeling that comes from the photographs I feel leaves a larger impact then seeing a monument.



I'm for upkeep and preservation. A museum is fine with me as long as it doesn't disrupt any of the graves, foundations, etc.

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:36 pm

Last night I was at a party and wound up speaking with a fellow, let's call him Marek, who it turns out had emigrated from Poland to the US when he was 26. He grew up, he told me, "in eastern Poland, you never heard of it." I asked more precisely where, like near which city, and a geography lesson ensued, his continuing to doubt that I would understand where he meant. He began with "near Lublin." Eventually I asked if his hometown were near Piaski or Izbica, in that direction. Sort of, he said, but northeast of there. "Sounds like Chelm County, I have a colleague," I said, "researching Chelm during the war." Marek gave me an odd look, as though I were daft - and then explained that he had not met anyone in the US, in all his years here, who knew where he grew up. Indeed, it was in a town just outside the city of Chelm. I recognized the name of the town and asked hadn't there been a small labor camp for Jews there. He said yes.

Now I had to, of course, ask Marek about Majdanek. He'd visited several times and described the camp much as I imagine it - except for one thing: he told me that when he had gone to the camp as a child, he'd seen ashes there and had never been able to get them out of his mind. (I have to check on this. There's a famous photo of an ash heap found in the camp by the Soviets, but I can't imagine that it was still present in he '50s. Marek was not so impacted by the iconic display of shoes, which I asked him about.)

I said that I'd imagine that people in the Lublin area and even Chelm must have known a good deal about Majdanek, given the number of Polish political prisoners held there.

Marek told me that he was certain that was so but that as he grew up he had heard far more about Sobibór and Bełzec - especially, given the location of his hometown, about Sobibór. His parents (18 years old during the war) and aunts and uncles had told him much about Sobibór. Marek said that as an adult he'd read a collection of short stories about Chelm written by Isaac Bashevis Singer and that the world described in the stories had been wiped out - the Jews from his town were all gone when he grew up there - and from the entire area of Chelm. I told Marek about the excavations of Sobibór, which didn't seem terribly important to him.

I found it interesting that, given my colleague's research on Chelm and my own knowledge of Majdanek, when I tried to get Marek to tell me more about both interethnic violence in the Chelm area and the fate of so many Poles in Majdanek, Marek told me that I had to understand, the main thing was the elimination the Jews of the region. This is what his family had explained to him as he grew up - what they'd seen for themselves and heard about. Marek has toured Auschwitz-Birkenau, Sobibór, Bełzec, and Majdanek - each camp more than once; he told me I'd made a dumb decision last year when I decided not to go through with my plan to visit Lublin and Majdanek.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927


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