France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Balsamo » Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:44 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:thanks, Laval not listed among the 50 intended recipients?


The origin of the confusion:

the confusions are obvious, all three documents (the minutes of the two assemblies, as well as the protest itself confirm that from day one the Consistory decided to react to the raffle in the " free zone" through a written protest and not a letter. This decision was taken on the 23rd to reach Laval (and not Petain) and to bring him physically a written protest through a delegation. As soon as the 23rd it is clear that they would be NO LETTER.
Through mister Keife, we know that the Consistory had previous contact with mister Jardin, chief of Cabinet of President Laval.
Still at this point, it was clear that the Consistory considered it should express his protest through his president, Hellbronner.
To sum up the 23rd meeting:
- assessment of the tragic situation,
- need for a reaction.
- reaction through a protest brought physically to LAVAL, and through the president of the consistory.
- Discussion on how the protest should be written down but postponed to the next day.

On the 24th, the board of the Consistory is confirmed that Hellbronner would not be available.
It is decided that the protest who will still be brought to Laval by a delegation, will be copied and that those copies would be sent to about everyone who matters in France, as well as the diplomatic corps.
This is the stage where the protest could have been confused with "!a LETTER to Petain", although the Marechal is only one of the many potential recipients of a COPY of the protest.
But according to the minutes, the protest was adopted and written down on the 24th.

It is not clear whether the authors did rely on Klarsfeld transcripts of the minutes and the protest (as presented in his work) or if they did get access to the original archives. If they did get access of the archives, the question is how those documents are presented. In a file containing all the papers, that is, is the presentation clear to make the distinction between the Assembly (for examples does the original documents mention the date of the respective meeting or not?).
If they did consult the archives, was their level of french enough to grasp the nuances between those meetings and the protest? Or did they rely on a translator who could very well mixed things up?

if they only put their trust in Klarsfled summary which is backed by the above documents, well things are more difficult to understand, as the book - at least i guess has been translated in English, and its chronology is evident (when it comes to the document in the second part of the book)

On the other hand, the way Klarsfeld present the "protest" well...how to put this...can lead to some misinterpretations.
As a matter of fact, Klarsfeld gives the 25th of August as the date of the protest. (although we know now that was written the day before)...And of course, in fine, we now also know that the document in question is not dated at all. But still it mentions that the solemn protest was to he hand over to Laval.
Klarsfeld adds that " The authors of this documents are at the mercy of a reaction from Laval and his police, and because of that, their courage has to be outlined" (PS: more on this later if needed)
The pages dedicated to the protest of the consistory is (surprisingly short), in my edition pages 156-157, and no distinction between the dates are to be found in those two pages (actually 1 and a half).

Here is my translation of Klarsfeld rendition:
" The ,member of the Consistory, aware that they are living one of the most tragic hour of the history of the Jewish community, decide to write down a motion of protest against the deportation and to give it to the head of government through a delegation, the delegation is to be conducted by the Great Rabbi of France (Schwartz). A Second meeting is called on morning of the 24th of August and decides who would be the recipients of the motion of protest: It will be addressed to the Marechal Petain, etc..
.
Serge Klarsfeld, "Vichy Auschwitz", Fayard, 1983, p 156)

I let everyone judge this summary, which is quite surrealistic in my opinion, but offers the explanation of the confusion. From reading the above paragraph, one can honestly deduct that A protest has been written down by the Consistory and send to the Marechal Petain. Therefore, a motion of protest decided by a private Assembly and meant to be given by hand to Laval, can be understood as a protest written down and sent directly to Petain and all the other folks mentioned in the minutes.
the authors definitely relied on Klarsfeld's narrative instead of the primary source, that is the only explanation. As the only name written in Klarsfeld "summary" is Petain.

As for Klarsfeld rendition, well what can i add?
Can minutes from a private association serve as a proof of concrete actions? I do not doubt that those assemblies of the consistory took place. Sure decision were taken. But the minutes offer no clue whatsoever of what the assembly knew about the true nature of what was taking place ( that is extermination).
We can read that a tragedy was taking place, that the members of the Consistory were shocked, alarmed and that there was an emergency to act. But there is not a single mention of extermination in them, not one hint! Everything is revealed in the undated protest only.

I am really not happy at all, and that is an understatement, but i can only conclude that it should raise some question of what "peers review" actually means in this case. It is fine for me to rely on a secondary source you trust, but then you give your reference as it is, that is Klarsleld pages 156, but you do not send the reader to an archive that does not contains any support of what you are saying!!!!

PS: I am ready to translate the four pages dedicated to the documents, as well as the 1.5 pages of Klarsfeld summary, if needed.
If anyone has a better explanation, i am open to it.

PS: still waiting for some answers to my emails, but i fear i have left for too long, maybe they are all obsessed to decide whether the Gauls are or are not the ancestors of the French.
But i going to shake the tree... :D and keep your updated

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:45 am

Returning to the main theme of this thread, in his new book Fritzsche quotes at length from the diary of Hélène Berr, a young Jewish woman from Paris (who in spring '44 was transported to Auschwitz, then taken in fall '44 to Bergen-Belsen, where she perished the following spring). Berr worked for UGIF, which gave her access to a great deal of information about the deportations of Jews from France. In 1944 Berr asked herself a question which David never answered (among so many in this thread). Commenting on a deportation of 11 Jewish children in February 1944, Berr asked:
What use are the children? They don't send wives and children with the non-Jewish workers who go to Germany. The monstrous incomprehensibility and illogical horror of the whole thing boggle the mind. But there's probably nothing to work out, because the Germans aren't even trying to give a reason or a purpose. They have one aim, which is extermination.

Berr gave her answer to why the children - David has none. Fritzsche says that at this late hour in the Final Solution in France, Berr had begun using the term asphyxiating gas in her diary. She imagined herself "in Upper Silesia, maybe dead . . . snuffed out abruptly." (Fritzsche, p 188)

As an aside, Fritzsche notes that Berr, in November 1943, made a diary entry about the BBC radio news stories concerning "frightful details" about "the camps in Poland. Fritzsche assumes, from context and verbiage, that Berr had heard earlier broadcasts but not made a diary note about these. The shocking radio broadcasts on the BBC were first made in June 1942. In the Netherlands, both Anne Frank (in October 1942) and Etty Hillesum (late June that year) mentioned the broadcasts in their respective diaries. (Fritzsche, p 186)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:52 pm

David? You gave up?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Balsamo » Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:26 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:David? You gave up?


Sorry to disappoint but it has been a long time since this thread was more about me and you... :lol:

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:18 am

LOL
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Pyrrho » Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:01 am

Split and unlocked.
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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:32 pm

Rajsfus, The Vel d'Hiv Raid, p 9, quoting from a report of the General Intelligence Service, on the arrests of foreign Jews in Paris (3,747 arrested and sent to the Pithiviers and Beaune-La-Ronde interment camps), 14-15 May 1941: "The Jews seemed distressed by the indifference on the part of the French concerning these internments. Particularly, they stated that similar measures had been carried out in Belgium but they were revoked due to the discontent they caused in the general population."
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:56 pm

During the planning for the Vel d'Hiv raids, one critical moment was when, via Laval, Marshall Pétain's hesitation to arrest Jews of French nationality was conveyed to the Germans. The Germans worked the problem out with Bousquet on 2 July 1942, reaching the famous agreement to focus the Vel d'Hiv roundups on foreign-born Jews. As Jackson wrote in The Dark Years (p 217),
A compromise was reached: the French police would round up the Jews but the operation would be restricted to foreign Jews from both zones. The government ratified the agreement the next day. The Germans had intended only to arrest Jews between the ages of 16 and 40 in order to preserve the fiction that they were being deported to work. But Laval proposed that the deportations also include children under 16. After some hesitation, Eichmann gave his approval.

Rajsfus quotes some material I either passed over or hadn't seen relevant to this resolution and particularly to German intentions, which, I doubt anyone recalls, David said were restricted to the deportation of the foreign-born Jews, with only trivial "spill over" to French Jews.

Already on 22 June 1942 Eichmann had notified the German Foreign Minister that “There is a plan to send to work, in the Auschwitz camp, a first contingent made up of some 40,000 Jews coming from the French occupied zone.” (quoted in Rajsfus, pp 20-21) Earlier in this thread I'd noted that on the following day
Himmler ordered that all Jews of France be deported. When Laval was informed of this shortly afterwards, probably by Adolf Eichmann who came to Paris with that message a week later, Laval saw deporting foreign Jews as his only option, in the hope of saving Jews of French citizenship.
(Bazyler & Tuerkheimer, p 70)

Shortly after this, Dannecker wrote in a memo (Rajsfus, p 21) that
Bousquet is ready to send us, to start with, 10,000 Jews at our disposal for evacuation to the East.

Also:
I let Leguay know that on June 29, 1942, I expect to receive a concrete plan for the arrest of 22,000 Jews in the départements of the Seine and the Seine-et-Oise.

However, on 29 June 1942 Dannecker would inform the chiefs of SiPo and SD in France about the hesitation on part of Leguay (Bousquet's deputy for occupied France) who wanted to start with quote “truly undesirable elements” (Rajsfus speculates he meant foreign born Jews); Dannecker noted that he “will probably take control of this action” and demanded a force of 2,500 French police plus “another contingent of judicial police.”

Seemingly frustrated by French foot-dragging, on 1 July 1942, in an official report (Rajsfus, p 22, quoted from Klarseld, Vichy-Auschwitz, v1, p 224), signed by Dannecker and Eichmann, the Germans stated their expectation of the full support of Vichy and French police in upcoming action:
All of the Jews living in French territory must be evacuated as quickly as possible, which means we must keep up the forced pace of the work, pressure the French government.

Hagen's note on the key meeting of 2 July 1942 (quoting from CDJC, XXV, b-49) said, in part,
If the French government creates any obstacles to the arrests, the Führer will certainly not understand. Which is why they arrived at the following agreement: Since as a result of the intervention of the Marshall, French Jews are not, for the moment, going to be arrested. Bousquet is ready to arrest the number of foreign Jews that we want, in a unified action, throughout the whole of French territory.

"For the moment." Because of the stance of Marshall Pétain. Against the Germans' wishes. Still, the 2 July Oberg-Bousquet agreement meant that the French, "for the moment," would be compelled to agree at least to the German roundup targets and to arrests of foreign Jews in both zones.

Dannecker remained irritated, however, expressing his continued impatience with the French in a followup memo of 4 July 1942 (Rajsfus, p 24 quoting CDJC, XXVI 39):
It would be interesting to learn from Bousquet himself how he intends to prove the regular French police . . . are ready to tackle [the Jewish] problem on its own in a way that meets Europe’s interests. . . . It is necessary to make Bousquet fully understand that the French police in the occupied zone are first of all under orders of the commander of the SS and German police. Therefore they must even arrest Jews of French nationality if they receive orders to do so from Germans. . . . We must vigorously insist that Bousquet inform us without delay about the number of Jews that are presently in French concentration camps. I believe, in fact, that virtually all of them could be evacuated.

The complicated relations and politics of occupation would continue to thwart German objectives for the French Jews for over a year, but in the end raids, when success in making large-scale arrests was far more difficult, would increasingly target French as well as foreign Jews.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Balsamo » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:16 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Rajsfus, The Vel d'Hiv Raid, p 9, quoting from a report of the General Intelligence Service, on the arrests of foreign Jews in Paris (3,747 arrested and sent to the Pithiviers and Beaune-La-Ronde interment camps), 14-15 May 1941: "The Jews seemed distressed by the indifference on the part of the French concerning these internments. Particularly, they stated that similar measures had been carried out in Belgium but they were revoked due to the discontent they caused in the general population."


1941, are you sure ?

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:31 pm

Rajsfus says "May 14, 1941" on p 7, May 1941 on p 16; there's a typo on p 8, where he says "May 14, 1942" - on p 10, he quotes an article on the arrests printed in Paris-Midi on 15 May 1941, then on p 11 he cites articles about the raid from Paris-Soir of 15 May 1941 and 16 May 1941.

Lozowick (p 186) and Marrus & Paxton (p 223) give the date of the arrests as 15 May 1941, which has been my understanding, although my memory is not always the best.

Yad Vashem has a page on "The First Wave of Arrests in France: May 1941" with the date of the action being 14 May 1941 (but giving the number of arrests as 5,000, which I understand to have been the number of Jews summoned but not the number of actual arrests).

Yes, I am as reasonably certain about this as I can be. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but then so are YV, Rajsfus, Marrus & Paxton, and Lozowick as well as at least two contemporary newspapers.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Balsamo » Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:23 pm

Thanks, i was just puzzled by the allusion that such measures had been taken in Belgium but (SIC)" where revoked because of the discontent of the people".
I will check, but i am not aware of any arrest of Jews in Belgium before May 1941.
IRRC, the only operation against the Jews took place between december 40 and february 41, Foreign Jews were expelled from Antwerp to the neighbor province of Limburg - like 3000 or so. They were not sent to a camp, but placed in "civilian homes".
As soon as March/April 41, most were allowed to go back, except "Adult Males" who then went to Brussels.

This episode is often pointed out as the first collaboration between a Belgian police force (here the police of Antwerp) with the Germans, but that is about it.
As far as i know, that is not much, this episode was the result of some local initiatives motivated by security concerns for the strategic harbor of Antwerp, and not part of the Final Solution, or any other global Jewish policy.
So i am bit puzzled by the "people discontent", as the only people who would have been angry were probably the inhabitants of Limburg forced to lodge Jews from Antwerp... Again, Jews were not arrested to be put in some camps, by then, just evacuated to another province.

But then Antwerp should be considered as a separate chapter in the history of the Shoah in Belgium, as the city had specifics: an important historical presence of Jews, with a identifiable Jewish neighborhood, a clearly Antisemitic Mayor. The city was also full of Flemish nationalists organizations which often organized "private" pogroms, the first one being in April 41, probably fired by the return of the Jews expelled in the previous months.

A good reminder that it is important to remain vigilant when reading Rajsfus. I have a great respect for him, but he is not and never was a historian. His greater merits is to have dig into topic forgotten by historians, like the role of the UGIF in France. Still he is a militant.

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:33 pm

Balsamo wrote:Thanks, i was just puzzled by the allusion that such measures had been taken in Belgium but (SIC)" where revoked because of the discontent of the people".

I am not sure if the cited rumors were accurate: it's only what an intelligence report said that French Jews were telling each other. Whether accurate or not, it was a way they expressed their disappointment in their countrymen and women.

Balsamo wrote:A good reminder that it is important to remain vigilant when reading Rajsfus. I have a great respect for him, but he is not and never was a historian. His greater merits is to have dig into topic forgotten by historians, like the role of the UGIF in France. Still he is a militant.

For sure. And Warschawski's intro is even more "militant." This is why I am reading the book so slowly, comparing his discussion to my extensive notes on France and checking key references to the extent that I can. So far I haven't found any errors or misstatements.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Balsamo » Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:56 pm

Yes, this is why i asked for the year.
There will be a form of popular discontent, but only in 1942...well not in Antwerp, but not all Mayors behaved like Leon Delwaide...
As a matter of fact, the MBH and even Reeder who always opposed the deportation of Jewish Belgian citizens, will put a halt to the deportation in October 42, but by then, 16.000 Jews from Belgium had already been deported...Deportation will resumed in 1943, but as in the case of France, with much less efficiency.

I was just wondering if Rajsfus might have mixed up with the date of this intelligence report...

I have not read his book on the Vel d'hiv, but i did read the one on the UGIF... It is not so much about plain error or mistatments- while this one might be one (i still wonder why there would have been intelligence reports on arrests that did not take place) - but sometimes he kind of "overuse" some sources, or at least this is the feeling i had reading is UGIF work, which is a very virulent attack on the organization, sometimes too virulent...sorry no example in mind...

Rajsfus is a left winger Libertarian anti establishment, with a special hatred on police forces...typically the kind of guy i like...But then, not really the approach that suits with historical research.

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:25 am

Balsamo wrote:I was just wondering if Rajsfus might have mixed up with the date of this intelligence report...

Well, the arrests in France were in May 1941, the intelligence report commented on these arrests, so maybe but I don't think so.

Balsamo wrote:It is not so much about plain error or mistatments- while this one might be one (i still wonder why there would have been intelligence reports on arrests that did not take place)

Here it is you making a misstatement: as I've explained, the arrests in fact took place, in May 1941.

The “similar measures” (and response) might have been the first Star of David order in Antwerp, in November 1940, when Antwerp citizens came to the defense of Jews targeted by a German armband order.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:57 am

Further spoiling denier claims made in this thread about the Germans' Jewish policy in France is Dannecker's note of 6 July 1942 to Eichmann in Berlin (Rajsfus, p 25, citing CDJC, XLIX 35):
All the Jews in the occupied zone and in the unoccupied zone are at our disposal, to be evacuated.

Also:
. . . Laval has proposed that, during the evacuation of the Jewish families from the unoccupied zone, children under sixteen should be included. As for Jewish children who remain in the occupied zone, they are of no interest to him. Therefore I am requesting an urgent decision, if, for example, starting with the 15th convoy of Jews leaving France, we can also include children under 16 years of age. . . . [A]t this time we are only dealing with stateless and foreign Jews in order to get the program launched. In the second phase we will move on to Jews naturalized after 1919 or 1927 in France.

In this note Dannecker thus pressed Eichmann on inclusion of children in the arrests but also reiterated the reasoning for the Germans' temporary agreement to the French demands - "in order to get the program launched" - and signaled that the Germans would be raising the issue of naturalized Jewish citizens next in order to expand the number of Jews who would be subject to arrest.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Balsamo » Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:29 pm

Statmec:

Here it is you making a misstatement: as I've explained, the arrests in fact took place, in May 1941.


I was not talking about the arrest in France. There, indeed, the first wave of arrest took place in 1941 as you explained.
So i wonder why a rumor would have stated that similar measures - arrests - had been taken in Belgium while it had not. All i stated is that there had been no arrest of Jews in Belgium by may 1941, so no similar measures. Now i may have missed something, and will check.
So i only wonder why such a rumor would have existed by then.

In Belgium only two Judenverordnung had been issued by then, exclusing the Jews from public offices.
A third will be issued on 31 of May 41

The “similar measures” (and response) might have been the first Star of David order in Antwerp, in November 1940, when Antwerp citizens came to the defense of Jews targeted by a German armband order.


Maybe, indeed.
I admit i have never heard of that one...

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:18 pm

Balsamo wrote:Statmec:

Here it is you making a misstatement: as I've explained, the arrests in fact took place, in May 1941.


I was not talking about the arrest in France. There, indeed, the first wave of arrest took place in 1941 as you explained.
So i wonder why a rumor would have stated that similar measures - arrests - had been taken in Belgium while it had not. All i stated is that there had been no arrest of Jews in Belgium by may 1941, so no similar measures.

You wrote, "i still wonder why there would have been intelligence reports on arrests that did not take place." There were not intelligence reports, AFAIK, on "arrests that did not take place." So that's what I responded to. It's misstated. There was an intelligence report on discussion among French Jews in which they were said to have compared the reaction of their fellow countrymen to the reaction of Belgians to "similar" (alike but not identical) "measures" in Belgium. The quoted sentences of the intelligence report do not weigh the accuracy of the conversations among French Jews nor do they discuss "arrests" per se.

Again, whether the response of the French Jews was founded in actual events is a bit beside the point of the post I made, which was quite simply to register the feeling of abandonment among French Jews which even intelligence picked up. That said, I proposed one possibility for what the reaction of French Jews, comparing their situation to that of Belgian Jews, may have been based on.

Balsamo wrote:So i only wonder why such a rumor would have existed by then.

Either because it was a way for them to underscore their disappointment or because they'd heard of something like the Antwerp star order.

The “similar measures” (and response) might have been the first Star of David order in Antwerp, in November 1940, when Antwerp citizens came to the defense of Jews targeted by a German armband order.


Balsamo wrote:Maybe, indeed.
I admit i have never heard of that one...

I don't know. It is just seems possible that this is the "similar" event about which French Jews were overheard talking.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Balsamo » Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:47 pm

Sorry for the misunderstanding...
All i wrote was a follow up of my first sentence:
Thanks, i was just puzzled by the allusion that such measures had been taken in Belgium but (SIC)" where revoked because of the discontent of the people".
I will check, but i am not aware of any arrest of Jews in Belgium before May 1941.

Hence my interrogation was only on the Intelligence report mentioning the rumor that such measures had been taken in Belgium, not on the part reporting the arrests in France. Two differents things.
I do not doubt that there were indeed Intelligence reports on what was happening to the Jews in France, as soon as 1941, i suggested that Rajsfus might have used a ulterior intelligence report that would have mentioned the "rumor", as indeed there will be cases of lack of cooperation like when the David Star will be imposed, but that will be in 1942.

Since i just cannot understand why such a rumor would have existed in May 1941, as the first anti Jewish measures in Belgium were just starting to be implemented, and by May 1941 was limited to the public administration.

Again, it is possible that such a rumor had existed, but it seems quite strange nevertheless.
Again, this also might be the result of a translation issue. I will try to get a copy of Rajsfus book in French which came out quite a long time ago i think.

I realize that i was not very clear in my later formulation...it is not the first time and will not be the last ;) So sorry for that.

As i said, i have never heard of this "Star decision" in Antwerp in November 40, nor have i heard of people mobilizing the "danish way" to oppose it. I admit i am dubious. So i will check that. ( i DID notice you used might )

But then, it is just a detail.

I remembered that David suggested that the Nazis, especially the Heydrich /Eichmann hardcore gang, supposedly made some distinction among the Jews, assumption that was easily destroyed by the documents. You just posted some of them again. But then, David left the thread quite quickly...
As far as we are concerned, we start disagreeing much more on details, especially on Paxton thesis...I guess we still does.

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:08 am

I realize David and his cohort remain MIA. However.

Rajsfus doesn't hesitate to point out that native-born French Jews were sometimes caught up in the summer-fall 1942 raids. And that the Germans constantly sought to expand the pool of the eligible (for deportation) Jews. Also, he cites (p 60) a police memo from this period which stated that
These arrests affected people of all ages, from babies of 4 years old to the elderly of 66 years of age. . . . Lieutenant Röthke [Dannecker's replacement] said that one needn't worry about nationality and furthermore, a dozen similar operations were taking place in Paris at the same time. . . .

Sarah Montand, a young girl in 1942 - she managed to escape from the Vel d'Hiv minutes before her mother also escaped from the stadium - wrote a memoir which was published in 1993. She described (p 72) how in the Vel D'Hiv her mother
After seeing some paralytics arrive one afternoon . . . knew that the stories we were being serenaded with about going to labor camps were nothing but lies . . .

In this vein, I have jotted down references to where the French Jews were to be sent from the German documents quoted by Rajsfus:

- 22 June 1942, Eichmann memo to Foreign Ministry: "a plan to send to work, in the Auschwitz camp, a first contingent" (p 20)
- 9 June 1942, Leguay memo to Darquier de Pellepoix: "arrests and assembly of 22,000 Jews (for their transfer)" - location unspecified (p 29)
- 10 July 1942, Dannecker memo to Eichmann: "to be evacuated" (p 32)
- 15 July 1942: Knochen memo to German police and military officials in France: "the accelerated transport of the Jews to the territory of the Reich" (p 33)
- 18 July 1942: letter from SS officer Lischka to German military commandant in France: "will be deported to a labor camp in the Reich in trains of of 1,000 Jews persons each, within the next two weeks" (p 73) And: "No decision has been reached regarding the possibility of deporting children to the Reich." (p 74)
- 30 July 1942: Röthke summary report to German military command in France: "A total of 13 convoys with 1,000 Jews each will leave for Auschwitz during the month of August." (p 55)

I am not sure that Leguay would have known the ultimate destination of the arrested French Jews; among the German authorities - RSHA and German police, Foreign Ministry, and German military officials - Auschwitz was known to be the destination during late spring and summer 1942.

Recall that David tried to have it that the deportations of these Jews from France in 1942 were "only" "a weak effort to transport them back to Eastern Europe" to manage the "foreign Jew problem" in France. It seems clear, however, that the destination Auschwitz - not eastern Europe homelands - was known from early on, even if other terminology (to the Reich, for example) was sometimes used in communications among German agencies. We also know that Auschwitz was becoming a major destination for Jews of various countries, backgrounds, etc during this period. I will go back through my notes on other documents from this period to supplement this listing and update the comment as necessary.

(As a reminder to myself here, the gassing on arrival at Birkenau of the majority of the Jews on transports from France did not begin with the very first convoys in July but rather in early August.)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:57 pm

Here is some more on the HD "thesis" that the anti-Jewish actions and aims in France involved almost only foreign-born Jews and sought to return such Jews to their homes in the East:

Some of the proposals floated in French right-wing and pro-Vichy publications during 1942 on what should be done with Jews, quoted in Rajsfus:

- in Je suis partout, 10 July 1942, before the big raids in Paris, suggestions to imprison Jews (in general, not foreign Jews) as POWs, shove Jews back into ghettos, ban Jews from public accommodations (p 80)
- according to Au Pilori (p 89) Jews needed to be pursued with means more "reliable" than words; "Our doctrine has made us fanatical. We will not be half-hearted."
- Le Cri du peuple suggested that Jews be put to work on farms - to which a letter writer replied: no bread for Jews, drive them from France - again Jews in general, not foreign Jews (p 82)
- Le Matin proposed subjecting people who appeared Jewish to "genealogical-racial examination, to downgrade them to the status of inhabitants, or nationals of their lineage . . ." (p 82)
- L'Appel on 30 July called on Pétain to "Strike the Jews," "Take France back from the Jews," "make the Jews do French labor," "chase them out of the French community" (pp 89-90)

Justifications for actions against the Jews also were disseminated by these sources. Two themes that seem common were Jewish control of French affairs and the false martyrdom of Jews facilitated by the star decree. Some other explanations appearing in the press:

- Gringoire (on 5 June) reported that, Jeff Sessions-like, "The police have confirmed that 80% of attempted murders in the Paris regions are the work of Jews, most of them foreigners." (pp 79-80)
- SS Röthke on 18 July, in an order forbidding newspapers to report details on the Paris raids, urged the press "to portray the arrogance of which Jewry, far from mending its ways, continues to display now, as before, an arrogance that has made it necessary to take strong measures." Further, newspapers were to report that "basically, we arrested Jews who were engaged in black market activities, forging passports and identify cards, bribery, all types of large-scale trafficking and other crimes." (p 84) It should be clear from this thread that the Germans in planning arrests of Jews at this time, and in particular the planning of the raids beginning in July in Paris, targeted Jews, including children as we have seen, not criminals, and the criteria discussed in internal planning by the Germans and French did not match what Röthke wished the press to say to the public
- On 22 Le Matin, for example, duly reported on Jews in the southwest of France under the headline "The Jews, kings of the black market in the South-West" (p 85)
- Le Cri du peuple on 21 July told readers that "A Jew can change religion, political opinion or nationality but he will always be a Jew. . . . It is because we know that the Jew is the worst enemy of our fatherland, that he is the enemy of all peoples, that we no longer want him to penetrate into our national community." (pp 84-85)
- Je suis partout on 24 July, in an article entitled "Pity the Aryans!," lamented (p 88) that
The Jewish kid wearing the star did not want the war, but he could become the Jean Zay or the Bela Kun of tomorrow. That old Jewish woman looks harmless but she might have given birth to a Nathan or a Mandel. . . . All those "pitiful Jews" without regard to age, sex, nationality or social status, they quivered with excitement at the outbreak of the war that was to have abolished Hitlerism and which almost finished off France.

- Au Pilori complained that "the Jew is everywhere. He always poisons the domestic policy of nations as well as their foreign relations. . . . One of the difficulties in the hunt for Jews is the quality of their camouflage. We are familiar with the mimetic abilities of the Jews but the National Revolution has accelerated its development. . . ." (p 89)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:01 am

As promised, other references to destinations to which French Jews were to be sent, from my notes (most probably referenced upthread but now collected here):

- 11 June 1942: Security Police meeting in Paris (with reps from the Hague and Brussels in attendance) -
Eichmann informed them that, for technical reasons, it would not be possible to deport Jews from the Reich during the summer, and therefore Himmler had ordered the deportation of Jews from Romania and Western Europe for labor in Auschwitz. The deportees must be fit for work, between the ages of 16 and 45. It was decided to deport 15,000 Jews from Holland, 10,000 from Belgium, and 100,000 from France.

(Lozowick, p 193, from Dannecker’s meeting summary, TR.3-585, also RF-1217, dated 15 June 1942) This reference is interesting in that here Eichmann discusses proceeding with deportations of Jews from Belgium, the Netherlands, and France – in lieu of a deportation of Jews from the Reich, the same Reich which would during this period sometimes be named as the deportation destination for French Jews.
- 26 June 1942: Dannecker memo: “Bousquet is ready to send us, to start with, 10,000 Jews at our disposal for evacuation to the East.”
- 3 July 1942: 3 July 1942 meeting of the Vichy Council of Ministers. The brief protocol has a handwritten note added by Laval. This note says,
Il faut distinguer entre Juifs francais et déchets expédiés par les Allemandes eux-méme. L'intention du Gouvernement allemand serait de faire un état juif à l'Est de l'Europe. Je ne serais pas déshonoré si j'expédiais un jour vers cet état juif les innombrables des juifs étrangers qui sont en France.

(Siebel, pp 123, 344, my very rough translation: One must distinguish between French Jews and waste sent by the Germans themselves. The intention of the German Government would be to make a Jewish state in the East of Europe. I would not be dishonored if I ever expelled the innumerable foreign Jews who are in France to this Jewish state.) This is possibly a reference to Lublin, which is how Sébastien Laurent renders this; it is appears in Klarsfeld as Galicia. No Jewish state was set up in the East, of course, or anywhere in Europe.
- 13 February 1943 Himmler to Kaltenbrunner – order to transport 15,000 French prisoners from Marseille for labor service for Reich in Norway; 17 February 1943 Himmler instruction to Kaltenbrunner that no Jews are to be included on the labor service transports to Norway. (Donna F. Ryan, The Holocaust & the Jews of Marseille: The Enforcement of Anti-Semitic Policies in Vichy France, p 18). This is interesting because in 1943 French Jews specifically are being withheld, on Himmler’s order, from forced labor convoys (to Norway).
- 8 June 1943: Hagen's note on a meeting which Himmler had with Oberg during which the RFSS pressed for redoubled efforts to get the French to publish the denaturalization law with the 1927 cutoff date which the Germans sought, to enable a large-scale round-up and deportation from France of Jews that month. Himmler said that those affected by the hoped-for law were to "be deported to the Reich by 15.7 at the latest. . . ." (Seibel, p 237) This comment came weeks after the last of 4 transports of Jews from France to Sobibór, that is, during one of the transport hiatuses; the remainder of the deportations from France would be to Auschwitz, the first of these coming about 2 weeks after this meeting - but the large-scale operations, based on a denaturalization law and a joint Franco-German police action never would materialize. "To the Reich" - when Jews had been sent to Auschwitz or Einsatz Reinhard camps from western Europe for almost a year - was this simply formulaic at this point?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Balsamo » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:13 am

Statmec:
"To the Reich" - when Jews had been sent to Auschwitz or Einsatz Reinhard camps from western Europe for almost a year - was this simply formulaic at this point?


Isn't that a million dollars question?

Thanks for those last posts, and glad to see you back into some historical stuff. Unfortunately, i am unpleasantly busy right now, so i can only give you a "thanks".
I am finishing Rajsfus book on the raid, this i can still do as it is really short. So you'll probably hear from me soon.

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Balmoral95 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:21 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:As promised, other references to destinations to which French Jews were to be sent, from my notes (most probably referenced upthread but now collected here):

- 11 June 1942: Security Police meeting in Paris (with reps from the Hague and Brussels in attendance) -
Eichmann informed them that, for technical reasons, it would not be possible to deport Jews from the Reich during the summer, and therefore Himmler had ordered the deportation of Jews from Romania and Western Europe for labor in Auschwitz. The deportees must be fit for work, between the ages of 16 and 45. It was decided to deport 15,000 Jews from Holland, 10,000 from Belgium, and 100,000 from France.

(Lozowick, p 193, from Dannecker’s meeting summary, TR.3-585, also RF-1217, dated 15 June 1942) This reference is interesting in that here Eichmann discusses proceeding with deportations of Jews from Belgium, the Netherlands, and France – in lieu of a deportation of Jews from the Reich, the same Reich which would during this period sometimes be named as the deportation destination for French Jews.
- 26 June 1942: Dannecker memo: “Bousquet is ready to send us, to start with, 10,000 Jews at our disposal for evacuation to the East.”
- 3 July 1942: 3 July 1942 meeting of the Vichy Council of Ministers. The brief protocol has a handwritten note added by Laval. This note says,
Il faut distinguer entre Juifs francais et déchets expédiés par les Allemandes eux-méme. L'intention du Gouvernement allemand serait de faire un état juif à l'Est de l'Europe. Je ne serais pas déshonoré si j'expédiais un jour vers cet état juif les innombrables des juifs étrangers qui sont en France.

(Siebel, pp 123, 344, my very rough translation: One must distinguish between French Jews and waste sent by the Germans themselves. The intention of the German Government would be to make a Jewish state in the East of Europe. I would not be dishonored if I ever expelled the innumerable foreign Jews who are in France to this Jewish state.) This is possibly a reference to Lublin, which is how Sébastien Laurent renders this; it is appears in Klarsfeld as Galicia. No Jewish state was set up in the East, of course, or anywhere in Europe.
- 13 February 1943 Himmler to Kaltenbrunner – order to transport 15,000 French prisoners from Marseille for labor service for Reich in Norway; 17 February 1943 Himmler instruction to Kaltenbrunner that no Jews are to be included on the labor service transports to Norway. (Donna F. Ryan, The Holocaust & the Jews of Marseille: The Enforcement of Anti-Semitic Policies in Vichy France, p 18). This is interesting because in 1943 French Jews specifically are being withheld, on Himmler’s order, from forced labor convoys (to Norway).
- 8 June 1943: Hagen's note on a meeting which Himmler had with Oberg during which the RFSS pressed for redoubled efforts to get the French to publish the denaturalization law with the 1927 cutoff date which the Germans sought, to enable a large-scale round-up and deportation from France of Jews that month. Himmler said that those affected by the hoped-for law were to "be deported to the Reich by 15.7 at the latest. . . ." (Seibel, p 237) This comment came weeks after the last of 4 transports of Jews from France to Sobibór, that is, during one of the transport hiatuses; the remainder of the deportations from France would be to Auschwitz, the first of these coming about 2 weeks after this meeting - but the large-scale operations, based on a denaturalization law and a joint Franco-German police action never would materialize. "To the Reich" - when Jews had been sent to Auschwitz or Einsatz Reinhard camps from western Europe for almost a year - was this simply formulaic at this point?



Be nice to see the Rodoh mob's response... they don't tend to do deportations from west Europe.... inconvenient stuff like too many names, too many dates,and cetera.

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:06 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:Be nice to see the Rodoh mob's response... they don't tend to do deportations from west Europe.... inconvenient stuff like too many names, too many dates,and cetera.

Indeed. One favorite sport at Rodoh1.0 was trying to get any chimp to discuss France or the Netherlands. Ralphgordon once weighed in with brief critical remarks - more a quip than anything, strangely coherent for ralphie - on "Inglourious Basterds," noting that "the Nazis only sought to deport mainly Jews from occupied France who were foreigners, whereas the film has the Nazis hunting for French native peasant Jews." Pretty much David's mantra, too, both the bad gloss on Nazi intentions and the method of "disproving" the Holocaust via contemporary movies.

Scott Smith found it difficult to deal with France as his shower-fearing-Jews motif didn't work so well for him there - and yapping about disease control and hard but necessary hygienic measures against lousy ghetto Jews in France sounded like a stretch even to his ears. He never did answer, when asked about his claim that Treblinka was all about health and safety, what motivated the Nazis to move un-lousy Jews from France to ground zero for lice, disease, and epidemics in Poland, if their goal was separating out the contagious from the healthy.

As to names, dates, etc I have one Word document on France that runs 37 pages, nearly 18,000 words simply listing events and key documents, with short quoted snippets and bits of explanation. Too long for YouTube comments, Jesus, practically a Wall of Text . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:13 pm

I have to say about Rajsfus' book that it is very short, it doesn't cover new ground (it was written 15+ years ago, of course), it does include quoted portions of documents I haven't seen before (none of this is surprising), and it less polemical than I feared from the introduction. Nice if spotty coverage of French press reactions but disappointing on popular attitudes. Worth reading IMO but if you know this material, it is confirming more than anything.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:26 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: ground zero for lice, disease, and epidemics in Poland


He lies. Poland was mostly safe from those save for a typhus epidemic at Auschwitz in the summer of 1942. Any hygenic mesures would ahve been applied to those traveling west from Russia, not east from Europe.

His "fear of showers" nonsense peters out in the face of the fact that the deportees from Warsaw, Radom, and Lublin were mostly urban or town-dwellers, working to middle class, who had great familiarity with running water.

The more I read, the more I think that Smith shouldn't be allowed to post. You can find YouTube deniers who have done more reading than him.

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Balmoral95 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:56 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: ground zero for lice, disease, and epidemics in Poland


He lies. Poland was mostly safe from those save for a typhus epidemic at Auschwitz in the summer of 1942. Any hygenic mesures would ahve been applied to those traveling west from Russia, not east from Europe.

His "fear of showers" nonsense peters out in the face of the fact that the deportees from Warsaw, Radom, and Lublin were mostly urban or town-dwellers, working to middle class, who had great familiarity with running water.

The more I read, the more I think that Smith shouldn't be allowed to post. You can find YouTube deniers who have done more reading than him.


Not too many folks familiar would ever accuse him of broad reading on this subject. But he will, someday, ferret out the truth that Treblinka was a transit camp, proof of which is in the NARA archives. So he said in 2004. As with Fish on Auschwitz, big winds come from empty caves.

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:51 am

Yes, he lies. At Rodoh1.0 I once posted a long thing, based on some source material, on war-time, ghetto delousing efforts undertaken by dwarfish Ostjuden supposedly unfamiliar with - and terrified by - such things.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:45 pm

Himmler to Müller, in briefing of 23 June 1942 (from Himmler's calendar book), explaining his intent and ordering immediate action: "all Jews resident in France were to be deported as soon as possible." (from Eichmann-Dannecker note) Müller in turn informed Eichmann who set the July deportation action in motion. (Tuchel, in The Participants, p 121; this instruction has been covered generally above but without the specificity Tuchel provides)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927


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