France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue May 02, 2017 8:50 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:POLITICO on Le Pen's long shot: http://www.politico.eu/article/how-mari ... el-macron/


I think everything rests on the debates. The one thing that worries me is that , in so far as their respective debate skills are concerned, Le pen is apparently much more serious about preparation than Trump. She won't go off on insane fugue tangents about ten yer olds who are great at computers.

Macron needs to come out swinging here, and he needs to be nasty. Invoke history, and portray himself as the ideological inheritor of the values and creed of the Resistance, and Le Pen as the modern incarnation of Petain. Quote De Gualle, and compare the prospect of a Le Pen victory to the Fall of France in 1940. Call her a dirty rotten fascist invader who is unwelcome, ect. ect. He needs to display toughness. Even use some cursewords if possible.

That strikes me about as relevant to people's current concerns in France as if an American president staked his administration on Andrew Jackson's ability to solve the Civil War and told Americans to stay behind him on this. Especially since Macron seems to have little to nothing to do with the positions you want him to come out swinging on. Don't read this wrong but it would likely appear bankrupt - as bankrupt as Hillary Clinton came across - for Macron to avoid the current crisis, fail to offer solutions to it (does have any?), dwell on fear and the past, and strut and posture about WWII. It would cede the debate to Le Pen.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue May 02, 2017 9:03 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:POLITICO on Le Pen's long shot: http://www.politico.eu/article/how-mari ... el-macron/


I think everything rests on the debates. The one thing that worries me is that , in so far as their respective debate skills are concerned, Le pen is apparently much more serious about preparation than Trump. She won't go off on insane fugue tangents about ten yer olds who are great at computers.

Macron needs to come out swinging here, and he needs to be nasty. Invoke history, and portray himself as the ideological inheritor of the values and creed of the Resistance, and Le Pen as the modern incarnation of Petain. Quote De Gualle, and compare the prospect of a Le Pen victory to the Fall of France in 1940. Call her a dirty rotten fascist invader who is unwelcome, ect. ect. He needs to display toughness. Even use some cursewords if possible.

That strikes me about as relevant to people's current concerns in France as if an American president staked his administration on Andrew Jackson's ability to solve the Civil War and told Americans to stay behind him on this. Especially since Macron seems to have little to nothing to do with the positions you want him to come out swinging on. Don't read this wrong but it would likely appear bankrupt - as bankrupt as Hillary Clinton came across - for Macron to avoid the current crisis, fail to offer solutions to it (does have any?), dwell on fear and the past, and strut and posture about WWII. It would cede the debate to Le Pen.


I'm talking about the fear card, it works every time: "look at this crazy Holocaust-denying Nazi bitch! Do you want that as your leader?!?!" It would be a point and laugh fest. Le Pen cannot claim to be a patriot since her family stands for the opposite of everything that is France: Liberté, égalité, fraternité, three things she will grind under her swastika emblazoned jackboot.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not suggesting he should only do that :D . He should also call her out for being a hypocrite: saying that she wants to fight ISIS and leave NATO simultaneously....RIDICULOUS! That is a logical contradiction in terms. He should invoke the damage that would be done to the anti-ISIS coalition if France were to turtle up and run away from NATO and how it would benefit ISIS. The implication would be that she is a candidate who would be soft on terror by virtue of her isolationist, no matter what her posturing would seem to suggest. "Marine Le pen est le Marechal du L'État islamique!".

And lastly he should call her ugly. The French can be very sexist and that would play out well with Fillons conservative Catholic voters in the south.

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue May 02, 2017 9:19 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:I'm talking about the fear card, it works every time: "look at this crazy Holocaust-denying Nazi bitch! Do you want that as your leader?!?!" It would be a point and laugh fest. Le Pen cannot claim to be a patriot since her family stands for the opposite of everything that is France: Liberté, égalité, fraternité, three things she will grind under her swastika emblazoned jackboot.

First, it doesn't work every time. If it works every time, Hillary Clinton would be president instead of whining to rich people about Wikileaks. In fact, Clinton's prioritizing fear, when a large part of the electorate was angry with how things are, backfired. The "fear card" certainly didn't stop fascism, either.

Second, it depends on a credible messenger. Not Macron. Third, it depends on the fear resonating with the target audience. Those who are abstaining or turning in blank ballots - the persuadables - clearly haven't been scared into voting against Le Pen so far. Why would a cussing wild Macron ranting and raving about events and personalities from 70 years ago now do the trick?

Jeff_36 wrote:Don't get me wrong: I'm not suggesting he should only do that :D . He should also call her out for being a hypocrite: saying that she wants to fight ISIS and leave NATO simultaneously....RIDICULOUS! That is a logical contradiction in terms. He should invoke the damage that would be done to the anti-ISIS coalition if France were to turtle up and run away from NATO and how it would benefit ISIS. The implication would be that she is a candidate who would be soft on terror by virtue of her isolationist, no matter what her posturing would seem to suggest. "Marine Le pen est le Marechal du L'État islamique!".

This is completely different to what you suggested.

Jeff_36 wrote:And lastly he should call her ugly. The French can be very sexist and that would play out well with Fillons conservative Catholic voters in the south.

Then Le Pen could call Macron's wife old. Comparisons to cows and sea animals could be made. Etc. It would be quite a jolly old time.

I'm with Balsamo: mercifully you'e not advising Macron.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue May 02, 2017 9:38 pm

Balsamo wrote: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Invoke history? he does not know it


I am suggesting a change of tone.

He already did, though by stating very "popular" principles such as "there is no French culture" or "French Art"


Yeah........ he should not have said that.

During a visit in Algeria he also stated that France was indeed guilty of no less than "crimes against humanity"


I mean, Massu admitted to using torture and Biegard frequently performed summary executions, but the FLN were infinitely worse and IIRC did not shy away from butchering civilians for sport.

while not mentioning the word "Germany" during a visit at Oradour.


Meanwhile Marine Le Pen probably thinks that Oradour was just peachy, or that it never happened.

As for this golden boy to pretend being the ideological heir of the values of the Resistance, i don't think he would dare.


Le Pen is an open target: she would get laughed out of the room if she tried to reply - her family are the personification of treason and collaboration.


Back then, JMLP performance was not only a shock and a surprise, but also a matter of luck, a perfect combination of circumstances. Back then, the confidence between the people and the politics was not completely broken.


IIRC no one was more surprised than JMLP himself.


Today trying to brandish the threat of hypothetical regiment of brown shirts marching down the Champs-Elysee, the threat of some kind of "collaboration" and a Vichy regime, well just miss the point as today people have enough REAL fears to deal with: between terrorists attacks by Islamist's,


MLP would not lift a finger against ISIS - her leaving NATO would fracture the coalition, she is the Caliphate's candidate. In fact, Macron should say that at the debate!

daily relocation of factories, closing of others, with a level of bankruptcy among small enterprises and businesses which cannot afford to compete with eastern European underpaid workers and companies from the East,

..................And? :lol:

Look, what you describe has been happening all across the western world for a few decades now. It is nothing new, and no one could have stopped it even if they tried. Do't get me wrong, I don't like it any more than you do, but I'm not deluded into thinking that some nutter can wave a magic want and make it go away: C'est la Vie Aujourd'hui! Just like the industrial revolution put cottage industries out of buisness, globalization has put industry out of buisness. Sad, yes, but true.

Also: most of the industrial jobs lost in the States have been lost to automatons and robotics, not Evil Brown People. I suspect the same is true with France.


and now hundreds of thousands of migrants from the middle East, along the usual flow from Africa (flow even stronger since Libya can no longer stop them)...Those threats are real and perceived.


One can limit immigration to about 250,000 per year, pick and chose, screen, focus on migrants that can bring economic benefit. But Marine le pen wants to {!#%@} it down totally. That will wreck the French economy.

There are in between you know.

It is insane to still think that 40% of the voters have feelings for fascism, or nostalgic of Petain.


I wouldn't be surprised if there was an evil alliance between the Duiedonne crowd and the FN over there shred hatred of Jews and their shared admiration for Hitler.

And sorry to say, but Macron is not even a molecule of de Gaulle,


You're right about that. recall that I referred to him as a wastrel. But I suggest that he make a big, chest thumping show of Elan Francaise in the debate to win over the Southerners who voted for Fillon in the first round.


he is a small nothing promoted by big money, the corporation, the banking system, and the European Union.


He is fiscally conservative and socially liberal. Make of that what you will.

They all want to keep their neo-liberal EU intact : they love being able to hire polish workers at 4 euros an hour, to pay the social taxes to Poland, they want to continue building cars in Romania and selling them to the French, while the Banks wants more and more powers to create money instead of the State, everyone there is fine with millions of refugees who will drags down the salaries, bankrupt the national social welfare systems...


......................... :shock:

Your ability to lurch violently from radical left to radical right with the drop of a hat is stunning. I have never seen anything like it before the rise of this new populism embodied by Trump and Le Pen. One minute you defend the despicable traitors in SS-Charlemagne, next minute you decry American imperialism and express admiration for Sanders.

I suspect that you would have voted for Melenchon in the first round, and Le Pen in the second.

Now if we want a "long term" win.........


I suspect that Macron will go the way of Giscard. But Giscard was defeated by a mainstream party, not by the Milice.


You wrote that it is unpredictable, well it is not, unfortunately. It has just been too predictable since 2005.


Who predicted that the crown jewel of the free world would be ruled by a bloated dyslexic actor incapable of forming coherent sentences? Who predicted that a new menace, much worse than Al-Qaeda, would rise to become the biggest threat to the west since Hitler?

Ours is a chaotic world. No one can predict anything, we can only guess.

only a blind would not see how close we are to the situation of the 1930's, with two revolutionary programs - one from the left and the other from the right - smashing the "democratic elite" form both sides.


I'll take the "democratic elite" thank you very much

Will Macron - this little chick, with no experience at all, who has never been elected, who is a ultra-liberal of the dirtiest kind (the hypocritical kind) - be the new de Gaulle that would prevent a new 1940 (only the image)?
That is a joke.


i have no love for Macron - I have contempt for him. he reminds me of the pathetic little dandelion we have pretending to be our Prime Minister. But like it or not, he is the only thing that stands between France and catastrophe.

Then, the June elections will be the most important since 1958.


The Republicans will form a cohabitation with Macron, and Baroin will put Macron in a headlock and tell him exactly what to do if he wants to keep the coalition intact. Then (and this is only a guess), he will beat Macron in 2022.

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Balsamo » Tue May 02, 2017 9:47 pm

Statmec:

Which is why my first question for Balsamo was whether there was any possibility of the Mélenchon folks driving a bargain with Macron, to bring him their way. Balsamo convinced me that it is not possible.


Two things:
First the results out of Melanchon's base came out: 243.000 out of 450.000 participated to the vote
Three propositions were submitted:
- To vote "blank" got 36.12%
- to vote Macron got 34.8%
- abstention got 29.05%
"to vote Le Pen" was not proposed.

Melanchon actually made a hint to Macron, asking him to revise his position on the reform of the Labor Law, an answer might have made him ask to vote for him.
Macron turned him down, and even declared " Although Melanchon did a excellent campaign, that he led it with dignity and courage, he did not qualify, so he (Melanchon) is no longer fit to lead his electors" (yes, the guy is kind of crazy, but who cares). That might explain why 64% of Melanchon core supporters will NOT vote for him.

Macron feels so much as a President already that he has even said - although he will probably retracted his words - that the politicians who wants to join him or his movement will have to give up their affiliation to their actual political party.. But then, sometimes he just thinks "spring" too much".

One would have hoped that given the danger represented by "abstention" (people not going to vote) to him, he would have shown some openness...but nope.
He really plays with fire.

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue May 02, 2017 9:48 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:The "fear card" certainly didn't stop fascism, either.


On the contrary: the fear card is what enabled fascism to come to power.

Second, it depends on a credible messenger. Not Macron.


That much is true......

Why would a cussing wild Macron ranting and raving about events and personalities from 70 years ago now do the trick?


You need to understand that the two are battling for support from people who voted for Fillon in the first round. To appeal to Fillon's conservative voters, Macron must make a display of patriotism, and labeling Le Pen as a fascist interloper would work.

Jeff_36 wrote:Don't get me wrong: I'm not suggesting he should only do that :D . He should also call her out for being a hypocrite: saying that she wants to fight ISIS and leave NATO simultaneously....RIDICULOUS! That is a logical contradiction in terms. He should invoke the damage that would be done to the anti-ISIS coalition if France were to turtle up and run away from NATO and how it would benefit ISIS. The implication would be that she is a candidate who would be soft on terror by virtue of her isolationist, no matter what her posturing would seem to suggest. "Marine Le pen est le Marechal du L'État islamique!".

This is completely different to what you suggested.


I suggest he should do both.


Then Le Pen could call Macron's wife old. Comparisons to cows and sea animals could be made. Etc. It would be quite a jolly old time.


...Then Macron could accuse Le Pen of {!#%@} her father like Ivanka Trump did. He literally has infinite comebacks at his disposal.

I'm with Balsamo: mercifully you'e not advising Macron.


I'm just thinking out loud on ways he can win the backing of Fillon's supporters in the second round. You have to understand that the debate is Le Pen's last chance and she will come out like a damn dragon out of a cave. Macron cannot appear weak in front of Fillon's voters, I hope you understand the significance of that.

The debate is absolutely crucial.

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue May 02, 2017 9:54 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:The "fear card" certainly didn't stop fascism, either.


On the contrary: the fear card is what enabled fascism to come to power.

Of course. In part. But it doesn't always work. That's what you alleged. It works under certain conditions. That was my point: so the question is why fear worked for Trump and the fascists, not how fear always works.

Jeff_36 wrote:You need to understand that the two are battling for support from people who voted for Fillon in the first round. To appeal to Fillon's conservative voters, Macron must make a display of patriotism, and labeling Le Pen as a fascist interloper would work.

Not only. Turnout (abstentions) is another important element. I had thought you believed there's no chance of a Le Pen victory, in any event?

Jeff_36 wrote:I suggest he should do both.

Fine, but my reply was about what you posted first.

Jeff_36 wrote:...Then Macron could accuse Le Pen of {!#%@} her father like Ivanka Trump did. He literally has infinite comebacks at his disposal.

And people feeling dispossessed - and not simpatico to Macron - will do what with such information?

Jeff_36 wrote:I'm just thinking out loud on ways he can win the backing of Fillon's supporters in the second round. You have to understand that the debate is Le Pen's last chance and she will come out like a damn dragon out of a cave. Macron cannot appear weak in front of Fillon's voters, I hope you understand the significance of that.

The debate is absolutely crucial.

Again, I'm confused. You wrote earlier, "Le Pen has no chance in hell of winning" and "Le Pen is finished." Now you write that "the debate is Le Pen's last chance," which you earlier said did not exist, any chance for Le Pen that is.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue May 02, 2017 10:20 pm

Ok, I think Le Pen is finished, but the Politico article gives me the impression that the debate is her last chance, and that if she loses it clearly it will basically ruin her. If she wins, it will make the chances of a Macron win - which appears to be certain at the moment - decrease.

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue May 02, 2017 10:30 pm

My opinion on the need for Macron to present himself as a patriot in contrast to Le Pen is also derived from an interview I saw on Fareed Zakaria GPS with Bernard Henri-Levy. Henri-Levy was not really enamored with Macron but he lashed out at Le Pen and started that she was distinguished from other politicians in that "She lacks love of France, in fact she hates France". This was mentioned in the context of her admiration of Putin.

Macron could present Le Pen as a puppet of foreign special interests. The Putin thing has modern relevance.

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue May 02, 2017 10:35 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:Ok, I think Le Pen is finished, but the Politico article gives me the impression that the debate is her last chance, and that if she loses it clearly it will basically ruin her. If she wins, it will make the chances of a Macron win - which appears to be certain at the moment - decrease.

The POLITICO article I linked to was about how Le Pen could win this weekend (one major tactic being Trump-style voter suppression efforts), not about how a loss would "ruin her." I looked back through the piece to see where the point about "ruin" came up and failed to find it. The point of the article was what Le Pen needs to do and have happen to win this election.

But you're still contradicting your earlier certainty so I am not sure what you think about this weekend. For example, the POLITICO article could simply be click bait . . . but you seem to see a path . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue May 02, 2017 10:38 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:My opinion on the need for Macron to present himself as a patriot in contrast to Le Pen is also derived from an interview I saw on Fareed Zakaria GPS with Bernard Henri-Levy. Henri-Levy was not really enamored with Macron but he lashed out at Le Pen and started that she was distinguished from other politicians in that "She lacks love of France, in fact she hates France". This was mentioned in the context of her admiration of Putin.

Macron could present Le Pen as a puppet of foreign special interests. The Putin thing has modern relevance.

Or it could reinforce perceptions that her opponent has little positive to offer. Or remind voters that Macron is a candidate of special interests.

But you've seemingly walked away from the idea of Macron focusing on the war and war-time patriotism.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue May 02, 2017 10:39 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:But you're still contradicting your earlier certainty so I am not sure what you think about this weekend. For example, the POLITICO article could simply be click bait . . . but you seem to see a path . . .


I do see a path for her, yes. It is narrow, but it is there. It will start and end at the debate - the FN have to be in desperation mode right now because that debate is their last chance.

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue May 02, 2017 10:41 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:But you've seemingly walked away from the idea of Macron focusing on the war and war-time patriotism.


No, I think it should be part of Macron's efforts. The WWII thing is a case of imagery, stroking the heartstrings of Fillons voters and exposing the FN for what it is.

But the ISIL thing, the Putin thing, and her anti-NATO stance should all be used in a a general effort to depict her as a pwn of anti-western forces and a traitor to the struggle against Salafisim and Putinisim.

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Balsamo » Tue May 02, 2017 11:57 pm

Jeff:

I mean, Massu admitted to using torture and Biegard frequently performed summary executions, but the FLN were infinitely worse and IIRC did not shy away from butchering civilians for sport.


No one denies that war crimes have been committed - but then the defense would today claim that it was not a war but a "fight against terrorism". I did not take position on the statement, although i consider that crimes against humanity should be handle with care in order not to downgrading it.

By the way, general Massu is one of the second world war hero, a "compagnon de la liberation", he served by General Leclerc and the second "DB", Bigeard is the most decorated officer of the french army, and is even a myth. He started his military career as a "private", he was Sargent in 1940, captured, tried to escape 3 times, finally succeeded to reach Africa.

To assimilate those men, whatever they might have done in Algeria, to the Front National is worse than a historical mistake, it is also a political one.

Meanwhile Marine Le Pen probably thinks that Oradour was just peachy, or that it never happened.


Actually that was her father.

so not that i am aware of. She might not be sincere, but since she took over the Party, all signs of nazism, revisionism, are punished. JMLP was himself kicked out of the Party, of his party, only to be saved by the Republic's justice who declared his eviction as "illegal". But gone are people like Bruno Golnish and most of the veterans. Especially Anti-semitism is repressed by the new board.

Marine has been really careful about those topics.
Most of her executives come from the former UMP, come from the E.N.A (National school of administration). Florien Philippot, vice president, is gay. (Homophobia is no longer welcome neither).
Most of them never were related to the traditional far right movement before joining MLP.

So while those tools were pertinent against her father, it is "officially" no longer the case.

Le Pen is an open target: she would get laughed out of the room if she tried to reply - her family are the personification of treason and collaboration.


That is the point.
Her father JMLP and his first hour companions were target, and they assumed it. This is why they could never reached the level of the daughter.
As far as i know, there also are no charges of "collaboration" against the Le Pen family, not even a link between the family, treason and collaboration.
So i guess she could silence the laughter by saying that her grandfather, veteran of WW1, died on his ship when it hit a German mine, that by then her father Jean Marie was only 16. He finished school in 1947, volunteered in Indochina in the 50's...

Granted, her family seemed to have been close to the "Action Francaise" one of those far-right movement who rejected all form of "collaboration", precisely in the name of nationalism.

So i guess that those who would still be laughing would end up in front of a judge for defamation.

Not trying to defend neither him nor her, but as i said, there are enough reasons to attack them, to fight them, without having to "invent" silly accusations.

MLP would not lift a finger against ISIS - her leaving NATO would fracture the coalition, she is the Caliphate's candidate. In fact, Macron should say that at the debate!


LOL.
To leave NATO is the first thing the general de Gaulle did when he came back to power. Now to accuse everyone approving this decision as "Caliphate candidate", well...
Now, given the attacks and the threats on the country, given the facts that president Holland (while Macron was a secretary then a minister) had 5 years to defeat ISIS, instead of concentrating all his effort on removing Assad, i don't think he should listen to your advice in this case.

Look, what you describe has been happening all across the western world for a few decades now. It is nothing new, and no one could have stopped it even if they tried.


Actually this is why people are starting to follow any potential leaders who say that "it is possible".
I personally disagree that "no once could stop", as i do not believe in fatality, but let's not derail.
But here, you pointed out the real issue.

A long time ago, one of my respected professor, commenting about the financial system, said it is game that is inevitable as long as every player are willing to participate.
This is why the Brexit has been taken so seriously. Remember the flow of articles announcing the apocalypse for Britain? I let the financial system and the market answer: the footsie is at an all time high level.
Let's imagine that France announce that she will no longer support and be part of the EU and what it has become since 2005, imagine that she can convince Italy, Spain, Portugal to join a coalition for a new EU...
Of course it is possible to change the course, if there is a willingness. It would not be the first time.
Oups, i said, let's not derail... :lol:

One can limit immigration to about 250,000 per year, pick and chose, screen, focus on migrants that can bring economic benefit. But Marine le pen wants to {!#%@} it down totally. That will wreck the French economy.


I am not going to defend her program.

But i do not believe that it will wreck the economy.

Anyway, this is a humanitarian issue: there will be no solution if once and for all, a real willingness to aid and support the development of Africa emerges, give the civil society there a chance, promote real democracy, which is very possible if one is ready not only to give them back the property of their resources, but then only deal with decent government - basically the opposite of what has been done since decolonization.

Meanwhile a society cannot lose his soul by just watching those people die or drawn in the sea, and it is about time we assume our responsibilities, that is our governments. Melanchon has good propositions in his program on those issues.
But the precondition is that we accept to share the world's wealth we are monopolizing today: solidarity should be the base of every society, why should the international society of nation be exempted?
Am i derailing again?

I wouldn't be surprised if there was an evil alliance between the Duiedonne crowd and the FN over there shred hatred of Jews and their shared admiration for Hitler.


Maybe you could also take this topic more seriously.


You're right about that. recall that I referred to him as a wastrel. But I suggest that he make a big, chest thumping show of Elan Francaise in the debate to win over the Southerners who voted for Fillon in the first round.


That is what the June elections will reveal.
He will have to change though. Macron has behaved as an arrogant "chose the word". For me, he will bear the responsibility if he wins by a small (under the circumstances) margin, if he fails to propose something coherent tomorrow, the odds are not good as for today, i fear they will be worse tomorrow night.

He is fiscally conservative and socially liberal. Make of that what you will.


No one even knows what those kind of "semantic formulas" covers. That is the problem.
He wants to raise the CSG (cotisation social generalise), a tax that affects every type of income, even the pensions, while he wants to exclude financial assets from the "tax base" on which is calculated the tax on fortune, and transfer it to the real estate owners. So an old peasant who has inherited a farm in a "trendy" location will be forced to sell or to move, while the banker and speculator who has a 200.000.000 portfolio of stocks will pay no taxes. Reason invoked : to boost investments!

He wants to destroy the Labor Code, and leave the industry negotiate themselves with the workers (which would create a great new balance of power during those negotiations), exclude anyone rejecting two job offers within 4 years from any social support (this sounds normal for Anglo-saxon maybe, but then you should see what kind of "job offer" you get!!!) it is not how we conceive solidarity in Europe, for the rest...really, nothing but "think springs", or "everything will be fine if you think positive"...lol.

I should stop now or i could wake up wishing the election of MLP... :frown:

Your ability to lurch violently from radical left to radical right with the drop of a hat is stunning. I have never seen anything like it before the rise of this new populism embodied by Trump and Le Pen. One minute you defend the despicable traitors in SS-Charlemagne, next minute you decry American imperialism and express admiration for Sanders.


:lol: :lol: :lol:
Well, i hate mixing apple and oranges, and i am allergic to amalgams, as much as analyzing things through "ideological lenses". I was outraged against the Bush administration and its policy. I hated what took place in Irak and the mess that was left in the middle east, which is the source of our most important problems. But my hatred will not extend to the people of America, as they were some who opposed this policy, and those who were fooled into it, the same way, i would not consider the GI's or the Marines sent there risking their lives for what they were told to believe was the right cause, and won't treat them as traitor against humanity, and criminals, unless they are involved in "war crimes" and "crimes against humanity" of course.
Besides, i tend not to like "one sentence conclusion" to complex issues.
As for Sanders, well, i am hoping for any kind of outcome that would not involve a return to Nationalism and far rights.
I don't see the contradiction between supporting Sanders and decrying American imperialism, though

This is probably the greatest achievement of our "immoral civilization" to have brought theories to the status of incontestable "truth", almost dogma.
Repeat after me " the EU is the future, the EU is good for you, there is no future outside the EU"...in a Huxley scheme...not ten times, but thousands of times. And when the idea is well established, barricades are put in place:
If you against this ultra liberal European Union, which has destroyed not only the "European dream" that was shared by 90% of the continent, but also destroyed everything that constituted the "European way", then you are targeted as against "EUROPE", and if you against EUROPE, you must be a nostalgic of what was before, hence, a nationalist, those who collaborated with Hitler, or you even regrets Hitler, so you are a racist, an anti-semitic, maybe you wants concentration camps, hey...You are not only an idiot, but a sick mind...And so it goes.
You might try to defend yourself by saying: "Hey, i am not against Europe, i just want the EU to be based on different and more human and societal values"...no one would even listen to you.

This is why i am reluctant to use all those conspiracy themes, CT, etc. As it is really part of the arsenal of defense.

I suspect that you would have voted for Melenchon in the first round, and Le Pen in the second.


Yes, i would have voted for Sanders if i were an American, and would have never voted for Hillary nor Trump.
The same way, YES, i would have voted for Melanchon, and would never have casted my vote for Macron or Le Pen.
If i were US citizens, i would militate within the democratic party to change it, and crying on the fact that Bernie is indeed an old men, and that he needs to be replaced.
If i were in France, things would be different, because a loss, a near loss does not mean a defeat and a disappearance from the main public scene. I would be thinking about the June election, and trying to give strength to the movement.

The difference between me and you, Jeff, is that you consider all the craps we are living in as a logical historical evolution, which there is nothing to do against. I think the opposite, and not only do i reject any form of fatality - really remembers me of the middle age when every thing was the will of God - but i have the conviction that if there is to be a pleasant future for my children, the current craps must be changed, and the sooner the best, especially since, as you said, it has been the case for decades. Too many decades, Jeff.

But you last sentence is interesting, because for other people than me - i just cannot vote for the far right for personal reasons - well it might exactly be the case. Melanchon first round, Le Pen second, could very well be the scenario in 2022, i just hope it would be the other way round. This is what happens when the revolutionary spirit becomes majority. And if there is no way to find a link between the two extreme, then it becomes civil war, like Spartakist vs SA...and things get even nastier.

This is why time is important. Melanchon on the second round would not have turned France into a Goulag, but it would have opened windows to new perspectives, allowed new ideas to oppose the prevalent "dogma", and discussion would have led to a compromise. This is still possible if the people still mobilize in June.
And i am pretty sure that the vast majority of those who voted and will voted for MLP, just want the same: their voices to be heard, as it should be the case in a democracy. Ignore them once again, and they will turn their back on democracy that would have lost its democratic nature.

Sorry, long post. ;)

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Balsamo » Wed May 03, 2017 12:11 am

Jeff:

Ok, I think Le Pen is finished, but the Politico article gives me the impression that the debate is her last chance, and that if she loses it clearly it will basically ruin her. If she wins, it will make the chances of a Macron win - which appears to be certain at the moment - decrease.


I think you are confused on how European politic works.
I don't know how it works in Canada, but you are all supposed to be subjects of the Queen anyway, but unlike in the USA, the one who lose a presidential race does not disappear form the competition. Mitterand lost twice before reaching the power he held for 14 years, Chirac lost at least 3 times, before being reelected twice ( 12 years), Sarkozy tried to run again in 2017...

This is why maybe Statmec and i don't understand you using the term "finished".
If she loses with let say 41% of the votes, she won't be ruined but stronger than ever: She will claim to be the strongest political party of the country, she will probably win more seats in June, and if she does not, she will claim to be the sole representative of the forgotten 12.000.000 or more people who voted for her, and accuse the government to neglect them.
Quite the contrary to "finished" and "ruined".

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Xcalibur » Wed May 03, 2017 12:27 am

Balsamo wrote:Jeff:

Ok, I think Le Pen is finished, but the Politico article gives me the impression that the debate is her last chance, and that if she loses it clearly it will basically ruin her. If she wins, it will make the chances of a Macron win - which appears to be certain at the moment - decrease.


I think you are confused on how European politic works.
I don't know how it works in Canada, but you are all supposed to be subjects of the Queen anyway, but unlike in the USA, the one who lose a presidential race does not disappear form the competition. Mitterand lost twice before reaching the power he held for 14 years, Chirac lost at least 3 times, before being reelected twice ( 12 years), Sarkozy tried to run again in 2017...

This is why maybe Statmec and i don't understand you using the term "finished".
If she loses with let say 41% of the votes, she won't be ruined but stronger than ever: She will claim to be the strongest political party of the country, she will probably win more seats in June, and if she does not, she will claim to be the sole representative of the forgotten 12.000.000 or more people who voted for her, and accuse the government to neglect them.
Quite the contrary to "finished" and "ruined".


Reagan ran twice, 1968 and 1976, defeated in those presidential primaries before securing the Rep. nomination in 1980.

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed May 03, 2017 12:29 am

Ok, this is going to take a while.......

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed May 03, 2017 12:34 am

No {!#%@}. Nixon came back from his loss to JFK in '60 and won in '68. Kerry lost the presidential election and Hillary Clinton the nominating contest, only to go on to Secretary of State - and then Hillary . . . I will spare you. . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed May 03, 2017 12:41 am

Balsamo wrote:Jeff:

Ok, I think Le Pen is finished, but the Politico article gives me the impression that the debate is her last chance, and that if she loses it clearly it will basically ruin her. If she wins, it will make the chances of a Macron win - which appears to be certain at the moment - decrease.


I think you are confused on how European politic works.
I don't know how it works in Canada, but you are all supposed to be subjects of the Queen anyway, but unlike in the USA, the one who lose a presidential race does not disappear form the competition. Mitterand lost twice before reaching the power he held for 14 years, Chirac lost at least 3 times, before being reelected twice ( 12 years), Sarkozy tried to run again in 2017...

This is why maybe Statmec and i don't understand you using the term "finished".
If she loses with let say 41% of the votes, she won't be ruined but stronger than ever: She will claim to be the strongest political party of the country, she will probably win more seats in June, and if she does not, she will claim to be the sole representative of the forgotten 12.000.000 or more people who voted for her, and accuse the government to neglect them.
Quite the contrary to "finished" and "ruined".


I used those terms in the context of the Presidential election.

And yes, in Canada it is customary for party leaders who are unsuccessful in waging a Federal election campaign to step down. Not so much in the old days (Robert Stansfield ran for the top job three times in a row unsuccessfully, and McKenzie King was renowned for coming back from the dead like a zombie to regain power - three times in total), but today absolutely. Kim Campbell stepped down after the PC's were crushed in 1993, Jean Charest stepped down after he could not lead them back to power in 1997, Stephan Dion and Michael Ignatieff both stepped down after they failed to beat Harper in 2008 and 2011, Harper stepped down after losing to Trudeau in 2015........ It has become something of an expected custom for the "loser" to recede into the background and let newer blood take the party to greener grass.

I suppose that politicians have much more staying power in France.

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Balsamo » Wed May 03, 2017 1:00 am

Xcalibur wrote:
Balsamo wrote:Jeff:

Ok, I think Le Pen is finished, but the Politico article gives me the impression that the debate is her last chance, and that if she loses it clearly it will basically ruin her. If she wins, it will make the chances of a Macron win - which appears to be certain at the moment - decrease.


I think you are confused on how European politic works.
I don't know how it works in Canada, but you are all supposed to be subjects of the Queen anyway, but unlike in the USA, the one who lose a presidential race does not disappear form the competition. Mitterand lost twice before reaching the power he held for 14 years, Chirac lost at least 3 times, before being reelected twice ( 12 years), Sarkozy tried to run again in 2017...

This is why maybe Statmec and i don't understand you using the term "finished".
If she loses with let say 41% of the votes, she won't be ruined but stronger than ever: She will claim to be the strongest political party of the country, she will probably win more seats in June, and if she does not, she will claim to be the sole representative of the forgotten 12.000.000 or more people who voted for her, and accuse the government to neglect them.
Quite the contrary to "finished" and "ruined".


Reagan ran twice, 1968 and 1976, defeated in those presidential primaries before securing the Rep. nomination in 1980.


primaries, Jeff...not the same sorry...
How many defeated candidates in the run for presidency (national) not primary, did represent himself?

Oups, sorry Xcalibur, got confused by the two posts...
Statmec came with two examples, Stevenson (the second time almost by default) and Nixon, but it is not usual, while it is in Continental Europe, especially in France.
And yes, a loss on a presidential race has never been perceived as "being a looser", quite the contrary, it gave a status of "experimented" 7 years later ( now 5 years later).
JMLP participated to every election between 74 and 2007, his succession of losses has never had any influence on his leadership on the Party. It was ok as long as he was in progress. The fact that he did poorly in 2007 with around 10%, a dramatic loss from 2002, is what made the new generation realize it was time for a change.
Last edited by Balsamo on Wed May 03, 2017 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed May 03, 2017 1:48 am


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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed May 03, 2017 1:56 am

Adlai Stevenson lost to Eisenhower in '52 and '56. Like I said Nixon lost in '60 and won in '68. Dewey lost to FDR in '44 and then to Truman in '48. It's not a "known" rule that a loser in the nominating contest or general election is "finished." Not common to run again but not unheard of. Certainly the loser, in either phase, is not expected to disappear.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Xcalibur » Wed May 03, 2017 2:00 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Adlai Stevenson lost to Eisenhower in '52 and '56. Like I said Nixon lost in '60 and won in '68. Dewey lost to FDR in '44 and then to Truman in '48. It's not a "known" rule that a loser in the nominating contest or general election is "finished." Not common to run again but not unheard of. Certainly the loser, in either phase, is not expected to disappear.


And then there's Santorum :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed May 03, 2017 2:20 am

Lol
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Balsamo » Wed May 03, 2017 3:12 am

Jeff_36 wrote:bing


Bing what?
Do you expect a 10% drop by tomorrow?

It is systematic strategy, and that is the problem.
I would not be sad if it worked, but it won't...so

Let's see how Macron deals with the face to face debate tomorrow.

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed May 03, 2017 12:37 pm

By the way, for shits and grins, Andy Jackson lost (in an election that went to the House - the "Corrupt Bargain") in 1824 but won when he ran again in 1828 . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed May 03, 2017 5:52 pm

@Jeff_36, NY Times profile of Marine Le Pen, crediting Le Pen with more nuance and more savvy than you do, which concludes that
even if she does not succeed against the independent centrist Emmanuel Macron, Ms. Le Pen is likely to be a powerful fixture of French politics for years to come. She is a political veteran, a fierce debater and perhaps the ablest campaigner in the entire French political spectrum.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed May 03, 2017 8:29 pm

Trying to follow the debate online. Le Pen has accused Macron of tolerating Islamist terrorism. Macron has riposted that Le Pen needs to talk about her program, not his. And that her approach brings civil war to France and gives IS what they wish for. Two comments from Twitter:
Pierre Briançon‏Verified account @pierrebri

Sorry about analogy overuse, but if it were boxing and you were Le Pen's trainer, you'd start worrying about your fighter.

And:
Macron - Le Pen is like a cat playing with a mouse. Playful, self-assured, letting his prey escape, confident he'll recapture.

To Le Pen's attack on him that he'd sullied France's name by talking about war crimes in Algeria, Macron replies with Le Pen's assertion of France's lack of responsibility roundups of Jews under Vichy. The Guardian observes, "Very noticeable that Le Pen has a pile of notes in front of her that she keeps consulting. Macron has none. "
Helene Fouquet @HeleneFouquet

#Macron looks at #LePen with sadness, incredulity, disdain.Tries to show she's ignorant on any public matters. how to run country

I don't know these commentators and what points of view they represent. Balsamo . . . help!
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed May 03, 2017 8:31 pm

One more:
Hugo Gélin (@hugogelin)

Le Pen parle de Macron. Macron parle de la France.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Balsamo » Wed May 03, 2017 9:01 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:By the way, for shits and grins, Andy Jackson lost (in an election that went to the House - the "Corrupt Bargain") in 1824 but won when he ran again in 1828 . . .


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Ok, ok... there are some cases...
still there has been 45 elections so far...

I think the big difference is that until recently, there were no such things as primaries in France, and still today, it is only optional.
Usually, it is the leaders of the Party or movement who designate the candidate.
The V Republic is young (1958), and the first election by universal suffrage was 1965...it opposed the General de Gaulle and Francois Mitterand (who managed to be chosen as the unique candidate for the LEFT), he lost 45 to 55, New elections were held when de Gaulle resigned in 1968, but by then the Left parties were devided, so Mitterand who wanted to run was not designated. In 1974 he run again and lost by a very narrow margin to Giscard ( 49.2% vs 50.8%), he run again in 1981 and beat the same Giscard, he run again for reelection against Jacques Chirac in 1988, and was reelected for another 7 years.

Can one imagine in the USA, a child born in 1993 having a president who has been minister 13 times under the fourth Republic in the 50's, who was candidate for president in 1965 against de Gaulle?

Well by 1988, France was kind of disgusted of socialism, still a huge majority voted for him (54%), precisely because he appeared as the experimented "old wise man" and that his figure was reassuring to the majority. Chirac had no chance back then. Until the latest finally also appear as the "old wise men" to the next generation and beat the young Jospin.

If i insist on this aspect, it is to point out the main default of Macron...He is young, has no political background, is maybe handsome but has every characteristics that the people living in the countryside hates...he is 39, so he will still be young in 2022.
On the other hand, if Melanchon finds the strength to keep fighting in 2022, he will be the one endorsing the "old wise man" role, and even MLP would be there for enough time to get some kind of status.

Now we should all hope that Macron, somehow, finds a way to provide the solutions, and manage to stop the decomposition of France...hoping never killed anyone...

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Balsamo » Wed May 03, 2017 9:12 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Trying to follow the debate online. Le Pen has accused Macron of tolerating Islamist terrorism. Macron has riposted that Le Pen needs to talk about her program, not his. And that her approach brings civil war to France and gives IS what they wish for. Two comments from Twitter:
Pierre Briançon‏Verified account @pierrebri

Sorry about analogy overuse, but if it were boxing and you were Le Pen's trainer, you'd start worrying about your fighter.

And:
Macron - Le Pen is like a cat playing with a mouse. Playful, self-assured, letting his prey escape, confident he'll recapture.

To Le Pen's attack on him that he'd sullied France's name by talking about war crimes in Algeria, Macron replies with Le Pen's assertion of France's lack of responsibility roundups of Jews under Vichy. The Guardian observes, "Very noticeable that Le Pen has a pile of notes in front of her that she keeps consulting. Macron has none. "
Helene Fouquet @HeleneFouquet

#Macron looks at #LePen with sadness, incredulity, disdain.Tries to show she's ignorant on any public matters. how to run country

I don't know these commentators and what points of view they represent. Balsamo . . . help!


Sorry, but i am living in Central America, so i cannot watch it live, TV5 world is supposed to broadcast the debate at 6.30 pm...
From what i read from you post, i am afraid the level will not be high...

Until then, i am blind.

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed May 03, 2017 9:15 pm

Do you get France 24? Supposedly it is live on France 24. I can get it online.

Another, to your point:
claude askolovitch @askolovitchC

En deux heures de vocifération, Mme Le Pen a transformé #2017LeDebat en un marécage verbeux. Macron réalise un exploit de ne pas s'y salir.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed May 03, 2017 9:18 pm

Balsamo wrote:Ok, ok... there are some cases...

My only point is really in reply to Jeff_36, to clarify a difference between the US and what he was assuming: candidates who lose presidential primaries or even general elections in the US do not disappear. We actually expect many to keep going and are surprised when they don't (Ted Kennedy). There's just no hard and fast expectation as he described in Canada.

Besides I could not resist Jackson . . . :)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed May 03, 2017 9:22 pm

A tweet that conveys something a little different - that Le Pen is indeed horrid but . . .
Sophie Johnstone @soph_johnstone

@guardian @jonhenley @MartinBelam Great blog. Though still struggle to understand reasoning of Mélenchon camp to abstain; are they confident Le Pen will not succeed?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed May 03, 2017 9:47 pm

The Grauniad's conclusion (they are certainly pro-Macron):
That was ... nasty.

Most commentators seem to agree that Le Pen spent more time attacking Macron – as a banker, the candidate of the establishment, a socialist in disguise – than explaining her own project.

She was quite often, particularly on the euro, in difficulty and spent a lot of time shuffling her notes, sniggering and openly mocking. According to those following her followers on social media, it went down a storm with them.

I’m not sure how well it will play with the 18% of voters who have yet to fully make up their minds.

Macron did pretty well not to lose his cool. He managed to lay out the main elements of his programme and at the end scored solid points, repeatedly pointing out that Le Pen was spending more time insulting him than presenting her programme.

It seems that toward the end Le Pen accused, or came close to accusing, Macron of having offshore bank accounts, a charge which The Guardian says is not supported by anything publicly known.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Balsamo » Wed May 03, 2017 10:24 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Do you get France 24? Supposedly it is live on France 24. I can get it online.

Another, to your point:
claude askolovitch @askolovitchC

En deux heures de vocifération, Mme Le Pen a transformé #2017LeDebat en un marécage verbeux. Macron réalise un exploit de ne pas s'y salir.


Yeah thanks, i thought about it too late...
I could see the five-teen last minutes, and thought, "oh God, seriously"... MLP seems tired and very limited in her arguments, a very poor performance for me. Macron, well perfect in his role of expressing "emptiness" to a point it becomes an Art...but irritating, using words that the majority would not understand, pathetic also.

Will try to watch it tonight, in case i have been misled, i don't think i have missed anything.
The great winner would probably be Abstention, but surely not MLP...that is something...

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed May 03, 2017 10:26 pm

That's what I took from the live feed and commentary, that Macron was, well, Macron as we are learning to know him - and Marine Le Pen was a shambolic wasp.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Xcalibur » Wed May 03, 2017 10:54 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:That's what I took from the live feed and commentary, that Macron was, well, Macron as we are learning to know him - and Marine Le Pen was a shambolic wasp.


I was so hoping Macron was really gonna get pissed off and call her "Pochontas" :lol:

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed May 03, 2017 10:55 pm

LOL
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu May 04, 2017 12:38 am

Fwiw, from VOX:
A snap poll taken just after the debate ended by Elabe, a French polling company, and the television channel BFMTV gave the debate to Macron, with 63 percent of those polled saying Macron was the “most convincing,” versus just 34 percent for Le Pen.

Le Pen, the piece argues, floundered and was hit hard on her views on the euro.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927


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