Posting here my replies to CODOH

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:02 pm

This thread is for posts I make in reply on threads on the CODOH forum. I am doing this to show I am not dodging as members there think I am. It is because of the moderation.

So in reply to http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... =30#p67415

Preview: Re: The use of logical fallacies
Werd wrote:Your continued refusal to explain Wiernick's claim of yellow corpses being poisoned from CO and what possible number in Polish could have been confused for 30 in terms of depth of pits in Belzec AND Treblikna proves to me you know deep down inside places you don't talk about on this board that the Polish Underground and other forces were engaged in atrocity lies in revenge against Germany, and that Wiernik was lying when he said he saw yellow skin. Either provide a better explanation, or else it will be clear that the rational thing to be will admit he never saw yellow skin from CO poisoning because he is not an eyewitness. If he was an eyewitness to a real atrocity like gassing a bunch of people by CO, he would not have said yellow. I have checked not only all the literature that you pulled together at rodoh over the last few weeks, but other and have found NO REFERENCE TO YELLOW SKIN. There is no mention of it in your own sources you use in debates. THAT SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING OBVIOUS. Claiming red is a symptom but occurs very little because that's what it says in your sources, but then to claim yellow is possible even though it is never mentioned as possible is a HYPOCRITICAL, DOUBLE STANDARD USE of your sources. This is why moderators and posters are irrirated with you, among other reasons. Anyone who uses double standards has to in order to maintain something they otherwise can not when acting consistently. You have one last chance on this Wiernick issue. Now, FOR THE LAST TIME...AFTER WEEKS AND WEEKS...if you don't explain how either a mistake could have been made because yellow is possible, or he was colourblind, or give some other probable explanation for that given phenomenon (his claim of yellow), then you concede that Wiernick is not telling the truth. Follow the rules of debate that you are so fond of. PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

I post across a number of forums and not all of my posts appear. I have dealt with Wiernik and his yellow, maybe not directly to you. So again, he uses yellow to describe bodies out of the gas chambers and people who have died of hunger. Yellow is most commonly associated with jaundice and liver or digestive system complaints and neither fits death by CO or starvation. Nor does it fit those he said died from suffocation in the crammed chambers. I have never claimed yellow is possible, I have shown Berg's claims about obvious bodies being red is wrong.

So, as before I do not know why Wiernik said yellow to either and I cannot provide a medical explanation. What I will say is that he exhibits the same issues many other witnesses do to traumatic large scale events which will have cause him PTSD. Witnesses get details wrong, they exaggerate, they make mistakes. To dismiss Wiernik as a liar ignores evidence which corroborates his narrative of events at TII as it functioned as a death camp. So unlike you, I will not dismiss him as a lair.

I disagree with denier/revisionist treatment of witnesses by looking for details which are wrong and then calling them liars. Denier/revisionists do that so they can claim the Holocaust was a planned deception, a conspiracy involving 100s of 1000s of people.

Werd wrote:Furthermore, you pull the same modus operandi for this Treblinka problem hannover made note of and refuse to explain HOW the mistake occured. If someone says in English to another English speaking person, "give me thirty dollars" and they get thirteen, this MISTAKE is EASILY EXPLAINED because someone did not pronounce the word clearly and/or they were too far away to hear what was really said. So now the question is (and apparently you keep piling them on yourself Nessie - not our fault) what was it in actuality that they mistook for mobile gas chambers? Why did they think they were mobile gas chambers? Can you do something like find a witness testimony talking about thing A or thing B that could conceivably have been misinterpreted? Saying, "Mistake" and walking away does nothing, Nessie. Sorry. Mistakes require explanations. Something you are clearly not forthcoming with. You are only digging your hole that much deeper by dodging. The moderators have warned you so when you eventually get banned for dodging, running back to skepticsforum or rodoh and claiming oppression will get you nowhere. Your actions, or rather inactions, are your own fault. Your failure to heed warnings to cease and desist dodging is on you. Not us.

Again, please bear in mind not all of my posts appear when you try to accuse me of dodging. Mistakes are made by human error caused by a whole host of factors. The ones I would associate with being a victim of the Holocaust are; fear, stress, fatigue and pressure at the time. Recalling events afterwards there will be survivor guilt, pride, trauma. There are lots of studies of such, for example

http://www.rootcauselive.com/PowerPoint ... lysis3.pdf

"Exposure to these stresses leads to reduced sensory capacity, fatigue,
and reduced mental alertness. These to reduced sensory capacity, fatigue,
and reduced mental alertness. These are all manifestations of human fatigue
and all greatly increase the chances that the people concerned will make
a slip, lapse or mistake."


Werd wrote:Will you also soon forward an explanation as to how an "honest mistake" about super hot electrical plates inside wooden structures in Belzec and apparently now Treblinka could have occured? What was the misinterpreted phenomenon? Just give a credible explanation that would either have been photographed or mentioned in a testimony...something!

Will you also soon explain how an "honest mistake" occured about people claiming Jews in Belzec went into a big room that was filled up with water (and tell us how THAT was done too please) that was then filled with electrical current (tell us how THAT was done too please)? Do you have an explanation as to how an "honest mistake" like that occured? That they were dunking Jews in chambers filled with water that was electrified like a deep fryer? What was the real thing that caused a misperception in THAT instance? Are you willing to give one to us since you assumed a burden of proof and claimed it was an honest mistake? Or are you going to admit it was an atrocity propaganda lie? We are tired of you dodging. We are tired of you saying, "mistake" and just walking away without a proper explanation for a certain phenomenon. We are tired of your bad, lazy science.


Such information came from Polish intelligence from second, third hand reports from people who saw stuff but did not know what was actually going on.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... _8672.html

"It is unknown by which means the Jews are liquidated in the camp. There are three assumptions: (1) electricity; (2) gas; (3) by pumping out the air.
With regard to (1): there is no visible source of electricity; with regard to (2): no supply of gas and no residue of the remaining gas after the ventilation of the gas chamber were observed; with regard to (3): there are no factors to deny this [possibility]. It was even verified that during the building of one of the barracks, the walls and floors were covered with metal sheets (for some purpose)."

The report admits the exact cause is unknown and it makes mistakes, like the metal sheeting, just like many intelligence reports make mistakes. You seem to think that witnesses and intelligence should be far more accurate and mistake free than they actually are. Hence I cannot and do not need to tell you how rooms were filled with water or mass electrocutions took place because those reports are wrong about those means of death.

Intelligence is being reported daily from Syria and Ukraine which is found to be wrong. Does that mean they are both being faked and run by Jews in a big conspiracy, of course it does not."


NOTE - parts of this reply have been quoted from here by Werd. The actual reply has not appeared on the thread.
Last edited by Nessie on Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:29 pm

Reply to hermod on Jewish soap.

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8821#p67434

hermod wrote:........
"Well this does sound like a convincing argument from the other side"... A good expample for Nessie's fallacy thread, isn't it? I wonder if Nessie will use it to feed his thread with a concrete example. :roll:


There is no fallacy regarding this topic. It is an unsubstantiated rumour from a time when all sorts of propaganda and myths were flying all over Europe as people lapped up horror stories about their enemies. Even the most basic, common source for people searching for information states

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_made_ ... an_corpses

"The claim that Germans used the fat from human corpses to make products had already been made by the British during World War I (see Kadaververwertungsanstalt), with The Times reporting in April 1917 that the Germans were rendering down the bodies of their dead soldiers for fat to make soap and other products.[7] It was not until 1925 that the British Foreign Secretary Sir Austen Chamberlain officially admitted that the "corpse factory" story had been a falsehood.[8]"

The rumour is resurrected for WWII, not surprisingly as war and propaganda now go hand in hand and are both on a huge scale. This time Jews are the subject as they make up the majority of those in the camps. Subsequent enquiries

".....found little concrete documentation and no evidence of mass production of soap from human fat, but concluded that there was evidence of experimental soap making.[14]"

which is pretty poor as without evidence the conclusion should be it is was a rumour with no basis until what had been claimed to be human soap was tested and found to be so.

"In 2006 a sample of the soap archived at the International Court of Justice in The Hague was given for analysis to Andrzej Stołyhwo, an expert in the chemistry of fats from the Gdansk University of Technology in Poland. He concluded that some of the fat in the sample tested was of human origin. The sample of soap had previously been used as evidence in the post-World War II Nuremberg trials, but at the time the technology was unavailable to determine whether the soap had been produced from human fat."

I have checked that and found another descriptive of human tissue was found in the soap. I do not think that is conclusive as it does not rule out a form of contamination and it certainly does not say where the soap actually came from, let alone Jewish people were used.


NOTE - reply was posted unedited
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:17 pm

Human soap thread again

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8821#p67442

hermod wrote:
Nessie. wrote:There is no fallacy regarding this topic. It is an unsubstantiated rumour from a time when all sorts of propaganda and myths were flying all over Europe as people lapped up horror stories about their enemies.


So, according to you, "all sorts of propaganda and myths were flying all over Europe as people lapped up horror stories about their enemies" during WW1, but no such thing happened during WW2 and there were no horror stories intended to demonize the German enemies for propaganda purposes at that time, only reliable reports with a few little mistakes documenting the Holocaust. Is that what you think?


Not at all, propaganda was used in WWI and even more so in WWII. I was referring to the soap story with "this topic", so I thought it was clear I meant WWII.

hermod wrote:How do you distinguish between horror stories flying during wars (such as the stories about the German corpse factories during WW1) and reports documenting real events (such as the 'reports' on the Nazi gas chambers during WW2)? Isn't report just a code word for "the wartime atrocity propaganda chosen by the victors as suitable for history books"?


You research the topic and find out what evidence there is to support the horror story.


hermod wrote:
Even the most basic, common source for people searching for information states

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_made_ ... an_corpses

"The claim that Germans used the fat from human corpses to make products had already been made by the British during World War I (see Kadaververwertungsanstalt), with The Times reporting in April 1917 that the Germans were rendering down the bodies of their dead soldiers for fat to make soap and other products.[7] It was not until 1925 that the British Foreign Secretary Sir Austen Chamberlain officially admitted that the "corpse factory" story had been a falsehood.[8]"


Not a rumour. A lie. WW1 British propagandists even claimed that the corpses processed in the German "corpses factories" were turned into food for pigs in order to break the military alliance between Germany and her muslim Ottoman allies.


OK a lie.

hermod wrote:
The rumour is resurrected for WWII, not surprisingly as war and propaganda now go hand in hand and are both on a huge scale. This time Jews are the subject as they make up the majority of those in the camps. Subsequent enquiries

".....found little concrete documentation and no evidence of mass production of soap from human fat, but concluded that there was evidence of experimental soap making.[14]"

which is pretty poor as without evidence the conclusion should be it is was a rumour with no basis until what had been claimed to be human soap was tested and found to be so.

"In 2006 a sample of the soap archived at the International Court of Justice in The Hague was given for analysis to Andrzej Stołyhwo, an expert in the chemistry of fats from the Gdansk University of Technology in Poland. He concluded that some of the fat in the sample tested was of human origin. The sample of soap had previously been used as evidence in the post-World War II Nuremberg trials, but at the time the technology was unavailable to determine whether the soap had been produced from human fat."

I have checked that and found another descriptive of human tissue was found in the soap. I do not think that is conclusive as it does not rule out a form of contamination and it certainly does not say where the soap actually came from, let alone Jewish people were used.


A kind of "soap" from human fat arises as a natural byproduct during the process of reducing corpses for such purposes as obtaining bones to be used for educational purposes by medical students. You can find human "soap" in almost all anatomy institutes of the world. There were similar institutes in the Soviet Union. The Soviets knew they were lying when they brought a natural byproduct found at the Danzig Anatomy Institute at Nuremberg and claimed it was a soap made from the corpses of murdered Jews. They even claimed that they had found a giant factory where human bodies were turned into soap. No mistake. A deliberate lie.


Yes, lies, damn lies and propaganda (or myths or rumours)!
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:37 pm

Reply to Hannover in the human soap thread

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8821#p67440

Preview: Re: Holo-soap: a Nazi "intimidation tool used against the Je

Hannover wrote:Nessie quoted:
"The claim that Germans used the fat from human corpses to make products had already been made by the British during World War I (see Kadaververwertungsanstalt), with The Times reporting in April 1917 that the Germans were rendering down the bodies of their dead soldiers for fat to make soap and other products.[7] It was not until 1925 that the British Foreign Secretary Sir Austen Chamberlain officially admitted that the "corpse factory" story had been a falsehood.
So then, Nessie has reinforced the fact that Jews knowingly spread a lie from WWI.

Where is the evidence that the story originated from a Jewish source?

Hannover wrote:Nessie also quoted:

"In 2006 a sample of the soap archived at the International Court of Justice in The Hague was given for analysis to Andrzej Stołyhwo, an expert in the chemistry of fats from the Gdansk University of Technology in Poland. He concluded that some of the fat in the sample tested was of human origin. The sample of soap had previously been used as evidence in the post-World War II Nuremberg trials, but at the time the technology was unavailable to determine whether the soap had been produced from human fat."

That laughable canard has been debunked here:
claim: Nazis used human remains to make soap

It goes without saying that we'll never see this 'human soap', or the claimed test documentation, and there will be no verifiable analysis made.
Consider the source: Poland's Institute for National Remembrance (IPN)

IOW, judeo-supremacists with an agenda who have been shown to be untrustworthy. In fact, they've been proven to be blatant liars.
Again, they can't keep their lies straight:
"The soap rumor was prevalent both during and after the war. It may have had its origin in the cadaver factory atrocity story that came out of World War I. The soap rumor was thoroughly investigated after the war and proved to be untrue.

The fact is that the Nazis never used the bodies of Jews, or for that matter anyone else, for the production of soap."

- Deborah Lipstadt, Nazi Soap Rumor During World War II, Los Angeles Times, May 16, 1981, p II/2

At the time, prosecutors lacked the technology to determine whether the soap contained human tissue.
A bald face lie.

see, History of Microscopes:
http://inventors.about.com/od/mstartinv ... scopes.htm

My post also contained the following which you have edited out "I have checked that and found another descriptive of human tissue was found in the soap. I do not think that is conclusive as it does not rule out a form of contamination and it certainly does not say where the soap actually came from, let alone Jewish people were used." So I was dubious anyway of the claim.

Hannover wrote:And of course any Wiki 'fact' that pertains to the self interests of racist Jews must be considered highly biased and very suspect.
see:
Zionist Wikipedia Editing Course
and:
Jewish Internet Defense Force
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Int ... ense_Force

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. Truth needs no protection from scrutiny. The tide is turning.

- Hannover

I said I used Wiki as it is a "basic, common source for people searching for information." It reads as balanced and showing both claim and counter claim and that the claim of human soap is poorly evidenced and suspect.

NOTE - reply posted unedited
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Cerdic » Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:05 pm

Do any CODOHians read here? They'll probably remain in ignorance about your replies to the revisionist posters.
„(...) Wenn wir irgendetwas beim Nationalsozialismus anerkennen, dann ist es die Anerkennung, daß ihm zum ersten Mal in der deutschen Politik die restlose Mobilisierung der menschlichen Dummheit gelungen ist.“ Kurt Schumacher 23. Februar 1932

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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:27 pm

Good point, I do not know. I figured this was the best place to keep a thread going and it would not be edited :D

Reply Hannover on human soap

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8821#p67446


Preview: Re: Holo-soap: a Nazi "intimidation tool used against the Je

Hannover wrote:Nessie, you said:

Where is the evidence that the story originated from a Jewish source?

The lie was propagated by Jews during WWII who knew it was a lie from WWI. After all, it was you who posted that it was an admitted, known lie from WWI. The specific liars have been mentioned in this thread.


I see a name Rabbi Wise and I understand the lie is first recorded from Lublin in October 1942. Where is the evidence he started it and that he knew it was a lie?

Hannover wrote:and:

My post also contained the following which you have edited out "I have checked that and found another descriptive of human tissue was found in the soap. I do not think that is conclusive as it does not rule out a form of contamination and it certainly does not say where the soap actually came from, let alone Jewish people were used." So I was dubious anyway of the claim.

A strawman from you Nessie, I edited nothing, I did not respond to it to because you admit the claim was "dubious". But while we're at it, show us the study that "human tissue was found in the soap." Show us the study.

That is not a strawman. You did edit part of my post in your response. That is a fact. We agree the report is not to be relied upon. I did not find the reference to human tissue in any report, I found it in a general search of "human soap 2006" to see if I could find the original report, which I cannot.

Hannover wrote:and:

I said I used Wiki as it is a "basic, common source for people searching for information." It reads as balanced and showing both claim and counter claim and that the claim of human soap is poorly evidenced and suspect.

It reads as a lie as I have shown, the points you ignored as usual. Balanced only to those who have been trapped into believing in the unproven and impossible 'holocaust' storyline.

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. Truth needs no protection from scrutiny. The tide is turning.

- Hannover

The Wiki article references claims and counter claims about human soap and leaves any reader in no doubt it was not produced and the evidence some was made is inconclusive.
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:34 pm

Reply to borjastick

borjastick wrote:If it was true and they had sufficient hard evidence and scientific back up they would be pushing this over and over to this day. Every now and again the Holocaust management team, which probably includes people like Nessie trot it out to shock and fill with horror the naive. It's a lie. The human soap fallacy just doesn't wash!

However one other lie from the same barrel of tricks is still doing the rounds, and the inbreds won't let go of it. I am of course talking of human skin lampshades. The original one shown at Buchenwald in the US Psyche Warfare team outing home movie disappeared long ago. No surprise there then. But every now and again another one pops up. There was recently which turned up in New Orleans I think. Of course it was proven to be goat skin not human but the hard liners still reckon it's real and there could be one around somewhere...


I have never started a thread on human soap or skin lamp shades. I sometimes contribute to them, as here agreeing they are myths.
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:53 am

Reply posted after here

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... =30#p67470

Taking witness errors and intelligence report mistakes and then dismissing them as incredulous is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The denier/revisionist aim is to dismiss all witness evidence by concentrating on a few who have lied or made unexplainable comments or clear mistakes. That is a different subject to the use of fallacies.

Werd, hermod, borjastick your desire to discuss that issue about witnesses is a red herring fallacy.


Note - posted unedited
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:37 am

Reply here

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8828#p67455

The other area where historians have disagreed is the numbers killed. For example here various historians answer questions about the numbers killed

D MIttleman "academic estimates from 4.8 million to 7.5 million"

RJ Green "Most sources put the number of non-Jews at between 5 and 6 million, roughly equal to the number of Jews murdered."

A Mathis "Hilberg's death-toll estimate (5.1 million) is at the lower end of the range accepted by most Holocaust historians. A precise accounting is virtually impossible, but most estimates are in the 5.8 million range."

http://www.holocaust-history.org/questi ... bers.shtml

The link details estimates, who made them and the disagreement between them and it acknowledges the erroneous 4 million figure for Auschwitz.
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:55 pm

Post here on a topic about witness conspiracy

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... ess#p52660

Denier/revisionists need a witness conspiracy, whether organised by hoax central or stoking the fires of a myth like witch craft. The best way to cultivate the Holocaust as a myth story is to concentrate on the known liars and avoid those with credibility and corroboration of what they claim. Then with the credible ones find errors or hyperbole and try to discredit them that way. The aim is to be left with no one at all who is believed to speak to the Holocaust and its planning, gas chambers and millions of dead.

The problem is that denier/revisionist have had to develop a new way of looking at witness evidence. One which is not shared by the courts or academics. There is a claim that witnesses get it right all the time or they lie. They never exaggerate, they lie. Intelligence reports are always accurate or they lie. An example of the study is found here

http://www.simplypsychology.org/eyewitn ... imony.html

"Bartlett ’s theory of reconstructive memory is crucial to an understanding of the reliability of eyewitness testimony as he suggested that recall is subject to personal interpretation dependent on our learnt or cultural norms and values, and the way we make sense of our world. Many people believe that memory works something like a videotape. Storing information is like recording and remembering is like playing back what was recorded. With information being retrieved in much the same form as it was encoded. However, memory does not work in this way. It is a feature of human memory that we do not store information exactly as it is presented to us. Rather, people extract from information the gist, or underlying meaning.

In other words, people store information in the way that makes the most sense to them. We make sense of information by trying to fit it into schemas, which are a way of organizing information."

The denier/revisionist view of eye witnesses is contrary to what the study of eye witnesses tells us. They will make mistakes. That does not mean they are therefore wholly invalid. So when Yankel Wiernik talks of yellow corpses from people who have died from hunger or come out of the gas chamber, we know memory is fallible and it reasonable to expect when recalling a large scale traumatic event there will be mistakes.

Denier/revisionists need to evidence why they are right to dismiss so many thousands of witnesses as lying or mistaken when we know already witnesses get it wrong at times, but right on many occasions.


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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:15 pm

Reply to Werd (I know you know about this thread now. So please note I do reply to your points)

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... =30#p67473

Werd wrote:by Nessie » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:53 am
Reply posted after here

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... =30#p67470

Taking witness errors and intelligence report mistakes and then dismissing them as incredulous is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The denier/revisionist aim is to dismiss all witness evidence by concentrating on a few who have lied or made unexplainable comments or clear mistakes. That is a different subject to the use of fallacies.

Werd, hermod, borjastick your desire to discuss that issue about witnesses is a red herring fallacy.

:lol: Right on cue. I predicted in another topic, in another post, he would go this route.
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?p=67469#p67469

Nessie, you misunderstand by accident, or on purpose. The revisionist aim is not to dismiss all witness statements because we quote witness statements all the time who say they never heard of gas chambers after the war. We do not consider Paul Rassinier and Joseph Burg to be liars. We consider authors of the Polish Underground reports to be liars with their claims of pits thirty meters deep and others like . Get it straight and knock off the strawman.

If the holocaust is held up partially by witness statements, then you can't claim to have proof without witness statements. This means witness statements have been analayzed and accepted as true by some people. So when someone claims something, then have an onus probandi, a burden of proof. So by making clamis, they open themselves up to criticism. And if we find some reports to be incorrect, those witnesses can be dismissed as lacking credibility. If you want to salvage any of their testimony, you have to look elsewhere to see if others who don't make incredible claims that violate the laws of physics are able to prove these other parts of testimony that are possibly salvagable.

How's that for deductive logic, Nessie?


It sounds logical, until you look at the study of eye witness testimony and memory and how courts and academics deal with witnesses. Then you realise denier/revisionists behave differently to eye witnesses and have yet to justify how they can do that. I have resurrected another thread on witnesses to continue that discussion. On topic here is you are cherry picking only witnesses who agree with your desired conclusion and finding spurious reasons to dismiss those who do not. Do Rassinier and Burg give perfect, mistake free eye witness evidence? Can you show that do? If not then by your reasoning they too should be dismissed.

Werd wrote:By the way you still haven't answered my questions in my last post. Let me remind you...

1. How is it that fatigue and trauma prevents Wiernick, a non blind, non colour blind man from seperating yellow and red, but doesn't prevent him from remembering other intricate, more complex details such as ones already mentioned by me? Can can give examples of stress causing people who AREN'T COLOURBLIND or in need of glasses as was already established about Wiernick, to mistake one colour for another, while simultaneously being able to remember other more difficult things? Show me how this is possible, or even THAT it is possible and has happened. Give me some evidence to show this has happened before if you expect me to believe you. Try actually strengthening your inductive argument, Nessie like a proper scientist! If none of the gassings stories make sense, then gassing clearly didn't happen. Beatings and shootings, sure. NOBODY DENIES THAT EITHER. But everyone in world war two did that.

2. Was the German suffering from fatigue and the Polish Underground believed him without question? Or were the Poles who published these oral reports in paper form so stressed at their typewriters that they mixed up 30 with some other number in Polish that sounds nothing like 30? Or did they too simply write down the oral report without questioning the depth of the pits? :lol: Is that really the best you have? When a mistake occurs, an explanation is available for how the causal chain worked. You still have not given said required explanation. You made a claim, now justify it. Fulfill your onus probandi. Be a good little debater.

3. How, as Arad claimed, was it verified that the 'chambers' in Belzec had metal on the floors and walls? For what purpose? If the intenet is to gas them, why are metal floors AND WALLS needed by the nazis in gas chambers? Arad never explains and neither do you Nessie.

4. RE: Your statement. "Taking witness errors and intelligence report mistakes and then dismissing them as incredulous is throwing the baby out with the bath water." is yet ANOTHER STRAWMAN. Nobody holds to that argument. If none of the gassings stories make sense, then gassing clearly didn't happen. Beatings and shootings, sure. NOBODY DENIES THAT EITHER. But everyone in world war two did that.

Now the key phrase is Witness errors. How can an eyewitness make an error? Explain to me the Wiernick thing in #1 as an example please. And then answer the rest of my questions. STOP DODGING. You can't call it a mistake or an error WITHOUT EXPLAINING HOW IT TOOK PLACE. Oh yeah, wait a minute. Let me back up. You said, trauma and stress, but as I showed here already you are confusing apples and oranges.
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?p=67469#p67469
Werd wrote:It wasn't a lie. It was an honest mistake due to trauma and fatigue.

Okay, what was the real thing, they mistook this non-real thing for?

I don't have to answer since we already admit it was false.

But to know it is false is to be able to seperate truth from falsity. So what was it that was true that they based this mistake on? What was the source of this misinterpretation?

Trauma and fatigue.

I'm asking about the source thing itself, not the mental process of the human interpreting the source thing. Don't confuse the two. You said 'trauma and fatigue' already but this doesn't answer the most basic question...

FALLACY! FALLACY!



And on and on ad Nessieum. :mrgreen:


You can't claim to want to discuss the holocaust without wanting to discuss witness testimonies. All of it is open to discussion, Nessie. Your special pleading is a type of fallacy, as well as your strawman illustrated earlier.


The fallacy here continues to be red herring as you keep introducing another topic. It is not special pleading to want to stay on topic. As for ad nauseum, you are doing that by continually bringing up Wiernik as a witness in a thread about fallacies. Your barrage of off topic questions are another fallacy with the delightful title of gish gallop.
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:19 pm

Reply to Atigun. I will be amazed if this gets passed moderation.

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... =30#p67463

Atigun wrote:I don't think that we can expect any more replies from Nessie. I was curious if Nessie was simply taking a break so went to the RODOH site to see if he had any activity there. Indeed he does. There's a link to "Skeptic" where he is pouring out a tale of woe to a more congenial audience. Hannover is the chief bugaboo of course, but you and I were given honorable mention.


I have not taken a break, I am using the Skeptic forum to show all my posts and how I dodge and run from nothing. It is the moderation here that makes it appear I do.
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:09 pm

Reply to a Hannover challenge here

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... =30#p67475

which I have put into a relevant thread here

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7157

Hannover's challenge about witnesses in a thread about witnesses

The use of logical fallacies

Hannover - I challenge Nessie to give us statements by / from 'witnesses and intelligence reports' which he feels are factual. Be specific and precise as to what is said, what is claimed. You will be asked to prove the content. No dodging at this forum.

Yankel Wiernik. http://www.zchor.org/treblink/wiernik.htm

"This was the period when the Germans talked a lot about Katyn1) , which they used for anti-Soviet propaganda purposes. One day, by accident, we got hold of a newspaper from which we learned about that mass killing. It was probably these reports that made Himmler decide to visit Treblinka personally and to give orders that henceforth all the corpses of inmates should be cremated. There were plenty of corpses to cremate-there was no one who could have been blamed for the Treblinka killings except the Germans who, for the time being, were the masters of the land which they had wrested from us [Poles] by brute force. They did not want any evidence of the mass murders left.
At any rate, the cremations were promptly begun. The corpses of men, women, children and old people were exhumed from the mass graves. Whenever such a grave was opened, a terrible stench rose from them, because the bodies were already in an advanced stage of decomposition."

That is corroborated by Goebbels recognising how Katyn was being used against the Nazis and so Nazi mass graves would present problems to them

"When, in September 1943, Goebbels was informed that the German army had to withdraw from the Katyn area, he wrote a prediction in his diary. His entry for 29 September 1943 reads: "Unfortunately we have had to give up Katyn. The Bolsheviks undoubtedly will soon 'find' that we shot 12,000 Polish officers. That episode is one that is going to cause us quite a little trouble in the future. The Soviets are undoubtedly going to make it their business to discover as many mass graves as possible and then blame it on us". - Wiki Katyn Massacre

It is further corroborated by the digs at TII by the Lukaszkiewicz and Caroline Sturdy Colls teams which found an mix of bone, ash and sand and no sign of mass graves as originally described.

Abraham Krzepicki http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... mbers.html

"The floor was covered with orange terra cotta tiles."

Corroborated by the find of such tiles by the C S-C team.


Hannover - Also, I challenge Nessie to tell us which 'few witnesses and intelligence reports' it is that Revisionists 'concentrate on'. Be specific and precise as to what it is that Revisionists say about these. No dodging at this forum.

Irene Zisblatt, 193 mentions in a search of the forum http://forum.codoh.com/search.php?keywords=zisblatt She is referenced by loads of different members of the forum and despite no academic recognising her as a source, she is paraded constantly. Elie Weisel is referenced 80 times. They are referenced as "liars".

The Polish intelligence reports on gassing at the camps are mentioned 218 times and are claimed to be "Holocaust" atrocity propaganda/disinformation", "Liars" and "were engaged in atrocity lies".
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:12 pm

Reply to hermod

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... =30#p67477

hermod wrote:
Nessie. wrote:Werd, hermod, borjastick your desire to discuss that issue about witnesses is a red herring fallacy.


And define any inconvenient counter-argument as a fallacy is a childish behavior.

You look like a group of children playing Harry Potter with the leader telling his comrades which magic spells and supernatural powers are allowed and which ones are forbidden. :lol:

...


Keep using logical fallacies if you want to. Just expect to for them to be pointed out to you and understand their use weakens if not destroys your argument.
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:16 pm

Reply to Bob

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... =30#p67483

Bob wrote:I would say the topic should be concentrated on the use of logical fallacies as per opening comment, not on witnesses, reports etc. unless they are directly connected with the topic of this thread.

Hence Nessie should answer this post in the first place as he still did not provide requested examples leaving aside dodging of other points:

Moderator wrote:If you are able, please give our readers specific examples of these as used by Revisionists when discussing the various issues within the 'holocaust' debate. As it stands now you are just stating that fallacies generally exist ... which no one argues.


I have answered, the answers have not been posted. Hence I am now recording all replies on the Skeptic Forum.
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:24 pm

Reply to Hektor on use of fallacies

Hektor wrote:
Bob wrote:I would say the topic should be concentrated on the use of logical fallacies as per opening comment, not on witnesses, reports etc. unless they are directly connected with the topic of this thread.
...

Logical fallacies made by those that engage in the Holocaust debate hence Exterminationists and Revisionists. That could perhaps also highlight some arguments Revisionists should not use.


Exactly and logical fallacies used by exterminationists weaken or destroy their arguments as well.

Note posted unedited
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:45 pm

General reply here

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7157

Preview: Re: The Witness Conspiracy.
Whatever you feel about the Polish and Staffordshire Uni digs at TII, there is no denying they found human remains in various states of decomposition, human bones from whole to pieces and ash.

Image

Then other finds have been tiles and bricks which matched what witnesses said the original chamber was made out of.

Image

Image

These are remains not buried with any kind of respect or in marked graves. They are mixed in with the sand and as C S-C states in a BBC article they appear on top of the ground especially after it has rained. They also found pieces of bone which were charred.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16657363

The Staffordshire Uni gpr survey also found various pits under the ground. They also found sand containing a fossil that is on top of remains, which shows it came later as the site was covered up.

Image

So unless your debunk is someone nipped in one night, buried that lot and more and then the archaeologists came back and dug it back up, what they found corroborates the witnesses.

Note - reply posted but in a new thread created by a moderator.
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:58 pm

Reply to Borjastic on witness conspiracy

borjastick wrote:Nessie said this:

Denier/revisionists need to evidence why they are right to dismiss so many thousands of witnesses as lying or mistaken when we know already witnesses get it wrong at times, but right on many occasions.


It seems to that many of the 'thousands of witnesses' he refers to actually don't bear witness to much more than being sent to camps where not a lot happened or was actually seen directly to have happened by the witness them self. Thus their witness value is slim. The witnesses I am concerned with are those who claim they saw mass shootings, gassings, or are absolutely certain the murder of six million jews happened.

It is these witness statements that are spurious precisely because they have not been proven, and because the weight attached to these statements is disproportionate. Thus the expectation of belief is high and yet without back up of genuine evidence of these claims.


What proof would you accept? How is the weight attached to witnesses disproportionate?

borjastick wrote:When it comes down to it there are nothing like hundreds let alone thousands of witness statements that are bizarre but the mad ones seem to have control of the message. What I ask is are these statements self generated or part of a holocaust marketing project?

The bottom line is the evidence isn't available to prove the claims and yet we are supposedly not allowed to ask for it.


Witnesses include the thousands who were in selections, saw relatives, neighbours and friends marched off to where there were gas chambers and despite extensive searching have never seen them again.

Then finding those who doubt the existence of gas chambers like Rassinier to be truthful, but he was never at a camp where there was a gas chamber. So how is he truthful? Is it just because he doubts the existence of gas chambers?

You have not evidenced a mass witness conspiracy to any sort of satisfactory state, yet you believe it and dismiss the much better evidenced narrative of the Holocaust from the academics.

Note - posted unedited
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:13 pm

Reply to Hannover

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7157#p67492

Hannover wrote:Nessie starts off shabbily when he doesn't tell the whole truth by saying:
Hannover's challenge about witnesses in a thread about witnesses
In fact what I said in that thread was clearly on topic.
... Nessie made statements about alleged selective use of "witnesses, reports", aka: "cherry picking", a previously mentioned fallacy in this thread. 'Fallacies' are the topic of this thread.
Anyway, this is it? This is the best he can do? Nessie comes up with just a few easily debunked examples. Telling,

Yankel Wiernik? This is great. Nessie doesn't tell you all about liar Wiernik, but I will. Here's what Wiernik really said:
- 1200 people fit into a 7 X 7m gas chamber
- bodies of women were used for kindling
- bodies burned on their own once lit
- that 900,000 Jews were gassed..buried..exhumed..cremated & all traces disappeared
- a Russian diesel tank engine was used for gassings.
- Wiernik also claimed he saw a naked Jewish girl leap over a three-meter (9 ft.) high barbed wire fence, wrench the rifle out of the hands of a pursuing guard, shoot two other guards before she was overpowered.
Lot's more from liar Yankel Wiernik who Nessie thinks is factual:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33

And you just have to laugh at the link that Nessie cites: http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... mbers.html
We only see alleged 'translations' written by who knows who to mean whatever they wished and not a single authentic German document or verbatim court transcript to be found. Typical of racist Jewish supremacists sleight-of-hand tactics that would be laughed out of a legit court of law.

Nessie thinks that the Sturdy-Colls team study is reliable. This is old news at this forum as Sturdy-Colls' Travesty at Treblinka has been demolished repeatedly at this forum.
for starters see:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8579
and:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8744
and:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8587
and the terra cotta tiles debunked here:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8437

Nessie mentions the take down of Zisblatt and Wiesel while ignoring the endless other liars that have been debunked at this forum. Nessie fails to mention the fact that both Zisblatt and Wiesel have been praised by the 'holocaust' Industry. Apparently Nessie accepts the fact that Wiesel belongs in the long list of liars alongside Zisblatt. That's good to know.

Also notice that Nessie dodges the real science found in such threads such as:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4111
And we know why.

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. Truth needs no protection from scrutiny. The tide is turning.

- Hannover


I have answered your challenges and given an examples of a statements by a witness which I feels is factual and the evidence which backs him up. You then ignore that and go on about what he says which I have not used because naked women leaping 9 ft fences are highly unlikely to be factual and I have nothing to corroborate that. If you think there is a better translation of Wiernik's book, please link me to it. What ever supposed debunking of C S-C excavations you think there is, what Wiernik describes re digging bodies back up out of mass graves due to Katyn and then cremating and re interring the remains is backed up by the state of TII now.

I have then shown from simple searches just how much the forum concentrates on and refers to the likes of Zisblatt and Wiesel and dismisses The Polish underground reports as lies.

How am I dodging a thread about cyanide at Auschwitz when it is not part of this topic?
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:53 pm

Reply to borjastick


Preview: Re: The Witness Conspiracy.

borjastick wrote:

Witnesses include the thousands who were in selections, saw relatives, neighbours and friends marched off to where there were gas chambers and despite extensive searching have never seen them again.



The claims that you claim are at best shaky. You say above 'where the gas chambers were'. Yet none has been proven to be there at all. Witnesses are plentiful that they went into what they thought was a gas chamber and yet water came out of the shower heads.

Those who claim to have never seen their relatives again make the amazing leap of thought that if they didn't see them again they must have been gassed! Yet I remember seeing a film documentary with a witness statement that she and her sister were separated upon arrival at Auschwitz. She said they were all showered (with water) then had their hair chopped off and given a uniform. A short time later hundreds of these women were lined up in the yard whereupon she couldn't have recognised her sister under any circumstances. They all looked the same and completely different from an hour earlier when they had arrived.

The claimed gas chambers have never been found to be anything more than morgues and converted air raid shelters.



Do you not think it is odd that so many went for a supposed wash at TII and have never, ever, despite lots of work by the Red Cross and other organisations who specialise in helping people to find relatives, been seen again?

Can you give me any figures for the numbers re-united as you claim?

borjastick wrote:As far as the disproportionate weight afforded to the witness statements goes it is evidenced by the way their filmed and written statements are easily available and how these statements are accepted as proof of the six million dead yet they don't say anything of the sort. The problem is the casual observer/newcomer to the holocaust story buys into this discourse about the suffering of being transported to a labour camp, which they survived, or how they had to leave Germany pre war, or never saw relatives again even though they had a fairly normal war experience. How often do we come up against people who have bought into the six million-gas chamber story simply because they saw the film of Buchenwald or Belsen where we know there were NO gas chambers. Death was caused by typhus and other privations of war.

The stories are plentiful but the hard evidence simply doesn't back them up.

The proof we all want is hard evidence and not weepy emotional nonsense from flaky survivors. Thus far this is very much lacking and when Rudolf and Leuchter produce scientific proof that the claimed gas chambers couldn't possibly have been used as such we get the pathetic sight of the holocaust management team slagging off their credentials and moaning that they lack academic credibility.



Yes myths perpetuate, but not in the academic work. Leuchter's credentials are suspect, Rudolph I do say has not been fairly treated. Academics are a bitching bunch and denial laws are wrong.
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:08 pm

Reply to Bob


Preview: Re: The Witness Conspiracy.

Bob wrote:

Nessie wrote:Witnesses include the thousands who were in selections, saw relatives, neighbours and friends marched off to where there were gas chambers and despite extensive searching have never seen them again.



Evidence an example when somebody allegedly exhaustively searched to find people who were seen to march off " where there were gas chambers" (of course silly example of "evidence"). As is known, people were/are told such peoples were gassed, hence I am very curious to see your alleged case in which somebody exhaustively searched to find someone claimed to be gassed.



I cannot give you a name, I can show you the organisations that still exists to help tracing

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/js ... acing.html

There are many places, particularly in Poland where no Jews have returned to where they lived, such as

http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/grajewo/gra019.html

"The pre-war settlement of more than three and a half million Jews in Poland is no more. The great majority of towns and villages where Jews had lived for centuries were now “Judenrein” [“clean of Jews”]. Our hometown Grayeve shared that same bitter fate."

Have you got figures for how many went home or found relatives?

Bob wrote:

Nessie wrote:Then finding those who doubt the existence of gas chambers like Rassinier to be truthful, but he was never at a camp where there was a gas chamber. So how is he truthful? Is it just because he doubts the existence of gas chambers?



Wrong, it was claimed in the past that Buchenwald had gas chambers (hence Nessie does not find these testimonies credible, good). Despite being a prisoner in Germans camps (including Buchenwald), he was against such accusations, that makes him truthful as he did not misuse his fate for purpose of revenge which would have been not justifiable, but at least understandable. Use logic next time.



But it did not have a gas chamber, so I am right. That he decided not to believe in the existence of gas chambers does not mean there were none. Argument from ignorance and incredulity.

Bob wrote:

Nessie wrote:You have not evidenced a mass witness conspiracy to any sort of satisfactory state, yet you believe it and dismiss the much better evidenced narrative of the Holocaust from the academics.



Mass witness conspiracy? Just a propaganda from small number of people which turned others to believe there was an extermination and ordinary things they experienced had some connection with this story resulting in so called "thousands of witnesses" leaving aside the power of hearsay and historical background - it was a war, chaos, less chance to verify things etc. Do not make things complicated when they are not complicated at all.

How complicated exactly was a "mass conspiracy" which made probably millions of people believe that The Great Wall of China is the only man-made object visible from space? If you are at least average intelligent, is not too hard to understand how such myths, urban legends etc. can be easily created and how they find its way to the minds of people who believe them.

much better evidenced narrative of the Holocaust from the academics



Another typical case of "much better evidence" we are left in dark about, just usual vague assertion. The only thing we can derive form this statement is Nessie´s admission, that there is evidenced narrative against holocaust, albeit not as good.

From the academics? Just a case of fallacy of appeal to authority leaving aside that there are of course academics among revisionists.



An urban myth sprang up about the Great Wall of China. That had no effect on its reality as it was not just academics who could study it to see it was real. The same is the case for the Holocaust with its myths. It is a non sequitur to then say the actual Holocaust is a myth.
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:44 pm

Reply to Henry

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... =15#p67521

Henry. wrote:
Nessie. wrote:That is corroborated by Goebbels recognising how Katyn was being used against the Nazis and so Nazi mass graves would present problems to them

"When, in September 1943, Goebbels was informed that the German army had to withdraw from the Katyn area, he wrote a prediction in his diary. His entry for 29 September 1943 reads: "Unfortunately we have had to give up Katyn. The Bolsheviks undoubtedly will soon 'find' that we shot 12,000 Polish officers. That episode is one that is going to cause us quite a little trouble in the future. The Soviets are undoubtedly going to make it their business to discover as many mass graves as possible and then blame it on us". - Wiki Katyn Massacre

It is further corroborated by the digs at TII by the Lukaszkiewicz and Caroline Sturdy Colls teams which found an mix of bone, ash and sand and no sign of mass graves as originally described. ........

No, No, No, Nessie!!!

That's not what Goebbels wrote or intended his entry to mean. You (or some hasbarat) have removed the definite article [hilite]"the"[/hilite] and changed the crucial pronoun [hilite]"them"[/hilite] to [hilite]"it"[/hilite] so to create the meaning that you give to it.

Taken from my copy of Goebbels' Diaries (p. 395) here is the original entry with the definite article, proper quotation marks, and correct pronoun restored and highlighted.

Goebbels wrote....
Unfortunately we have had to give up Katyn. The Bolsheviks undoubtedly [hilite]will soon "find" that we shot the 12,000 Polish officers.[/hilite] That episode is one that is going to cause us quite a little trouble in the future. The Soviets are undoubtedly going to make it their business to discover as many mass graves as possible [hilite]and then blame them on us[/hilite]


Nessie's version...
Unfortunately we have had to give up Katyn. The Bolsheviks undoubtedly [hilite]will soon 'find' that we shot 12,000 Polish officers.[/hilite] That episode is one that is going to cause us quite a little trouble in the future. The Soviets are undoubtedly going to make it their business to discover as many mass graves as possible [hilite]and then blame it on us[/hilite]

As we see Nessie's post is a hoax within the Hoax...


What is the difference in meaning between the translations? They read the same to me that Goebbels is concerned that the Soviets will find mass graves and blame the Nazis for them.

NOTE - posted unedited
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:55 pm

Reply to Bob

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8829#p67503


Preview: Re: Nessie's case for Sturdy Colls & Treblinka

Bob wrote:Human remains found - known old photo. Irrelevant, what matters is not qualitative (remains found) but quantitative (how much remains) factor. AFAIK nobody disputes some people may died there since hundreds of thousands of people were sent there. An issue similar to issue: "cyanide in the walls found."



Have you any evidence or estimates as to how many died there?

Bob wrote:Tiles - already said on Rodoh, ordinary tiles, I myself have such in my bathroom, they are quite typical, nothing exceptional. To which building they belonged if they were found there? There is no evidence, but they may be from shower installation witnesses used as an inspiration for their propaganda story about gas chambers which is what witnesses were doing - criminalizing real existing things for propaganda purposes. In such case is hence a necessary condition that tiles match description of some witness as is necessary condition that witness from Auschwitz correctly described door of the oven as made of metal. Unfortunately, such match has no relevance with extermination story and Nessie´s case.

Brick - even more silly than the tiles, see above.



Witnesses speak to such tiles and bricks being used to build the old gas chambers. In the same area they are then found in a dig. Why cover a shower up with tons of sand?

Bob wrote:Stuff and conclusions of the similar quality as: "we have found a comb, extermination at Treblinka happened." A nonsense often not expressed explicitly, but carefully alluded to by exterminationists.



Please evidence an exterminationist who claims a comb means TII was a death camp.
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:09 pm

Reply to borjastick

borjastick wrote:Top photo looks like some animal bones mixed up with others that could be anything, including human. More info on this picture please Nessie.

I have always found it very odd that if Ms Sturdy-Colls was so sure she had found the remains of the gas chamber at Treblinka why did she stop digging?

'Ooh look I found a winning lotto ticket in the street but I think I'll just keep it and not cash it in'.


The photo is from the Polish survey and that one is showing a crater where the gold rush meant locals were blowing up the ground to look for valuables. There are others which corroborate the conditions found at TII back then.

C S-C is limited by time, money and permissions as to how much she can dig. If the gas chamber was to become a tourist attraction then I could see why it would be excavated in its entirety so people can look at. That is not what her dig was for. it was to find it and the results corroborate the witness description.
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:21 pm

Reply to Hannover

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8829#p67507


Preview: Re: Nessie's case for Sturdy Colls & Treblinka

Hannover wrote:The top photo is from:
http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/14588
But the storyline says that the Germans destroyed Treblinka to hide the evidence, yet they supposedly left bones in plain view. Right.



I have seen that photo used in various sources on TII. The storyline is that the Nazis covered up TII as best they could and then Polish locals in the gold rush, Soviets digging and then the Polish dig uncovered bones. Then the Staffordshire Uni dig found bits of bone, including charred bones on the surface. The forensic evidence fits the narrative of a cover up at the site.


Hannover wrote:Also shown is this excavator photo from Samuel Willenberg's 'Surviving Treblinka'.
Image

In Willenberg's book it is captioned:

crane lifting corpses destined for cremation

Hilarious!

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. Truth needs no protection from scrutiny. The tide is turning.

- Hannover
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:41 pm

Reply to Hannover

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8829#p67511

Hannover wrote:A few more nuggets:

- From the site where Nessie got his unverified bones photo: http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/14588 we read of Sturdy-Colls sham investigation:
This is the first coordinated scientific attempt to locate graves at Treblinka. Led by forensic archaeologist Caroline Sturdy Colls, the research team used ground-penetrating radar and aerial and satellite imagery to look for burial sites without breaking ground, out of respect for Jewish Halacha law which forbids disturbing burial sites.
Absolutely wrong, see: http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6817


True, the law does not expressly forbid disturbing burial sites. To do more excavations would need permission under Sec 172 of the Israeli Penal Law and getting the permission you would like, a massive excavation of the site, is unlikely.

Hannover wrote:- From Sturdy-Colls own mouth, as quoted in this excellent review of her sham effort: 'Treblinka – The Forensic Examination Fails' http://www.westernspring.co.uk/treblink ... ion-fails/
This whole landscape is part of Treblinka’s killing machine essentially, this is the area where Nazis came to hide their crimes that they perpetrated.
Contradiction. Again, why would the Germans leave human bones in plain view scattered on the surface if they diligently tried 'to hide their crimes? She simply can't keep the lies straight.


Please evidence the Germans left human bones scattered on the site.

Hannover wrote:- It's also interesting to note that the total number of alleged, but never tested, human bones do not even comprise enough to make a single skeleton. Recall that it's claimed that ca. 900,000 Jews were murdered in buried at Treblinka. That's ten times the number of a jam packed Los Angeles Coliseum, shown here.
Image

- After finding highly questionable, unverified, no-DNA-tests bones, Colls said:
We have enough to prove that this is a mass grave!
and then stopped her examination. Not one human skeleton and a Rabbi breathing down her back and she claims to have found a "mass grave". Absolute fraud.


Forensic archaeologist trained to identify remains is not good enough for you. But that does not mean it is not evidence they are human bones. Again, samples are taken and they confirm the narrative. A massive excavation is out of the question as all it serves it to end denier/revisionist demands and sorry, that is not needed.

Hannover wrote:- Sturdy-Colls makes a complete fool of herself as the very radar imaging (LIDAR) shes uses proves that the alleged enormous pits holding ca. 900,000 Jews do not exist.


It would odd finding such pits as the narrative is they were dug up to get at the remains which were then cremated and either reburied in smaller pits, which were found or scattered.

Please evidence how deep LIDAR goes and what it showed of TII?

Hannover wrote:- And then, as shown in Eric Hunt's video debunking of Sturdy-Colls hoax at Treblinka we see that Jews themselves actually deposited cremated remains of those that died natural deaths outside of Treblinka within Treblinka. Wow!

for much more see:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8579
and:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8744
and:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8587
and the 'terra cotta tiles' debunked here:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8437

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. Truth needs no protection from scrutiny. The tide is turning.

- Hannover


There are numerous non sequiturs in the supposed debunking, which is clearly a case of a study to try and prove what is wanted, not a study to see where the evidence takes us.
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:23 pm

Question posted about TII

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8437

"Are there any eye witnesses who showered at TII? There must be a good few since according to denier/revisionists there are 100s of 1000s of people who were transited through the camp."

NOTE - posted unedited
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:30 pm

Reply to Don Worth

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8829#p67513

Don Worth wrote:I've studied Sobibor way more than Treblinka, but this is just sooo easy.

Nessie:

Whatever you feel about the Polish and Staffordshire Uni digs at TII, there is no denying they found human remains in various states of decomposition, human bones from whole to pieces and ash.


Just watch me "deny" it Nessie.

It has never been proven that the Poles found human remains "in various states of decomposition" at TII.

If you think I'm wrong Nessie, prove me wrong right here on this forum in this thread.

It has never been proven that Colls found human remains "in various states of decomposition" at TII.

If you think I'm wrong Nessie, prove me wrong right here on this forum in this thread.

It has never been proven that the Poles found an iota of human ash at TII. (I'm not talking about ground human bones / cremains - I'm talking about actual human ash resulting from the burning of human flesh.)

If you think I'm wrong Nessie, prove me wrong right here on this forum in this thread.

It has never been proven that Colls found an iota of human ash at TII. (I'm not talking about ground human bones / cremains - I'm talking about actual human ash resulting from the burning of human flesh.)

If you think I'm wrong Nessie, prove me wrong right here on this forum in this thread.

It has never been proven that the Poles found even an iota of human cremains at TII.

If you think I'm wrong Nessie, prove me wrong right here on this forum in this thread.

It has never been proven that Colls found even an iota of human cremains at TII. (Other than in the area in which it is known that Jews have deposited cremains in recent years.)

If you think I'm wrong Nessie, prove me wrong right here on this forum in this thread.

It has never been proven that the photo of bones you allege was taken at TII was actually taken at TII or that the pit in the photo exists at TII.

If you think I'm wrong Nessie, prove me wrong right here on this forum in this thread.

There's no denying that Nessie will fail to provide any of the 7 proofs that I just asked for.


What would constitute proof for you that the Polish and Staffordshire Uni digs did find human remains at TII? Same for the photos.
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:34 pm

Reply to hermod

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8829#p67525

hermod wrote:
The investigation begins with aerial photography with special imaging that enables an image of the land surface to be generated with all trees and vegetation removed. The resultant image showed a number of depressions in an area ten minutes walk south of Treblinka 1 and Caroline decided to dig two exploratory ‘trenches’ at a couple of these sites.

http://www.westernspring.co.uk/treblink ... ion-fails/


Sturdy Colls' choice is very telling in itself. High-tech imaging provided her a clear picture of the whole area. But did Miss Sturdy Colls decide to open the alleged mass graves at Treblinka 2, where 900,000 Jews had supposedly been murdered, buried, dug out, cremated, dumped into the same pits and then murdered a second time by evil deniers doubting their death? No, she didn't! She decided to use her unique digging license to investigate a few depressions near Treblinka 1. Incredible! Sturdy Colls acted like a child allowed to open his christmas presents and saying "No, thank you. I'm gonna do my homeworks first.". :shock:


Your interest lies in TII. C S-C clearly states in the documentary that she is as interested in TI as TII and what went on there.
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:43 pm

Reply to Henry

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... =15#p67529

Henry. wrote:
Nessie. wrote: What is the difference in meaning between the translations? They read the same to me that Goebbels is concerned that the Soviets will [hilite]find mass graves[/hilite] and blame the Nazis for them.

No in your original post you claimed that Goebbels was concerned that the Soviets would find [hilite]Nazi mass graves[/hilite]

See...
Nessie. wrote:That is corroborated by Goebbels recognising how Katyn was being used against the Nazis and so [hilite]Nazi mass graves[/hilite] would present problems to them

Your abuse of Goebbels' diary entry allowed you to spin a deceit but now it's been exposed you pretend you posted something different.

Are you looking to start up your magic roundabout again?

I won't be climbing aboard to waste countless hours going round in circles.


That is not the issue you are trying to make it out to be. Whether they are Nazi or Soviet mass graves, if the Soviets find them Goebbels knows the Nazis will get the blame. So the Nazis start to cover up their mass graves, as spoken to by witnesses at TII and corroborated by the forensic studies.
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:33 pm

Reply to Hannover

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... =15#p67537

Preview: Re: The Non-Lethal Shower Room of Treblinka vs. Colls' tiles

Hannover wrote:

Nessie. wrote:Are there any eye witnesses who showered at TII? There must be a good few since according to denier/revisionists there are 100s of 1000s of people who were transited through the camp.

I believe Eric Hunt's research found some such statements about showers as well as tons of statements by Jews that they were transited through Treblinka, see: The Jewish Gas Chamber Hoax, By Eric Hunt
http://codoh.com/library/document/3252/

As of 2014, Steven Spielberg's "Survivors of the Shoah Visual History Foundation" has recorded nearly 52,000 interviews in 56 countries and in 32 languages with so-called "Holocaust survivors." The present documentary uses some of them to prove that the orthodox tale about the alleged extermination camp at Treblinka is untenable. It is a Revisionist documentary presenting the latest evidence debunking the greatest hoax in human history: “The Holocaust” – that is to say, the fraudulent claim that six million Jews were murdered by Germans, mostly in “Gas Chambers disguised as Shower Rooms.” Never before seen evidence helps prove that Treblinka was a transit camp, far from the “Pure Extermination Camp” myth currently promoted by the Holocaust religion. For the first time ever, listen to Jews themselves who were transited through Treblinka describe the process of being transferred from Treblinka to other camps, along with hundreds and thousands of other men women and children. Documentation is presented which affirms that Treblinka was no top secret “pure extermination center,” but a simple transit camp where some Jews even took real showers in order to keep them alive. The absurdity of diesel gassings, non-existent mass graves, forced confessions, and more are covered in The Jewish Gas Chamber Hoax, a new documentary from the filmmaker of The Last Days of the Big Lie.



The people interviewed survived TII by being selected on arrival, not entering TII and getting back onto the trains (or never having left them) before going on other places, Majdanek mainly. Only one claims she actually entered and went to the chambers, but she did not have a shower there.

Hannover wrote:One has to ask why would Jews routinely make mundane statements to interviewers, courts, etc. about getting a shower? That wouldn't get them much publicity and cash. Using that faulty, but typical, 'holocaust' logic means that if someone didn't say anything about latrines then they didn't exist. Absurd really.



Showers are referred to by many witnesses at various camps. Please produce a witness who said they had a shower at TII in what are commonly referred to as the gas chambers or admit there are no witnesses, out of your claimed 100s of 1000s of survivors.

Your supposed logic about not referring to something means it did not exist is yours alone and is a strawman. Whether people showered or were gassed is key to the Holocaust narrative, going to the toilet is not.

Hannover wrote:And then, is Nessie saying there was no showers at Treblinka?

And then we cannot forget the 'proof' accepted at Nuremberg which stated that Jews were steamed to death at Treblinka. Yep, that's the 'holocaust' for ya'

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. Truth needs no protection from scrutiny. The tide is turning.

- Hannover



They may have been showers for the guards at TII but that is it. The intelligence that steam was used turned out on further investigation to be wrong. The steam was a gas and it was CO. Mistakes in intelligence reports, especially when they admit they are not sure how people are killed is not the issue you claim it to be.
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:40 pm

Reply to Thames Darwin

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... =15#p67535


Preview: Re: The Non-Lethal Shower Room of Treblinka vs. Colls' tiles

Thames Darwin wrote:

Nessie. wrote:Are there any eye witnesses who showered at TII? There must be a good few since according to denier/revisionists there are 100s of 1000s of people who were transited through the camp.



My God, man, haven't you been watching Mr. Hunt's films?



Yes, so please name a person who said there were transited through the TII camp as in arrived, entered inside the fence, had their hair cut, clothes taken, property taken, showered in what is commonly referred to the gas chambers, medicalled and then put back on a train with out without property returned and taken to another camp.
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:25 am

Nessie wrote:Yes, so please name a person who said there were transited through the TII camp as in arrived, entered inside the fence, had their hair cut, clothes taken, property taken, showered in what is commonly referred to the gas chambers, medicalled and then put back on a train with out without property returned and taken to another camp.


Be careful Nessie. Rosenberg did enter the living camp area of Treblinka, did have a shower and was transited to another camp, all in less than one day. The issues that Eric Hunt hid, concerning Rosenberg, are the late date this happened, (near the closing date of the camp), that Rosenberg was a specialist worker being sent to another camp and that this was in the living camp barracks for "living camp" slave workers and not the extermination area of Treblinka Extermination camp.

These are separate issues to Eric Hunt editing Rosenberg's eyewitness testimony to suggest Rosenberg was looking "Steam Chambers" at Treblinka.

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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Thu Aug 28, 2014 5:57 pm

So Rosenberg does not fit my question at all. I have checked CODOH and it is clear the majority of posts do not make it onto the forum.

CODOH's version of the truth needs protecting by censorship. It cannot stand on its own.
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:32 pm

Reply to Henry

Henry. wrote:
Nessie. wrote: What is the difference in meaning between the translations? They read the same to me that Goebbels is concerned that the Soviets will [hilite]find mass graves[/hilite] and blame the Nazis for them.

No in your original post you claimed that Goebbels was concerned that the Soviets would find [hilite]Nazi mass graves[/hilite]

See...
Nessie. wrote:That is corroborated by Goebbels recognising how Katyn was being used against the Nazis and so [hilite]Nazi mass graves[/hilite] would present problems to them

Your abuse of Goebbels' diary entry allowed you to spin a deceit but now it's been exposed you pretend you posted something different.

Are you looking to start up your magic roundabout again?

I won't be climbing aboard to waste countless hours going round in circles.


I asked you to explain the difference. All you have done is repeat what you said before.

NOTE -posted unedited
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:42 pm

Nessie wrote:So Rosenberg does not fit my question at all. I have checked CODOH and it is clear the majority of posts do not make it onto the forum.

CODOH's version of the truth needs protecting by censorship. It cannot stand on its own.

I'm not even sure that Heinz Rosenberg was taken to Treblinka.
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Nessie » Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:44 pm

Reply to hermod

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... =15#p67540

hermod wrote:
Hannover wrote:Using Nessie's faulty, but typical, 'holocaust' logic means that if someone didn't say anything about latrines then they didn't exist.


Nessie's logic is more that if somebody once said latrines were mills where Jewish skeletons were turned into fertilizer then they were fertilizer mills and if 2 people said that then it's time to build memorials where there were camp "latrines". :wink:

I wonder how Nessie deals with his parents having both testified to the existence of Santa Claus when he was a child. Is he still trying to see Santa on every Christmas night? Billions of testimonies through the world, what further evidence do all those Santa deniers need to believe? :twisted:


I am not trying to logically reason the Holocaust narrative. As you have just shown you can easily misuse logic to reason pretty much anything.

I am looking for corroborative evidence whereby independent sources back each other up, preferably eye witness and forensic. In the case of the Polish and Staffordshire Uni digs, they found bones, ash, partial human remains, tiles and bricks as described by eye witnesses. They also found them covered up with sand and no markings to show there had been a camp there or people were buried there. That further fits the narrative of the witnesses that there was a cover up. Further evidence comes with the situation the Nazis found themselves in. In retreat and knowing the Soviets had already blamed them for mass graves they did not do. It would not do to find any mass graves left by the Nazis, so destroy them as best as possible, hence non are to be found.
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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:45 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: I'm not even sure that Heinz Rosenberg was taken to Treblinka.


I transcribed Heinz Rosenberg's original unedited recording from the USHHM. Rosenberg was speaking in English ( removing translation errors )
http://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn509193

Rosenberg is talking about the 17th or 18th September 1943 which is just before closing the camp.


(Time = 75min.50sec)
"And we came to this camp, we had to run. there was a terrible sweet smell. We did not know what Treblinka was. we had no idea. And we saw prisoners pulling enormous loads laden with shoes and clothes. And we were put separate on one spot . Of the 200, some had died. I can't remember how may made it. 240 probably. There were couples and there were Dutch Jews and they told us "Where you from?" "From Minsk" They said this is a "Command to heaven camp" "What are you talking about?"
"You will find out, do you have anything valuable? You won't need it anymore" They were 100% sure we would be gassed too. So after a while we were standing there for about three hours, we were not permitted to go to the toilet. After three hours a SS delegation came and said "Are there any carpenters here?" Yes there were three carpenters. "Any locksmiths here?" "Any plumbers here?" "Any electricians?" Yes. "Get out, get out, get out". "I knew about this because I was in the steam room" Everybody went as gardeners. We never saw the gardeners again. But we were put on the side to a barracks and we had to undress. We did not have prison uniforms but old clothes with a mark. so we undressed"


(Time = 78min.36sec)
We then went into a room. we did not know what it was. We were given new clothes and wooden shoes. they then came in and said "you are going to be transferred to (Plaszow?) The Kapo said to us "You are the first group that came here and goes out of here alive" So we still did not know what Treblinka was. I had never heard of Treblinka before but we heard this man and he said "this is a death sector" We did not know what a death sector was. So that evening they put us back on a cattle car" We arrived the next morning.

I wrote "Plaszow" and a question mark, as I wasn't sure I heard the name Mr Rosenberg said correctly, so I wrote what I heard, rather than a destination I knew. You will may have more insight into the destination than I have.

Arad mentions Dutch Jews at Treblinka. I can't remember the context. ( I should look myself) However dating the Dutch Jews arrival may offer complimentary evidence concerning Mr Rosenberg's statement.

Tell me if you wish me to transcribe other parts of his testimony to allow discussion and I will do so.

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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:51 am

I win the booby prize. Scrmblggs found the full transcriptions of Rosenberg on the same website.

This means Mary and David can read exactly where Eric Hunt edited and faked the Rosenberg testimony in his propaganda video.

http://collections.ushmm.org/oh_finding ... trs_en.pdf

Eric Hunt / Gaschamberhoax wrote:Your transcript is not a transcript at all, people can listen to it and read the words you wrote which are not the same words that are said. his is the "road to heaven" that lead to the "gas chambers" - but really lead to steam rooms / shower rooms such as the one Rosenberg mentions.


Minsk
Q : You said you were working at this hospital and then became a German soldiers home. What did you do there?
A: I was in the steam room.
Q: You were in the steam room, you cleaned up?
A: No, no, we had to heat the place. But not with coal or oil but with Toff, what is toff, something that burns very fast, you know when the trees decompose it becomes like (sound effect) this is a tremendous building so you had to focus there. We were a twenty-four hour shift. They brought in wood too, but it was very hard work. We had two shifts, two men each, to heat the big place.


David? Mary? Why does Eric think Rosenberg is talking about a gas chamber at Treblinka?

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Re: Posting here my replies to CODOH

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:32 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Arad mentions Dutch Jews at Treblinka.

This is part of the problem: the transports from the Netherlands went to Sobibor. Arad doesn't mention Dutch Jews at any AR camp other than Sobibor. He has a number of references to the Dutch Jews at that camp, which, after all, was where Jules Schelvis was sent. According to Arad (page 148), 19 transports are known to have come from the Netherlands to Sobibor - taking at least 34,313 Jews to the camp.It was to Sobibor and Auschwitz that Dutch Jews were deported - not to Treblinka. Transports from the Netherlands did not go to Treblinka.

Matthew Ellard wrote:I can't remember the context. ( I should look myself) However dating the Dutch Jews arrival may offer complimentary evidence concerning Mr Rosenberg's statement.

I will look this up later but here's what I recall as clouding Rosenberg's case: Zabecki mentioned a transport from Minsk Litewski bypassing Treblinka for Chelm (near Sobibor), Sasha Pechersky's narrative of his deportation in mid-September from Minsk to Sobibor is very similar to Rosenberg's narrative, and the transports of Dutch Jews, who stuck out in Rosenberg's mind, went to Sobibor, not Treblinka.

Matthew Ellard wrote:Tell me if you wish me to transcribe other parts of his testimony to allow discussion and I will do so.

No thanks, have listened to it two or three times. Rosenberg is highly credible, even if - perhaps - the sign he saw as the train slowed at Treblinka, on its way to Sobibor, stuck in his mind. Possibly.
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