Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

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Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby gaschamberhoax » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:19 am

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2011/07/challenge-to-supporters-of-revisionist.html


I'm calling for Muehlenkamp to reissue this challenge using simplified language so I can buy a shiny new editing computer. I have not been involved with Revisionism for some time and it expired before I really looked into the issue in depth. I'm also calling on all exterminationists to put their money where their mouths are and add to this reward fund.

The language I call for is this -

I, Roberto Muehlenkamp, have at this moment a certain sum on a savings account, the existence of which I can prove and of which I am prepared to pay up to $ 4,000, $ 1,000 for each name, to the first Revisionist(s) who can provide, along with corresponding conclusive evidence, the names of up to 4 Jews who were transited through Chełmno, Bełżec, Sobibór or Treblinka (not necessarily one per camp, can be all four through one camp, two here and two there or any other combination) to the Nazi-occupied territories of the Soviet Union, i.e. the areas of what was then known as the Reichskommissariat Ostland, the Reichskommissariat Ukraine or the Soviet territories under German military administration, in the years 1942 or 1943.


By transited I mean that the person in question must have been taken to the respective camp, then shipped to a certain destination in the Nazi-occupied territories of the Soviet Union as defined above, e.g. to Minsk, Riga, Kovno or Kiev.



I want the language bathed and deloused and perhaps (but not necessarily) given a hot meal or drink there, this is hard to prove unless they recorded a Shoah testimony or wrote a book.

I can prove Jews were sent to Treblinka and then transited East e.g. to Minsk, Riga, Kovno or Kiev and I want the above colored language removed and the challenge simplified so I can win the challenge.

I'm also calling for the challenge money to be put in escrow to be given to me by the arbiter upon accepting my proof.

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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby Cerdic » Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:07 am

What proof do you have that Jews were transited through AR and sent to the east? You promised that it will be shown but none of it seems to be forthcoming.

3 of the 4 sites of alleged resettlement you mentioned were (see earlier threads here and at RODOH) destinations of deportations from the Reich and from Lodz. Do you actually have proof these Jews transited through AR?
„(...) Wenn wir irgendetwas beim Nationalsozialismus anerkennen, dann ist es die Anerkennung, daß ihm zum ersten Mal in der deutschen Politik die restlose Mobilisierung der menschlichen Dummheit gelungen ist.“ Kurt Schumacher 23. Februar 1932

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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:49 am

Cerdic wrote:What proof do you have that Jews were transited through AR and sent to the east? You promised that it will be shown but none of it seems to be forthcoming.

3 of the 4 sites of alleged resettlement you mentioned were (see earlier threads here and at RODOH) destinations of deportations from the Reich and from Lodz. Do you actually have proof these Jews transited through AR?

And his own documentation shows his estimate of the numbers involved to be inflated by over 7,000!
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby Balmoral » Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:19 am

and I want the above colored language removed and the challenge simplified so I can win the challenge
.


And I want the Megamillions people to change the rules so I can win. :roll:

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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:36 am

First, Maryzilla complains about supposed moving of goalposts - while moving the "resettled to the East" goalpost to try salvaging at least something from Hunt's debacle.

Now Hunt wants to win.

Clown show.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby nickterry » Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:59 pm

To my knowledge, the challenge still stands and has never expired. It is still linked on the top right corner of HC blog. Our friend Rhymes With seems to have misunderstood the rules, which give a period of 365 days from the announcement in writing that someone has taken up the challenge formally for the challenger to prove their case.

The challenge asks for a name of a deportee who went via B, C, S or T to the Nazi-occupied Soviet territories. Roberto Muehlenkamp is very specific on this; no vague wartime reports which could be interpreted (creatively) to imply resettlement would qualify, there must be a name and it must be the Nazi-occupied Soviet territories. The details about whether the deportee was bathed, deloused or fed are likely less important than providing evidence that the deportee did indeed 'transit' these camps to the Nazi-occupied Soviet territories. Roberto Muehlenkamp said quite clearly that the wording can be changed as necessary; but I am certain he will not budge on the requirement for a name or the requirement for the end destination being the Nazi-occupied Soviet territories. (This would also imply that the deportee was taken there by the Nazis and did not arrive there after escaping from a transport or from one of the camps in question.)

There would really be no other way to provide evidence other than to locate a clear testimony to this effect from a named individual. A Yad Vashem 'page of testimony' about a dead relative would not I think count as this would be hearsay. The only other possibility would be documentary evidence from a 1940s source, either wartime or immediate postwar such as ITS records, spelling out a deportee's itinerary in a clear fashion, giving an individual name or several individual names.

Our would-be challenger should contact Roberto Muehlenkamp directly via the HC blog; his Blogger profile gives an email address: https://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924
While Roberto has posted on SSF he does not check in that often, and it's rather unreasonable to expect third parties to act as intermediaries - contact Roberto directly.

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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby Roberto Muehlenkamp » Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:21 pm

Challenge text under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.pt/2011/07/challenge-to-supporters-of-revisionist.html now reads as requested by Eric. I have just added the precision "from that camp":

By transited I mean that the person in question must have been taken to the respective camp, then shipped from that camp to a certain destination in the Nazi-occupied territories of the Soviet Union as defined above, e.g. to Minsk, Riga, Kovno or Kiev.


I agree that particulars of the person's experience at the respective camp are secondary. What matters is that the person was taken by the Nazis to one of the four camps known to history as extermination camps and then taken by the Nazis from that camp to a final destination in the Reichskommissariat Ostland, the Reichskommissariat Ukraine or the Soviet territories under German military administration, in the years 1942 or 1943.

Now, as to the challenge being "simplified", what simplifications exactly does Eric have in mind? Please be specific.
Last edited by Roberto Muehlenkamp on Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby Cerdic » Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:30 pm

A comment by "Eric" on the blog post (presumably Mr Hunt himself) from 2011 reads:

Not all revisionists believe those who went through the transit camps were "transited" to the "Russian East" , myself included. I believe the Russian East "final solution" was a plan that never materialized due to the Germans losing the war on the Russian front.


Can gaschamberhoax please explain what did, then, infact happen to the 1.5 million+ Jews who were sent to the AR camps? If they were not transited to the east, what happened to them?
„(...) Wenn wir irgendetwas beim Nationalsozialismus anerkennen, dann ist es die Anerkennung, daß ihm zum ersten Mal in der deutschen Politik die restlose Mobilisierung der menschlichen Dummheit gelungen ist.“ Kurt Schumacher 23. Februar 1932

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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby Balmoral » Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:21 pm

Let's see if I understand this correctly. Hunt gets Roberto to remove the secondary challenge of showers and delousing because Hunt finds that too difficult to prove after having spent a considerable amount of time over the last week "proving" to his own self-satisfaction that the gas chamber in Treblinka was, in fact, a shower? :shock:

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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby gaschamberhoax » Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:00 pm

The language I want is that -

Your challenge reward fund will pay $ 1,000 for each name, to whoever can provide, along with corresponding evidence, the names of up to 4 Jews who are currently claimed by Yad Vashem, or the US Holocaust Memorial Museum to have been sent on transports which were killed at either Chełmno, Bełżec, Sobibór or Treblinka but were actually sent further East - to the Nazi-occupied territories of the Soviet Union, i.e. the areas of what was then known as the Reichskommissariat Ostland, the Reichskommissariat Ukraine or the Soviet territories under German military administration, in the years 1942 or 1943.

Randi and Shermer don't want to be involved with this. We need someone who is both fair and will be actively involved with this and be able to correspond with us quickly and accept their role as arbiter and hold the money in escrow upon my acceptance of the challenge.

Upon my signed acceptance of the challenge, the money is to be sent to the arbiter who will act as escrow. Once the reward money is accepted by the arbiter, my proof will be sent to the arbiter.

Anyone we choose should be agreed on by both of us and this person should agree in writing and we should be assured they will be able to get back to us within 1 day of receiving the proof, they will acknowledge acceptance of such proof and vet this proof and come to a decision within 1 week.

I implore your comrades to put their money where their mouths are increase the reward money. You all should be so confident, this is your life's work after all. Put your cars up for grabs, deeds to houses. After all, if you're 100% wrong, shouldn't you deserve the fate those bankrupted by your ilk such as Toben have received?

I also want a written concession by each reward fund participant to be part of this, the wording to be determined by me, to be given to the arbiter at the same time as the reward money and handed over to me or the winner upon winning the challenge money.

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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby Nessie » Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:46 pm

This part needs to remain in the challenge in some form or another "bathed and deloused and perhaps (but not necessarily) given a hot meal or drink there" as that is key to claims about TII as a transit camp.

People have to enter the camp, have their property taken, showered, hair cut, deloused, change of clothes or a meal or any combination and then leave the camp for it to be a transit camp as you claim it to be.

They cannot just stop, be sorted and returned to carriages without actually entering inside the camp proper, or wait whilst other carriages are unloaded. That is not a transit, that is a selection.
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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:24 pm

gaschamberhoax wrote:...Jews who are currently claimed by Yad Vashem, or the US Holocaust Memorial Museum to have been sent on transports which were killed at either Chełmno, Bełżec, Sobibór or Treblinka but were actually sent further East...

Treblinka?
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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby Roberto Muehlenkamp » Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:34 pm

gaschamberhoax wrote:The language I want is that -

Your challenge reward fund will pay $ 1,000 for each name, to whoever can provide, along with corresponding evidence, the names of up to 4 Jews who are currently claimed by Yad Vashem, or the US Holocaust Memorial Museum to have been sent on transports which were killed at either Chełmno, Bełżec, Sobibór or Treblinka but were actually sent further East - to the Nazi-occupied territories of the Soviet Union, i.e. the areas of what was then known as the Reichskommissariat Ostland, the Reichskommissariat Ukraine or the Soviet territories under German military administration, in the years 1942 or 1943.

Randi and Shermer don't want to be involved with this. We need someone who is both fair and will be actively involved with this and be able to correspond with us quickly and accept their role as arbiter and hold the money in escrow upon my acceptance of the challenge.

Upon my signed acceptance of the challenge, the money is to be sent to the arbiter who will act as escrow. Once the reward money is accepted by the arbiter, my proof will be sent to the arbiter.

Anyone we choose should be agreed on by both of us and this person should agree in writing and we should be assured they will be able to get back to us within 1 day of receiving the proof, they will acknowledge acceptance of such proof and vet this proof and come to a decision within 1 week.

I implore your comrades to put their money where their mouths are increase the reward money. You all should be so confident, this is your life's work after all. Put your cars up for grabs, deeds to houses. After all, if you're 100% wrong, shouldn't you deserve the fate those bankrupted by your ilk such as Toben have received?

I also want a written concession by each reward fund participant to be part of this, the wording to be determined by me, to be given to the arbiter at the same time as the reward money and handed over to me or the winner upon winning the challenge money.


I want this, I want that. Do you also want a lollipop, Eric?

First paragraph I have no problem with, unless of course it is meant to substitute the current text explaining the background of the challenge. In that case, forget it. I also don’t negotiate the statements that I expect an Applicant to make if, having taken the Challenge, the Applicant should fail to provide the requested proof within 365 days. And of course a name is not sufficient. Proof that the person in question was actually transited from an extermination camp to the occupied Soviet territories is also required.

Second paragraph, I don’t see what’s the problem with Randi and Shermer, except that they may not be interested. I don’t think the arbiter needs to be “actively involved” with this. On the contrary, I’d prefer an arbiter who has never concerned himself/herself with the subject and couldn’t care less about it.

Third paragraph, an escrow account is fine, but why should it be entrusted to the arbiter? The purpose of an escrow account is to make sure that the money is actually available. That purpose will be served by opening a special account at any bank with instructions that the money be paid to a certain person upon my notification that said person is entitled to the money.

The arbiter is to issue a statement endorsing (or not) the proof submitted, that’s all. Endorsing statements will be immediately accepted by me, bar evidence known to me at the time that they were based on falsified documents and/or false or falsified testimonies. The amount of $1,000 corresponding to each proof accepted by the arbiter will then be transferred to the Applicant’s account. If the evidence submitted should subsequently turn out to consist of forged documents and/or false or falsified testimonies, criminal charges will be placed against the Applicant.

Fourth paragraph, I don’t see what arbiter we could agree upon in writing. Anyone you propose will be some “Revisionist” punk to whom I would not agree if my agreement were required. Under the current setup, you are free to choose whoever you want as an arbiter. Due to the known dishonesty of “Revisionists”, a “Revisionist” arbiter will be required to sign the undertaking transcribed in the article. You are free to require that a non-“Revisionist” arbiter be compelled to sign such statement as well, if that makes you happy.

Fifth paragraph, the Challenge is already open to further fund participants, and your rhetorical baloney may be revealing as to what goes on inside your mind, but other than that it’s quite superfluous.

Sixth paragraph, every other other fund participant will make the same undertaking I have already made, and that’s it.

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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:21 am

Roberto Muehlenkamp wrote:Second paragraph, I don’t see what’s the problem with Randi and Shermer, except that they may not be interested. I don’t think the arbiter needs to be “actively involved” with this. On the contrary, I’d prefer an arbiter who has never concerned himself/herself with the subject and couldn’t care less about it.


As James Randi has retired and Michael Shermer has not been informed of, or acknowledged any such challenge, we should leave them alone.

I'm thinking of alternatives acceptable to all parties under the following terms.

* That a mutually acceptable "judge" will be agreed upon, approached and offered to participate in extreme confidence using a psuedonym in public posts. This way if a 'judge" decides in favour of holocaust deniers his real name cannot be used in publicity though direct quoting. (This works both ways). We would know the person's real name through Private Messages. Pyrrho may agree to become our mutual agent and the only person allowed to contact the judge direct. We would make our public submissions to that person under his forum pseudonym, within a fixed period of time. I would draft an email, acceptable to all parties, approaching and introducing our debate topic to potential judges that define the scope, judicial grounding and rulings required and if acceptable to all parties ask Pyrrho to forward the email in our combined names.

* The nature of the judge's ruling will be defined by the type judge we get. If we get an interested UK magistrate, our submissions will still need to follow best evidence rules for "on the balance of probability". If we get a judge from the Oxford or Yale debating societies, our arguments will need a different approach. If we engage a scientist from science forum or society it will require yet another approach.

I would prefer that we approach a German or Polish "judge" because we are all foreigners ( well apart from Roberto! ) but as everyone is submitting in English then we need to look at Yanks or Brits.

My short list would be
* Approach a UK magistrate known for a interest in general history
* Approach a UK barrister known for an interest in general history.
* Approach a single (judge) from a UK or USA university debating society
* Approach a respected scientist from a related but different discipline from either another society, NGO or even a forum.
* Approach a university historian from the USA or UK who dwells in a related but different period.
* Approach one of the senior academics from the recent forensic investigations into war crimes in Yugoslavia or Rwanda, (but not Dr Colls from Yugoslavian digs)

I have some people in mind if the above parameters are acceptable.

Any other better ideas?

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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby Pyrrho » Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:03 am

Such people would not know me and would be ill-advised to place their trust in a stranger.

There would be no guarantee that a judge's real name would not be made public by an aggrieved participant.

I certainly would not want to trust private personal information to a forum database.

Shared via e-mail with PGP encryption, possibly. Exchanges of and storage of such information in plain text would not be advisable. You'd be better off locking it in a bank vault.
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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:13 am

Pyrrho wrote:Such people would not know me and would be ill-advised to place their trust in a stranger. There would be no guarantee that a judge's real name would not be made public by an aggrieved participant.


Fair enough

I just can't think of anyway of doing this that is going to be acceptable to both sides. "Anyone" we find is going to have their real name used by the side that person rules for and will not wish to be involved. Anyone who doesn't care about their name being made public, will probably already have an opinion. It isn't really a court case as history isn't defined by courts but peer review.

Perhaps a collective of unknown judges of a university debating society would agree to participate simply "for the sport". I'm running out of solutions.
.



There would be no guarantee that a judge's real name would not be made public by an aggrieved participant.

I certainly would not want to trust private personal information to a forum database.

Shared via e-mail with PGP encryption, possibly. Exchanges of and storage of such information in plain text would not be advisable.[/quote]

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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby Pyrrho » Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:35 am

I wouldn't worry about it. I don't think the boilerplate will be settled in either of our lifetimes.
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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:12 am

Pyrrho wrote:I wouldn't worry about it. I don't think the boilerplate will be settled in either of our lifetimes.
Thank you Pyrrho. Common sense prevails.

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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby Roberto Muehlenkamp » Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:53 am

A clarification regarding the first paragraph of Eric's suggestion:

The subject matter of the challenge being the "transit camp" theory whereby Belzec, Sobibór, Treblinka and Chelmno were mere transit stations on the route to the Nazi-occupied Soviet territories, the person whose name is requested must actually have arrived at either of these places and then been taken from that place to somewhere in the occupied Soviet territories. We know from Christian Gerlach's Kalkulierte Morde (http://holocaustcontroversies.yuku.com/topic/1837/Jews-taken-from-other-countries-to-Belorussia) that there were a number of transports from the GG carrying forced laborers to occupied Belarus. A person on any such transport would only count if there is evidence that the transport carrying that person actually stopped at any of the places known to history as the Belzec, Sobibór, Treblinka and Chelmno extermination camps.

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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby Marty Wintonbury » Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:50 am

This seems like very easy money to me. We know that hundreds of thousands of people stopped at these camps, did whatever was needed to get ready to switch transports, and then headed out as healthy and ready as anyone might be. Eric has stated that he can track from 25,000 to 200,000 and has already shown us a large sample of videos of former Treblinka visitors. If these defenders of the faith are honest, and pay up, I would have my faith restored in human nature. I am even keeping my own eyes open. There is a synagogue in my city with ancient, mostly women. I have a feeling that most of them are from Europe somewhere. I have a feeling that if I dropped by asking how many had seen the inside of Treblinka I'd get a show of hands. Will Muehlenkamp then pay up? I have my doubts.

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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby Balmoral » Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:59 am

large sample



:lol:

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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:11 am

Marty Wintonbury wrote:Eric has stated that he can track from 25,000 to 200,000

Yes, he has. Let's remember this and do a count of the number he adds to the 2,387 (http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=22854&p=396416#p396416).
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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby Roberto Muehlenkamp » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:11 pm

Marty Wintonbury wrote:This seems like very easy money to me. We know that hundreds of thousands of people stopped at these camps, did whatever was needed to get ready to switch transports, and then headed out as healthy and ready as anyone might be.


Do "we"? Based on what, other than faith? And who is "we"?

Marty Wintonbury wrote:Eric has stated that he can track from 25,000 to 200,000 and has already shown us a large sample of videos of former Treblinka visitors. If these defenders of the faith are honest, and pay up, I would have my faith restored in human nature. I am even keeping my own eyes open. There is a synagogue in my city with ancient, mostly women. I have a feeling that most of them are from Europe somewhere. I have a feeling that if I dropped by asking how many had seen the inside of Treblinka I'd get a show of hands. Will Muehlenkamp then pay up? I have my doubts.


Doubts based on what?

All your friend has to do to get the maximum amount at stake is to provide, with the corresponding evidence, four names of people who were taken to either of the places known to history as the Belzec, Sobibór, Treblinka and Chelmno extermination camps, and then from there to a destination in the Nazi-occupied Soviet territories as defined under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.de/2011/07/challenge-to-supporters-of-revisionist.html, to an arbiter willing to endorse that evidence. The arbiter's statement has just been updated as follows:

«I/we [name(s) of Arbiter(s)], hereby state that the evidence submitted to me (us) by [name of Applicant] does (does not), in our opinion and according to the standards of evidence we have applied, prove beyond a reasonable doubt that [name of transited person] was transited to the Nazi-occupied Soviet territories in 1942 or 1943 through the camp [name of camp]. This means that we do (do not) consider it proven beyond a reasonable doubt that [name of transited person] underwent the procedure that Jews are supposed to have undergone according to Revisionist claims: taken to the respective camp, then shipped from that camp to a certain destination in the Nazi-occupied territories of the Soviet Union, i.e. the areas of what was then known as the Reichskommissariat Ostland, the Reichskommissariat Ukraine or the Soviet territories under German military administration.»

I am also willing the accept a "Revisionist" as an arbiter, provided that the signs the required undertaking of objective and critical enquiry. So far none has reported to me stating that he wants to be an arbiter and prepared to sign the required undertaking.

If you believe that old Jews in a synagogue near you mean something in support of your faith, maybe you can help Eric in his endeavor. Ask the old ladies if they ever set foot at either of the places known to history as the Belzec, Sobibór, Treblinka and Chelmno extermination camps. If any of them replies affirmatively, ask her if she was then transported from that camp to any of the areas of what was then known as the Reichskommissariat Ostland, the Reichskommissariat Ukraine or the Soviet territories under German military administration. If the lady replies affirmatively to that, try to get her into recording the account of her experiences. You may tell her it’s for the Steven Spielberg foundation or something like that.

If your friend can really track "25,000 to 200,000" deportees from the places known to history as the Belzec, Sobibór, Treblinka and Chelmno extermination camps to places in the Nazi-occupied territories of the Soviet Union, he will have achieved more than the whole "Revisionist" movement (including its main "researchers" Mattogno, Graf and Kues) has achieved since Rassinier. So what's he waiting for to become the greatest "Revisionist" hero of all times, unless what he "stated" is just a load of bigmouthed BS with nothing behind it?

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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby David » Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:42 am

Cerdic wrote:A comment by "Eric" on the blog post (presumably Mr Hunt himself) from 2011 reads:

Not all revisionists believe those who went through the transit camps were "transited" to the "Russian East" , myself included. I believe the Russian East "final solution" was a plan that never materialized due to the Germans losing the war on the Russian front.


Can gaschamberhoax please explain what did, then, infact happen to the 1.5 million+ Jews who were sent to the AR camps? If they were not transited to the east, what happened to them?


This is the old "I claim 1.5 million people were sent to Treblinka. Prove to me
that they left the Camp
" gambit.

Sort of like the "Secret Hitler Order" that you Believers never found.

There are many more likely explanations for where people went than your tale
they were dieseled to death and then ground up in secret bone grinding machines.

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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby David » Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:45 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Marty Wintonbury wrote:Eric has stated that he can track from 25,000 to 200,000

Yes, he has. Let's remember this and do a count of the number he adds to the 2,387 (http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=22854&p=396416#p396416).



I have noticed that SM never tries to integrate the fact that
thousands of detainees left Treblinka into his own sick claims of mass murder
by diesel exhaust.
Could you give that a shot, SM?
Thank you.


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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby David » Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:48 am

Roberto Muehlenkamp wrote:
gaschamberhoax wrote:The language I want is that -

Your challenge reward fund will pay $ 1,000 for each name, to whoever can provide, along with corresponding evidence, the names of up to 4 Jews who are currently claimed by Yad Vashem, or the US Holocaust Memorial Museum to have been sent on transports which were killed at either Chełmno, Bełżec, Sobibór or Treblinka but were actually sent further East - to the Nazi-occupied territories of the Soviet Union, i.e. the areas of what was then known as the Reichskommissariat Ostland, the Reichskommissariat Ukraine or the Soviet territories under German military administration, in the years 1942 or 1943.

Randi and Shermer don't want to be involved with this. We need someone who is both fair and will be actively involved with this and be able to correspond with us quickly and accept their role as arbiter and hold the money in escrow upon my acceptance of the challenge.

Upon my signed acceptance of the challenge, the money is to be sent to the arbiter who will act as escrow. Once the reward money is accepted by the arbiter, my proof will be sent to the arbiter.

Anyone we choose should be agreed on by both of us and this person should agree in writing and we should be assured they will be able to get back to us within 1 day of receiving the proof, they will acknowledge acceptance of such proof and vet this proof and come to a decision within 1 week.

I implore your comrades to put their money where their mouths are increase the reward money. You all should be so confident, this is your life's work after all. Put your cars up for grabs, deeds to houses. After all, if you're 100% wrong, shouldn't you deserve the fate those bankrupted by your ilk such as Toben have received?

I also want a written concession by each reward fund participant to be part of this, the wording to be determined by me, to be given to the arbiter at the same time as the reward money and handed over to me or the winner upon winning the challenge money.


I want this, I want that. Do you also want a lollipop, Eric?
No, I think he is trying to make sure you live up to your
boast. I don't blame him.


First paragraph I have no problem with, unless of course it is meant to substitute the current text explaining the background of the challenge. In that case, forget it. I also don’t negotiate the statements that I expect an Applicant to make if, having taken the Challenge, the Applicant should fail to provide the requested proof within 365 days. And of course a name is not sufficient. Proof that the person in question was actually transited from an extermination camp to the occupied Soviet territories is also required.

Second paragraph, I don’t see what’s the problem with Randi and Shermer, except that they may not be interested. I don’t think the arbiter needs to be “actively involved” with this. On the contrary, I’d prefer an arbiter who has never concerned himself/herself with the subject and couldn’t care less about it.

Third paragraph, an escrow account is fine, but why should it be entrusted to the arbiter? The purpose of an escrow account is to make sure that the money is actually available. That purpose will be served by opening a special account at any bank with instructions that the money be paid to a certain person upon my notification that said person is entitled to the money.

The arbiter is to issue a statement endorsing (or not) the proof submitted, that’s all. Endorsing statements will be immediately accepted by me, bar evidence known to me at the time that they were based on falsified documents and/or false or falsified testimonies. The amount of $1,000 corresponding to each proof accepted by the arbiter will then be transferred to the Applicant’s account. If the evidence submitted should subsequently turn out to consist of forged documents and/or false or falsified testimonies, criminal charges will be placed against the Applicant.

Fourth paragraph, I don’t see what arbiter we could agree upon in writing. Anyone you propose will be some “Revisionist” punk to whom I would not agree if my agreement were required. Under the current setup, you are free to choose whoever you want as an arbiter. Due to the known dishonesty of “Revisionists”, a “Revisionist” arbiter will be required to sign the undertaking transcribed in the article. You are free to require that a non-“Revisionist” arbiter be compelled to sign such statement as well, if that makes you happy.

Fifth paragraph, the Challenge is already open to further fund participants, and your rhetorical baloney may be revealing as to what goes on inside your mind, but other than that it’s quite superfluous.

Sixth paragraph, every other other fund participant will make the same undertaking I have already made, and that’s it.

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The Bring Back to Life Challenge

Postby David » Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:00 am

Marty Wintonbury wrote:This seems like very easy money to me. We know that hundreds of thousands of people stopped at these camps, did whatever was needed to get ready to switch transports, and then headed out as healthy and ready as anyone might be. Eric has stated that he can track from 25,000 to 200,000 and has already shown us a large sample of videos of former Treblinka visitors. If these defenders of the faith are honest, and pay up, I would have my faith restored in human nature. I am even keeping my own eyes open. There is a synagogue in my city with ancient, mostly women. I have a feeling that most of them are from Europe somewhere. I have a feeling that if I dropped by asking how many had seen the inside of Treblinka I'd get a show of hands. Will Muehlenkamp then pay up? I have my doubts.


Muehlenkamp is already backpedling. His "but were actually sent further East" has morphed into "to the occupied Soviet territories is also required"

What about people sent to the Baltic states, or the area originally mentioned as a location for Jewish settlement by Hitler, Eastern Poland?

In short, do you really care about transports OUT of the so-called Death Camps
or are you trying to grab attention with a prevaricating "Challenge?"

My recommendation is you pay for every deportee that Mr. Hunt "brings back to life"
and stop the petty Believer Bullsh*t



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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:50 am

David wrote:I have noticed that SM never tries to integrate the fact that
thousands of detainees left Treblinka into his own sick claims of mass murder
by diesel exhaust.

I've made not a single sick claim. Please show where I've ever written that people were murdered in AR camps by diesel. As to integrating small-scale transfers at AR into the narrative of what happened at them, I've done that in this very forum a number of times, both for what was going on early in 1943 and for the end phase of the camp.

David wrote:Could you give that a shot, SM?
Thank you.


You may not like my answer, but you haven't said why. Hint: the people interviewed for the Shoah Foundation give essentially the same explanation I've given you.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The Bring Back to Life Challenge

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:59 am

David wrote:Muehlenkamp is already backpedling. His "but were actually sent further East" has morphed into "to the occupied Soviet territories is also required"

You might want to push the think button before posting, David.

In the very first post in this thread, here is what the unhinged Eric Hunt wrote:
gaschamberhoax wrote:http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2011/07/challenge-to-supporters-of-revisionist.html

I'm calling for Muehlenkamp to reissue this challenge using simplified language so I can buy a shiny new editing computer. I have not been involved with Revisionism for some time and it expired before I really looked into the issue in depth. I'm also calling on all exterminationists to put their money where their mouths are and add to this reward fund.

The language I call for is this -

I, Roberto Muehlenkamp, have at this moment a certain sum on a savings account, the existence of which I can prove and of which I am prepared to pay up to $ 4,000, $ 1,000 for each name, to the first Revisionist(s) who can provide, along with corresponding conclusive evidence, the names of up to 4 Jews who were transited through Chełmno, Bełżec, Sobibór or Treblinka (not necessarily one per camp, can be all four through one camp, two here and two there or any other combination) to the Nazi-occupied territories of the Soviet Union, i.e. the areas of what was then known as the Reichskommissariat Ostland, the Reichskommissariat Ukraine or the Soviet territories under German military administration, in the years 1942 or 1943.

By transited I mean that the person in question must have been taken to the respective camp, then shipped to a certain destination in the Nazi-occupied territories of the Soviet Union as defined above, e.g. to Minsk, Riga, Kovno or Kiev. . . .

I can prove Jews were sent to Treblinka and then transited East e.g. to Minsk, Riga, Kovno or Kiev and I want the above colored language removed and the challenge simplified so I can win the challenge.

I'm also calling for the challenge money to be put in escrow to be given to me by the arbiter upon accepting my proof.

But wait, there's more . . .
David wrote:What about people sent to the Baltic states, . . . .

David, look up Reichskommassariat Ostland and tell us what you find. Ok?

David wrote:In short, do you really care about transports OUT of the so-called Death Camps
or are you trying to grab attention with a prevaricating "Challenge?"

How embarrassing is this in the light of reading Hunt's words in this very thread.

David wrote:My recommendation is you pay for every deportee that Mr. Hunt "brings back to life"
and stop the petty Believer Bullsh*t

My recommendation to you is that you read and think before posting, that you stop posting lies and gibberish - and that you find out what the RKO was.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby Balmoral » Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:36 am

Apart from the arbiter agreement, it all seemed to be going rather smoothly.... Until David decided to exercise his inalienable right to the manual exercise of typing crap.

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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby bluespaceoddity » Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:16 am

On july 8, 2011, on a now defunct "Revisionst Workshop" he operated, Eric Hunt wrote the following in the "Holocaust Hoax" section of his forum:

My "Transited Jew" Proof - JULES SCHELVIS
Opening statement:
The following information is being presented as proof that - Jules Schelvis – was transited through (both into and out of - ALIVE), the - SOBIBOR - camp operated by the Germans during WW II - and beyond the Lublin / Trawniki / Warthegau areas - and subsequently survived the war:
http://www.sobiborinterviews.nl/en/nede ... s-schelvis
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... bibor.html
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/sobibor ... 1845204198

Closing statement:
In order for me to lay claim to the reward, Roberto Muehlenkmap must now explicitly and legally certify that he endorses my submitted proof. (Which is all the information that is sandwiched between my opening and closing statements.) Roberto Muehlenkmap can legally endorse my proof by posting it - verbatim - along with the following statement in this thread:
I, Roberto Muehlenkmap, acting as sole appointed arbiter of - The $1,000.00 "Transited Jew" Challenge - do hereby explicitly and legally certify that I categorically endorse the following information as meeting my own and Holocaust Controversies claimed standards of proof; and that - Jules Schelvis - was in fact transited through (both into and out of - ALIVE) the - SOBIBOR - camp operated by the Germans during WW II - and beyond the Lublin / Trawniki / Warthegau areas - and subsequently survived the war: * CLAIMANTS IN TOTO – THE REVISIONIST WORKSHOP - POST *


That may have been, as the poster who identifies on Skepticforum as “gaschamberhoax” put it: “before he really looked into the issue in depth”.

Eric Hunt, can I conclude that your submission of Jules Schelvis at the time was premature and that your submission was perhaps based on:
a. A misunderstanding of the historical record you are supposedly refuting
and
b. A misunderstanding of Roberto Muehlenkamp’s challenge in particular?

Or is it perhaps your intention to offer Jules Schelvis once again when you hint at an upcoming Sobibor related submission?

That same day you wrote in a follow up: “I’d rather hold on to my various previously unknown names of AR survivors and recently collected never before seen evidence, so for now, sure, I'll submit Jules Shelvis.”

Eric Hunt, were you perhaps referring to interviews in the USC Shoah Foundation database as “never before seen evidence”? I may misunderstand what you wrote back then and may perhaps have made unwarranted connections between your 2011 comment and your 2014 release of a Treblinka related video but if USC Shoah Foundation interviews were indeed the basis of your July 2011 claim, that would be quite a conceit.

As the discoverer of -and presumably so far only person to have ever watched- USC Shoah Institute interviews, may I ask you, Eric Hunt, if you have found an USC Shoah Foundation interview with one of the people deported from Westerbork to Sobibor in 1943 who had not already been publicly identified, by 1946 at the latest, as a survivor of these transports and selections at Sobibor?
Holocaust deniers have nothing of value to contribute to the record of history.

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Re: The Bring Back to Life Challenge

Postby Nessie » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:47 am

David wrote:......

Muehlenkamp is already backpedling. His "but were actually sent further East" has morphed into "to the occupied Soviet territories is also required"

......


Please deal with this

"gaschamberhoax wrote:......

I'm calling for Muehlenkamp to reissue this challenge using simplified language so I can buy a shiny new editing computer. I have not been involved with Revisionism for some time and it expired before I really looked into the issue in depth. I'm also calling on all exterminationists to put their money where their mouths are and add to this reward fund.

The language I call for is this -

I, Roberto Muehlenkamp, have at this moment a certain sum on a savings account, the existence of which I can prove and of which I am prepared to pay up to $ 4,000, $ 1,000 for each name, to the first Revisionist(s) who can provide, along with corresponding conclusive evidence, the names of up to 4 Jews who were transited through Chełmno, Bełżec, Sobibór or Treblinka (not necessarily one per camp, can be all four through one camp, two here and two there or any other combination) to the Nazi-occupied territories of the Soviet Union, i.e. the areas of what was then known as the Reichskommissariat Ostland, the Reichskommissariat Ukraine or the Soviet territories under German military administration, in the years 1942 or 1943.

By transited I mean that the person in question must have been taken to the respective camp, then shipped to a certain destination in the Nazi-occupied territories of the Soviet Union as defined above, e.g. to Minsk, Riga, Kovno or Kiev. . . ."
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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:45 pm

David seems quiet on this topic all of a sudden.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:19 pm

Hey David,

Did you locate the Baltics yet? Care to share with members of this forum where they're located and what administrative entity they were part of during the period under discussion?

Thanks, SM
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Reissue Muehlenkamp's Challenge so I can win

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:56 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Hey David, Did you locate the Baltics yet?

David doesn't know where Germany is.


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