The IMT, NMTs and other trials

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Cerdic
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The IMT, NMTs and other trials

Postby Cerdic » Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:54 am

This thread is to discuss general criminal proceedings against Germans for war crimes and crimes against humanity committed during the Third Reich.

Nazi crimes on trial: http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/JuNSVEng/J ... mepage.htm

IMT and NMTs transcripts: http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/ ... rials.html

HC posts relating to this: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... 20legalism

To start of with, let's analyse Mark Weber's article: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p167_Webera.html
The first is more to do with the general context and justice of the trials.

and Carlos Porter's short book: http://www.cwporter.com/innocent.htm
This second one deals more with the actual evidence presented.
„(...) Wenn wir irgendetwas beim Nationalsozialismus anerkennen, dann ist es die Anerkennung, daß ihm zum ersten Mal in der deutschen Politik die restlose Mobilisierung der menschlichen Dummheit gelungen ist.“ Kurt Schumacher 23. Februar 1932

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Re: The IMT, NMTs and other trials

Postby deathonacracker » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:44 pm

Weber says:
By far the most important of these was the great Nuremberg trial of 1945-1946, officially known as the International Military Tribunal (IMT).


I'm not sure that this is true to me. These were mostly trials of the higher ups that could be captured by the allies. The Poles had significant trials of higher ups as well such as Hoess and Greiser. Israel tried Eichmann. IMT is simply the most known of the trials and was a couple of movies. The others they use the term lower functionaries, but these lower functionaries were important in carrying out what the uppers did not do. IMT had the Einsatzgruppen, Business and Doctor's trials which most people do not recall. (Much of this is right off the top of my head so excuse failures in memory.) The U.S. cared much more about crimes against peace and aggression. They relied on documents much more than witnesses. The major mistake for the main trial was Kultenbrunner's defense bringing in Hoess who powered the crimes against humanity (the USSR's part of the case). So Weber's first mistake is concentrating on "6 million Jews murdered" rather than the manner in which the case was presented.

So his slant:
here we take a closer look at the general trustworthiness of the evidence cited at Nuremberg and elsewhere for the Holocaust extermination story
Where a lot of evidence was not available or even principle to the trial.

Weber then complans:
The charges were created especially for the occasion, and were applied only to the vanquished.


Germany did sign the Hague and other conventions and they ignored those known rules of warfare. So pleading the above is not being totally honest.

As even some leading Allied figures privately acknowledged at the time, the Nuremberg trials were organized not to dispense impartial justice, but for political purposes


The above is a strawman. Iknow that the United States wanted a fair trial with proper defense. Just like Americans were used to seeing. The British came around to that view despite wanting to shoot them on the spot. The Soviets wanted political show trials and were denied that.

So right off the bat we can begin breaking down Weber's article.

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Re: The IMT, NMTs and other trials

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:27 pm

I highly recommend this book on the NMT, the successor trials to the IMT conducted by the Americans, which goes into the legal basis for the proceedings along with giving a terrific summary of the charges, the verdicts, and the impact on international law which the trials had: Kevin Jon Heller, The Nuremberg Military Tribunals and the Origins of International Criminal Law.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The IMT, NMTs and other trials

Postby Cerdic » Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:50 am

Reading Weber's article -

He spends the first part just citing the opinions of various people. Get on with it!

Then tu quoque. Alleged injustice. Well no, an just trial is not a trial where justice is not applied to everyone possibly guilty of a crime, but where the defendants are guilty of a crime and the evidence presented proves such beyond a reasonable doubt.

Weber cites Bacque! Wow, DOAC, you'd have a field day with this.

Why doesn't Weber actually discuss the charges against Hess?

No single document proves PLAN for killing Jews.

Defense wasn't allowed to bring into evidence a document which proved their (and the Soviets') own aggression?

Good old technical rules of evidence bingo. This is the usual in US courts of law, I believe. Deniers read far too much into it. All it means is that an eyewitness can be seen as the same worth of evidence as a document, if the judge so considers it.

Facts of common knowledge. All that means is - the sky is blue, grass is green, whatever. You don't need to prove that in court.

Just because the Tribunal accepted evidence doesn't mean it considered it to be convincing. Steam chambers didn't end up in the Judgement so we can presume the Tribunal didn't see the Polish report as convincing.

Katyn didn't show up in the judgement either, because contradictory evidence was presented.

Hossbach isn't fraudulent. It's authenticity is now mostly accepted, but I believe Taylor claimed it was a fake.

The August 22, 1939 speech is mostly genuine but indeed the Armenian section was made up.

Good old torture bingo.

Weber authoritatively quotes Pohl!

Extermination denied - witnesses under very little pressure whatsoever testify to extermination, but Nazis with their necks on the line say it didn't happen and it's believable to Weber. Not all of these did necessarily have much knowledge anyway.
Last edited by Cerdic on Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
„(...) Wenn wir irgendetwas beim Nationalsozialismus anerkennen, dann ist es die Anerkennung, daß ihm zum ersten Mal in der deutschen Politik die restlose Mobilisierung der menschlichen Dummheit gelungen ist.“ Kurt Schumacher 23. Februar 1932

Vote Your Conscience.

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Re: The IMT, NMTs and other trials

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:42 am

Cerdic wrote:Just because the Tribunal accepted evidence doesn't mean it considered it to be convincing. Steam chambers didn't end up in the Judgement so we can presume the Tribunal didn't see the Polish report as convincing.

Katyn didn't show up in the judgement either, because contradictory evidence was presented.

Deniers try this sleight of hand repeatedly - acting as though prosecution and tribunal were one in the same. Their argument falls rather short in that, as you say, the tribunals took care to not accept evidence and claims - and on account of the differentiated findings and sentences and, of course, the acquittals.

That American rules of evidence weren't used is hardly an argument for the inherent unfairness of the tribunal.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The IMT, NMTs and other trials

Postby Cerdic » Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:45 am

Just looked at Porter's article. Much of the same - tu quoque, victor's justice, (alleged) forgery, small amount of dubious evidence that wasn't necessarily even accepted as convincing in the judgement.
„(...) Wenn wir irgendetwas beim Nationalsozialismus anerkennen, dann ist es die Anerkennung, daß ihm zum ersten Mal in der deutschen Politik die restlose Mobilisierung der menschlichen Dummheit gelungen ist.“ Kurt Schumacher 23. Februar 1932

Vote Your Conscience.

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Re: The IMT, NMTs and other trials

Postby nickterry » Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:33 pm

Allow me to concur with StatMech's endorsement of Heller's book on the NMT trials.

Apropos discussions elsewhere, it's worth noting that about 2,000 Nazis and German officers/officials were interrogated for the 12 NMT trials, along with several hundred non-Germans.

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Re: The IMT, NMTs and other trials

Postby NathanC » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:30 am

Bumping this old thread on the IMT, NMTs and other trials opened by Cerdic. Monstrous's recycled SPAM on the IMT is refuted by links and examples here.

The NMT Doctors' trial is another one that doesn't fit the deniers' script

1) Exploiting former Nazis and War criminals was higher on the US's priority list than putting them on trial. War Crimes investigators lacked a coordinated approach and were pretty much left to their own devices. It was only thanks to their commitment and resourcefulness that investigations even got off the ground and got somewhere. In contrast, Paperclip was meticulously planned and involved the highest levels of the US military and the government: they had the help of 3000 "T-Force" members. This shows what the American agenda really was: It wasn't to fake the hoax

2) The US Prosecution team at the Doctors' trial studied German law and medical practices rigorously, in order to prove that the German defendants violated their own laws, and to avoid the criticism of "ex post facto" law. For example, they cited the "Professional order for the German Physician" which was issued in 1937 and stated that the importance of the volk did not supersede the rights of the individual.

3) The trial was certainly fair, and as Stat Mech likes to emphasize, the Judges and Prosecution were not the same. The defendants were allowed to defend themselves, and they did a decent job about it. We can add the likes of Karl Brandt and Kurt Blome to the list of NMT defendants who were certainly not "tortured" into "confessing", the way that certain deniers insist they were:

Brandt downplayed his position in Hitler's government and the role of Euthanasia in his testimony. He insisted that even if Euthanasia was done without the subject's consent, it was always intended to relieve their suffering. He also denied knowing any of his co-defendants, and tried to shift the blame to Philip Bouhler. These are not the words of a "tortured" man, but rather no different from those of any man on trial trying to defend himself.

Kurt Blome justified human experimentation by saying it was necessary in wartime, and by saying that the Americans did it too. He stated that no experiments were performed on Political prisoners, and even argued that if they were, such experiments should be permissible in times of war so long as they produced good results. He worked with his wife to produce material showing similar experiments conducted by Anglo-American doctors and researchers. Clearly, neither Blome nor other defendants were "tortured" into testifying.

4) Most of the defendants were given light sentences, or even Acquitted. Kurt Blome, for example, was acquitted no doubt due to his defense testimony. 5 life sentences were issued, and 4 timely sentences were issued. All were eventually commuted/mitigated, no doubt as part of attempts to reintegrate West Germany.


The NMT doctors' trial certainly wasn't perfect. One of the Prosecution witnesses, Andrew Ivy, came very close to perjuring himself, for example. Even so, the actions of the defense and the fact that there were as many acquittals as there were death sentences make it clear that it wasn't "Rigged" or a "Kangaroo court." Deniers don't know what they're talking about.
Last edited by NathanC on Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The IMT, NMTs and other trials

Postby NathanC » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:36 am

It's also worth mentioning that after the IMT, interest in International trials was waning due to friction between the Allied Powers, especially concerning the USSR. American industrialists, for example, lobbied against trials against German industrialists because they feared that the USSR would take such trials as an opportunity to put "Capitalism" on trial. Even Robert Jackson, the chief US prosecutor at the IMT and one of the driving forces for that trial, eventually argued that each of the Allied Powers should instead hold trials in their own zones of occupation, rather than having an Allied Trial like the IMT. In 1947, the Americans rejected an invitation from the French for a second IMT.

This information as well as that in my previous post is from Justice at Nuremberg: Leo Alexander and the Nazi Doctor's trial by Ulf Schmidt.

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Re: The IMT, NMTs and other trials

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:15 am

thanks for this!
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The IMT, NMTs and other trials

Postby NathanC » Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:13 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:thanks for this!


Glad to be of help.

About the Doctor's trial, there's also something worth mentioning in light of the Antisemitic Strawman that Jews want the "spotlight" of the Holocaust all to themselves, something that Stephen Bannon is recently peddling. The victims and survivors that the Prosecution chose to testify in the Doctors' trial were all or mostly non Jews. The very first 4 witnesses were Polish Women who experienced medical experiments at Ravensbruck. Another witness was Karl Hollenreiner, who was of gypsy descent and was the victim of seawater experiments under Beiglbock in Dachau. As we all know and Deniers choose to ignore when it suits them, most of the inmates in the KL system were non-Jews, so Monstrous can shove his BS about "Jews in AR being sent to KLS" up his ass. At the same time, they were the ones who testified in an important American Postwar trial, so the Jews aren't "hogging the spotlight" all to themselves and Stephen Bannon can {!#%@} himself.

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Re: The IMT, NMTs and other trials

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:11 pm

Good point, likewise for Majdanek, given the demographics and killing actions at that camp, Polish political prisoners are among the most important witnesses, including for the mass murder of Jews, ahem, along with Germans (both Camp SS and some Kapos).
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The IMT, NMTs and other trials

Postby NathanC » Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:49 pm

Dr. Harrison was kind enough to share this article regarding the trial of Walter Dejaco in an Austrian Court.

http://www.jta.org/1972/03/13/archive/a ... o-ex-nazis

The jury unanimously found both men not guilty of directly aiding the mass murder of inmates at Auschwitz-Birkenau, the largest death camp in occupied Poland. By a 5-3 vote, the jury decided that Dejaco did not bear a “remote” guilt in the deaths. Ertl was convicted on that charge but excused on grounds he was acting under “duress of orders.”

Austrian courts have a long record of leniency toward Nazi defendants tried on war crimes charges. State Prosecutor Hugo Kresnik said he would seek a re-trial. More than 60 persons testified, including Auschwitz survivors. Many refuted Dejaco’s plea that he did not know what the chambers and ovens were used for.



We can see exactly how the "Allies" and their "Jewish masters" dominated their Austrian "puppets" to stage "show trials".

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Re: The IMT, NMTs and other trials

Postby NathanC » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:20 pm

An interesting review of the phenomenon of so called "fake news", using the Malmedy trial torture hoax as a case study.

https://scroll.in/article/838701/the-ma ... ws-in-1949

We all know how this happened. German defence attorneys and a sympathetic public helped spread rumours that the defendants of the malmedy trial were tortured into confessing ("kicked in the testicles"). The article also mentions the role of the US media in spreading these rumours and whipping up hysteria ("fake news"), with the result that Senate hearings were started to investigate and ultimately disprove the rumours.

What's interesting is the role the media played. Deniers love to insist that Jews "control" the US media, and yet in this case, the media was instrumental in spreading fake news that attacked among others, William Perl, who wasa Jewish refugee from Nazi Germany.

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Re: The IMT, NMTs and other trials

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:18 am

What is the definitive source on the Armenian quote being fake?


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