Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

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Re: Not Steam!?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:17 pm

David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Second, I am of the view that most of the victims at Treblinka were murdered in gas chambers using petrol engines, as described in the testimony of "motorist" Nikolay Shalayev and others (and that witnesses who spoke of other methods of killing in the gas chambers were in error). In addition, some Jews were shot to death at the Lazarett and on occasion elsewhere in the camp and others died in the trains transporting them to the camp.


We are not talking about your "view."

In point of fact, David, we are talking about my view, which is not that the Germans used diesel engines to murder people at Treblinka, despite the number of times you've claimed I have that view.

My post was a direct answer - something you find it uncomfortable to give, btw - to the question
what is your theory about how 1,000,000 people (plus or minus 250,000)
were killed at Treblinka?
you asked me in this post; as anyone can see, your question had nothing whatsoever to do with war-time rumors. I answered explicitly what you asked - which was for my theory of or view on how people were killed at Treblinka.

I am sick of your stupidity. Especially when you present it with flippancy and delusions of adequacy - you can't even get straight what you yourself have asked and posted! Just sayin' . . . it gets tiresome, friend.

David wrote:We are talking about your statement "during the war years mistakes…" to "explain away the Tales of Steam Chambers of Death.
You are obviously wrong. Obviously they were as much part of the "Treblinka Tales"
as your "view."

Try it in English next time . . . as Nessie and I have explained, yes, there circulates all kinds of information, good and bad, among people, with better or worse knowledge, more or less bias, etc, in the periods we're curious about; my view is not a part of that history - the reports of the Polish underground, witness statements to the Oyneg Shabes, rumors heard by nearby residents, etc are. Given the multitude of perspectives and reports, the task of people trying to understand events is to come up with the best explanation for all the evidence . . . not, as you do, to glom onto what you like or don't like, in line with your biases.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:35 pm

David, you forgot to answer Hunt's challenge. What's wrong - not up to it? Don't know {!#%@}? Afraid? Too busy? Ignorant? Tell us, we're your friends . . .
Statistical Mechanic wrote:At http://cohencentrationcamp.in/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=56, Eric Hunt gives us as good an example of his intellectual depravity as anything he's pulled off to date. His plea there for help finding where Jews from Warsaw went from late July though September 1942 gives away that his claims on transit and resettlement come not from what he knows but what he doesn't know - that is, from his preconceived conclusions; such revisionist claims have always lacked support in evidence, as we can see in the Treblinka Transit and Central European threads here. With his appeal for team members, unwittingly Hunt reminds us how revisionists conclude a priori that Jews were resettled and/or survived despite holes in the gurus' story, the gaps that need to be plugged, admits Hunt, and how, with or without evidence, revisionists will always believe in the "Revisionist case."

Hunt is desperate - he has already doubled down on transit and for some reason it now dawns on him that about 300,000 of those taken to Treblinka were hauled there from Warsaw. You'd think Hunt might have tackled this little issue before making his insipid videos about Treblinka, but the revisionist mind works backward, Wonderland style: verdict first, trial to follow.

So what to do - if you're an intrepid lying {!#%@}? Go find some "evidence," anything that can be shoved into crappy, dishonest YouTubes that might fool people who don't know the history all that well.

Here is how Hunt words his admission that deniers proceed from idees fixes, not evidence, and that deniers grasp for ways to support preconceived notions they've already bought into:
I would like to form a team to get as much new information about where did the Warsaw Jews go from July 22nd - September 21st 1942, specifically individuals talking about being transited during this time period ANYWHERE and surviving.

This is one of the perceived holes in the Revisionist case and if we can help plug it up more than has been done by Mattogno, Graf, Kues, it will do a great service to our cause. In fact if we could get enough information it'd be all over for the Treblinka hoax.

"If we could get enough information" on something "we" already believe in firmly, regardless of evidence, and are out trying to huckster - well, FSS, then "we" might actually have something! LOL. Until then, Hunt has his "cause" and is looking for people to do "service" to the cause . . .

Note: Hunt's pathetic plea is posted at the cleverly named "cohencentration camp" web page. The page includes this bit of self-description:
You may know us as goyim, racists, White supremacists, neo-nazis and ‘nazis-who-want-to-kill-six-million-Jews’... We're much more than that. We're not your ordinary, friendly neighbourhood sturmbannführer.

Indeed, more than that - but that as well, a gathering of Nazi wannabes and more. Nicely said.

Thanks to some of the usual suspects for bringing to my attention this ugly own-goal scored by Hunt . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Ignore the facts...Look outraged!

Postby David » Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:08 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Eric Hunt gives us as good an example of his intellectual depravity as anything he's pulled off to date. His plea there for help finding where Jews from Warsaw went from late July though September 1942 gives away that his claims on transit and resettlement come not from what he knows but what he doesn't know -

Hello SM- You are getting a little spittle on the computer screen there.
I suggest that you are the victim of unclear thinking and shouldn't attack Mr. Hunt personally

You seem to demand that Mr. Hunt has an immediate answer to every question you ask.
As fully admitted, the Soviet destruction of "inconvenient" train records, etc.
has made tracing what happened to Warsaw Jews difficult.
Mr. Hunt is out trying to get the information needed to answer your latest demand.
You SHOULD say, "Thank you."
I will note that the Austrian Train Records which did survive show deportation of
large numbers of Austrian Jews to "the East."

For people who might be confused by SM's dramatic display of indignation...
the target of the indignation, Eric Hunt, produced in the video Treblinka Archeology Hoax. The video shows quite well that traditional Believer claims
about Treblinka are false.
No huge mass graves at Treblinka were ever found.
Steam Chambers and diesel gas chambers never could have been used.
The claim that the Germans "destroyed all evidence" is obviously false as shown
by Soviet photographs, aerial photos, and the Lukaszkiewicz Report and Survey
from 1945.
The Germans actually knowingly left a huge amount of physical evidence at
the Treblinka camps…everything from buildings to rail tracks, to the remains
of 2-5,000 human bodies.
That this evidence was partly destroyed by the Soviets in September 1944 and
building foundations and rail tracks destroyed by the Poles thereafter.
Then Mr. Hunt found video testimony of many people who were actually transported OUT of the Treblinka camps.

In the face of this tsunami of real evidence, SM has fallen back to an admittedly
unanswered (or partially answered) question. So, this thread started with
Holocaust doyen Dr. Arad claiming that there were no transfers out of Treblinka II.
That mistake was fine by SM.
But Mr. Hunt's continued search for the Truth gets only a display of "outrage."



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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:04 pm

Ok, I understand, you can’t answer the question.

But you see, the problem isn’t what you try making out - a demand for
an immediate answer to every question you ask.

The problem is that Hunt - with you cheerleading - announced a breakthrough discovery:

1) In Hunt’s words, which we showed to be blatantly wrong-headed as to number and timing,
approximately 10,000 Jewish men, women, and children transited through Treblinka on different trains all throughout the camp's existence

2) And
Don't worry - we'll be finding tens of thousands more transited through, perhaps more that were transited farther east from Treblinka.

3) Leading Hunt to claim that
Treblinka . . . was a transit camp

Verbatim quotations, in this thread, David.

So what you’ve just told us is that Hunt has concluded, without having answers to core questions, that Treblinka was a transit camp! Which dishonest crap, of course, we already knew about - and now, by Hunt’s own admission, after he’s concluded that Treblinka was a transit camp, he’s looking for evidence concerning 300,000 of the people sent there, at the height of its operation!

Sheer idiocy.

David wrote:As fully admitted, the Soviet destruction of "inconvenient" train records, etc. has made tracing what happened to Warsaw Jews difficult.

There are two problems with this statement:
First, I don’t know who fully admitted what. Your catch-phrase doesn’t tell us.
Second, tough {!#%@}. This isn’t golf, David, and you don’t get hardship strokes or do-overs. Whether it is difficult or easy to trace what happened to Warsaw Jews is beside the point: the question is what is your evidence that
Treblinka . . . was a transit camp
when, by Hunt’s admission and now yours, you don’t have a {!#%@} clue what happened to 300,000+ Warsaw Jews in 1942.

David wrote:Mr. Hunt is out trying to get the information needed to answer your latest demand.

He should have thought of that, and gotten the necessary evidence, before claiming that
Treblinka . . . was a transit camp.


David wrote:You SHOULD say, "Thank you.”

I am in fact grateful to the two of you of admitting you don’t have a leg to stand on. But I’d be remiss not to mention Hunt’s desperation and his upside-down methodology.

David wrote:I will note that the Austrian Train Records which did survive show deportation of large numbers of Austrian Jews to "the East.”

So what? How many of those transports went to Treblinka, which is what we’re talking about?
What happened to the Jews deported on these trains from Vienna to Lodz? To Minsk? To Kaunas? To Maly Trostinets? To Izbica? And so on . . .

David wrote:In the face of this tsunami of real evidence, SM has fallen back to an admittedly unanswered (or partially answered) question.

The “tsunami” being invisible and existing in a few deluded brains . . . LOL
We're discussing a core question, that should have been tackled before making ridiculous claims.
And a core question for which there is a great deal of evidence, which you, David, ignore, just as you’ve ignored the question what happened to these people when I asked it and when Hunt asked.
Let me paraphrase what you are really saying in reply to the question what happened to Warsaw Jews from late July through late September 1942:
Duh, ain’t got a clue.

What a great historian of this period you make. Worse even than your clown partner, Hunt.

David wrote:So, this thread started with Holocaust doyen Dr. Arad claiming that there were no transfers out of Treblinka II.

Dealt with. Repeatedly.

David wrote:That mistake was fine by SM.

Do you mean when I wrote that
Arad is not my Bible, despite your lies in the video - no single work is. Arad on BST in fact is in serious need of, er, revision. By a real historian, not your clown act.

Or when I replied to your dishonest wailing about Arad’s supposed denial that anyone was ever sent on from Treblinka?
Not by me. Not by Poliakov, Reitlinger, the Dusseldorf court in 1965, Kranz, and Harrison et al. So there you have it - some minor differences about some small-scale transfers to camps in the KL system.

Or when I explained to you that I have been
differing with Arad
albeit on minor points?
And so on.
You are too easy, David, you make {!#%@} up, you forget what you and others write, you lie, you mix apples and oranges, and you have almost no historical knowledge. Why on earth do you keep at this?

David wrote:Mr. Hunt's continued search for the Truth gets only a display of "outrage."

Bemusement is not outrage. And yet . . .Setting out with a firm conclusion, based on anti-Semitic biases, and groping around with all the skill of a drunk in the dark, wildly seeking to find anything that might be used to prop his a priori beliefs up, is not how someone searching for the truth operates, my friend.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Ignore the facts...Look outraged!

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:10 am

David, the insane holocaust denier wrote:You seem to demand that Mr. Hunt has an immediate answer to every question you ask.
Eric does. On this forum we asked Eric what the gas chambers at Treblinka were. Eric said they were showers. We pointed out there was no water for mass showers. Eric immediately said they were air raid shelters. When we pointed out that air raid shelters didn't have wooden roofs, Eric said they were showers again. Eric Hunt is an idiot.

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Re: Ignore the facts...Look outraged!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:12 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
David, the insane holocaust denier wrote:You seem to demand that Mr. Hunt has an immediate answer to every question you ask.
Eric does. On this forum we asked Eric what the gas chambers at Treblinka were. Eric said they were showers. We pointed out there was no water for mass showers. Eric immediately said they were air raid shelters. When we pointed out that air raid shelters didn't have wooden roofs, Eric said they were showers again. Eric Hunt is an idiot.

And David is an idiotette.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:25 pm

This discussion belongs here, so I'm breaking off from Nessie's CODOH replies thread with this post, in case things continue:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:Arad mentions Dutch Jews at Treblinka.

This is part of the problem: the transports from the Netherlands went to Sobibor. Arad doesn't mention Dutch Jews at any AR camp other than Sobibor. He has a number of references to the Dutch Jews at that camp, which, after all, was where Jules Schelvis was sent. According to Arad (page 148), 19 transports are known to have come from the Netherlands to Sobibor - taking at least 34,313 Jews to the camp.It was to Sobibor and Auschwitz that Dutch Jews were deported - not to Treblinka. Transports from the Netherlands did not go to Treblinka.

Matthew Ellard wrote:I can't remember the context. ( I should look myself) However dating the Dutch Jews arrival may offer complimentary evidence concerning Mr Rosenberg's statement.

I will look this up later but here's what I recall as clouding Rosenberg's case: Zabecki mentioned a transport from Minsk Litewski bypassing Treblinka for Chelm (near Sobibor), Sasha Pechersky's narrative of his deportation in mid-September from Minsk to Sobibor is very similar to Rosenberg's narrative, and the transports of Dutch Jews, who stuck out in Rosenberg's mind, went to Sobibor, not Treblinka.

Matthew Ellard wrote:Tell me if you wish me to transcribe other parts of his testimony to allow discussion and I will do so.

No thanks, have listened to it two or three times. Rosenberg is highly credible, even if - perhaps - the sign he saw as the train slowed at Treblinka, on its way to Sobibor, stuck in his mind. Possibly.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Ignore the facts...Look outraged!

Postby Nessie » Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:00 am

David wrote:.....Eric Hunt, produced in the video Treblinka Archeology Hoax. The video shows quite well that traditional Believer claims
about Treblinka are false.
No huge mass graves at Treblinka were ever found.


They have not been looked for with suitable equipment. What has been found corroborates the testimony that TII as a site was razed to the ground in a cover up of what happened there and an attempt made to make it look like a farm.


David wrote:Steam Chambers and diesel gas chambers never could have been used.


We know, no one denies that. It was a mistake at the time of the original intelligence reports due to Nazi secrecy over how the camp functioned.

David wrote:The claim that the Germans "destroyed all evidence" is obviously false as shown
by Soviet photographs, aerial photos, and the Lukaszkiewicz Report and Survey
from 1945.
The Germans actually knowingly left a huge amount of physical evidence at
the Treblinka camps…everything from buildings to rail tracks, to the remains
of 2-5,000 human bodies.


It was made to look like a farm.

David wrote:That this evidence was partly destroyed by the Soviets in September 1944 and
building foundations and rail tracks destroyed by the Poles thereafter.
Then Mr. Hunt found video testimony of many people who were actually transported OUT of the Treblinka camps.


They never went IN to TII. Their testimony is of some selections at the trains on arrival. Listen to what they say. None say they went inside, had hair cuts, showers, medicals.

David wrote:In the face of this tsunami of real evidence, SM has fallen back to an admittedly
unanswered (or partially answered) question. So, this thread started with
Holocaust doyen Dr. Arad claiming that there were no transfers out of Treblinka II.
That mistake was fine by SM.
But Mr. Hunt's continued search for the Truth gets only a display of "outrage."


....


Arad is right, there were no transfers out of the death camp part of TII. If you went in for a supposed shower there you died. There were selections outside and some workers past through the non death part of the camp. His was a one liner reply to a one liner question. Of course it not contain the detail you were hoping for.
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Re: Ignore the facts...Look outraged!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:06 pm

As to David's steam fixation:
Nessie wrote:
David wrote:Steam Chambers and diesel gas chambers never could have been used.

We know, no one denies that. It was a mistake at the time of the original intelligence reports due to Nazi secrecy over how the camp functioned.

Here is a discussion from a year or so ago at RODOH666, illustrating denier duplicity on this point as well as how a single source, mistaken as you describe, drove a number of reports on "steam chambers" - with been-there echoing Grubach in treating this "echo" as multiple, independent reports (see how in this post been-there more or less 1) acknowledges his error but 2) persists in his belief).

As to Arad's email to "David Green" and whether Arad was right in that email:
Nessie wrote:
David wrote:In the face of this tsunami of real evidence, SM has fallen back to an admittedly unanswered (or partially answered) question. So, this thread started with Holocaust doyen Dr. Arad claiming that there were no transfers out of Treblinka II.
That mistake was fine by SM.
But Mr. Hunt's continued search for the Truth gets only a display of "outrage."....

Arad is right, there were no transfers out of the death camp part of TII. If you went in for a supposed shower there you died. There were selections outside and some workers past through the non death part of the camp. His was a one liner reply to a one liner question. Of course it not contain the detail you were hoping for.

I'd state this differently. First, to Peter Black: if Hunt's email exchange is not fabricated, then Black wrote to Hunt that
there is no known instance of a person selected out of Treblinka upon arrival and sent to Majdanek as a forced laborer.

In debate in the thread, Hunt omitted Black's statement, as I explained in the early part of this discussion, here, where Black continued
There are no instances of Jews sent through Treblinka under the conditions that you describe - given showers, new clothes, food, water, and put on a train with a new destination.
But Black also added that Jews were however taken from TII to TI for labor and that, in contrast to Treblinka, Jews in small numbers were taken from Sobibor to Majdanek. Black also is said to have written of suspicions of a
handful
of cases of such transfers from Treblinka, adding that
we have no evidence for this.
We are now in danger of ridiculous parsing - Arad's 1980s book as well as other sources, such as Kranz, discussed in this thread and elsewhere, show examples that contradict these sentences in Black's email, which sentences do imply that no evidence exists for transports that went from TII to Majdanek (or elsewhere). We know better and have seen so in this discussion and in prior discussions to this one.

That said, doing history is not a game of gotcha, nor are brief email exchanges how we do it - such emails are not definitive by any means. Published papers, conference presentations, scholarly books, etc are where to look for details, as you imply, and what we should be debating when it comes to what has been reported. And, as with any other historical topic, we will find among the published work, areas for debate, clarification, and correction - contra David and Hunt, this isn't about an official history but rather historians doing their work and improving our knowledge and understanding through research and debate. In addition, not every historian is aware, top of mind, with all the details of specialized findings on narrow topics.

Big picture, Black's email describes a camp for killing Jews, as well as some Poles, Russian POWs, and Roma, which is what TII was - and Hunt, by playing up a small number of transports elsewhere, after 1942, is creating a false depiction of what TII was all about.

As to Arad - Hunt claimed that Peter Black
immediately referred to Arad's material as the number 1 authority;
this phrasing is dishonest - by omission. Taking the email exchange at face value, Black wrote that of Arad's book that it is
the best existing book in English,
qualifying his remark with the words book and in English. Black calls the book
a little dated
and suggests
more recent and up to date
on-line resources, hardly touting Arad as having the last word on Treblinka and Einsatz Reinhard.

Arad's claimed email to "David Green" is brief:
Jews who arrived by train to Treblinka disembarked, were sent in one direction - to the gas chambers. They never boarded others trains and [sic] sent to other camps.

This note is wrong on a number of grounds - selections for labor squads in TII took place, some selections for TI occurred, and the transports to other camps in 1943 discussed by Arad in his book, Schwindt, Poliakov, Reitlinger, the Dusseldorf judgment, Mencel, Berger, and Kranz all contradict the email.

I think Arad's email is both lacking in detail, of course, and wrong. So I disagree that Arad is right - in his email. Again, I take exception to David's lie that Arad's error is "fine" by me. But, as I noted earlier in this thread, Arad wrote this email, supposedly, in his late 80s, over 25 years after publishing BST, where he does discuss two IIRC of the transports through Treblinka. Arad retired from Yad Vashem in 1993, over 20 years before supposedly replying to Hunt/Green with his brief email. The last book he published that I'm aware of was on the Holocaust in the Soviet Union and was published about a decade before the purported email.

So Arad's email, if not fabricated, is in error - but let's keep things in perspective. People make mistakes, emails are not how we state our considered conclusions and full cases, Arad's email comes across as careless and was written well after his research on BST was published . . . and, to state the obvious again, overwhelmingly most, not but not all, Jews taken to Treblinka were killed there.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:33 am

I hate to break it to you, David, but here is David Cole, still rational and still a revisionist, according to you, on Hunt's "theory": well worth a read.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:44 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I hate to break it to you, David, but here is David Cole, still rational and still a revisionist, according to you, on Hunt's "theory": well worth a read.


I liked the way David Cole tricked everyone at CODOH to order his book, that says the holocaust actually happened. They are not the "sharpest knifes in the drawer" at CODOH.
:D

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:08 pm

Hunt's sad post beseeching someone, anyone to help him fill the gaping hole in his story - Warsaw - was posted 18 August. No one has replied to it yet. Does anyone know if Hunt has posted elsewhere about his progress in finding out what anyone even mildly conversant with the history bloody well knows, namely, where Warsaw's Jews were taken in 1942?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby David » Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:59 am

Nessie wrote:Eric Hunt, produced in the video Treblinka Archeology Hoax. The video shows quite well that traditional Believer claims
about Treblinka are false.
No huge mass graves at Treblinka were ever found.


They have not been looked for with suitable equipment. What has been found corroborates the testimony that TII as a site was razed to the ground in a cover up of what happened there and an attempt made to make it look like a farm.


Hello Nessie- Two wildly incorrect statements.
The Soviets and the Poles had "eye witnesses" guide them to the mass graves
UNSUCCESSFULLY. It is not clear how many men the Soviet Army mustered
for the search but they clearly dug up many holes.
The Poles spent several days with a large work crew and then gave up.

As to you repeated claim that the "what was found corroborates the Testimony...
you are daft. Go look at the Soviet photos from 1944
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/photos.html
See the "bakery building?" Does that look like a farm to you?
They also left the shed to the side of the Bakery Building.
There were paths, fences, the rail lines.
Look at http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/lasttracks.html

Look at the Soviet photograph from 1945 (sic) again, you can see how
open the Super Secret Treblinka Camp was and all the evidence the Germans
left.

Please look at the Polish Survey from 1945.
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bmap1.jpg
Care to read what the Surveyor found?
Side Rail to Camp (Do you know of any farm with a rail spur to them?)
Side Rail to Gravel Pit
hard-surfaced Road leading to the Camp
Road to the labor Camp
Cobble-stoned streets IN THE CAMP
Well
Pine Forest CONTAINING BUILDINGS FOR THE GUARDS
Burned down basement (?)
Destroyed house of settler (the Bakery Building which is in the Soviet
Photos cited above. But you can see where the propaganda lie started.
Area of Cremation 1.8 hectar
location of excavations
area of unloading of transports and burial of cadavers

I can tell you're a nice guy Nessie but you are totally wrong on your
claim that the Germans destroyed all evidence.
Clearly most of the useful building material was taken away
but all the evidence of what went on at Treblinka was left.
from rail tracks to graves.

You might notice that the real rail tracks have been pulled up?
Who do you think did that and WHY?



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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:45 am

Sep 12, 2014 post #813 by David wrote:
Nessie wrote:Eric Hunt, produced in the video Treblinka Archeology Hoax. The video shows quite well that traditional Believer claims
about Treblinka are false.
No huge mass graves at Treblinka were ever found.


They have not been looked for with suitable equipment. What has been found corroborates the testimony that TII as a site was razed to the ground in a cover up of what happened there and an attempt made to make it look like a farm.


Hello Nessie. Two wildly incorrect statements.
...


^I certainly hope that incorrect quoting is simply a mistake?

Aug 31, 2014 Post #808 by Nessie wrote:
David wrote:.....Eric Hunt, produced in the video Treblinka Archeology Hoax. The video shows quite well that traditional Believer claims
about Treblinka are false.
No huge mass graves at Treblinka were ever found.


They have not been looked for with suitable equipment. What has been found corroborates the testimony that TII as a site was razed to the ground in a cover up of what happened there and an attempt made to make it look like a farm.
viewtopic.php?p=420386#p420386


As to
David wrote:I can tell you're a nice guy Nessie but you are totally wrong on your
claim that the Germans destroyed all evidence.

Nessie did not make such a claim. He said, as quoted: "TII as a site was razed to the ground in a cover up of what happened there and an attempt made to make it look like a farm."



(Edit: Corrected link.)
Last edited by scrmbldggs on Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Arad does Diesel and Believers get Steamed

Postby David » Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:35 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:David wrote:
Steam Chambers and diesel gas chambers never could have been used.

We know, no one denies that. It was a mistake at the time of the original intelligence reports due to Nazi secrecy over how the camp functioned.

Here is a discussion from a year or so ago at RODOH666, illustrating denier duplicity on this point as well as how a single source, mistaken as you describe, drove a number of reports on "steam chambers"


"We know?" Got a mouse in your pocket, SM?
First let's focus on the embedded and impossible Diesel Tale.
Here is what the Nizkor Gang claims, "Now, the diesel engines used in Treblinka were much larger - they belonged to captured Soviet T-34 tanks.
http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/reinhard/rei ... aq-07.html

Oh...here is a new one from the crazies at ARC!
"the Germans poured chlorine through a window above the chamber.” (Rosenberg, Demjanjuk, Teicholz, p.130)
But they also have diesel-
The engine room was situated behind chamber 3, and contained a heavy tank diesel engine as well as a powerful generator to supply lighting for the camp." (Rum statement, p.498)
f) “A diesel engine for producing carbon monoxide and a generator that supplied the whole camp with electricity were housed in an adjoining room.” (Kogon, p.115)
g) “An adjoining shed housed a diesel engine that produced the carbon monoxide for the chambers.” (EOH, p.1483)

http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/ ... ebcad.html

Oh...this is good! Your "expert" Arad writes, (dixit the experts at ARC)

A room attached to the building contained a diesel engine, which introduced the poisonous carbon monoxide gas through pipes into the chambers, ...” (Arad, p.42)



Back to your mindless flailing away at the embedded nature of the Steam Myth
and your dishonest babbling about "mistake at the time of the original intelligence reports due to Nazi secrecy over how the camp."
You have been reminded that the Steam Story was a key part of the prosecutors'
case at Nuremberg. That was after the War. After extensive interviews with
Treblinka "eye witnesses," after confessions could be extracted from the defendants, after Records could be reviewed, and after the site was examined
in detail looking for evidence. I guess you need to be reminded again or
maybe
you can tell us all what NEW EVIDENCE you are relying upon that the
prosecution did not have in 1946?

COPY OF DOCUMENT 3311-PS

CHARGE No. 6

[Seal of Main Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland]

In accordance with article 6 of the Charter the Poish Government indicts Dr. Hans Frank, Governor General of Poland, of the following crime:

The German authorities acting under the authority of Governor General Dr. Hans Frank established in March 1942 the extermina­tion-camp at Treblinka, intended for mass killing of Jews by suffocating them in steam-filled chambers.

Particulars of the alleged Crime

In 1940 the German authorities established in the village 01 Treblinka. near Malkinia close to the railway-line Warsaw - Bialy­stok, a concentration camp for Poles who refused to deliver contingents of agricultural products ordered by the German administrative authorities. In November 1941, the District Governor of Warsaw, Dr. FISCHER, proclaimed this camp as a general concentration camp for the whole district of Warsaw and ordered all Poles to be deported there who some way or other contravened against the orders or prohibitions of the German authorities. Later on this camp was named "Treblinka A".

In March 1942, the Germans began to erect another camp "Treblinka B", /in the neighbourhood of "Treblinka A"/, intended to become a place of torment for Jews.

The erection of this camp was closely connected with the Ger­man plans aiming at a complete destruction of the Jewish popula­tion in Poland which necessitated the creation of a machinery by means of which the Polish Jews could be killed in large numbers. Late in April 1942, the erection of the first three chambers was finished in which these general massacres were to be performed by means of steam. Somewhat later the erection of the real "death­building" was finished which contains ten death chambers. It was opened for wholesale murders early in autumn 1942.


Steam Rooms were an integral part of the Ugly Myth of Treblinka

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:44 am

:yawn:

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And what did the Soviets find? Buildings, railroads

Postby David » Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:47 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
David wrote:
Nessie wrote:Eric Hunt, produced in the video Treblinka Archeology Hoax. The video shows quite well that traditional Believer claims
about Treblinka are false.
No huge mass graves at Treblinka were ever found.


They have not been looked for with suitable equipment. What has been found corroborates the testimony that TII as a site was razed to the ground in a cover up of what happened there and an attempt made to make it look like a farm.


Hello Nessie. Two wildly incorrect statements.
...


^I certainly hope that incorrect quoting is simply a mistake?

Post #808 Postby Nessie » Sun Aug 31, 2014 wrote:
David wrote:.....Eric Hunt, produced in the video Treblinka Archeology Hoax. The video shows quite well that traditional Believer claims
about Treblinka are false.
No huge mass graves at Treblinka were ever found.


They have not been looked for with suitable equipment. What has been found corroborates the testimony that TII as a site was razed to the ground in a cover up of what happened there and an attempt made to make it look like a farm.
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=22854p420386


As to
David wrote:I can tell you're a nice guy Nessie but you are totally wrong on your
claim that the Germans destroyed all evidence.

Nessie did not make such a claim. He said, as quoted: "TII as a site was razed to the ground in a cover up of what happened there and an attempt made to make it look like a farm."


Hmmm...well then, let's drop the "wildly" adjective and just
say (respectfully) that Nessie was mistaken. The building that some Believers* claim was a "farm house" was really the Bakery Building. It was found fully standing but in a stripped condition by the Soviet investigators as were some other buildings which I cannot identify.

*like Dr. Sturdy-Colls

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David the holocaust denier, telling lie after lie.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:48 am

Lie No1#
David, the lying holocaust denier wrote: No huge mass graves at Treblinka were ever found.
Mass Graves found at Treblinka. (Headline)
These are considerable in size, and very deep, one in particular is 26 by 17 metres.” said Dr Colls.
11 mass graves have been found at Treblinka II David.


Lie No2#
David, the lying holocaust denier wrote:The Soviets and the Poles had "eye witnesses" guide them to the mass graves UNSUCCESSFULLY. It is not clear how many men the Soviet Army mustered for the search but they clearly dug up many holes.
Members of the 65th Guards Army were taken to the correct location of Treblinka Extermination camp and took photos. Where is your evidence they dug any test pits at all?
Soviet 1944 photo Treblinka II.jpg



Lie No3#
David, the lying holocaust denier wrote:The Poles spent several days with a large work crew and then gave up.
Justice Lukaszkiewicz describes finding body parts and human ash at 7.5metres in a mass grave he excavated at Treblinka II.
".....was further excavated in order to discover the depth of the pit in this part of the camp. Numerous human remains were found by these excavations, partially still in a state of decomposition. The soil consists of ashes interspersed with sand, is of a dark gray color and granulous in form. During the excavations, the soil gave off an intense odor of burning and decay. At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was reached"


Lie No4#
David, the lying holocaust denier wrote: See the "bakery building?" Does that look like a farm to you?
The farmhouse was built using bricks from the old and new gas chambers. This is clearly documented in Arad, which you refuse to read.
Ukranian farmhouse treblinka Map.jpg



Lie No5#
David, the lying holocaust denier wrote: You might notice that the real rail tracks have been pulled up? Who do you think did that and WHY?
The German, erasing the evidence of their mass murder under SonderAktion 1005.

SS-Hauptsturmführer Dieter Wisliceny
" I met Standartenfuehrer Blobel , who was leader of Kommando 1005, which was specially assigned to remove all traces of the final solution of the Jewish problem by Einsatz Groups and all other executions. Kommando 1005 operated from at least autumn 1942 to September 1944 and was all this period subordinated to Eichmann .It was their particular assignment to open the graves and remove and cremate the bodies of persons who had been previously executed. Kommando 1005 operated in Russia, Poland and through the Baltic area"

Yankel Wiernik / Jewish slave worker / Camp III (exterminations) / Treblinka II
"At any rate, the cremations were promptly begun. The corpses of men, women, children and old people were exhumed from the mass graves. Whenever such a grave was opened, a terrible stench rose from them, because the bodies were already in an advanced stage of decomposition"
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Re: Arad does Diesel and Believers get Steamed

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:03 am

David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:David wrote:
Steam Chambers and diesel gas chambers never could have been used.

We know, no one denies that. It was a mistake at the time of the original intelligence reports due to Nazi secrecy over how the camp functioned.

Here is a discussion from a year or so ago at RODOH666, illustrating denier duplicity on this point as well as how a single source, mistaken as you describe, drove a number of reports on "steam chambers"


"We know?" Got a mouse in your pocket, SM?...

David, do you really think no one notices your deceptive quoting? Especially since it has been noted before?

Sheesh. You even added your offtopic blue yourself. It was neither used in Nessie's nor StatMech's post posted below.

Talk about false beliefs... :roll:

Statistical Mechanic wrote:As to David's steam fixation:
Nessie wrote:
David wrote:Steam Chambers and diesel gas chambers never could have been used.

We know, no one denies that. It was a mistake at the time of the original intelligence reports due to Nazi secrecy over how the camp functioned.

Here is a discussion from a year or so ago at RODOH666, illustrating denier duplicity on this point as well as how a single source, mistaken as you describe, drove a number of reports on "steam chambers" - with been-there echoing Grubach in treating this "echo" as multiple, independent reports (see how in this post been-there more or less 1) acknowledges his error but 2) persists in his belief).
...
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=22854&p=420396#p420396

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:12 am

And what are you hiding and warming up an old dish in this thread for anyway, David?

Aren't you supposed to answer at least one of the many questions put to you in the recent France '42-'44: La Grande Rafle & beyond thread? Opened in your honor and well stocked by Statistical Mechanic?



_______________________________
Hmmm... here's a thought for ya: Maybe you're hoping for some administrative action? So you can whine and complain about those mean old skeptics on this forum? Being mistreated merely for telling the druth!!!
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Re: Arad does Diesel and Believers get Steamed

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:18 am

scrmbldggs wrote: David, do you really think no one notices your deceptive quoting? Especially since it has been noted before?
Arad's book has an exhaustive analysis and review chapter, of the information reaching, first the Polish underground groups and then foreign countries. It is worth reading as it shows the timelines and sources. Obviously, it was not until individuals escaped from the isolated extermination sub camps areas of Treblinka and Belzec, that the actual process could be described with confidence.

David has to deny these reports as he can't supply any "reports" of happy resettled Jews in Riga or Tallinn. That's "the rub" that annoys David.

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Re: And what did the Soviets find? Buildings, railroads

Postby Nessie » Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:22 am

David wrote:...........
Hmmm...well then, let's drop the "wildly" adjective and just
say (respectfully) that Nessie was mistaken. .........


David, you have yet again been busted for lying, misquoting and refusing to acknowledge your errors. I find that very disrespectful and therefore, as agreed with others your comments will not be responded to.
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Re: Arad does Diesel and Believers get Steamed

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:08 pm

David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:David wrote:
Steam Chambers and diesel gas chambers never could have been used.[/color]

We know, no one denies that. It was a mistake at the time of the original intelligence reports due to Nazi secrecy over how the camp functioned.

Here is a discussion from a year or so ago at RODOH666, illustrating denier duplicity on this point as well as how a single source, mistaken as you describe, drove a number of reports on "steam chambers"


"We know?" Got a mouse in your pocket, SM?

David, please learn how to read and how to quote posts on this forum.
You boldface something Nessie wrote - "We know, no one denies that" - as though I wrote it. My post was in agreement with a point made in Nessie's post but your deceptive method of quoting makes it difficult to disentangle who wrote what and makes it appear that I was the member who made the full statement which Nessie in fact made. It is very discourteous, bordering on slanderous, for you to keep pulling things like this.

David wrote:First let's focus on the embedded and impossible Diesel Tale.

No, let's not. Let's deal with what I replied. Yes, I agreed with Nessie that a small number of initial reports could be picked up and show "traces" in the paper trail today. I chose an example of this. I showed how Grubach and been-there falsified a number of independent reports of steam chambers using examples that drove off a single report.

My point was that I'd caught two deniers fabricating independence of evidence in this instance (been-there's claim, in fact, to which I was responding), using specific examples that turned out not to be independent at all. There are other reports of diesel engines in the AR camps (e.g., Gerstein IIRC, etc) but my point was about a particular attempt at sleight of hand, in line with Nessie's post: Grubach and been-there faking "convergent evidence."

Why did they do that?

Note that been-there, a thoroughly dishonest and obstinate neo-Nazi, actually had to cry "uncle" on this one. Your behavior is worse, shifting to another point. Not going there, dude.

David wrote:Here is what the Nizkor Gang claims, "Now, the diesel engines used in Treblinka were much larger - they belonged to captured Soviet T-34 tanks.

Deal with what I wrote before moving to another point.

David wrote:Oh...here is a new one from the crazies at ARC!
"the Germans poured chlorine through a window above the chamber.” (Rosenberg, Demjanjuk, Teicholz, p.130)

Irrelevant.

David wrote:But they also have diesel-
The engine room was situated behind chamber 3, and contained a heavy tank diesel engine as well as a powerful generator to supply lighting for the camp." (Rum statement, p.498)
f) “A diesel engine for producing carbon monoxide and a generator that supplied the whole camp with electricity were housed in an adjoining room.” (Kogon, p.115)
g) “An adjoining shed housed a diesel engine that produced the carbon monoxide for the chambers.” (EOH, p.1483)

Deal with what I wrote before moving to another point.

David wrote:Oh...this is good! Your "expert" Arad writes,

You mean the Arad of whose book on the AR camps I wrote earlier in this thread
Arad is not my Bible, despite your lies in the video - no single work is. Arad on BST in fact is in serious need of, er, revision. By a real historian?

And now, after misrepresenting what I have said about Arad's work on the AR camps, you fabricate that I wrote about Nazi secrecy in the AR program and Polish intelligence reports, quoting what someone else wrote and describing it as my "dishonest babbling." You should be ashamed:
David wrote:Back to your mindless flailing away at the embedded nature of the Steam Myth
and your dishonest babbling about "mistake at the time of the original intelligence reports due to Nazi secrecy over how the camp."

David, that was what Nessie wrote; my reply was about 2 aspects of his post: 1) how a single source can create multiple traces, 2) denier chicanery on this evidence. Please do not attribute posts made by someone else to me. I never even weighed in at all on Nazi secrecy about the camp.

David wrote:You have been reminded that the Steam Story was a key part of the prosecutors' case at Nuremberg. That was after the War. After extensive interviews with
Treblinka "eye witnesses," after confessions could be extracted from the defendants, after Records could be reviewed, and after the site was examined
in detail looking for evidence. I guess you need to be reminded again or
maybe
you can tell us all what NEW EVIDENCE you are relying upon that the
prosecution did not have in 1946?

COPY OF DOCUMENT 3311-PS

CHARGE No. 6

[Seal of Main Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland]

In accordance with article 6 of the Charter the Poish Government indicts Dr. Hans Frank, Governor General of Poland, of the following crime:

The German authorities acting under the authority of Governor General Dr. Hans Frank established in March 1942 the extermina­tion-camp at Treblinka, intended for mass killing of Jews by suffocating them in steam-filled chambers.

Particulars of the alleged Crime

In 1940 the German authorities established in the village 01 Treblinka. near Malkinia close to the railway-line Warsaw - Bialy­stok, a concentration camp for Poles who refused to deliver contingents of agricultural products ordered by the German administrative authorities. In November 1941, the District Governor of Warsaw, Dr. FISCHER, proclaimed this camp as a general concentration camp for the whole district of Warsaw and ordered all Poles to be deported there who some way or other contravened against the orders or prohibitions of the German authorities. Later on this camp was named "Treblinka A".

In March 1942, the Germans began to erect another camp "Treblinka B", /in the neighbourhood of "Treblinka A"/, intended to become a place of torment for Jews.

The erection of this camp was closely connected with the Ger­man plans aiming at a complete destruction of the Jewish popula­tion in Poland which necessitated the creation of a machinery by means of which the Polish Jews could be killed in large numbers. Late in April 1942, the erection of the first three chambers was finished in which these general massacres were to be performed by means of steam. Somewhat later the erection of the real "death­building" was finished which contains ten death chambers. It was opened for wholesale murders early in autumn 1942.


Steam Rooms were an integral part of the Ugly Myth of Treblinka

And you've been reminded (a) that this was evidence introduced at Nuremberg which didn't enter into the court's judgment, (b) that Treblinka as a whole was not a focus of what the IMT adjudicated, nor were the few mentions of Treblinka the key elements of the prosecution's case at the IMT. I am tired of repeating this argument due to your inability to grasp it, and I assume others I tired of reading your continued posting of the same, refuted crap.

More to the point is the following, which traces 3311-PS back to the same sourcing as described in the RODOH666 post I linked to as well as answers your question about evidence at the iMT and after:
The submission by the Polish government of a summary of evidence mentioning steam chambers as well as another summary mentioning electric chambers143 in both cases can be traced back to the work of the government-in-exile. Neither report took the slightest notice of either the 1944 Soviet or 1945 Polish investigations into the Reinhard camps, or indeed any other postwar investigation. This is perhaps unsurprising, given that the Soviet delegation at Nuremberg was largely recruited from the Ministry of Justice while the actual field investigations into Nazi war crimes had mostly been carried out by the Red Army or provincial civilian authorities, with only minimal assistance from the Extraordinary State Commission. Different agencies had not talked to each other properly.

HC White Paper on the AR camps, pages 70-71
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Arad does Diesel and Believers get Steamed

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:33 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote: David, do you really think no one notices your deceptive quoting? Especially since it has been noted before?
Arad's book has an exhaustive analysis and review chapter, of the information reaching, first the Polish underground groups and then foreign countries. It is worth reading as it shows the timelines and sources. Obviously, it was not until individuals escaped from the isolated extermination sub camps areas of Treblinka and Belzec, that the actual process could be described with confidence.

David has to deny these reports as he can't supply any "reports" of happy resettled Jews in Riga or Tallinn. That's "the rub" that annoys David.

I would recommend the following on the "early reports" to update Arad:
* the HC White Paper (quoted above)
* this partial but longish listing of early reports, you can find it in a thread in SSF on Treblinka (I made a Word file copy and have added more reports to it)
* Michael Fleming, Auschwitz, the Allies and Censorship of the Holocaust (this books focuses on Auschwitz but has extensive, excellent material relevant to this discussion)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: And what did the Soviets find? Buildings, railroads

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:06 pm

Nessie wrote:
David wrote:...........
Hmmm...well then, let's drop the "wildly" adjective and just
say (respectfully) that Nessie was mistaken. .........


David, you have yet again been busted for lying, misquoting and refusing to acknowledge your errors. I find that very disrespectful and therefore, as agreed with others your comments will not be responded to.

I've seen a lot from this lot - but this guy takes the cake. In two posts, he misquoted and mischaracterized you and then attributed two things you wrote to me - and went off, er, "wildly" on tangents! Today he seems to me even worse than been-there over at RODOH666.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:16 am

One of Eric Hunt's favorite bits is to mock Jews' wartime fears of being taken into showers and bathhouses to be killed, fear which came from rumors heard about German gassing of Jews, and to ridicule the relief of survivors who'd not been selected for gassing, like so:
. . . Irene Zisblatts and Zelda Gordons and miracle "water came down insteada da gas" . . .

Gerlach notes (p 356) that fears of murder in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms were widespread enough in the East that Russians had fears like those of some Jews. For example:
In 1944, people deported from the area of Pskov, Russia, to forced labor in Germany, cried when compelled to enter a bathhouse because they feared being gassed.

Because in the world inhabited by Holocaust deniers, putting people in fear for their lives is such a funny joke . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:08 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:One of Eric Hunt's favorite bits is to mock Jews' wartime fears of being taken into showers and bathhouses to be killed, fear which came from rumors heard about German gassing of Jews, and to ridicule the relief of survivors who'd not been selected for gassing, like so:
. . . Irene Zisblatts and Zelda Gordons and miracle "water came down insteada da gas" . . .

Gerlach notes (p 356) that fears of murder in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms were widespread enough in the East that Russians had fears like those of some Jews. For example:
In 1944, people deported from the area of Pskov, Russia, to forced labor in Germany, cried when compelled to enter a bathhouse because they feared being gassed.

Because in the world inhabited by Holocaust deniers, putting people in fear for their lives is such a funny joke . . .


What can we infer from that? That knowledge of the German use of homicidal gas chambers was widespread.

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:51 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:One of Eric Hunt's favorite bits is to mock Jews' wartime fears of being taken into showers and bathhouses to be killed, fear which came from rumors heard about German gassing of Jews, and to ridicule the relief of survivors who'd not been selected for gassing, like so:
. . . Irene Zisblatts and Zelda Gordons and miracle "water came down insteada da gas" . . .

Gerlach notes (p 356) that fears of murder in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms were widespread enough in the East that Russians had fears like those of some Jews. For example:
In 1944, people deported from the area of Pskov, Russia, to forced labor in Germany, cried when compelled to enter a bathhouse because they feared being gassed.

Because in the world inhabited by Holocaust deniers, putting people in fear for their lives is such a funny joke . . .


What can we infer from that? That knowledge of the German use of homicidal gas chambers was widespread.

And that even non-Jews feared that gas would be used to kill them, too, along with Jews being murdered with in gas chambers.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Mon May 16, 2016 5:39 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Hunt dates the transport of these children from Bialystok to 24 August. Sara Bender, in The Jews of Bialystok, page 265, describes the deportation:
Train schedules, telegrams sent to the train stations, and orders placed by the Reich Railway Authority, confirm that the deportation of Bialystok Jews began on August 17, 1943, and ended a week later, on August 23. During that week, more than 25,000 Jews were deported in fourteen transports.

Bender gives train nos. as "PJ 200, 201, etc." Some trains went to Malkinia and then to Lublin. Others to Treblinka (according to Zabecki, trains 201, 203, 204). Still other trains went to Auschwitz, where Jews underwent another selection.
Documents issued by the Reich Railway Authority state that a transport of 1,260 children left Bialystok on August 24 for Theresienstadt. . . . During the Nazi trials in Germany in the 1960s, it was revealed that the children left Bialystok on August 21 or 22 (not August 24 as stated in the Reich Railway Authority documents), in an ordinary passenger train, arriving in Theresienstadt on August 24.
(Bender, page 271)

What happened? Did they run out of cattle cars?


Bender continues her account by telling how (page 272)
In Theresienstadt the children were placed in special barracks to prevent contact with the ghetto residents. The Germans feared that the children might disclose information about Treblinka and other death camps, of which the Theresienstadt population was yet unaware.

Eventually, according to Bender, the children would be murdered at Auschwitz:
Some six weeks later, a transport from Theresienstadt arrived in Auschwitz carrying 1,260 Bialystok children and Czech doctors and nurses. The Auschwitz camp log for October 7, 1943, states: "1,260 Jewish children and 53 Czech chaperones arrived from Theresienstadt in a transport arranged by the Reich Main Security Office, They were killed in gas chambers on the day of their arrival [in the camp].
(Bender, page 272)

So Jews brought to Auschwitz to be gassed weren't registered but their arrival was recorded in a daily log? Was this standard operating procedure during the camp's operation or was it something that only happened sporadically depending on the constantly changing purpose of the camp and need for Jewish labour?

Were the Czech doctors and nurses gassed as well or did they go back to the ghetto to shepard more Jewish children to their deaths?

Did these camp logs that recorded the arrival of Jews for gassing survive the war intact? Is that how we know 1.1 million Jews were gassed at Auschwitz? By adding up the number of Jews who were recorded in the Auschwitz camp log as arriving in the camp and subtracting the number of Jews known to be registered?
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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby nickterry » Mon May 16, 2016 8:14 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:What happened? Did they run out of cattle cars?


No, the 1,260 Bialystok children on this transport were initially slated to be used as exchange hostages, that is why they were sent to Theresienstadt in the first place - no other transport of children, nor from Poland, was treated in this way. This was a one-off event.

So Jews brought to Auschwitz to be gassed weren't registered but their arrival was recorded in a daily log? Was this standard operating procedure during the camp's operation or was it something that only happened sporadically depending on the constantly changing purpose of the camp and need for Jewish labour?

Were the Czech doctors and nurses gassed as well or did they go back to the ghetto to shepard more Jewish children to their deaths?

Did these camp logs that recorded the arrival of Jews for gassing survive the war intact? Is that how we know 1.1 million Jews were gassed at Auschwitz? By adding up the number of Jews who were recorded in the Auschwitz camp log as arriving in the camp and subtracting the number of Jews known to be registered?


The reference to camp log in Bender is in fact to the Auschwitz Chronicle, aka the Kalendarium, a postwar work, not to a primary source. Danuta Czech's entry in the chronicle for this event on 7 October 1943 is cited to other sources.

The doctors and nurses did not survive the war.

A camp log of sorts was kept at Auschwitz, the so-called Fuehrer vom Dienst logbook, i.e. the duty officer noting down special occurrences, this however is only extant for short periods in 1942-43 and doesn't actually bother to list the arrival of most transports, as these were no longer special occurrences but routine; besides which the duty officer changed on a regular basis and each had different ideas of what was noteworthy. It does however list some arrivals in 1942; what it doesn't mention is assigning any guards to escort transports out for 'resettlement', although it mentions assigning guards to escort prisoners from the main camp to Monowitz. The most dramatic entries in the FvD log concern search missions to recapture fugitives from the Sonderkommando (in December 1942).

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon May 16, 2016 11:06 am

Thanks, Nick, saved me some early morning typing. And I would have been less polite than you. Theresienstadt IMO is an interesting topic and perhaps someday I will post here on the camp.

Maryzilla seems to have a lot of time on her hands. Maybe she can help Hunt with this in the meantime:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Hunt's sad post beseeching someone, anyone to help him fill the gaping hole in his story - Warsaw - was posted 18 August. No one has replied to it yet. Does anyone know if Hunt has posted elsewhere about his progress in finding out what anyone even mildly conversant with the history bloody well knows, namely, where Warsaw's Jews were taken in 1942?

As the link in my post is dead now (the link is from 2014), here is another post in which I pleaded with Mary to help poor Eric out - after making his video with its silly claims, he realized he couldn't prove one of its main premises!
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon May 30, 2016 7:34 pm

Just for fun, and as a kind of placeholder, here's another reference rubbishing Hunt's claim to have discovered transits out of Treblinka: in 1963, two years before the judgment in the Treblinka trial in Düsseldorf found that "several thousand" people taken to Treblinka went on to other camps, Alexander Donat wrote The Holocaust Kingdom. In this book, he wrote about blonde and black Itzak from Warsaw both of whom had been transported to Treblinka in May 1943 (pp 174-175):
The whole transport was unloaded outside the camp - the first time such a thing had happened at Treblinka - and the three hundred strongest men were sent to Lublin.

Donat learned about this transport from "blonde Itzak" Rubin later that spring. Donat was mistaken about this being the first time such a thing had occurred, as we've seen in this thread, although it was one of not very many.

We have before Hunt's amazing "discovery," in addition to notes in Kranz (2007) and Arad (1985) on such "transfers," along with Donat's note (1963) and the Düsseldorf judgment (1965), at least the following other references to movement of prisoners past Treblinka to other camps: Poliakov (1951), Reitlinger (1953), Tadeusz Mencel (1997), Schwindt (2005), and the HC White Paper (2011). Heck, I and others IIRC had posted at Rodoh about some of these prisoner movements before Hunt's pathbreaking video.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927


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