Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:52 am

David the insane holocaust denier wrote:The most striking feature of the two tiles is the Star of David in the middle. Your 4 "eye witnesses" seemed to have missed that important detail.
No they didn't. The Star of David motifs are mentioned elsewhere. Bad luck for you.


David the insane holocaust denier wrote:How many tiles were found?
Considering they have excavated the structure of the old gas chamber and "collected many tiles" I guess they have the whole lot, but we will find out in a couple months.

So David, make me laugh. How did 4,000 people a day have a shower in this "bath house" if Treblinka had only one small well? Can you explain to me why there is no plumbing connected to the gas chamber from the well and even more interesting , how was this water pressurized to go through the pipes to the showers?
Water tower.jpg
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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:54 am

Have you exchanged straight jackets with Eric yet?

David the insane holocaust denier wrote:[Just trying to keep you Believers on track.
Uh huh....more lies then?
:D

However I'm having a lovely time reading about your new holocaust denier playmate....are you also "deeply disturbed"

"Hunt had pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity after being extradited to San Francisco from a New Jersey mental institution, Runfola said."

A San Francisco judge on Monday sentenced a troubled New Jersey man convicted of tormenting Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel to the equivalent of time already served, but ordered him to get mental health treatment while on parole.

Eric Hunt quote from court "I had been sucked into anti-Semitic conspiracy theories on the Internet" that deny the Holocaust, he said. "I do not deny the Holocaust. I am not Nazi, racist, white supremacist or anti-Semite. I have tremendous remorse for scaring you."

Dondero then addressed Hunt directly, saying, "the court expects you - I want to be very clear, you have got to maintain mental health treatment - this type of behavior cannot be allowed to happen again."


Man guilty in false imprisonment of Elie Wiesel
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2008/07/2 ... 7020080722

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/W ... 272563.php

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:08 am

David wrote:... The most striking feature of the two tiles is the Star of David in the middle. Your 4 "eye witnesses" seemed to have missed that important
detail. How many tiles were found?

It appears that's the underside of the tiles?

Image

Here's one still attached to concrete.
Image
http://blogs.staffs.ac.uk/archaeology/p ... tion-camp/


ETA http://blogs.staffs.ac.uk/archaeology/p ... derside-c/

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:44 am

scrmbldggs wrote: It appears that's the underside of the tiles?
Yes I'm not sure what's going on. Why is the smooth side pointing upwards? Unless we are looking at the supports to the engine or the connection to a wall. All will be revealed in a month or two.

Unterscharführer Franz Suchomel handled the separation of men and women at Treblinka. He discussed the construction of the new bigger gas chamber at Treblinka.

“The other Jews, still alive, waited for two days; the small gas chambers couldn’t cope. They functioned day and night in that period. My first impression of Treblinka, and some of the others felt the same, it was a catastrophe. Hackenholt and Lambert supervised the Jews who did the work, the bricklaying at least. Ukrainian carpenters made the doors. The gas chamber doors themselves were iron doors from a bunker. I think they were Russian bunker doors, brought from Bialystok. The old gas chambers still hadn’t been demolished. When there were huge transports, the old gas chambers were also used….And here, the Jews say there were 5 on each side, I say 4, but I am not sure, anyway, only the upper four on this side were in use.”

Marty and Mary are unaware of this person and very unaware that he also appears in the film "Shoa" and that Eric Hunt edited out his evidence. David and Eric are too insane to care.

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:39 am

David wrote: You continue to miss the obvious big point, the hundreds of people transferred out of Treblinka were being sent to other camps.

Excuse me - I pointed that out about a month ago at RODOH and then here before you noticed the problem - that those being selected for these transfers were merely being sent into the KL system, not resettled. Which busts the "resettled to the East" lie dating back to the time of your heroes, the Nazis.

Just one example, my first post here on the topic.

Oh heck, another example.

What are you wittering on about?

David wrote:Let me get you thinking with the Believer scenario.
1. The train backs in from Malkenia with 6,000 victims
2. They pour off the train and fact the 4 or 5 Germans and a few Ukrainians.
Then who makes the selections based on what information?
Who manages the hundreds of people "sieved off."

Read this book, preferably before posting again. You should also read Glazar's book, Krzepecki's testimony (in Donat), and Strawczynski. These and other testimonies and books about Treblinka will save you from asking stupid questions in the future.

What you have raised here epitomizes the non-problem. You're tossing about, squirming this way and that, because you've lost the thread in this discussion and cannot provide an explanation for the conclusions you've reached.

David wrote:What you are missing is that somebody at Majdanek had to tell
the people at Majdanek, "hey, don't gas everyone. We need a hair stylist here
in Majdanek." So they saved Zelda Gordon.

Zelda Gordon claims she was forced to sort clothes, by the way. The point’s not trivial – want to guess where clothes coming to Lublin were from?

But so what? Trains were taking valuables, like clothing, from Treblinka to Lublin regularly, Treblinka was administered from Lublin by the headquarters for Aktion Reinhard there. Another non-problem. Unless you think that headquarters didn't communicate with the three AR death camps and that Christian Wirth, for example, was simply taking a vacation in beautiful Lublin. Majdanek and the airfield in Lublin, with their role in storage and sorting of loot, were critical parts of the Aktion.

David wrote:Everyone of the hundreds or thousands of people being shipped OUT of Treblinka required an exemption from the alleged Hitler Order and the what you Believe was the "Process" at Treblinka, i.e.. killing every Jewish arrival at the camp.

I've told you before about the selection process, which was part of the extermination program basically across the board, in one way or another. Selections were not exceptions; they were standard operating procedure. At Auschwitz, selections took place on the infamous ramp at Birkenau during the latter time of the camp's existence. Selections occurred in ghettos, within labor camps, at other death camps.

You seem to know absolutely nothing about what the sources say and what historians argue. You should give this up until you've had a chance to acquire some basic information.

David wrote:But it gets harder for Believers to explain if one listens to their tales of secrecy-
The SS considered the killing centers top secret. To obliterate all traces of gassing operations, special prisoner units (the Sonderkommandos) were forced to remove corpses from the gas chambers and cremate them. The grounds of some killing centers were landscaped or camouflaged to disguise the murder of millions.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php ... d=10005145

Yes, guards at the AR camps were forced to sign a pledge of secrecy. But secrecy broke down in many ways. Ukrainian guard traded with inmates and blabbed, railway workers saw things, the smell of corpses irritated the military authorities in Ostrow, and so on. Reitlinger already discussed this breakdown on the same page I quoted from him earlier in this thread.

David wrote:No. Mr. Hunt was looking at just Treblinka II and just transfers
out of Treblinka. It cuts down the room for Believer prevarication and conflation.

However, if you want to talk about transfers OUT of Sobibor, go for it.

Wow, so you think that Hunt has somehow changed how people should think about the Holocaust by finding, out of over 1 million Jews transported to AR camps, a couple hundred transferred from one of them? You're nuttier than I thought?

David wrote:I suggest you go read Danuta Czech's Auschwitz Chronicle.
The Germans kept records of single detainees, Jewish deportees included.

I've read it. You should check her sidenotes, by the way. That said, the Germans didn't employ remotely similar procedures for the AR camps to those of Auschwitz.

David wrote:Railroad management did like to know when and where
steam engines were running. What seems to have happened is that the propagandists ignored the train records of people leaving Treblinka.

What are you going on about?

David wrote:While I am sympathetic to Mrs. Gordon, I would not bet the Farm
on her testimony. However, her story of being transported OUT of Treblinka II is supported by the other witnesses and by some documentation and for the time being, I am sticking to that single fact.

LOL.

We've already seen how the made-up mind works. But thanks for spelling it out. And thanks too for the illustration of how cherry-picking works. Informative - and revealing.

David wrote:Just trying to keep you Believers on track.

I hope you will now try clarifying, by answering the questions I asked you in this post, what you think the video shows.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:30 am

Marty Wintonbury wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Hi Eric,

To reports of the transfers from Treblinka you've "discovered," we can add to the previous actual discoverers - Poliakov, Reitlinger, the Dusseldorf court in 1965, Kranz, and Harrison et al. - I think (I can't read Polish) Zofia Lesczczynska 1980), cited by Kranz on page 24. Do you know this study?

Welcome back, hope CODOH was all you expected, SM

You can act high and mighty since, at the moment, Mr Hunt has chosen not to continue with this forum full of liars and scoundrels who show no respect for the truth. However, this hardly means that Mr Hunt hasn't destroyed the worthless arguments of the defenders and socially conditioned sheeple who mock the truth.
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8422&sid=c3a06ddebb6facf4c2870caa1f7f1542&start=30#p64009
Here, it is plain to see that Mr Hunt has uncovered 10,000 people who were transitted out of Treblinka to be relocated as Mattogno, Graf and Kues have already suggested. This is groundbreaking news, as no "Holocaust Scholar" has ever accepted the number 10,000 as Mr Hunt has now [proven in unprecedented research.

Speaking of non-problems, Eric Hunt has encountered one with his ignorance of trains taking goods looted from Jews in the AR camps to Lublin.

I like this:
people who were transitted out of Treblinka to be relocated as Mattogno, Graf and Kues have already suggested
- only substitute for "many thousands resettled to the East" the new theory of a "couple hundred recycled to Majdanek and Budzin." LOL

Hey Marty, maybe they were players to be named later for the "AR Football League" you're so keen on? What a trio of confused ignoramuses we have with David, Marty Wintonbury, and Eric Hunt - well, Eric Hunt seems to prefer the back-slapping at CODOH.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby deathonacracker » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:06 pm

And to think SM that Been_there is wondering what happened to one single woman. As though it really matters right? -Thud-

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby David » Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:28 pm

Crazy Matty wrote:
David the Skeptic wrote:The most striking feature of the two tiles is the Star of David in the middle. Your 4 "eye witnesses" seemed to have missed that important detail.
No they didn't. The Star of David motifs are mentioned elsewhere. Bad luck for you.

Yes the Star of David was noticed elsewhere.
So how could all 4 of your witnesses missed it in the tiles?


David the insane holocaust denier wrote:How many tiles were found?
Considering they have excavated the structure of the old gas chamber and "collected many tiles" I guess they have the whole lot, but we will find out in a couple months.

"Many?" Can't Colls count?

So David, make me laugh. How did 4,000 people a day have a shower in this "bath house" if Treblinka had only one small well? Can you explain to me why there is no plumbing connected to the gas chamber from the well and even more interesting , how was this water pressurized to go through the pipes to the showers?
Water tower.jpg


Because 4,000 people a day didn't all take showers.
However you now know that many survivors did.
Care to tell us where the real bath house was?

i

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby deathonacracker » Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:59 pm

Because 4,000 people a day didn't all take showers.
However you now know that many survivors did.
Care to tell us where the real bath house was?


Example above of someone with minimum knowledge of how the process worked.

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:13 pm

David wrote: Yes the Star of David was noticed elsewhere.


Treblinka survivor Oscar Strawczynski received information about the Totenlager from Hershel Jablkowski, he was a Smith in Treblinka, whilst Oscar Strawczynski was a tinsmith, he called:

“Over in Camp 2 there was also the “bath.” It was a large concrete building standing on a cement platform. On its roof and visible from a distance was a wooden Star of David.
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... mbers.html


David wrote:So how could all 4 of your witnesses missed it in the tiles?

You aren't paying attention.



That's the underside of the tile.
http://blogs.staffs.ac.uk/archaeology/p ... derside-c/

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby David » Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:33 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
David wrote:... The most striking feature of the two tiles is the Star of David in the middle. Your 4 "eye witnesses" seemed to have missed that important
detail. How many tiles were found?

It appears that's the underside of the tiles?

Image

Here's one still attached to concrete.
Image
http://blogs.staffs.ac.uk/archaeology/p ... tion-camp/


ETA http://blogs.staffs.ac.uk/archaeology/p ... derside-c/


That could be an explanation.

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:55 pm

David the lying holocaust denier wrote:Because 4,000 people a day didn't all take showers.
So David, you are a complete idiot.

You are saying the Nazis built two "shower houses" at Treblinka, that had a capacity to handle 22,000 people a day but didn't use them because they only had a small well at Treblinka II and no water pressure for any showers at all.

Are you really that stupid?

They are the gas chambers! There is no piping from any source of water you complete moron. Two trains a day arrived with 4,000 to 7,000 per train. That's 14,000 people a day on average. If three trains arrived that's 21,000 people a day, which is the maximum capacity of the gas chambers. There is no water and no water pressure for showers.

Do you believe Eric Hunt's claim that Jews arriving at Treblinka had showers?

The New Gas chamber with a capacity of 12,000 a day (Yankiel Wiernik) and a maximum capacity of 22,000 deaths in 24 hours ( Hauptsturmführer, SS Stangl)

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby David » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:35 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote: You continue to miss the obvious big point, the hundreds of people transferred out of Treblinka were being sent to other camps.


[snip prevarication regarding resettlement]

What you have raised here epitomizes the non-problem. You're tossing about, squirming this way and that, because you've lost the thread in this discussion and cannot provide an explanation for the conclusions you've reached.
?? Anything that challenges your Belief will be a "non-problem"
First, a thank you to Mr. Hunt for doing the research to come up with some
amazing new testimony
Peter Black, of the US Holocaust Memorial Musem wrote,
"There is no known instance of a person selected out of Treblinka upon arrival and sent to Majdanek as a forced laborer."
You have also seen Dr. Arad's recent claim to the same effect.

Now you claim the new information is really "old hat." Ho hum.
So, while you are very eager to jump all over Mr. Hunt for not producing transcripts
you managed not be be bothered by the gross errors of your Believer "experts."




David wrote:What you are missing is that somebody at Majdanek had to tell the people at Majdanek, "hey, don't gas everyone. We need a hair stylist here
in Majdanek." So they saved Zelda Gordon.


[snip attempt at diversion]

But so what? Trains were taking valuables, like clothing, from Treblinka to Lublin regularly, Treblinka was administered from Lublin by the headquarters for Aktion Reinhard there. Another non-problem. Unless you think that headquarters didn't communicate with the three AR death camps and that [snip continued irrelevancies]

Groan….You are an funny guy, MR; you are "forgetting" your
own Holocaust Tale. Please let me refresh your memory.

You claim that Mrs. Gordon as about to be murdered. Right?
BUT, (drum roll) she was saved at death's door, pulled off the conveyor belt of death and sent to Majdanek to sort clothes. Who ordered that?

Same with the 3 doctors. Same with the 100 women. Same with the 500 young men.
Who gave all these orders? And why? Not enough workers at Majdanek?

Have you ever heard of any evidence in any Treblinka confession or eye witness
testimony (other than clear in the testimonies Mr. Hunt found)
of instructions from "Lublin" asking for anybody to be transported to Majdanek?

It is actually a very interesting fact that relates to the German's system.
If you had any real interest in studying the operations of the Holocaust
you would be thanking Mr. Hunt.

But you don't.


David wrote:[color=#0040FF]Everyone of the hundreds or thousands of people being shipped OUT of Treblinka required an exemption from the alleged Hitler Order and the what you Believe was the "Process" at Treblinka, i.e.. killing every Jewish arrival at the camp.

I've told you before about the selection process, which was part of the extermination program basically across the board, in one way or another. Selections were not exceptions; they were standard operating procedure.
Are you really that stupid or just playing stupid?
The transport of detainees OUT of Treblinka requires a more
complex decision making process that just picking a few guys to stay in
Treblinka. It requires communication of labor requirements between Majdanek
and Treblinka. That too is a new wrinkle in the Holocaust Story.


[snip babbling re.Auschwitz],

David wrote:But it gets harder for Believers to explain if one listens to their tales of secrecy-
The SS considered the killing centers top secret. To obliterate all traces of gassing operations, special prisoner units (the Sonderkommandos) were forced to remove corpses from the gas chambers and cremate them. The grounds of some killing centers were landscaped or camouflaged to disguise the murder of millions.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php ... d=10005145

Yes, guards at the AR camps were forced to sign a pledge of secrecy.

[snip babbling about guards and railway workers]

We are discussing hundreds of Jewish detainees who have spent a week in Treblinka and are sent on to mingle with tens of thousands of other detainees.
I could not think of a greater potential breach of security.

Part of the Holocaust Tale is that "Extermination Centers" were superdeduper
secret. So now you SHOULD (but won't) rethink the balance between
labor needs at Majdanek and the (claimed) maximum security at Treblinka.



Wow, so you think that Hunt has somehow changed how people should think about the Holocaust by finding, out of over 1 million Jews transported to AR camps, a couple hundred transferred from one of them? You're nuttier than I thought?
There you are playing the "Crazy Matty" game trying to
minimize the size and number of transports. Mr. Hunt found 12 testimonies in English.
Excellent work but something that must include only a small part of transferees.

Anyway, I don't know what you mean by "should think."
The new fact of transfers out of Treblinka could have a large impact on
the understanding of German operations and priorities.



David wrote:I suggest you go read Danuta Czech's Auschwitz Chronicle.
The Germans kept records of single detainees, Jewish deportees included.

I've read it. [snip diversion] That said, the Germans didn't employ remotely similar procedures for the AR camps to those of Auschwitz.
My, my just a few lines up you wrote,
"I've told you before about the selection process, which was part of the extermination program basically across the board, in one way or another

So, if you are finished squirming, I would agree with your last statement.
That is why selection at Treblinka for inter camp transfers is a new
wrinkle in the story.



[snip]

David wrote:While I am sympathetic to Mrs. Gordon, I would not bet the Farm
on her testimony. However, her story of being transported OUT of Treblinka II is supported by the other witnesses and by some documentation and for the time being, I am sticking to that single fact.

LOL.

We've already seen how the made-up mind works. But thanks for spelling it out. And thanks too for the illustration of how cherry-picking works. Informative - and revealing.

Gee, I thought you were going to praise "convergence of evidence.
Instead you are Denying "eye witness" testimony. Pretty funny.
Mr. Hunt has found close to or more "survivor testimony" to being transported OUT of Treblinka than you have for there being a diesel "gas chamber" in Treblinka.
So please don't lecture people on "made-up minds."

Your tap-dancing and diversions aside your only defense is to insult one
of the eye witnesses, Mrs. Gordon.


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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby deathonacracker » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:47 am

David, learn to use the quote thingy please. I had to do it. Why can't you? :?:

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby David » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:50 am

Crazy Matty wrote:
David the Skeptic wrote:Because 4,000 people a day didn't all take showers.
So David, you are a complete idiot.

You are saying the Nazis built two "shower houses" at Treblinka, that had a capacity to handle 22,000 people a day but didn't use them because they only had a small well at Treblinka II and no water pressure for any showers at all.

Are you really that stupid?

They are the gas chambers! There is no piping from any source of water you complete moron.

Do you believe Eric Hunt's claim that Jews arriving at Treblinka had showers?

The New Gas chamber with a capacity of 12,000 a day (Yankiel Wiernik) and a maximum capacity of 22,000 deaths in 24 hours ( Hauptsturmführer, SS Stangl)

Amazing stories you have there Crazy Matty.
Anyway, you seem to be confusing what the survivor eye witnesses testified to.
They specifically testified to taking showers.

Just so that I understand your rant, are you saying that the alleged "gas chamber"
had no water pipes running to it? Ergo it could not have been a real shower?

Thank you.


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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby deathonacracker » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:50 am

Who testified to taking showers?

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby David » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:00 am

deathonacracker wrote:David, learn to use the quote thingy please. I had to do it. Why can't you? :?:


You don't have to do it. You can use color coding as a style.
I put answers or comments in blue next to what I
am responding to.

By the way, I hope that you are as concerned with dealing with new Holocaust facts and
evidence as you are with my writing style.

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby David » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:03 am

deathonacracker wrote:Who testified to taking showers?


Why don't you just watch the movie?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Pf7RxPAwIs

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby David » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:04 am

David wrote:
deathonacracker wrote:Who testified to taking showers?


Why don't you just watch the movie?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Pf7RxPAwIs


If you are not interested enough to listen to survivor testimony then you
aren't interested.

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:13 am

David the really stupid holocaust denier wrote:Just so that I understand your rant, are you saying that the alleged "gas chamber" had no water pipes running to it?
No I'm saying

1) 14,000 people (two trains a day) requires x 35 litres (1 minute "gravity" shower) =490,000 litre water tank minimum each day.

The well could only supply water for 30 to 50 people and indeed
"since there was a water shortage at Treblinka, and only the Germans and the guards were allowed to use it"

2) A shower works by "water pressure" from a "water tower". There was no water tower at Treblinka. Water was hand carried from the well. How did you water get from the well to the showers under pressure for anyone?

3) Why are there two gas chambers at Treblinka? The old gas chamber has now been excavated. The capacity for gassing was 22,000 people in 24 hours according to Treblinka's commanding officer Stangl. How can these be shower facilities if there is no water for them and no water pressure?

4) Holocaust deniers are incredibly stupid.

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby David » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:14 am

Nessie wrote:It is very important to distinguish between camps. It is non controversial that there were transfers between work camps. It is of major significance if there were or were not transfers out of death camps.

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:18 am

David wrote:
deathonacracker wrote:Who testified to taking showers?


Why don't you just watch the movie?


Because....

1) Eric Hunt has edited the narrations of eyewitneses and has totally removed other eyewitnesses like Stroblel that he stole from "Shoa" whose testimony destroy's Eric Hunt's fanciful claims.

2) Eric Hunt failed to mention all the evidence including the confessions by the commanding officers that Treblinka was an extermination camp and the 20,000 square metres of human ash.

3) Eric Hunt lies and say there have never been investigations of Treblinka. There have been two and even you know about them.

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:02 am

David wrote: [snip prevarication regarding resettlement]

I see that you "snipped" this:
Excuse me - I pointed that out about a month ago at RODOH and then here before you noticed the problem - that those being selected for these transfers were merely being sent into the KL system, not resettled. Which busts the "resettled to the East" lie dating back to the time of your heroes, the Nazis.

Just one example, my first post here on the topic. . . .
calling it a prevarication.

Please, tell us what is evasive and untruthful about my explanation. What I mean is, don't just label what I wrote so that you feel good about dismissing it; tell me what is untruthful.

- Did I not post about a month ago about transfers from Treblinka to Majdanek?
- Did I not post then and afterwards that transfers to the KLs were a new twist on resettlement to the east?
- Did I not link to and copy from posts on the above made at RODOH - and then expand on these points in this thread?

If you make up {!#%@} and say that I didn't, then I will just have to bore myself and others by copying and pasting my posts that prove you wrong.

David wrote:Anything that challenges your Belief will be a "non-problem"

No. You don't know my "beliefs." And also the processing of Jews arriving at Treblinka has been discussed in many places. Summaries can be found, along with the other sources I mentioned, in Arad's BST, pages 83-88, 97. Your questions are a non-problem only because they've been answered, whether you are aware of this or not.

David wrote:Peter Black, of the US Holocaust Memorial Musem wrote,
"There is no known instance of a person selected out of Treblinka upon arrival and sent to Majdanek as a forced laborer."

I showed earlier how Hunt misquoted Black's email.
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
gaschamberhoax wrote:The Senior Historian of the USHMM is unaware of any jews sent to Majdanek. This is from the email posted on my site you haven't bothered to read because you prefer your deranged gassing narrative - < snip > "there is no known instance of A person selected out of Treblinka upon arrival and sent to Majdanek as a forced laborer."

Except his letter states that selections for labor and transport to Majdanek took place. And he is careful, it appears, to write that
There are no known instances of Jews sent through Treblinka under the conditions you describe . . .
(boldface added) At least that's what your gif says. Black did write that he knows of none so chosen
upon arrival.
Black's note discussed instances of transfers to Majdanek under other conditions.

To remind you, according to Hunt, Black wrote that
The total number of Jews who arrived at the two killing centers, were selected as labors and sent elsewhere cannot have exceeded 200.


David wrote:You have also seen Dr. Arad's recent claim to the same effect.

Since his book discusses at least two cases of transfers from Treblinka - ones I've cited earlier in this thread, I will go with that rather than an apparent quick email exchange.

David wrote:Now you claim the new information is really "old hat." Ho hum.

Because the information is not new. I've cited where transfers long before Hunt's video have been discussed. Are you now saying that I am wrong about these prior discussions?

If I am not wrong, then, ipso facto, the information is not new. It may not be "old hat," whatever that means, but it is information that's been known by historians.

David wrote:What you are missing is that somebody at Majdanek had to tell the people at Majdanek, "hey, don't gas everyone. We need a hair stylist here in Majdanek." So they saved Zelda Gordon.

[snip attempt at diversion]

There is nothing diversionary about my correcting your flippancy about those selected for slave labor, as I did in what you "snipped":
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Zelda Gordon claims she was forced to sort clothes, by the way. The point’s not trivial – want to guess where clothes coming to Lublin were from?

In case you are wondering, clothes sorted in the sheds and hangars in Lublin were taken from the victims in the AR camps.

David wrote:But so what? Trains were taking valuables, like clothing, from Treblinka to Lublin regularly, Treblinka was administered from Lublin by the headquarters for Aktion Reinhard there. Another non-problem. Unless you think that headquarters didn't communicate with the three AR death camps and that [snip continued irrelevancies]

Nor is it a diversion or irrelevant for me to explain to you why your mystification about the chain of command in the AR program is nothing more than your ignorance:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:But so what? Trains were taking valuables, like clothing, from Treblinka to Lublin regularly, Treblinka was administered from Lublin by the headquarters for Aktion Reinhard there. Another non-problem. Unless you think that headquarters didn't communicate with the three AR death camps and that Christian Wirth, for example, was simply taking a vacation in beautiful Lublin. Majdanek and the airfield in Lublin, with their role in storage and sorting of loot, were critical parts of the Aktion.

You cannot figure out how labor in Lublin - headquarters of AR - is connected to the AR camps, part and parcel of the same program - and you don't understand how it is relevant that Lublin camps served the AR extermination process by sorting, storing, etc valuables stolen from Jews in AR camps. This is priceless. Your smug reply, empty and ill informed, and your flippancy regarding slave laborers expose you as ignorant and shallow.

David wrote:Groan….You are an funny guy, MR; you are "forgetting" your
own Holocaust Tale. Please let me refresh your memory.

You claim that Mrs. Gordon as about to be murdered. Right?

No. I didn't claim this. I told you that her testimony is dodgy. I trust very little of it. It matches poorly with other evidence.

David wrote:BUT, (drum roll) she was saved at death's door, pulled off the conveyor belt of death and sent to Majdanek to sort clothes. Who ordered that?

Gordon's description of this process and her subsequent rescue aren't believable to me - for reasons discussed starting here on RODOH. (for about 2-3 pages)

David wrote:Same with the 3 doctors. Same with the 100 women. Same with the 500 young men. Who gave all these orders? And why? Not enough workers at Majdanek?

Let's puzzle this out. I told you before, I don't know. I haven't seen these details. Nor, do I think, have you. Records for how and why these particular transports were assembled and sent where they were sent may not exist. For any of us. Unless you know of such records. Do you?

David wrote:Have you ever heard of any evidence in any Treblinka confession or eye witness testimony (other than clear in the testimonies Mr. Hunt found) of instructions from "Lublin" asking for anybody to be transported to Majdanek?

Either write in understandable English or understand that I won't give you an answer.

David wrote:It is actually a very interesting fact that relates to the German's system.
If you had any real interest in studying the operations of the Holocaust
you would be thanking Mr. Hunt.

You mean like how Majdanek and Lublin were related to AR, who administered the project, etc. Which, when I explained how this worked and its significance, you referred to as diversionary irrelevancies. LOL.

David wrote:The transport of detainees OUT of Treblinka requires a more
complex decision making process that just picking a few guys to stay in
Treblinka. It requires communication of labor requirements between Majdanek
and Treblinka. That too is a new wrinkle in the Holocaust Story.

What are you talking about? Selections were a well practiced procedure, with a variety of routines to carry them out, by 1943. Because the final solution involved immediate extermination and forced labor, as described in the Wannsee protocol and Goebbels diary, no order from high levels was needed for officers on the ground to swap laborers around, to fill needs, to select for death those worn out, to spare this guy and that woman. This "complex decision process" is purely your invention. It stems from your ignorance about the final solution and how it was carried out. And how camps were run.

David wrote:[snip babbling re.Auschwitz],

LOL

You want us to forget that you tried making the selection routine at Treblinka the same as the one at Auschwitz:
David wrote: I suggest you go read Danuta Czech's Auschwitz Chronicle.
The Germans kept records of single detainees, Jewish deportees included.

You "snipped" my reply to you and obviously have no answer for it:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I've read it. You should check her sidenotes, by the way. That said, the Germans didn't employ remotely similar procedures for the AR camps to those of Auschwitz.


David wrote:We are discussing hundreds of Jewish detainees who have spent a week in Treblinka and are sent on to mingle with tens of thousands of other detainees.
I could not think of a greater potential breach of security.

Because the Nazis planned to release Jews and make them radio announcers and newspaper editors? Are you completely stupid? Do you practice being dumb? These people were imprisoned in KLs and intended to stay there until worked to death or murdered. They were, as Hunt's video "proves," in the own goal of the century, not resettled but jammed into well-known, murderous KLs.

David wrote:Part of the Holocaust Tale is that "Extermination Centers" were superdeduper secret. So now you SHOULD (but won't) rethink the balance between
labor needs at Majdanek and the (claimed) maximum security at Treblinka.

Open a thread on secrecy but your thorough lack of logic and staggering ignorance here have already been answered.

David wrote:Mr. Hunt found 12 testimonies in English.
Excellent work but something that must include only a small part of transferees.

Until you tell us how you determine number of transports and their size, you haven't shown any such thing.

(David, seriously, it is too hard to reply to your unformatted posts. Please learn to use the quote function. It is a total pain in the ass to sort through your rambling . . . which mixes in what other people have posted. It is rude and makes dialogue difficult.)

David wrote:Anyway, I don't know what you mean by "should think."
The new fact of transfers out of Treblinka could have a large impact on
the understanding of German operations and priorities.

You can't count up the transports, you can't tell us how many people were on them, you can't tell us when they occurred, and others have written about them before. And this is what has you all excited? You must lead a dull existence.

David wrote:My, my just a few lines up you wrote,
"I've told you before about the selection process, which was part of the extermination program basically across the board, in one way or another

You seem to have missed the phrase, which you included in boldface, "one way or another" - the details of the process differed - given, as I wrote, that selections sometimes occurred in ghettos, during roundups (the Duschgangslager at Warsaw), at the point of deportation, on arrival at a camp, in hospitals, on work sites, etc. "One way or another." The Auschwitz way was not, alas, the Treblinka way.

David wrote:So, if you are finished squirming, I would agree with your last statement.

Squirming? I am having a blast. Hunt ran off tail between his legs. Marty is a Nazi true believer. You keep making imbecilic arguments. In fact, I'm very happy I came over here from RODOH, where the mods suspended me for proving a denier plagiarized material. This is a breath of fresh air and fun.

David wrote:That is why selection at Treblinka for inter camp transfers is a new
wrinkle in the story.

Please try being coherent. Selections involving the AR camps are well known and well documented.

Tell us: have your read one book-length account or study about Treblinka? Any AR camp?

David wrote:Gee, I thought you were going to praise "convergence of evidence.

Why on earth would I do that when her testimony as a whole diverges from the vast majority of sources we have for Treblinka?

David wrote:Instead you are Denying "eye witness" testimony. Pretty funny.

Why is it funny to evaluate what a witness says against other evidence?

You have an odd sense of humor.

David wrote:Your tap-dancing and diversions aside your only defense is to insult one
of the eye witnesses, Mrs. Gordon.

I haven't insulted her. I concluded that her testimony doesn't match other evidence. Do you accept her statements that Treblinka was an extermination camp, that she somehow fell back from the gas chambers, etc.?

I see that you like to use the words "tap dancing" for replies you can't answer. Be my guest. I will keep reminding you about your falsehoods and what you are dodging.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:55 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:16 am

David,

Until you master the intricacies of quoting in this forum, I am not replying to you. It takes too much work to give a readbale reply.

Best, SM
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:18 am

David wrote:
deathonacracker wrote:David, learn to use the quote thingy please. I had to do it. Why can't you? :?:


You don't have to do it. You can use color coding as a style.
I put answers or comments in blue next to what I
am responding to.

By the way, I hope that you are as concerned with dealing with new Holocaust facts and
evidence as you are with my writing style.

Your writing style is rude and makes dealing with and discussing substance laborious. So if your style is a lack of courtesy and obstructionism, that's your choice. But don't expect a reply from me until you show me and others basic respect.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:19 am

David wrote:
Nessie wrote:It is very important to distinguish between camps. It is non controversial that there were transfers between work camps. It is of major significance if there were or were not transfers out of death camps.

Nessie is incorrect. Such transfers - at a small scale - have been known for a long time.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby gaschamberhoax » Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:45 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:]
I showed earlier how Hunt misquoted Black's email...... And (Black) is careful, it appears, to write that
There are no known instances of Jews sent through Treblinka under the conditions you describe . . .
(boldface added) At least that's what your gif says. Black did write that he knows of none so chosen
upon arrival.
Black's note discussed instances of transfers to Majdanek under other conditions.

To remind you, according to Hunt, Black wrote that
The total number of Jews who arrived at the two killing centers, were selected as labors and sent elsewhere cannot have exceeded 200.



I didn't misquote Black at all, you can show me where.

This thing you write about "conditions you describe" is just another example of Black being wrong again IN ADDITION to the previous things he's wrong about.

That sentence and those "conditions" deny anyone taking a shower before being transited, when 2, and I believe others in the video (not shown) mention taking showers with groups of hundreds of Jews.



SO black is wrong about -

"...there is no known instance of a person selected out of Treblinka upon arrival and sent to Majdanek as a forced laborer.


Wrong as they are many in the Shoah foundation alone that describe being transited with approximately 10,000 other Jews.

The total number of Jews who arrived at the two killing centers, were selected as labors [sic] and sent elsewhere cannot have exceeded 200.


Wrong, as there are approximately 10,000 Jews just via the Shoah foundation, the 356 documentation at Majdanek alone proves him wrong and this isn't even getting into Sobibor transitees, which he claims is part of the "cannot have exceeded 200."

Nor is there any evidence that any of such selected persons survived German SS and police captivity."


Shoah foundation proves this wrong, not to mention his own museum's Heinz Rosenberg, who happens to also prove the "deadly steam chambers" which became gas chambers were non lethal steam rooms.

And Black's last claim
["There are no instances of Jews sent through Treblinka under the conditions that you describe - given showers, new clothes, food, water, and put on a train with a new destination."


I've also proven wrong with 2 Jews describing just that.

So I didn't misquote Black and it's tiring to deal with SM's lies.

SM, retract your claim I misquoted him or I'll add you to the ignore list as a liar not interested in the truth.

Like I said, claiming I misquoted him when I didn't wouldn't be allowed on a well moderated forum such as CODOH.

Black is demolished, and his view is held by Arad and IS the mainstream othodox exterminationist view, it's necessary to be theirs, as this supports the top secret "pure extermination" camp via gas chambers disguised as shower rooms myth.

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:31 am

David the lying holocaust denier wrote:You can use color coding as a style.
I put answers or comments in blue next to what I am responding to.


Complete crap.
1) You change my posts into pink to suggest I'm homosexual.
2) You started copying my blue posts for your replies to confuse people, after you got caught lying about Treblinka.
3) Your recent posts are in normal black.

All your previous posts were in black until two years ago, however you still don't have the brains to format any quotes since your stroke in 2011.

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby gaschamberhoax » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:48 am

Are you a homosexual? I've never seen a straight man call another man "darling."

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:31 am

David the lying holocaust denier wrote:What a bunch of lying Believer idiots you three are. There is some very interesting evidence presented in the video.

1) That Eric Hunt has left out all the evidence. (archaeology, confessions, human ash)

2) The Eric Hunt steals other people's footage, edits out evidence of the holocaust and still get's the names wrong.

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby gaschamberhoax » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:57 am

Ellard, you claim David is wrong in implying that you'e homosexual. Answer the question -

gaschamberhoax wrote:Are you a homosexual? I've never seen a straight man call another man "darling."

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:21 am

gaschamberhoax wrote:I didn't misquote Black at all, you can show me where.

I already did, although the word I should have used was "mischaracterized."

gaschamberhoax wrote:Wrong as they are many in the Shoah foundation alone that describe being transited with approximately 10,000 other Jews.

I've asked David to explain how this number is arrived at by means of your video: how many individual transports are described, when did each leave Treblinka, how many people were on each, how many witnesses testified about the same transport. David has seen fit not to explain. I'm simply asking you guys to detail and support your case in this thread. You throw a hissy fit about needing to be at CODOH, David ignores direct questions. I want to establish roughly how many people we're talking about, during which time periods, going where, and how it is known. Why the hubbub?

gaschamberhoax wrote:Wrong, as there are approximately 10,000 Jews just via the Shoah foundation, the 356 documentation at Majdanek alone proves him wrong . . .

Heck, even "Thomas Kues" knows that it's not news that a small number of prisoners was transferred out of the AR camps: In 2013 he wrote about this, saying that
It is admitted by exterminationists that, despite the notion of the Reinhardt camps as “pure extermination camps,” a small percentage of the deportees sent to Bełżec, Sobibór and Treblinka were transferred upon arrival to labor camps in the respective surrounding districts. . . . From Treblinka at least several thousands of Jews were transferred to other camps.

On this point Kues cites Carlo Mattogno and Jürgen Graf, Treblinka. Transit Camp or Extermination Camp? which was written in 2004.

gaschamberhoax wrote:SM, retract your claim I misquoted him or I'll add you to the ignore list as a liar not interested in the truth.

Add?
gaschamberhoax wrote:There's just case after case of this for the two stooges here, now on the ignore list, so I can't see their strawmen and lies, attributing false absolutes to me, then refuting them. Classic Strawman. If they want me to see what they have to write they can go to CODOH and have a real moderated debate, but they are afraid to.

Darn, I read that and thought I was one of the two stooges. Guess we'll have to look around to see whom you really have on ignore.

gaschamberhoax wrote:Like I said, claiming I misquoted him when I didn't wouldn't be allowed on a well moderated forum such as CODOH.

But you wrote that
gaschamberhoax wrote:The Senior Historian of the USHMM [Black] is unaware of any jews sent to Majdanek
and yet his email to you, as shown in your gif, says that he suspects a handful of cases of Jews sent to Majdanek. You tried to make it look as if he'd made a blanket statement about this when he didn't.

Edit: crap, early morning pre-caffeine formatting and spelling issues!
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:34 am, edited 6 times in total.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:25 am

gaschamberhoax wrote:Ellard, you claim David is wrong in implying that you'e homosexual. Answer the question -

gaschamberhoax wrote:Are you a homosexual? I've never seen a straight man call another man "darling."

The ignore function must be broken.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby gaschamberhoax » Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:09 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
gaschamberhoax wrote:I didn't misquote Black at all, you can show me where.

I already did, although the word I should have used was "mischaracterized."

You DID show me where I misquoted him? No you didn't. So you know perfectly well I didn't misquote him. I didn't misquote him. It's also nice you can change your own words after the fact so you don't have to retract statements. Clinton would be proud. Talk about mischaracterized.

And you didn't show where I mischaracterized him either, considering I directly quoted him. Unless you're claiming the "conditions you describe" which he puts in a separate paragraph on purpose (the only difference from what he earlier writes about is showers), is also simultaneously applied to the other three earlier claims of Black - which is clearly not true. Either way I show "The conditions I describe" to have occurred. There is no mischaracterization by me of the email I post in its ENTIRETY. Only you are mischaracterizing and denying what he plainly says. "The conditions I describe" are separate from his 3 earlier sentences I debunk. So I'll post exactly what I characterize him as again to get it through to you



SO black is wrong about -

"...there is no known instance of a person selected out of Treblinka upon arrival and sent to Majdanek as a forced laborer.


Wrong as they are many in the Shoah foundation alone that describe being transited with approximately 10,000 other Jews.

The total number of Jews who arrived at the two killing centers, were selected as labors [sic] and sent elsewhere cannot have exceeded 200.


Wrong, as there are approximately 10,000 Jews just via the Shoah foundation, the 356 documentation at Majdanek alone proves him wrong and this isn't even getting into Sobibor transitees, which he claims is part of the "cannot have exceeded 200."

Nor is there any evidence that any of such selected persons survived German SS and police captivity."


Shoah foundation proves this wrong, not to mention his own museum's Heinz Rosenberg, who happens to also prove the "deadly steam chambers" which became gas chambers were non lethal steam rooms.

And Black's last claim
["There are no instances of Jews sent through Treblinka under the conditions that you describe - given showers, new clothes, food, water, and put on a train with a new destination."


I've also proven wrong with 2 Jews describing just that.


gaschamberhoax wrote:Wrong as they are many in the Shoah foundation alone that describe being transited with approximately 10,000 other Jews.


I've asked David to explain how this number is arrived at by means of your video: how many individual transports are described, when did each leave Treblinka, how many people were on each, how many witnesses testified about the same transport. David has seen fit not to explain. I'm simply asking you guys to detail and support your case in this thread. You throw a hissy fit about needing to be at CODOH, David ignores direct questions. I want to establish roughly how many people we're talking about, during which time periods, going where, and how it is known. Why the hubbub?

I've written several times linking to the rough notes I kept for the video - the support and detail which you repeatedly ignore and have obviously not downloaded. The numbers are there and for those who describe entire trainloads being transited with them you can estimate whatever number you want but for our sake we can choose the rather low estimate of 1,000 considering entire trainloads routinely numbered far above that.

HERE ARE THE NOTES ONCE AGAIN -

http://gaschamberhoax.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Treblinka-Transit-List-edited.docx

gaschamberhoax wrote:Like I said, claiming I misquoted him when I didn't wouldn't be allowed on a well moderated forum such as CODOH.

But you wrote that
gaschamberhoax wrote:The Senior Historian of the USHMM [Black] is unaware of any jews sent to Majdanek
and yet his email to you, as shown in your gif, says that he suspects a handful of cases of Jews sent to Majdanek. You tried to make it look as if he'd made a blanket statement about this when he didn't.

He made his own blanket statements - "cannot have exceeded 200" is one and his "handful of cases" is covered under that big blue and white kosher blanket.

Arad, who Black partially deferred to provides an ever more damning blanket statement of his own.

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Nessie » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:33 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:
Nessie wrote:It is very important to distinguish between camps. It is non controversial that there were transfers between work camps. It is of major significance if there were or were not transfers out of death camps.

Nessie is incorrect. Such transfers - at a small scale - have been known for a long time.


Sorry. I tend to towards short, simple posts here to counter the long drawn out, hard to read posts. I accept that there would be transits of small amounts of people.

My question about that is, who were these people? Could they have been staff or prisoners who worked at the camps or were found to have special skills and were hived off at the last minute not to be gassed?
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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Nessie » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:38 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
David wrote:... The most striking feature of the two tiles is the Star of David in the middle. Your 4 "eye witnesses" seemed to have missed that important
detail. How many tiles were found?

It appears that's the underside of the tiles?

Image

Here's one still attached to concrete.
Image
http://blogs.staffs.ac.uk/archaeology/p ... tion-camp/


ETA http://blogs.staffs.ac.uk/archaeology/p ... derside-c/


Thankyou scrmbldggs for you easy to read and well evidenced posts. :D
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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby gaschamberhoax » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:01 pm

Nessie wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:
Nessie wrote:It is very important to distinguish between camps. It is non controversial that there were transfers between work camps. It is of major significance if there were or were not transfers out of death camps.

Nessie is incorrect. Such transfers - at a small scale - have been known for a long time.


Sorry. I tend to towards short, simple posts here to counter the long drawn out, hard to read posts. I accept that there would be transits of small amounts of people.

My question about that is, who were these people? Could they have been staff or prisoners who worked at the camps or were found to have special skills and were hived off at the last minute not to be gassed?



Watch the video, it answers your silly questions.

No they were not staff, LOL. They were not prisoners who worked at Treblinka. They were transited within hours or days..

Some reported special skills were sent to camps where those skills were needed most.

But totally skill-less men, women and children were transferred too. Unless you consider clothes sorting a special skill, or being a child a special skill, as the 1,200 children sent through Treblinka, or the entire trainload of Men, Women, and CHILDREN described by Sam Kulawy.

There was nothing special or superskilled about Zelda Gordon, the 12 year old Linda Penn and her world's oldest Holo-survivor mother but the doctors transferred along with them were skilled, in keeping Jews alive - in "Death camps." Right.
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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:02 pm

Nessie wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:
Nessie wrote:It is very important to distinguish between camps. It is non controversial that there were transfers between work camps. It is of major significance if there were or were not transfers out of death camps.

Nessie is incorrect. Such transfers - at a small scale - have been known for a long time.


Sorry. I tend to towards short, simple posts here to counter the long drawn out, hard to read posts. I accept that there would be transits of small amounts of people.

My question about that is, who were these people? Could they have been staff or prisoners who worked at the camps or were found to have special skills and were hived off at the last minute not to be gassed?

Thanks - they were probably (we don't have good sources) just people wanted or needed for labor. If Zelda Gordon is to be believed, those in February - March from Grodno were not skilled and were used to sort clothing at Lublin. Some seem to have had skills in demand.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby gaschamberhoax » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:03 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:
Nessie wrote:It is very important to distinguish between camps. It is non controversial that there were transfers between work camps. It is of major significance if there were or were not transfers out of death camps.

Nessie is incorrect. Such transfers - at a small scale - have been known for a long time.


Sorry. I tend to towards short, simple posts here to counter the long drawn out, hard to read posts. I accept that there would be transits of small amounts of people.

My question about that is, who were these people? Could they have been staff or prisoners who worked at the camps or were found to have special skills and were hived off at the last minute not to be gassed?

Thanks - they were probably (we don't have good sources) just people wanted or needed for labor. If Zelda Gordon is to be believed, those in February - March from Grodno were not skilled and were used to sort clothing at Lublin. Some seem to have had skills in demand.



Linda Penn asks why they needed 100 women because when they arrived at Majdanek because when they arrived there were thousands.

As Penn proves, the Germans didn't "need" 100 unskilled women and children at all, but they survived because there was never a plan to gas them.

Exterminationists HAVE to claim Gordon and these children and women somehow must have been so valuable, they could see the inside of a top secret pure extermination center, where they were sent to be gassed, actually, and be transited out to tell the entire Jewish population in Poland.

In reality the Germans didn't "need" them at all. They were practically worthless for manual labor as simply looking at Zelda Gordon you can realize this. They were kept alive because there was no plan or even intention to gas or exterminate them, just to get this Jewish community away from Grodno and strip them of the ability to kill German soldiers, which their community was involved in.

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Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:21 pm

gaschamberhoax wrote:He made his own blanket statements - "cannot have exceeded 200" is one and his "handful of cases" is covered under that big blue and white kosher blanket.

So this is now a different point. Black wrote an email to you that was contradictory in parts. That's not what you originally said.

You are peddling two fallacies here:

One is that any single person knows all the details of a historical event or process. That's not how historical knowledge works and is developed - many people work on the same issues and together develop knowledge. Historical understanding comes from the sum total of these endeavors. Any one person may not be aware of the depth that others are in a specialized area.

The second fallacy is that your emails are somehow definitive. Arad's quick email contains minor contradictions to his book; Black's is a bit confusing. These are emails. Anyone can misspeak, anyone can forget details. "Gotcha" games have nothing to do with trying to understand what actually happened. Personally, I will take more seriously what someone publishes in a book than quick emails.

gaschamberhoax wrote:Arad, who Black partially deferred to provides an ever more damning blanket statement of his own.

Now you say partially, before you neglected to include that Black had said Arad's book was in need of updating and the Black had sent you what he considered better places to look.

Have you read Sara Berger's recent book?

We do agree that CODOH would not have allowed me this exchange and thus on CODOH we would not have gotten to see you walk back your earlier comments. A pity.

Now to the substantive issues:
1) It has been shown that, contrary to the cheerleading of David, your video doesn't offer a breakthrough by showing us information about an unknown facet of Treblinka - small scale prisoner transfer. It has been show that Poliakov (1951), Reitlinger (1953), the Dusseldorf court (1965), Arad (1987), Kranz (2007), and Harrison et al (2011) have all written about this facet. It is also likely that Lesczczynska (1980) did so as well. That historians have discussed such transfers was acknowledged by "Kues" in 2013. Nothing you, David, or Marty Wintonbury has said in this forum challenges this point.
2) It has also been shown - by your own video - that the AR transfers we know about were from to other camps, mainly those in the KL system, and have nothing whatsoever to do with resettlement to the East, as revisionists have claimed.
3) The procedure of selection as part of the AR extermination process has been reinforced, just as historians have long maintained. David is still struggling with this basic concept but, just the same, it's been reinforced here. Ancillary to this, we've seen how the AR headquarters in Lublin worked Majdanek and the airfield camp in Lublin into the AR program as a place where Jewish goods stolen from the large numbers of Jews taken to the AR camps, including Treblinka, were processed.
4) We have seen you refuse to detail and support your claims as to numbers involved in these transfers.
5) We have seen you refuse to support a supposed influx of Jewish prisoners into the KL system which should have occurred in 1942-1943 via AR camps by your logic.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927


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