My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:34 pm

WendyO, have you told us all what this report, cited by Roberto (excerpted here), does signify about Chełmno?
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:46 pm

WendyO wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:So you didn't start from a religious-dogmatic premise about Truth?


Yes he did. Jeff's knowledge is faith based, not science based.



My mother would be so happy, apparently I have "faith" in something.

:lol:

Look, Wendy, I've never been to Lincoln, Nebraska. I know it exists because I've read about it, I've seen it on TV and I know people that actually have been there. That's not faith, that's converging evidence that, in fact, Lincoln, Nebraska exists. I can see it on a map, I can look at it on Google Earth.
The same exists for Chelmno. I've read about it, read testimony about it, seen documents regarding it. That's not faith, that's knowledge. I've posted the results of archeological digs done in the early 2000's. That's knowledge, not faith.
So, the grave exists. That's not faith, that's fact. How Muehlenkamp arrived at his figures doesn't matter to me, he's done other calculations based upon grave sites that are acceptable to me because, frankly, I'm terrible at math.

:lol:

So, maybe Muehlenkamp is off. I find that irrelevant because it doesn't matter, the grave exists, regardless. I honestly don't care about Gerdes and his "challenge," he'll never pay regardless.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:18 pm

WendyO, have you told us all what this report, cited by Roberto (excerpted here), does signify about Chełmno?
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby WendyO » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:06 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:So Mr. M claims to have proven all the graves at Chelmno by the standards of German courts, but he's afraid to accept The N.A.F.H. Challenge to pursue his case in American courts? Why is he so afraid to try and prove his Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 proofs beyond reasonable doubt in an American court of law?


Well, did Mr. Gerdes actually contact Mr. Shermer to have him agree to judge this? Or find someone else to do it?


The "someone else to do it" was Roberto Muehlenkamp, so Greg Gerdes didn't have to contact Dr. Shermer. And all indications are that MS was in agreement with RM's request. I have confirmed this. I am getting information from GG and confirming what he is telling me. I will create a post containing statements of fact made by GG to me that I have confirmed to my satisfaction as being true. Matthew is going to be proven the fool and liar that he clearly appears to be. And you are going to end up looking foolish yourself Jeff. Sorry.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby WendyO » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:18 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:So you didn't start from a religious-dogmatic premise about Truth?


Yes he did. Jeff's knowledge is faith based, not science based.


So, the grave exists. That's not faith, that's fact. How Muehlenkamp arrived at his figures doesn't matter to me... maybe Muehlenkamp is off. I find that irrelevant because it doesn't matter, the grave exists, regardless.


Sorry Jeff, that was a statement of faith, not fact. You're deceiving yourself again. If it's not a statement of faith, then

How many metric tons of crushed human Bones can you prove are currently in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36.

What is the proven volume of Chelmno grave # 3 / 36?

And when I say prove or proof, I mean with the same standard as used in American courts, IOW beyond a reasonable doubt.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:28 pm

WendyO wrote:And all indications are that MS was in agreement with RM's request. I have confirmed this.

This is what Roberto posted about Shermer's response: First, Roberto informed Mary Q Contrary and others that Shermer
isn't interested in is having any contact with someone as obnoxious as Greg Gerdes, who moreover appointed him "arbiter" without even asking him if he was interested in being one.

Roberto included some quotations from emails Shermer sent him about this, the first one regarding Gerdes' "appointment" as arbiter:
No, he has not contacted me. His email is treblinkafraud? That pretty much says it all.

Right now I'm dealing with the climate deniers and evolution deniers, so my plate is rather full, but I read through some of the materials you sent me and, well, these deniers certainly have their work cut out for them denying evidence in the form of actual bodies and bones.

And:
It will take me some time to go through all those links and catch up on the scholarship in this area that I have been remiss from for the past decade. As for Gerdes, is there any response I can give that would not just trigger a barrage of invective from him? If, for example, I provided him with all the links you just sent me, and said "here are the mass graves, here are the bodies, remains, and ashes..." wouldn't he just respond as you suggest that this does not constitute proof? Like the creationists, there is no evidence that will ever convince them. Right? I can respond, but what do you suggest in order to avoid an endless parade of invective from him?

And:
I have not been following the Holocaust deniers for many years. In reading your email it sounds like the mass graves at these camps have been excavated and found full of human remains, so what controversy is there?

Where did Shermer agree with the request to be arbiter?

WendyO wrote:I am getting information from GG and confirming what he is telling me. I will create a post containing statements of fact made by GG to me that I have confirmed to my satisfaction as being true.

Get busy. You keep promising these gems.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:29 pm

WendyO wrote:Sorry Jeff, that was a statement of faith, not fact. You're deceiving yourself again. If it's not a statement of faith, then

How many metric tons of crushed human Bones can you prove are currently in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36.

What is the proven volume of Chelmno grave # 3 / 36?

And when I say prove or proof, I mean with the same standard as used in American courts, IOW beyond a reasonable doubt.
WendyO, have you told us all what this report, cited by Roberto (excerpted here), does signify about Chełmno?
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby WendyO » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:32 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Roberto Muehlenkamp wrote:Opening statement:

The following information is being presented as proof that alleged - Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 - contains the remains of at least 19 bodies, in accordance with - The National Association of Forensic Historians TM grave numbering system, which can be seen in this webpage here:

http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php?p= ... count=2629" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

.......

Michael Shermer now has 2 months from today - 15.06.2012 - to explicitly and legally certify that he endorses said posted proof. Michael Shermer can explicitly and legally endorse said posted proof by contacting, via email, Greg Gerdes, President of - The National Association of Forensic Historians TM (Contact information can be found at the bottom of their website: http://www.nafcash.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) and making the following statement to Greg Gerdes:

I, Michael Shermer, acting as sole appointed arbiter of - The National Association of Forensic Historians TM - N.A.F.H. - Crime Scene Investigation Challenge TM, do hereby explicitly and legally certify that I categorically endorse the information in - Roberto Muehlenkamp's - My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs - thread on the Skeptics Society’s forum, as meeting my own, Skeptic Magazine’s and the Skeptics Society’s expressed and implied standards of proof, and that - Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 - does in fact contain the remains of at least 19 bodies. Furthermore, I will publish this certification / endorsement in the next issue of Skeptic Magazine.

(Note: What is to be explicitly and legally certified / endorsed by Michael Shermer is not just all the information that is sandwiched between my opening and closing statements, but also my answers to - The N.A.F.H.’s - C.S.I. / Alleged “Mass Graves” Questionnaire - for this alleged mass grave. (Said questionnaire can be found here: http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6927" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )

And my answers for this alleged mass grave are: the answers linked to here (Page 2).


Time's up. Did Shermer certify these findings?


MS hasn't endorsed one of RM's presentations as meeting his own, The Skeptics Societies' or Skeptic Magazine's expressed and implied standards of proof; not in public or in private. In fact, none of RM's presentations have even met the simple "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard of proof.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby WendyO » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:40 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
WendyO wrote:And all indications are that MS was in agreement with RM's request. I have confirmed this.

This is what Roberto posted about Shermer's response: ...


Do you really think the deceitful RM posted all relevant information about this issue in this thread? Have you forgotten that he was so dishonest in posting his presentation that it wasn't even eligible for the reward?

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Get busy. You keep promising these gems.


Somebody is getting nervous.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby WendyO » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:43 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:WendyO, have you told us all what this report, cited by Roberto (excerpted here), does signify about Chełmno?


SM, have you told us what RM's answers are to these questions:

FYI - This is my __?__ “buried remains / mass grave proof” submitted to Michael Shermer for his endorsement. To date, __?__ of my submittals have been deemed ineligible for a reward due to my noncompliance with the official posting rules that I received from the N.A.F.H. prior to posting my alleged “proofs.” Regardless of eligibility status, __?__ of my submittals have been endorsed by Michael Shermer as meeting his own, Skeptic Magazine’s and the Skeptics Society’s expressed and implied standards of proof.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:46 pm

WendyO wrote:MS hasn't endorsed one of RM's presentations

Shermer's emails castigate Gerdes as a noxious troll. And his emails also express a doubt that there is "any response I can give that would not just trigger a barrage of invective from him." In this vein, Shermer asked Roberto, "what do you suggest in order to avoid an endless parade of invective from him?" He also stated of Roberto's presentation that "these deniers certainly have their work cut out for them denying evidence in the form of actual bodies and bones." Shermer concluded, "In reading your email it sounds like the mass graves at these camps have been excavated and found full of human remains, so what controversy is there?"

Did you somehow miss these statements which Roberto quoted?

WendyO wrote:as meeting his own, The Skeptics Societies' or Skeptic Magazine's expressed and implied standards of proof; not in public or in private.

You have been asked numerous times to explain and give references to this standard of proof. Until you do so, and until you answer other questions asked above, we go round and round. I find it mildly pleasurable watching you make a fool of yourself.

WendyO wrote:In fact, none of RM's presentations have even met the simple "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard of proof.

WendyO, have you told us all what this report, cited by Roberto (excerpted here), does signify about Chełmno?
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:48 pm

WendyO wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
WendyO wrote:And all indications are that MS was in agreement with RM's request. I have confirmed this.

This is what Roberto posted about Shermer's response: ...


Do you really think the deceitful RM posted all relevant information about this issue in this thread? Have you forgotten that he was so dishonest in posting his presentation that it wasn't even eligible for the reward?

See above. Answer the questions you keep dodging. I've already shown that Roberto was not dishonest in what he said - but I've also told you that my interest is what happened at Chełmno, and the evidence about it, not your delusional ranting about Gerdes' contest rules.

WendyO wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Get busy. You keep promising these gems.


Somebody is getting nervous.

Nervous? LOL you confuse my enjoyment of your idiotic antics with nervousness? How strange.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:50 pm

WendyO wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:WendyO, have you told us all what this report, cited by Roberto (excerpted here), does signify about Chełmno?


SM, have you told us what RM's answers are to these questions:

FYI - This is my __?__ “buried remains / mass grave proof” submitted to Michael Shermer for his endorsement. To date, __?__ of my submittals have been deemed ineligible for a reward due to my noncompliance with the official posting rules that I received from the N.A.F.H. prior to posting my alleged “proofs.” Regardless of eligibility status, __?__ of my submittals have been endorsed by Michael Shermer as meeting his own, Skeptic Magazine’s and the Skeptics Society’s expressed and implied standards of proof.

Nope. Doesn't interest me to look back through this thread and others to see how well Roberto completed Gerdes' buffoonish competition forms. I told you what interests me. And I told you to answer the questions that have been put to you - or we will just go round and round.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:51 pm

What's the matter, WendyO? Can't you cough up the gems you keep promising?
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:01 pm

WendyO wrote:beyond a reasonable doubt" standard of proof.


That's something you can stretch to the moon and back.

It's the usual childish denier insistence of "beyond a reasonable doubt." Something nebulous that can be stretched and stretched and never satisfied.

To the denier mind it's THEIR reasonable doubt, never mind all the evidence to the contrary.
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:12 pm

WendyO, chicken: have you told us all what this report, cited by Roberto (excerpted here), does signify about Chełmno? Is this question too hard for you?
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby WendyO » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:14 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Thought I'd stop by--again--and see if Shermer has validated Roberto's New Anti-Math body count calculations yet. Nope. Not yet. OK. I'll check back later.
Greg Gerdes never supplied the first lot of information to Michael Shermer nor even bothered to contact Michael Shermer to see if he was interested in reviewing anything.


He didn't have to, because RM did it for him.

Regarding RM's agreement with GG to have MS determine what would constitute proof of a mass grave, here is some preliminary information:

Roberto Muehlenkamp:

I have located and proven the existence of the Sobibor mass grave numbered "4" by Prof. Andrzej Kola in his 2001 report about Sobibor (I could just as well have picked any other of the seven graves found by Prof. Kola, but I picked # 4 because it is the biggest). I have provided an renowned archaeologist's description of that grave's precise location and his plotting of that grave on a map. I have matched that map with a satellite photograph, on which grave # 4 is one of the graves that can be made out with the naked eye. I have provided the archaeologist's description of the grave's context, from which it can be concluded that well over 4,000 bodies in wax-fat transformation at least lie on the bottom of that grave. I have provided documentary and eyewitness evidence that proves the killing, burial and subsequent cremation of at least 150,000 people at Sobibor extermination camp, and I have demonstrated that grave # 4 can, given it's also containing cremation remains above the layers of bodies in wax-fat transformation and its volume in relation to the total volume of all graves together, be reasonably assumed to contain the remains of about half the people killed at Sobibor.

So the question is: would this be enough, if published in an article in Shermer's Skeptic magazine, to qualify me for the $ 100,000 NAFCASH reward?

YES or NO?

If the answer should be "NO", what more would be required? There's only one additional requirement that I can think of, and that is physically finding the contents of this mass grave by excavation, core drilling or non-invasive subsoil imaging technologies, physically quantifying them to the extent possible, and documenting these physical finds and physical quantification in an archaeological report.

If this is what it takes to satisfy the NAFCASH challenge requirements, please say so, Mr. Gerdes. In that case application for the reward will have to wait until the necessary archaeological works are carried out on site, which as things are now will not happen before October this year.

If, on the other hand, the evidence to location, size and contents of Sobibor grave # 4 presented in my post # 11127 is sufficient to qualify for the NAFCASH reward if submitted in the required form (i.e. publication in SKEPTIC magazine), I shall contact Mr. Shermer right away.

So, Mr. Gerdes, which of them is it?

http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=73168&page=100

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:15 pm

Repeating yourself like a drunk in a dive doesn't distract us from that fact that you're a comical

Image
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:17 pm

WendyO wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:So you didn't start from a religious-dogmatic premise about Truth?


Yes he did. Jeff's knowledge is faith based, not science based.


So, the grave exists. That's not faith, that's fact. How Muehlenkamp arrived at his figures doesn't matter to me... maybe Muehlenkamp is off. I find that irrelevant because it doesn't matter, the grave exists, regardless.


Sorry Jeff, that was a statement of faith, not fact. You're deceiving yourself again. If it's not a statement of faith, then

How many metric tons of crushed human Bones can you prove are currently in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36.

What is the proven volume of Chelmno grave # 3 / 36?

And when I say prove or proof, I mean with the same standard as used in American courts, IOW beyond a reasonable doubt.


Just so we're clear:
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/beyond+a+reasonable+doubt

The key is this:
"If the jurors or judge have no doubt as to the defendant's guilt, or if their only doubts are unreasonable doubts, then the prosecutor has proven the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and the defendant should be pronounced guilty.
The term connotes that evidence establishes a particular point to a moral certainty and that it is beyond dispute that any reasonable alternative is possible. It does not mean that no doubt exists as to the accused's guilt, but only that no Reasonable Doubt is possible from the evidence presented."

So, in other words, if I lure someone to a house and murder them, then burn the body and the evidence is this:

1) People saw me do it.
2) I wrote to a co-conspirator and this documentation details the murder weapon, including ways to make it work better.
3) People saw me burn the body.
4) I left the device I used to burn the body and investigators found it later.
5) I actually left a trail from where I picked the victim up and where I transported the victim to.
6) Investigators find where I dumped the ash and bone fragments.

Then where is the reasonable doubt?
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:20 pm

WendyO wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Thought I'd stop by--again--and see if Shermer has validated Roberto's New Anti-Math body count calculations yet. Nope. Not yet. OK. I'll check back later.
Greg Gerdes never supplied the first lot of information to Michael Shermer nor even bothered to contact Michael Shermer to see if he was interested in reviewing anything.


He didn't have to, because RM did it for him.

Regarding RM's agreement with GG to have MS determine what would constitute proof of a mass grave, here is some preliminary information:

Roberto Muehlenkamp:

I have located and proven the existence of the Sobibor mass grave numbered "4" by Prof. Andrzej Kola in his 2001 report about Sobibor (I could just as well have picked any other of the seven graves found by Prof. Kola, but I picked # 4 because it is the biggest). I have provided an renowned archaeologist's description of that grave's precise location and his plotting of that grave on a map. I have matched that map with a satellite photograph, on which grave # 4 is one of the graves that can be made out with the naked eye. I have provided the archaeologist's description of the grave's context, from which it can be concluded that well over 4,000 bodies in wax-fat transformation at least lie on the bottom of that grave. I have provided documentary and eyewitness evidence that proves the killing, burial and subsequent cremation of at least 150,000 people at Sobibor extermination camp, and I have demonstrated that grave # 4 can, given it's also containing cremation remains above the layers of bodies in wax-fat transformation and its volume in relation to the total volume of all graves together, be reasonably assumed to contain the remains of about half the people killed at Sobibor.

So the question is: would this be enough, if published in an article in Shermer's Skeptic magazine, to qualify me for the $ 100,000 NAFCASH reward?

YES or NO?

If the answer should be "NO", what more would be required? There's only one additional requirement that I can think of, and that is physically finding the contents of this mass grave by excavation, core drilling or non-invasive subsoil imaging technologies, physically quantifying them to the extent possible, and documenting these physical finds and physical quantification in an archaeological report.

If this is what it takes to satisfy the NAFCASH challenge requirements, please say so, Mr. Gerdes. In that case application for the reward will have to wait until the necessary archaeological works are carried out on site, which as things are now will not happen before October this year.

If, on the other hand, the evidence to location, size and contents of Sobibor grave # 4 presented in my post # 11127 is sufficient to qualify for the NAFCASH reward if submitted in the required form (i.e. publication in SKEPTIC magazine), I shall contact Mr. Shermer right away.

So, Mr. Gerdes, which of them is it?

http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=73168&page=100




WTF does Sobibor have to do with it?
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:26 pm

LOL
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby WendyO » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:31 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:beyond a reasonable doubt" standard of proof.


That's something you can stretch to the moon and back.

It's the usual childish denier insistence of "beyond a reasonable doubt." Something nebulous that can be stretched and stretched and never satisfied.

To the denier mind it's THEIR reasonable doubt, never mind all the evidence to the contrary.


GG / NAFH acknowledge that 4 graves at Sobibor have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt to exist and to contain human remains. So they are not stretching it to the moon and back. My doubt about the claimed existence and claimed contents of Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 is a reasonable doubt, and is not stretching it to the moon and back either. However, if you prefer, we can stick with the following definition of what constitutes proof; That which meets Dr. Shermer's, Skeptic Magazine’s and The Skeptics Society’s expressed and implied standards of proof.

Jeff, did RM's presentation at the start of this thread meet Dr. Shermer's, Skeptic Magazine’s and The Skeptics Society’s expressed and implied standards of proof?

Remember what you said earlier Jeff:

So, the grave exists. That's not faith, that's fact. How Muehlenkamp arrived at his figures doesn't matter to me... maybe Muehlenkamp is off. I find that irrelevant because it doesn't matter, the grave exists, regardless.


Jeff, how many metric tons of crushed human Bones can you prove are currently in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36.

Jeff, what is the proven volume of Chelmno grave # 3 / 36?

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby WendyO » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:31 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:LOL


Someone is very nervous.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:36 pm

WendyO wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:LOL


Someone is very nervous.

Someone thought it was funny that Jeffk asked you about your post about Sobibór after you'd had a little hissy-fit about discussion of GPR. Do keep 'em coming, chicken.

Everyone reading this thread can see the questions you keep dodging, 'cuz you're such a coward.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby WendyO » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:36 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:So you didn't start from a religious-dogmatic premise about Truth?


Yes he did. Jeff's knowledge is faith based, not science based.


So, the grave exists. That's not faith, that's fact. How Muehlenkamp arrived at his figures doesn't matter to me... maybe Muehlenkamp is off. I find that irrelevant because it doesn't matter, the grave exists, regardless.


Sorry Jeff, that was a statement of faith, not fact. You're deceiving yourself again. If it's not a statement of faith, then

How many metric tons of crushed human Bones can you prove are currently in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36.

What is the proven volume of Chelmno grave # 3 / 36?

And when I say prove or proof, I mean with the same standard as used in American courts, IOW beyond a reasonable doubt.


Just so we're clear:
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/beyond+a+reasonable+doubt

The key is this:
"If the jurors or judge have no doubt as to the defendant's guilt, or if their only doubts are unreasonable doubts, then the prosecutor has proven the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and the defendant should be pronounced guilty.
The term connotes that evidence establishes a particular point to a moral certainty and that it is beyond dispute that any reasonable alternative is possible. It does not mean that no doubt exists as to the accused's guilt, but only that no Reasonable Doubt is possible from the evidence presented."

So, in other words, if I lure someone to a house and murder them, then burn the body and the evidence is this:

1) People saw me do it.
2) I wrote to a co-conspirator and this documentation details the murder weapon, including ways to make it work better.
3) People saw me burn the body.
4) I left the device I used to burn the body and investigators found it later.
5) I actually left a trail from where I picked the victim up and where I transported the victim to.
6) Investigators find where I dumped the ash and bone fragments.

Then where is the reasonable doubt?


Don't be so stupid Jeff. Remember what you said earlier:

So, the grave exists. That's not faith, that's fact. How Muehlenkamp arrived at his figures doesn't matter to me... maybe Muehlenkamp is off. I find that irrelevant because it doesn't matter, the grave exists.


Jeff, did RM's presentation at the start of this thread meet MS's, Skeptic Magazine’s and The Skeptics Society’s expressed and implied standards of proof? Did it meet the same standard as used in American courts - IOW beyond a reasonable doubt? Did it meet the same standards as used in German courts?

Jeff, how many metric tons of crushed human Bones can you prove are currently in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36? Is it more than 10 or less than 10?

Jeff, what is the proven volume of Chelmno grave # 3 / 36? Is it more than 10 cubic meters or less than 10?

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:27 pm

WendyO wrote:Don't be so stupid Jeff. Remember what you said earlier:


Don't be such a tool, Wendy. Deniers TALK about "beyond a reasonable doubt" like it's some sort of sacred talisman but they don't bother to actually say what it is. I did and I gave an example.
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby WendyO » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:28 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Time's up. Did Shermer certify these findings?


Obviously he didn't. Some fool callled Greg Gerdes made this challenge that required Michael Shermer to certify document, however this Greg Gerdes fellow, forgot to ever contact Michael Shermer to ask him if he would do this. Pretty stupid right?

As you know, holocaust deniers aren't exactly the "sharpest knife in the drawer" when it comes to sorting out evidence....so they make stuff up, like this silly non existent challenge.


A challenge that RM agreed to. And GG didn't have to contact MS, because RM did.

Roberto Muehlenkamp:

If this is what it takes to satisfy the NAFCASH challenge requirements, please say so, Mr. Gerdes... I shall contact Mr. Shermer right away.

http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=73168&page=100


BTW, if the "non existent challenge" really is "non existent", then why is GG so eager to defend it in a court of law? And why are the real deniers so afraid to call his bluff? Isn't RM an attorney?

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby WendyO » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:30 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:Don't be so stupid Jeff. Remember what you said earlier:


Don't be such a tool, Wendy. Deniers TALK about "beyond a reasonable doubt" like it's some sort of sacred talisman but they don't bother to actually say what it is. I did and I gave an example.


Don't be so stupid Jeff. Remember what you said earlier:

So, the grave exists. That's not faith, that's fact. How Muehlenkamp arrived at his figures doesn't matter to me... maybe Muehlenkamp is off. I find that irrelevant because it doesn't matter, the grave exists.


Jeff, did RM's presentation at the start of this thread meet MS's, Skeptic Magazine’s and The Skeptics Society’s expressed and implied standards of proof? Did it meet the same standard as used in American courts - IOW beyond a reasonable doubt? Did it meet the same standards as used in German courts?

Jeff, how many metric tons of crushed human Bones can you prove are currently in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36? Is it more than 10 or less than 10?

Jeff, what is the proven volume of Chelmno grave # 3 / 36? Is it more than 10 cubic meters or less than 10?

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:47 pm

WendyO wrote:Jeff, did RM's presentation at the start of this thread meet MS's, Skeptic Magazine’s and The Skeptics Society’s expressed and implied standards of proof? Did it meet the same standard as used in American courts - IOW beyond a reasonable doubt? Did it meet the same standards as used in German courts?


What sort of twisted crap is that?

Look, Michael Shermer wants nothing to do with Gerdes the putz:

>> From: Michael Shermer <mshermer@skeptic.com>
>> To: Guadalupe Salcedo <cortagravatas@yahoo.com>
>> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 2:59 PM
>> Subject: Re: Skeptics Society Forum and the “National Association of Forensic Historians”
>>
>> Wow, Roberto, that's a perfect response. Thank you. It will take me some time to go through all those links and catch up on the scholarship in this area that I have been remiss from for the past decade. As for Gerdes, is there any response I can give that would not just trigger a barrage of invective from him? If, for example, I provided him with all the links you just sent me, and said "here are the mass graves, here are the bodies, remains, and ashes..." wouldn't he just respond as you suggest that this does not constitute proof? Like the creationists, there is no evidence that will ever convince them. Right? I can respond, but what do you suggest in order to avoid an endless parade of invective from him?
>>
>> Michael

WendyO wrote:Jeff, how many metric tons of crushed human Bones can you prove are currently in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36? Is it more than 10 or less than 10?


Check Roberto's math.
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:50 pm

WendyO wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:Don't be so stupid Jeff. Remember what you said earlier:


Don't be such a tool, Wendy. Deniers TALK about "beyond a reasonable doubt" like it's some sort of sacred talisman but they don't bother to actually say what it is. I did and I gave an example.


Don't be so stupid Jeff. Remember what you said earlier:

So, the grave exists. That's not faith, that's fact. How Muehlenkamp arrived at his figures doesn't matter to me... maybe Muehlenkamp is off. I find that irrelevant because it doesn't matter, the grave exists.


Jeff, did RM's presentation at the start of this thread meet MS's, Skeptic Magazine’s and The Skeptics Society’s expressed and implied standards of proof? Did it meet the same standard as used in American courts - IOW beyond a reasonable doubt? Did it meet the same standards as used in German courts?

Jeff, how many metric tons of crushed human Bones can you prove are currently in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36? Is it more than 10 or less than 10?

Jeff, what is the proven volume of Chelmno grave # 3 / 36? Is it more than 10 cubic meters or less than 10?



Don't be such a tool, Wendy. Deniers TALK about "beyond a reasonable doubt" like it's some sort of sacred talisman but they don't bother to actually say what it is. I did and I gave an example.

WendyO, I've told you, I'm not answering your questions anymore. Answer mine.
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
Adolf Hitler
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:52 pm

Shermer: "these deniers certainly have their work cut out for them denying evidence in the form of actual bodies and bones"; "In reading your email it sounds like the mass graves at these camps have been excavated and found full of human remains, so what controversy is there?"
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:57 pm

WendyO wrote: Jeff, did RM's presentation at the start of this thread meet MS's, Skeptic Magazine’s and The Skeptics Society’s expressed and implied standards of proof?
Jeff is not an agent or representative of Michael Shermer or the Skeptic Society and thus cannot say one way or the other. However, the point is moot as there never was a viable NAFCASH Challenge.

As you, Wendy, the holocaust denier, have recently proved to us, Greg Gerdes entered into misleading and deceptive conduct by :

1) Falsely claiming there was an entity called the The National Association of Forensic Historians (TM)

2) Deceptively adding a trademark registration sign, when no such trademark existed.

3) Issuing a public contract whereas the non existing "NAFH" would pay $75,000 consideration for the performance of supplying information, yet no such entity ever existed, to pay the offered consideration.

4) Deceptively, in express wording, indicated Dr Michael Shermer would be the judge, with clear knowledge that was not true and deceptive.

5) Implying that the non-existent NAFH had knowledge of Dr Shermer's express and implied standards of proof, without contacting Dr Shermer to find what those actually were.

Subsequent to this, a concerned member of the public, Roberto Muehlenkamp contacted Dr Shermer and discovered that the NAFHCASH Challenge was not a legally valid contract. Mr Muehlenkamp has prepared answers and is thus ready for a future time if a valid Challenge is ever offered.


Wendy, the holocaust denier, can now make the NAFHCASH Challenge effective at law.
You state you have been in contact with Greg Gerdes, have sent him emails and so on. You can simply request that Greg Gerdes reissues the Challenge in his own name and accepts liability to pay the consideration offered in the publicly offered contract and pre-offer evidence that Greg Gerdes can meet this liability. Secondly that a US judge, is nominated to judge the evidence supplied by applicants, accepting the contract's offer, according to USA civil law standards.

So Wendy, the ball is now in your and Greg Gerde's court. Contact Greg Gerdes and let us know what his response is.
:D

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:14 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:...

WendyO wrote:Jeff, how many metric tons of crushed human Bones can you prove are currently in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36? Is it more than 10 or less than 10?


Check Roberto's math.

 
Spoiler:



:scratch:


:banghead:


:unsure:







 
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:28 am

:lol:
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:31 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Jeff is not an agent or representative of Michael Shermer or the Skeptic Society and thus cannot say one way or the other.


Thank God you said it......I'm convinced that Wendy thinks I am!!!!
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
Adolf Hitler
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:46 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Thank God you said it......I'm convinced that Wendy thinks I am!!!!
Well I think the real fun aim here is to let Roberto take home $75,000 in winnings. He's already done the work.

Sadly, Wendy Gerdes will chicken out and never prepare a legally effective Challenge, for precisely that reason.
The Wendy Gerdes Challenge.jpg
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:49 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: . . . Sadly, Wendy Gerdes will chicken out . . .

OK, WendyO now has a long list of questions, going back a couple of days, to answer. Will she finally reply - or is she going to keep being a

Image
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby WendyO » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:18 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
WendyO wrote: Jeff, did RM's presentation at the start of this thread meet MS's, Skeptic Magazine’s and The Skeptics Society’s expressed and implied standards of proof?
Jeff is not an agent or representative of Michael Shermer or the Skeptic Society and thus cannot say one way or the other. However, the point is moot as there never was a viable NAFCASH Challenge.

As you, Wendy, the holocaust denier, have recently proved to us, Greg Gerdes entered into misleading and deceptive conduct by :

1) Falsely claiming there was an entity called the The National Association of Forensic Historians (TM)

2) Deceptively adding a trademark registration sign, when no such trademark existed.

3) Issuing a public contract whereas the non existing "NAFH" would pay $75,000 consideration for the performance of supplying information, yet no such entity ever existed, to pay the offered consideration.

4) Deceptively, in express wording, indicated Dr Michael Shermer would be the judge, with clear knowledge that was not true and deceptive.

5) Implying that the non-existent NAFH had knowledge of Dr Shermer's express and implied standards of proof, without contacting Dr Shermer to find what those actually were.

Subsequent to this, a concerned member of the public, Roberto Muehlenkamp contacted Dr Shermer and discovered that the NAFHCASH Challenge was not a legally valid contract. Mr Muehlenkamp has prepared answers and is thus ready for a future time if a valid Challenge is ever offered.


Wendy, the holocaust denier, can now make the NAFHCASH Challenge effective at law.
You state you have been in contact with Greg Gerdes, have sent him emails and so on. You can simply request that Greg Gerdes reissues the Challenge in his own name and accepts liability to pay the consideration offered in the publicly offered contract and pre-offer evidence that Greg Gerdes can meet this liability. Secondly that a US judge, is nominated to judge the evidence supplied by applicants, accepting the contract's offer, according to USA civil law standards.

So Wendy, the ball is now in your and Greg Gerde's court. Contact Greg Gerdes and let us know what his response is.
:D


:lol:

Only someone who is terrified of GG would spit out so many lies and pretend that the challenge is not "effective at law."

If all you say about GG / NAFH is true, then you could easily sue him / them for fraud and easily win. But the fact that you don't is proof that you're a liar and a chicken. The fact that RM doesn't is proof of the same.
Last edited by WendyO on Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby WendyO » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:25 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:Don't be so stupid Jeff. Remember what you said earlier:


Don't be such a tool, Wendy. Deniers TALK about "beyond a reasonable doubt" like it's some sort of sacred talisman but they don't bother to actually say what it is. I did and I gave an example.


Don't be so stupid Jeff. Remember what you said earlier:

So, the grave exists. That's not faith, that's fact. How Muehlenkamp arrived at his figures doesn't matter to me... maybe Muehlenkamp is off. I find that irrelevant because it doesn't matter, the grave exists.


Jeff, did RM's presentation at the start of this thread meet MS's, Skeptic Magazine’s and The Skeptics Society’s expressed and implied standards of proof? Did it meet the same standard as used in American courts - IOW beyond a reasonable doubt? Did it meet the same standards as used in German courts?

Jeff, how many metric tons of crushed human Bones can you prove are currently in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36? Is it more than 10 or less than 10?

Jeff, what is the proven volume of Chelmno grave # 3 / 36? Is it more than 10 cubic meters or less than 10?



Don't be such a tool, Wendy. Deniers TALK about "beyond a reasonable doubt" like it's some sort of sacred talisman but they don't bother to actually say what it is. I did and I gave an example.

WendyO, I've told you, I'm not answering your questions anymore. Answer mine.


Yes Jeff, I'm sure you're too busy trying to find your you-know-what's to answer questions that you can't answer lest your blind faith that Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 exists is shattered.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:35 am

WendyO wrote:Only someone who is terrified of GG would spit out so many lies and pretend that the challenge is not "effective at law."

If all you say about GG / NAFH is true, then you could easily sue him / them for fraud and easily win. But the fact that you don't is proof that you're a liar and a chicken. The fact that RM doesn't is proof of the same.

We get it. You are unable to muster a reply to Matthew Ellard's questions. Do carry on, you're amusing as hell.
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