My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

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Roberto Muehlenkamp
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My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Roberto Muehlenkamp » Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:16 am

Opening statement:

The following information is being presented as proof that alleged - Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 - contains the remains of at least 19 bodies, in accordance with - The National Association of Forensic Historians TM grave numbering system, which can be seen in this webpage here:

http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php?p= ... count=2629

Table

The above table shows an estimative calculation of the minimum amounts of human cremation remains (ashes, bone fragments, teeth or tooth meal) that can be reasonably expected to be currently buried in the mass graves at the former Nazi extermination camp of Chełmno, as well as a calculation, based on a reasonably estimated average weight of the deportees, of the number of corpses corresponding to these cremation remains. It is based on archaeological data and other evidence mentioned below, and on realistic, conservative assumptions complementing such data and other evidence where necessary. It can therefore, in my opinion, be considered proof of the numbers of human cremation remains and corresponding numbers of whole corpses stated therein, according to the standards of proof that would be applied by a German court of law, whereby a reasonable estimated minimum quantity is considered the (maximum) quantity that can be proven, even if there are good reasons to assume that the actual quantity is higher.

The table consists of the following columns:

Grave #: the number of the grave according to the report about Archaeological Research in the area of Chełmno extermination camp by Łucja Pawlicka-Nowak, which is transcribed in Łucja Pawlicka-Nowak (editor), Chelmno Witnesses Speak and on the website of the Museum of the former Extermination Camp in Chełmno-on-Ner (hereinafter called the "Chełmno Report").
(a) Volume m3: Volume in cubic meters of each grave, according to the Chełmno Report and my blog articles Mattogno on Chełmno Mass Graves and Mattogno on Chełmno Cremation (Part 3).

(b) Thereof occupied by corpses (m3): Part of each grave’s volume that is occupied by whole corpses. In the Chełmno Report there is no indication of whole corpses inside the graves, so this column is blank.

(c) = (a) - (b) = Thereof occupied by soil and cremation remains (m3): The part of each grave’s volume occupied by soil and cremation remains is the difference between each grave’s total volume and the part of that volume occupied by whole corpses. As no whole corpses were reported to exist in the Chełmno graves, this volume is equal to the each grave’s total volume.

(d) % of human cremation remains in soil: The concentration/density of human cremation remains contained in the soil of each grave is an essential parameter for establishing the amount of human cremation remains in each grave. The term "human cremation remains" is understood as meaning burned or unburned parts of human bodies left over from a not necessarily complete cremation process, crushed or uncrushed and including ashes, bone fragments, teeth (scorched or not) and tooth meal.

The Chełmno Report provides the following descriptions of human cremation remains contained in the graves:

Grave # 1 ("The first grave")
Under the humus, on the top of the ash layer, we found several unburned objects belonging to the victims.


Grave # 2 ("The second grave")
While the new layout was being uncovered, the existence of burned-out objects and ashes as well as crushed human bones both burned and unburned was stated.[…] Further part of the grave contains burned-out objects mixed with inclusions of ash and bonemeal as well as lumps of burn waste and coke.[…] The northern segment of the grave may probably be linked to different attempts to remove the corpses, burn them inside the graves or in primitive furnaces-hearths as well as to the process of crushing bones. In the other segment, bones ground into bonemeal can already be found.[…]


Grave # 3 ("The third grave")
The contents of the grave includes sandy soil with gravel, burn waste, ash, and crushed human bones.


Grave # 4 ("The fourth grave")
It is filled with gray sandy soil mixed with inclusions of burn waste, ash and crushed bones.


Grave # 5 ("The fifth grave")
The dimensions of the pits vary from 9x7.5 m to 15.50x8.50 m. They are filled with gray soil with a significant mixture of burn waste and crushed human bones.


One notes that the pits making up grave # 5 are described as containing a "significant" mixture of burn waste and crushed human bones in their soil, whereas no such precision is made as concerns the other four graves. This suggests that the concentration of human cremation remains in the first four graves is rather lower than in grave # 5 – high enough to be detected, but not so high as to be considered "significant".

As the report does not express in percentage terms what is meant by significant and not-so-significant admixtures of human remains in the soil, another archaeological source must be used to obtain some precision. In his Chełmno book (see my blog Mattogno on Chełmno Cremation (Part 3)), Revisionist writer Carlo Mattogno informs his readers that at the end of 1988 the Koniń District Museum sent to the Institute of Forensic Medicine of the Poznań Medical Academy a package containing four sacks of soil mixed with ashes and bone fragments collected in the area of the Chełmno camp, requesting an expert opinion about whether these ashes and bone fragments were of human origin and what their concentration in the soil was. The Institute of Forensic Medicine confirmed on 5 December 1988 that these remains were of human origin and that the concentration of human remains in all the material sent could be estimated at "some percent". Also not a precise quantification, but at least it allows for making some reasonable assumptions. "Some" is certainly more than one or two percent and certainly less than ten percent. It would not be far-fetched to assume that "some percent" could mean 5 % or more. However, in order to be on the safe side I’ll consider that it’s no more than 2.5 %. As the samples were examined in 1988, they must have been collected before, and as only the first grave and what was considered one of the camp’s crematoria had been investigated before 1988, the samples examined must have been from either of the two. The relatively low concentration of human remains in these samples is likely to be equal to the concentration found in the other three graves proper (i.e. the ones that, unlike the ash disposal pits that make up grave # 5, had originally been used to bury whole human corpses), regarding which the concentration of human remains in the soil is not pointed out as being "significant". Therefore, this was the concentration of human cremation remains that I considered to be present in Chełmno graves nos. 1, 2, 3 and 4.

In the pits that make up grave # 5, on the other hand, the concentration of burn waste and crushed human bones was found to be "significant". These pits, as mentioned in the blog Mattogno on Chełmno Mass Graves, had already been described in the report of the site investigation made in 1945 by Judge Włodzimierz Bednarz, where it is pointed out that "because of the soil’s fertilization by human ashes the vegetation in this area is much richer and its color is much greener". Even today, according to the Chełmno Report, "the flora on the pits is more luxuriant, making this stretch more visible on the surface". All this shows that the concentration of human cremation remains in grave # 5 is much higher than in graves nos. 1 to 4. How much higher cannot be determined on hand of the available data, so caution calls for assuming the lowest threshold of what can be considered a "significant" concentration, which I conservatively put at 10 %. The actual concentration of human remains in this grave is probably higher, but according to the rationale that a reasonably estimated minimum is a proven maximum, I considered this percentage as being the minimum density of human cremation remains in Chełmno grave # 5.

(e) = (c) * (d) = Volume of human cremation remains (m3): The volume in cubic meters of human cremation remains in each grave, calculated by multiplying the part of each grave’s volume containing soil and human cremation remains instead of whole corpses (which in the case of the Chełmno graves is the whole volume of each grave) with the (minimum) percentage thereof that can be considered to consist of human cremation remains, i.e. 2.5 % for graves nos. 1 to 4 and 10 % for grave # 5.

(f) = ( e) * 0.5 t/m3 (metric tons): The volume in cubic meters of human cremation remains, calculated in column (e), is converted into the weight of these cremation remains in metric tons considering the specific weight of human cremation remains, which according to Mattogno, Graf and Kues (MGK) is 0.5 g/cm3 (see, among others, my blog Mattogno, Graf & Kues on Aktion Reinhard(t) Cremation (4)).

The weight of human cremation remains in the Chełmno mass graves, calculated in the above table, is the following:

Grave #_Weight of human cremation remains in metric tons
1_15.11
2_66.68
3_52.20
4_68.25
5_204.80
Total_407.04

Readers who want the above weights in pounds need only introduce them into the online weight converter. 1 metric ton equals 2,204.6226218 pounds.

(g) Corpse residue factor: This factor represents the part of a corpse’s original volume and weight that is left over after cremation. Dividing the cremation residue weight in column (f) by this factor, one thus obtains the corpse’s original weight prior to cremation. According to MGK (see again the above-mentioned blog) the remains left behind by cremation would correspond to about 5 % of the corpses’ non-decomposed weight. This percentage, however, is too low for open-air cremation, in which corpses are not reduced as thoroughly as in a crematorium and the percentage of cremation residue is thus higher. According to a document from the British Environment Agency referred to by MGK (Environment Agency North West Region Area. Extracts from Submission to Cumbria County Council’s Inquiry into the Foot and Mouth Crisis), section 5.2.4 on page 13), a typical pyre for 300 cows at the time of the British Foot & Mouth Disease Crisis in 2001 could leave 15 tons of carcass ash and 45 tons of other ash to be disposed of. Assuming that each cow weighed 500 kg (as is done in the article CBA of Foot and Mouth Disease Control Strategies: Environmental Impacts by Paul Watkiss and Alison Smith, footnote 7 on page 4), the original weight of carcasses burned on such a pyre was 150 tons, i.e. the carcass ash amounted to 10 % of the original carcass weight. I therefore considered a corpse residue factor of 10 % instead of MGK’s 5 %. Note that this assumption, besides being based on empirical data from cremation under comparable circumstances, leads to a much lower life or pre-cremation weight corresponding to a given weight of cremation remains than the residue percentage considered by MGK, and therefore to a lower number of corpses whose cremation is considered to have produced these cremation remains.

(h) = (f)÷(g) * 1,000 = Pre-cremation weight of cremated corpses (kg): Dividing the cremation residue weight in columns (f) by the corpse residue factor in column (g), one obtains the pre-cremation weight of fresh corpses in metric tons. Multiplying the result of this division by 1,000 yields the same corpses’ weight in kg.

(i) = Average weight of corpse (kg):

The average life weight of a deportee murdered at Chełmno extermination camp was calculated as being 34 kg, see the blogs Mattogno on Chełmno Cremation (Part 2) and Belzec Mass Graves and Archaeology: My Response to Carlo Mattogno (4,1). In these blogs I also explain why the average weight considered by Mattogno in his Chełmno book (45 kg) is too high.

(j) = (h)÷(i) = Number of corpses reduced to cremation remains: The number that results from dividing the total pre-cremation weight of the corpses in column (h) by the average weight of corpses in column (i). As no whole corpses in the Chełmno mass graves have been reported, this is also the total number of victims whose remains can be proven to currently lie in the mass graves at Chełmno.

The numbers are the following:

Grave #_Number of victims whose remains currently lie in grave
1_4,445
2_19,610
3_15,353
4_20,074
5_60,235
Total_119,717

Grave # 3 is the grave referred to as Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 on the webpage under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php?p= ... count=2629 (it reads "3/35" there but the author obviously meant to say "3/36").

This grave has been proven to contain the remains of at least 15,353 human bodies. It has thus been proven to contain the remains of at least 19 bodies.


Closing statement:

The preceding information was presented as proof that alleged - Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 - contains the remains of at least 19 bodies in my attempt to lay claim to - The National Association of Forensic Historians TM - N.A.F.H. - Crime Scene Investigation Challenge TM - $1,000.00 reward for said grave.

Michael Shermer now has 2 months from today - 15.06.2012 - to explicitly and legally certify that he endorses said posted proof. Michael Shermer can explicitly and legally endorse said posted proof by contacting, via email, Greg Gerdes, President of - The National Association of Forensic Historians TM (Contact information can be found at the bottom of their website: http://www.nafcash.com) and making the following statement to Greg Gerdes:

I, Michael Shermer, acting as sole appointed arbiter of - The National Association of Forensic Historians TM - N.A.F.H. - Crime Scene Investigation Challenge TM, do hereby explicitly and legally certify that I categorically endorse the information in - Roberto Muehlenkamp's - My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs - thread on the Skeptics Society’s forum, as meeting my own, Skeptic Magazine’s and the Skeptics Society’s expressed and implied standards of proof, and that - Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 - does in fact contain the remains of at least 19 bodies. Furthermore, I will publish this certification / endorsement in the next issue of Skeptic Magazine.

(Note: What is to be explicitly and legally certified / endorsed by Michael Shermer is not just all the information that is sandwiched between my opening and closing statements, but also my answers to - The N.A.F.H.’s - C.S.I. / Alleged “Mass Graves” Questionnaire - for this alleged mass grave. (Said questionnaire can be found here: http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6927 )

And my answers for this alleged mass grave are: the answers linked to here (Page 2).

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Chester » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:36 pm

Do you think Shermer's going to back your histrionics? He's scared of what Gerdes will do to his reputation. I've read Gerdes, he's like a pit bull.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Nessie » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:47 pm

Chester wrote:Do you think Shermer's going to back your histrionics? He's scared of what Gerdes will do to his reputation. I've read Gerdes, he's like a pit bull.


I've read Gerdes as well. It is hard to imagine what it must be like to live a life so full of hatred and bile. He comes over as a very nasty piece of work who, short of strong arguments uses taunting and abuse to try and bolster his case.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Chester » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:03 pm

Nessie wrote:I've read Gerdes as well. It is hard to imagine what it must be like to live a life so full of hatred and bile. He comes over as a very nasty piece of work who, short of strong arguments uses taunting and abuse to try and bolster his case.


Maybe he got one of your playbooks and is treating you to your own medicine. Or maybe he's like me and hates liars.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Nessie » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:31 pm

Chester wrote:
Nessie wrote:I've read Gerdes as well. It is hard to imagine what it must be like to live a life so full of hatred and bile. He comes over as a very nasty piece of work who, short of strong arguments uses taunting and abuse to try and bolster his case.


Maybe he got one of your playbooks and is treating you to your own medicine. Or maybe he's like me and hates liars.


I have never had a discussion with him. I am not abusive like he is. Going by what he has written and your claims about physical evidence, neither of you are very good or reliable at finding liars.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Chester » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:59 pm

Nessie wrote:
Chester wrote:
Nessie wrote:I've read Gerdes as well. It is hard to imagine what it must be like to live a life so full of hatred and bile. He comes over as a very nasty piece of work who, short of strong arguments uses taunting and abuse to try and bolster his case.


Maybe he got one of your playbooks and is treating you to your own medicine. Or maybe he's like me and hates liars.


I have never had a discussion with him. I am not abusive like he is. Going by what he has written and your claims about physical evidence, neither of you are very good or reliable at finding liars.


I look for physical proof. In that effort I stumble on liars along the road and kick them to the curb so they don't trip up the people following me. Lead, follow or get out of the way.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Monster » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:05 pm

This Gerdes feller seems like a total douche.

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=4951&start=90

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Roberto Muehlenkamp » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:52 pm

Chester wrote:Do you think Shermer's going to back your histrionics? He's scared of what Gerdes will do to his reputation. I've read Gerdes, he's like a pit bull.


More like a chimp, actually. And that might be considered an insult to the animal, if you look at Gerdes' mug. Gerdes has essentially two acts. One is producing irrelevant "challenges" and questionnaires while dodging challenges that are sent his way and dodging about every question he is asked. The other is ignoring his opponent's arguments and repeating his own BS over and over again, copy and paste, obviously in order to bore his opponent away. Gerdes is a compulsive liar and a coward with a big foul mouth. Even the folks at VNN got tired of him and confined him to their "Tard Corral", as the webmaster informed me. The only reputation Gerdes would be capable of ruining, if he had any to start with, is his own. I've had enough discussions with Gerdes to know what I'm talking about. Readers interested in the figure are invited to look up the HC blogs labeled Greg Gerdes.

So if Shermer is not interested in my "histrionics" (against which Chester doesn't seem to have any arguments), it's certainly not because he's scared of Gerdes. It's because he considers it below his standing to address anything coming from or related to someone like Gerdes.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Chester » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:32 pm

Roberto Muehlenkamp wrote:
Chester wrote:Do you think Shermer's going to back your histrionics? He's scared of what Gerdes will do to his reputation. I've read Gerdes, he's like a pit bull.


More like a chimp, actually. And that might be considered an insult to the animal, if you look at Gerdes' mug. Gerdes has essentially two acts. One is producing irrelevant "challenges" and questionnaires while dodging challenges that are sent his way and dodging about every question he is asked. The other is ignoring his opponent's arguments and repeating his own BS over and over again, copy and paste, obviously in order to bore his opponent away.Gerdes is a compulsive liar and a coward with a big foul mouth. Even the folks at VNN got tired of him and confined him to their "Tard Corral", as the webmaster informed me. The only reputation Gerdes would be capable of ruining, if he had any to start with, is his own. I've had enough discussions with Gerdes to know what I'm talking about. Readers interested in the figure are invited to look up the HC blogs labeled Greg Gerdes.

So if Shermer is not interested in my "histrionics" (against which Chester doesn't seem to have any arguments), it's certainly not because he's scared of Gerdes. It's because he considers it below his standing to address anything coming from or related to someone like Gerdes.


Between you and me, If I can get you to fly off the handle like that what do you think Berg can get you to say?
I don't read your stuff - it puts me to sleep. You're too much like Lemmy - long on the information but short on impact. Short sweet sentences packed with meaning is the sign of a person who's familiar with his subject.

All I said was that Gerdes was a pit bull and look at the response from Roberto. Precious.
If memory serves, didn't Gredes ask for just one tooth? Thanks for the mug shot! Funny.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Roberto Muehlenkamp » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:57 pm

Chester wrote:
Roberto Muehlenkamp wrote:Do you think Shermer's going to back your histrionics? He's scared of what Gerdes will do to his reputation. I've read Gerdes, he's like a pit bull.

More like a chimp, actually. And that might be considered an insult to the animal, if you look at Gerdes' mug. Gerdes has essentially two acts. One is producing irrelevant "challenges" and questionnaires while dodging challenges that are sent his way and dodging about every question he is asked. The other is ignoring his opponent's arguments and repeating his own BS over and over again, copy and paste, obviously in order to bore his opponent away.Gerdes is a compulsive liar and a coward with a big foul mouth. Even the folks at VNN got tired of him and confined him to their "Tard Corral", as the webmaster informed me. The only reputation Gerdes would be capable of ruining, if he had any to start with, is his own. I've had enough discussions with Gerdes to know what I'm talking about. Readers interested in the figure are invited to look up the HC blogs labeled Greg Gerdes.

So if Shermer is not interested in my "histrionics" (against which Chester doesn't seem to have any arguments), it's certainly not because he's scared of Gerdes. It's because he considers it below his standing to address anything coming from or related to someone like Gerdes.


Between you and me, If I can get you to fly off the handle like that what do you think Berg can get you to say?


You seem to have delusions of adequacy. I just took advantage of your remark to give our readers some basic information about GG.

Chester wrote:I don't read your stuff - it puts me to sleep. You're too much like Lemmy - long on the information but short on impact. Short sweet sentences packed with meaning is the sign of a person who's familiar with his subject.


Your kind of blather is the sign of a person without arguments fishing for pretexts to avoid discussion.

Chester wrote:All I said was that Gerdes was a pit bull and look at the response from Roberto. Precious.


See above.

Chester wrote:If memory serves, didn't Gredes ask for just one tooth? Thanks for the mug shot! Funny.


I don't think the "pitbull" will appreciate this joke, assuming he manages to make the link.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Lemmy Caution » Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:51 pm

Long on information and short on "impact" is a problem? I thought that this was a discussion forum, and in this part of it, a discussion forum focused on a complex topic that can't be explored with one liners. We're not running for office here - or even mounting agit-prop campaigns or PR efforts, I had thought, but engaging in discussions. Or maybe not? Maybe one of us imagines he is clipping off bold slogans to lead a grand army of "the people following" him, not a one of these followers in evidence in here these days . . .
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:00 pm

Roberto Muehlenkamp wrote:Opening statement:

The following information is being presented as proof that alleged - Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 - contains the remains of at least 19 bodies, in accordance with - The National Association of Forensic Historians TM grave numbering system, which can be seen in this webpage here:

http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php?p= ... count=2629

.......

Michael Shermer now has 2 months from today - 15.06.2012 - to explicitly and legally certify that he endorses said posted proof. Michael Shermer can explicitly and legally endorse said posted proof by contacting, via email, Greg Gerdes, President of - The National Association of Forensic Historians TM (Contact information can be found at the bottom of their website: http://www.nafcash.com) and making the following statement to Greg Gerdes:

I, Michael Shermer, acting as sole appointed arbiter of - The National Association of Forensic Historians TM - N.A.F.H. - Crime Scene Investigation Challenge TM, do hereby explicitly and legally certify that I categorically endorse the information in - Roberto Muehlenkamp's - My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs - thread on the Skeptics Society’s forum, as meeting my own, Skeptic Magazine’s and the Skeptics Society’s expressed and implied standards of proof, and that - Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 - does in fact contain the remains of at least 19 bodies. Furthermore, I will publish this certification / endorsement in the next issue of Skeptic Magazine.

(Note: What is to be explicitly and legally certified / endorsed by Michael Shermer is not just all the information that is sandwiched between my opening and closing statements, but also my answers to - The N.A.F.H.’s - C.S.I. / Alleged “Mass Graves” Questionnaire - for this alleged mass grave. (Said questionnaire can be found here: http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6927 )

And my answers for this alleged mass grave are: the answers linked to here (Page 2).


Time's up. Did Shermer certify these findings?
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:30 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Time's up. Did Shermer certify these findings?


Obviously he didn't. Some fool callled Greg Gerdes made this challenge that required Michael Shermer to certify document, however this Greg Gerdes fellow, forgot to ever contact Michael Shermer to ask him if he would do this. Pretty stupid right?

As you know, holocaust deniers aren't exactly the "sharpest knife in the drawer" when it comes to sorting out evidence....so they make stuff up, like this silly non existent challenge.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:53 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Time's up. Did Shermer certify these findings?


Obviously he didn't. Some fool callled Greg Gerdes made this challenge that required Michael Shermer to certify document, however this Greg Gerdes fellow, forgot to ever contact Michael Shermer to ask him if he would do this. Pretty stupid right?

As you know, holocaust deniers aren't exactly the "sharpest knife in the drawer" when it comes to sorting out evidence....so they make stuff up, like this silly non existent challenge.


If Greg Gerdes is stupid for issuing a silly non existent challenge, what does it say about Roberto Muehlenkamp for taking the time and effort into answering it?
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Roberto Muehlenkamp » Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:22 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Time's up. Did Shermer certify these findings?


Obviously he didn't. Some fool callled Greg Gerdes made this challenge that required Michael Shermer to certify document, however this Greg Gerdes fellow, forgot to ever contact Michael Shermer to ask him if he would do this. Pretty stupid right?

As you know, holocaust deniers aren't exactly the "sharpest knife in the drawer" when it comes to sorting out evidence....so they make stuff up, like this silly non existent challenge.


If Greg Gerdes is stupid for issuing a silly non existent challenge, what does it say about Roberto Muehlenkamp for taking the time and effort into answering it?


Roberto takes advantage of Gerdes' stupidity to provide some information that may be of interest to his readers, and to show that Gerdes' stupid "challenge" can be met quite easily.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Gord » Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:27 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:If Greg Gerdes is stupid for issuing a silly non existent challenge, what does it say about Roberto Muehlenkamp for taking the time and effort into answering it?

If nobody bothered to answer stupid questions, then stupid people might think the questions were unanswerable.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:01 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:If Greg Gerdes is stupid for issuing a silly non existent challenge, what does it say about Roberto Muehlenkamp for taking the time and effort into answering it?


Roberto is educating interested members, like myself on evidence concerning the holocaust. It helps us understand the errors and lies of holocaust deniers. That's the entire point of this sub-forum.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Monster » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:30 pm

Gord wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:If Greg Gerdes is stupid for issuing a silly non existent challenge, what does it say about Roberto Muehlenkamp for taking the time and effort into answering it?

If nobody bothered to answer stupid questions, then stupid people might think the questions were unanswerable.

There are many precedents for that. Creationists use "you didn't address this particular argument I made, thus you don't disagree with it" during debates. It's tiresome.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:53 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:If Greg Gerdes is stupid for issuing a silly non existent challenge, what does it say about Roberto Muehlenkamp for taking the time and effort into answering it?


Roberto is educating interested members, like myself on evidence concerning the holocaust. It helps us understand the errors and lies of holocaust deniers. That's the entire point of this sub-forum.


If that is what Roberto intended then that is what Roberto should have done instead of playing along with--what you call--a "silly non existent challenge." Isn't it possible that Michael Shermer has certified Robero's work by sending an email to Greg Gerdes saying so? We wouldn't know until the next issue of Skeptic magazine is out, according to Roberto's understanding of the silly nonexistent rules of the silly non existent challenge.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Roberto Muehlenkamp » Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:06 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:If Greg Gerdes is stupid for issuing a silly non existent challenge, what does it say about Roberto Muehlenkamp for taking the time and effort into answering it?


Roberto is educating interested members, like myself on evidence concerning the holocaust. It helps us understand the errors and lies of holocaust deniers. That's the entire point of this sub-forum.


If that is what Roberto intended then that is what Roberto should have done instead of playing along with--what you call--a "silly non existent challenge."


Is one playing along with a silly challenge by showing that it can be easily met and taking advantage of it to provide some information of interest? You've got some strange ideas, ma'am.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Isn't it possible that Michael Shermer has certified Robero's work by sending an email to Greg Gerdes saying so? We wouldn't know until the next issue of Skeptic magazine is out, according to Roberto's understanding of the silly nonexistent rules of the silly non existent challenge.


I don't know what the poet is trying to tell us, but I frankly doubt that Shermer cares about the "challenge", already for the simple reason that the chimp didn't ask him whether he wanted to be an arbiter before nominating him as such. Besides, someone of Shermer's standing probably considers it below himself to spend a single line on a "challenge" issued by something like this.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:51 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote: If that is what Roberto intended then that is what Roberto should have done instead of playing along with--what you call--a "silly non existent challenge."
Roberto has offered us general information concerning the holocaust in addition to showing us the subterfuge in Greg Gerde's claim. Didn't you know that? You should do some more basic reading before posting again

Mary Q Contrary wrote: Isn't it possible that Michael Shermer has certified Robero's work by sending an email to Greg Gerdes saying so?
If Greg Gerdes hasn't asked Mr Shermer and as Roberto has only posted his replies on this forum, so Mr Shermer has the potential to read Roberto's correct history, then the answer is no.

At no point has Mr Shermer ever been directly contacted by Greg Gerdes, asked to certify posts and agreed to do as such. You are living in some fantasy land. Michael Shermer does not post on this forum anyway and I don't think he actually reads this forum at all (but I don't know).

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:31 pm

Roberto Muehlenkamp wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:If Greg Gerdes is stupid for issuing a silly non existent challenge, what does it say about Roberto Muehlenkamp for taking the time and effort into answering it?


Roberto is educating interested members, like myself on evidence concerning the holocaust. It helps us understand the errors and lies of holocaust deniers. That's the entire point of this sub-forum.


If that is what Roberto intended then that is what Roberto should have done instead of playing along with--what you call--a "silly non existent challenge."


Is one playing along with a silly challenge by showing that it can be easily met and taking advantage of it to provide some information of interest? You've got some strange ideas, ma'am.


It was you who brought a challenge issued on a Nazi website to the attention of this forum. It was you who answered the challenge from said Nazi website on this forum. It was you who concluded your answer by saying "Michael Shermer now has 2 months from today - 15.06.2012 - to explicitly and legally certify that he endorses said posted proof." Your actions lead reasonable readers to conclude that you were participating in what you considered to be a legitimate contest and were attempting to, as you put it "to lay claim to - The National Association of Forensic Historians TM - N.A.F.H. - Crime Scene Investigation Challenge TM - $1,000.00 reward for said grave."

Roberto Muehlenkamp wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Isn't it possible that Michael Shermer has certified Robero's work by sending an email to Greg Gerdes saying so? We wouldn't know until the next issue of Skeptic magazine is out, according to Roberto's understanding of the silly nonexistent rules of the silly non existent challenge.


I don't know what the poet is trying to tell us, but I frankly doubt that Shermer cares about the "challenge", already for the simple reason that the chimp didn't ask him whether he wanted to be an arbiter before nominating him as such. Besides, someone of Shermer's standing probably considers it below himself to spend a single line on a "challenge" issued by something like this.


The poet is trying to tell us that Michael Shermer may have certified your findings but we don't know that he has because he has not announced it yet. I suspect that you are correct about Shermer not caring about this challenge. I do not believe that he is so arrogant as to dismiss a challenge merely because the person who issued the challenge is in dire need of dental implants and a Queer Eye for the Straight Guy makeover. I believe he will not answer the challenge because he doesn't have the time to participate in events in which he did not previously agree to participate. But this begs the question, why did you answer the stupid (as Matthew Ellard calls it) challenge in the way in which you did? Because now, if Shermer does not ceritfy your findings, it looks like he doesn't consider your findings sufficient.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Roberto Muehlenkamp » Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:54 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Roberto Muehlenkamp wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:If Greg Gerdes is stupid for issuing a silly non existent challenge, what does it say about Roberto Muehlenkamp for taking the time and effort into answering it?


Roberto is educating interested members, like myself on evidence concerning the holocaust. It helps us understand the errors and lies of holocaust deniers. That's the entire point of this sub-forum.


If that is what Roberto intended then that is what Roberto should have done instead of playing along with--what you call--a "silly non existent challenge."


Is one playing along with a silly challenge by showing that it can be easily met and taking advantage of it to provide some information of interest? You've got some strange ideas, ma'am.


It was you who brought a challenge issued on a Nazi website to the attention of this forum. It was you who answered the challenge from said Nazi website on this forum. It was you who concluded your answer by saying "Michael Shermer now has 2 months from today - 15.06.2012 - to explicitly and legally certify that he endorses said posted proof." Your actions lead reasonable readers to conclude that you were participating in what you considered to be a legitimate contest and were attempting to, as you put it "to lay claim to - The National Association of Forensic Historians TM - N.A.F.H. - Crime Scene Investigation Challenge TM - $1,000.00 reward for said grave."


I may be participating in a "contest", but that doesn't mean I consider it a legitimate one. The "National Association of Forensic Historians" doesn't exist. Greg Gerdes is the only "member" of that "association". And his "challenge" is nonsense. But I nevertheless took the opportunity to provide information and to show that the nonsensical "challenge" can be easily met. If you have a problem with that, I can't help you.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Roberto Muehlenkamp wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Isn't it possible that Michael Shermer has certified Robero's work by sending an email to Greg Gerdes saying so? We wouldn't know until the next issue of Skeptic magazine is out, according to Roberto's understanding of the silly nonexistent rules of the silly non existent challenge.


I don't know what the poet is trying to tell us, but I frankly doubt that Shermer cares about the "challenge", already for the simple reason that the chimp didn't ask him whether he wanted to be an arbiter before nominating him as such. Besides, someone of Shermer's standing probably considers it below himself to spend a single line on a "challenge" issued by something like this.


The poet is trying to tell us that Michael Shermer may have certified your findings but we don't know that he has because he has not announced it yet. I suspect that you are correct about Shermer not caring about this challenge. I do not believe that he is so arrogant as to dismiss a challenge merely because the person who issued the challenge is in dire need of dental implants and a Queer Eye for the Straight Guy makeover. I believe he will not answer the challenge because he doesn't have the time to participate in events in which he did not previously agree to participate.


Whatever.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:But this begs the question, why did you answer the stupid (as Matthew Ellard calls it) challenge in the way in which you did? Because now, if Shermer does not ceritfy your findings, it looks like he doesn't consider your findings sufficient.


Why, even you have concluded that this is probably not the reason.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Ponderer » Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:12 pm

Roberto Muehlenkamp has not been honest with Mr. Shermer.

I contacted the NAFH and learned that Muehlenkamp has not been complying with the NAFH's official posting rules and has been ineligible for 17 of the 18 reward submittals that he has posted here.

These are the rules that I recieved from the NAFH:

[quote]The National Association of Forensic Historians TM

OFFICIAL - N.A.F.H. - C.S.I. - POSTING RULES

* The following posting rules MUST be complied with TO THE LETTER *

* NOTE: You must post using your real / legal name *

* Thread Titles:

Each thread title for each fraudulently alleged “mass grave” MUST read like this (Fraudulently alleged Chelmno “grave” # 5 / 38 will be used as an example.):


My Chelmno Grave # 5 / 38 Proofs

NOTE: All posted information MUST coincide with the grave numbering system used by the N.A.F.H., which can be seen in this webpage here: http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php?p= ... count=2629


* Opening statement:

Each opening statement for each thread MUST read like this (Fraudulently alleged Chelmno “grave” # 5 / 38 will be used as an example.):

Opening statement:

The following information is being presented as proof that alleged - Chelmno grave # 5 / 38 - contains the remains of at least 19 bodies, in accordance with - The National Association of Forensic Historians TM grave numbering system, which can be seen in this webpage here: http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php?p= ... count=2629


NOTE: There MUST NOT be anything appearing before the opening statement and all links MUST work.

* Closing statement:

Each closing statement for each thread MUST read like this (Fraudulently alleged Chelmno “grave” # 5 / 38 will be used as an example.):

Closing statement:

The preceding information was presented as proof that alleged - Chelmno grave # 5 / 38 - contains the remains of at least 19 bodies in my attempt to lay claim to - The National Association of Forensic Historians TM - N.A.F.H. - Crime Scene Investigation Challenge TM - $1,000.00 reward for said grave.

Michael Shermer now has 2 months from today - INSERT POSTING DATE HERE - to explicitly and legally certify that he endorses said posted proof. Michael Shermer can explicitly and legally endorse said posted proof by contacting, via email, Greg Gerdes, President of - The National Association of Forensic Historians TM (Contact information can be found at the bottom of their website: http://www.nafcash.com ) and making the following statement to Greg Gerdes:

I, Michael Shermer, acting as sole appointed arbiter of - The National Association of Forensic Historians TM - N.A.F.H. - Crime Scene Investigation Challenge TM, do hereby explicitly and legally certify that I categorically endorse the information in - INSERT POSTER’S / CLAIMANT’S NAME HERE - My Chelmno Grave # 5 / 38 Proofs - thread on the Skeptics Society’s forum, as meeting my own, Skeptic Magazine’s and the Skeptics Society’s expressed and implied standards of proof, and that - Chelmno grave # 5 / 38 - does in fact contain the remains of at least 19 bodies. Furthermore, I will publish this certification / endorsement in the next issue of Skeptic Magazine.

Note: What is to be explicitly and legally certified / endorsed by Michael Shermer is not just all the information that is sandwiched between my opening and closing statements, but also my answers to - The N.A.F.H.’s - C.S.I. / Alleged “Mass Graves” Questionnaire - for this alleged “mass grave.” (Said questionnaire can be found here: http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php? ... ost1383403 )
And my answers for this alleged “mass grave” are: A - ? B - ? C - ? D - ? E - ? F - ? G - ? H - ? I - ? J - ? K - ? L - ? M - ? N - ? O - ? P - ? by ? Q - ? R - ? S - ? T - ? U - ? V - ? W - ? X - ? Y - ? Z - ?
FYI - This is my __?__ “buried remains / mass grave proof” submitted to Michael Shermer for his endorsement. To date, __?__ of my submittals have been deemed ineligible for a reward due to my noncompliance with the official posting rules that I received from the N.A.F.H. prior to posting my alleged “proofs.” Regardless of eligibility status, __?__ of my submittals have been endorsed by Michael Shermer as meeting his own, Skeptic Magazine’s and the Skeptics Society’s expressed and implied standards of proof.

* * * * *

* NOTE: There are two - PREREQUISITES - that - MUST - be completed - BEFORE - any potential claimant can even attempt to lay claim to any of the rewards offered by the N.A.F.H., and those prerequisites are:

* PREREQUISITE # 1: You - MUST - email Michael Shermer the following question - VERBATIM and IN TOTO - the email MUST contain nothing more and nothing less:

Hello Michael,
You wrote in your book - Denying History - that your reasons for visiting Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka and other camps was to - “see for ourselves just what evidence there is at the camps” and to “take the opportunity to examine firsthand the claims” and to “apply the tools of science.” You also wrote that your investigations were conducted “like criminologists solving a crime” using “the same techniques used by geologists, paleontologists and archaeologists” and that the purpose for writing your book was to “show precisely, with solid evidence, how we know the holocaust happened.” Further, you wrote - “we think it is time to move beyond name calling and present the evidence” and “it is our belief that truth will always win out when the evidence is made available for all to see.” And most importantly, you wrote - “we must be forthright and honest about what we know and do not know about the holocaust” and “it is the duty of informed experts on a subject to share their knowledge” and “we cannot remain silent anymore.”
So Michael, would you please tell me: How many of the alleged “mass graves” of Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka can you prove contain the remains of at least 19 bodies?

* NOTE: You - MUST - forward your emailed question to the N.A.F.H. for verification.

* PREREQUISITE # 2: You - MUST - UNEQUIVOCALLY - complete the - ENTIRE - N.A.F.H. - C.S.I. / Alleged “Mass Graves” Questionnaire - which can be found here: http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php? ... ost1383403 - according to the instructions.

* NOTE: Providing any information other than what the questionnaire asks for is contrary to the explicitly specified instructions for completing said questionnaire and doing so will be deemed as providing an unequivocal answer. Also note that questions - B, G, J, M and the first half of P - MUST - be answered numerically to be considered unequivocal. Also - BE AWARE - that any question that is responded to by a potential claimant with a lie may result in the liar being disqualified from consideration for a reward. (This rule will be enforced at the N.A.F.H.‘s discretion.)

* NOTE: Failure to abide by the official posting rules - TO THE LETTER - will automatically disqualify any potential claimant from consideration for a reward. Only individuals may attempt to lay claim to the rewards and - only one attempt / posting per month is allowed. No payments will be made to any claimant unless and until Shermer’s certification / endorsement is published in Skeptic Magazine. All submittals - MUST - be confined to the ONE initial post and the opening and closing statements - MUST - sandwich all the initial posted “proof.” Failure to provide UNEQUIVOCAL answers to any and all questions that require answers in the submittal will also automatically disqualify any potential claimant from consideration for a reward. (Please note that potential claimants are entitled to contact the N.A.F.H. prior to posting their submittal and ask for an official determination on what answers are deemed “unequivocal” or not - and it is highly recommended that they do.) No editing is allowed. All potential claimants - MUST - contact the N.A.F.H. - via email - and inform the N.A.F.H. that they have posted their alleged “buried remains proofs” on Shermers forum - on the same day that the post is made.

* NOTE: Any aspersion made by a claimant - IN ANY POST - ANYWHERE IN THE SKEPTIC’S SOCIETY FORUM - regarding the N.A.F.H., the C.S.I. Challenge, its executor or its supporters that are not substantiated with verifiable facts when challenged to do so by the executor of the N.A.F.H.’s C.S.I. Challenge, will result in the offending claimant being deemed ineligible to recieve - ANY - reward amount offered by - The National Association of Forensic Historians TM - unless and until the facts are presented that substantiate said challenged aspersion or a retraction is made in the same thread that the offending aspersion was posted. (After all, for a person to attempt to lay claim to a reward while simultaneously making aspersions about the reward they’re trying to claim and those who offer it - is the ultimate in cowardice and hypocrisy.)

* NOTE: On only one day of each month - the 15th - will any attempts at laying claim to - The National Association of Forensic Historians TM - N.A.F.H. Crime Scene Investigation Challenge TM - posted on Shermer’s so-called “Skeptics” Society forum be considered eligible for the reward money. Any other claim / post submitted on any day other than the 15th of each month will automatically be invalid / disqualified and WILL NOT BE CONSIDERED ELIGIBLE - AND - only ONE submittal per month per claimant is allowed - AND - only ONE claim per month - The first qualified one posted on the 15th - will be eligible for a reward.

Muehlenkamp has even admitted his deceit here:

http://vnnforum.com/showpost.php?p=1401 ... count=2773

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Nessie » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:50 am

When I came across the challenge I thought 'I hope someone answers that' out of principle and to show it can be done. They way the challenge was worded and who the challenger is meant I knew it would never be successfully resolved as the challenge is clearly just a propaganda exercise to allow a claim of 'no one can answer it, so I am right to think there are no mass graves at Chelmno'. The appeal to Michael Shermer was clearly a means for the challenger to make sure the challenge is not answered to his satisfaction. Again that is to ensure he can continue to claim 'no one can answer it, so I am right to think there are no mass graves at Chelmno'.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Roberto Muehlenkamp » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:23 pm

Ponderer wrote:Roberto Muehlenkamp has not been honest with Mr. Shermer.

I contacted the NAFH and learned that Muehlenkamp has not been complying with the NAFH's official posting rules and has been ineligible for 17 of the 18 reward submittals that he has posted here.


Hi there, chimp.

Who do you think you are fooling with your "Ponderer" alias, when you stink of Greg Gerdes miles away?

If you have again changed your cowardly and imbecilic posting rules, just send me the latest version to my e-mail address (you know which it is), and I'll post the next submission in compliance with the latest version of your cowardly and imbecilic posting rules next 15 September.

What are you waiting for?

As we're at it, I see that your "Anders" handle has been banned from VNN, where you had earlier been restricted to the "Tard Corral". Looks like even your fellow "White" specimens want to see nothing of you.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Ponderer » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:59 pm

What are your answers Muehlenkamp?

FYI - This is my __?__ “buried remains / mass grave proof” submitted to Michael Shermer for his endorsement. To date, __?__ of my submittals have been deemed ineligible for a reward due to my noncompliance with the official posting rules that I received from the N.A.F.H. prior to posting my alleged “proofs.” Regardless of eligibility status, __?__ of my submittals have been endorsed by Michael Shermer as meeting his own, Skeptic Magazine’s and the Skeptics Society’s expressed and implied standards of proof.


http://vnnforum.com/showpost.php?p=1401 ... count=2773

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:31 pm

Ponderer wrote:Michael Shermer now has 2 months from today - INSERT POSTING DATE HERE - to explicitly and legally certify that he endorses said posted proof. Michael Shermer can explicitly and legally endorse said posted proof by contacting, via email, Greg Gerdes, President of - The National Association of Forensic Historians TM


So you're the idiot! Fantastic! So you are only accepting "applications" to your challenge, signed by Michael Shermer, who has never heard of the challenge.

No wonder the holocaust denier movement faded away. When I go to piss on Bradley Smith's grave in six months I will whisper "Bradley, there is a holocaust denier, even more stupid than you, still out there...."

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Pyrrho » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:58 pm

"Ponderer" has been banned. Previously banned user. See previous comments re: "cnote" et al.
For any forum questions or concerns please e-mail skepticforum@gmail.com or send a PM.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:57 am

Pyrrho wrote:"Ponderer" has been banned. Previously banned user. See previous comments re: "cnote" et al.


I can't believe these long term "nut cases" are still obsessed with supporting a cult that died out. They should join the Flat Earth Society if they want companionship, rather than bothering forums to seek attention.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:19 pm

And still no Michael Shermer validation. Will anybody with a professional reputation to uphold validate the "logic" of Roberto?
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Gord » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:51 pm

Why would Michael Shermer be interested in this stuff?
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Roberto Muehlenkamp » Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:44 pm

Shermer is interested in this stuff. What he isn't interested in is having any contact with someone as obnoxious as Greg Gerdes, who moreover appointed him "arbiter" without even asking him if he was interested in being one. See the e-mails copied below.

From: Michael Shermer <mshermer@skeptic.com>
To: Guadalupe Salcedo <cortagravatas@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: Skeptics Society Forum and the “National Association of Forensic Historians”

No, he has not contacted me. His email is treblinkafraud? That pretty much says it all.

Right now I'm dealing with the climate deniers and evolution deniers, so my plate is rather full, but I read through some of the materials you sent me and, well, these deniers certainly have their work cut out for them denying evidence in the form of actual bodies and bones.

Michael


On Feb 18, 2012, at 6:33 AM, Guadalupe Salcedo wrote:

> No, only Greg Gerdes can appoint you.
>
> He should have contacted you, told you that he wanted to appoint you as arbiter, and asked he if you would accept the appointment.
>
> Which he obviously did not.
>
> However, if you want I can write to Gerdes, tell him that you might be interested in being appointed as arbiter and ask him to contact you for this purpose.
>
> Or you can contact him yourself. His e-mail address is treblinkafraud@yahoo.com.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Roberto


> From: Michael Shermer <mshermer@skeptic.com>
> To: Guadalupe Salcedo <cortagravatas@yahoo.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 12:13 AM
> Subject: Re: Skeptics Society Forum and the “National Association of Forensic Historians”
>
> How can I act as "sole appointed arbiter of - The National Association of Forensic Historians TM - N.A.F.H. - Crime Scene Investigation Challenge TM" ??
>
>
> No one appointed me! And you can't appoint me, can you?
>
> Michael Shermer


> On Feb 17, 2012, at 9:49 AM, Guadalupe Salcedo wrote:
>
>> Michael,
>>
>> Thank you for your reply.
>>
>> Of course there is no evidence that will convince Greg Gerdes against his ideologically motivated beliefs. The guy is obviously a White Supremacist and a rabid anti-Semite. I'm told he is or was a member of the National Alliance. Facts don't interest him, especially if they go against his articles of faith.
>>
>> There is also nothing you can tell the fellow that would not just trigger a barrage of invective from him, for he has amply shown that he is a mentally unbalanced hysteric.
>>
>> What you can do is to help burst his "National Association of Forensic Historians" bubble, which is based on the conviction that no one will respond to his "challenge" and that, even if someone should respond, you won't bother to look at that person's submittal of proof. This would benefit whoever might otherwise be taken in by the claims on Gerdes' website, the way many people are taken in by charlatans not challenged. If you do what he expects you not do do, Gerdes won't be able to uphold his NAFH bluster. He might come up with something else, but the NAFH publicity act in its current form will be lost. I'm aware that Greg Gerdes is not the kind of person one wants to have any business with, but then, doesn’t that also apply to other charlatans whose falsehoods you have exposed?
>>
>> Therefore I ask you to have a look at my OP under viewtopic.php?f=39&t=17734.
>>
>> If my submittal should not strike you as reasonable proof that the mass grave in question contains a certain minimum amount of human remains, please let me know and tell me what you would consider to be such proof.
>>
>> If, on the other hand, you should find my submittal convincing, please consider endorsing it in the form required by Gerdes:
>>
>> "I, Michael Shermer, acting as sole appointed arbiter of - The National Association of Forensic Historians TM - N.A.F.H. - Crime Scene Investigation Challenge TM, do hereby explicitly and legally certify that I categorically endorse the information in – Roberto Muehlenkamp’s - My Chelmno Grave # 1 / 34 Proofs - thread on the Skeptics Society’s forum, as meeting my own, Skeptic Magazine’s and the Skeptics Society’s expressed and implied standards of proof, and that - Chelmno grave # 1 / 34 - does in fact contain the remains of at least 19 bodies. Furthermore, I will publish this certification / endorsement in the next issue of Skeptic Magazine."
>>
>> Take your time to weigh the possible consequences of making such statement. If you should decide against it despite accepting my proof as conclusive, please let me know what made you so decide.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Roberto


>> From: Michael Shermer <mshermer@skeptic.com>
>> To: Guadalupe Salcedo <cortagravatas@yahoo.com>
>> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 2:59 PM
>> Subject: Re: Skeptics Society Forum and the “National Association of Forensic Historians”
>>
>> Wow, Roberto, that's a perfect response. Thank you. It will take me some time to go through all those links and catch up on the scholarship in this area that I have been remiss from for the past decade. As for Gerdes, is there any response I can give that would not just trigger a barrage of invective from him? If, for example, I provided him with all the links you just sent me, and said "here are the mass graves, here are the bodies, remains, and ashes..." wouldn't he just respond as you suggest that this does not constitute proof? Like the creationists, there is no evidence that will ever convince them. Right? I can respond, but what do you suggest in order to avoid an endless parade of invective from him?
>>
>> Michael


>> On Feb 17, 2012, at 4:56 AM, Guadalupe Salcedo wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Michael,
>>>
>>> Thanks for your reply.
>>>
>>> Over the past decade much has become known, through the work of archaeologists, about the mass graves at Chełmno, Bełżec and Sobibór extermination camps.
>>>
>>> At Chelmno, archeological investigations in 2003/2004, led by Łucja Pawlicka Nowak, established the shape, size and contents of 5 large mass graves. The human remains found in these graves are only cremation remains, no whole bodies. You may read a description of these graves (as well as other important archaeological finds, including the remains of the fireplaces at which the victims’ corpses were burned, mostly after having been extracted from the graves) on the website of the Museum of the former Extermination Camp in Chełmno-on-Ner ( http://www.muzeum.com.pl/en/chelmno.htm).
>>>
>>> At Bełżec, archaeological investigations between 1997 and 1999, led by Prof. Andrzej Kola of Toruń University, found a total of 33 mass graves. Most of these graves contained only cremation remains, but 10 graves also contained human corpses in wax-fat transformation lying at the bottom below layers of cremation remains. The total volume of the graves identified has been estimated at 21,310 cubic meters. An archaeological report by Prof. Kola about his work at Bełżec has been published, and you may find excerpts from the English translation thereof on the “Holocaust Controversies” forum under the link http://holocaustcontroversies.yuku.com/ ... ass-graves .
>>>
>>> At Sobibór, the aforementioned Prof. Kola conducted investigations in 2001, the results of which were rendered in a report whose translation you find on the aforementioned forum under http://holocaustcontroversies.yuku.com/ ... amp--Sobib. Kola identified seven pits he considered mass graves. Three of these contain only human cremation remains, Kola having assumed (correctly) that they were only used to burn corpses but never for burial. The other four graves also contain human bodies in wax-fat transformation at the bottom, below layers of human cremation remains. Just like in the aforementioned Bełżec graves, the bodies lying at the graves’ bottoms were not extracted for cremation by the Nazis (perhaps because extraction was too difficult), and wax-fat transformation caused them to be preserved.
>>>
>>> Sobibór is currently being investigated by a team of Israeli and Polish archaeologists, who have published an article about their preliminary finds in the archaeological journal Present Pasts, Vol 1 (2009). The article is available online under http://presentpasts.info/index.php/pp/article/view/2/2 .
>>>
>>> Regarding Treblinka extermination camp, an ongoing investigation by British archaeologist Caroline Sturdy Colls has recently made the headlines. The archaeologist has written about her finds in a BBC News article available under http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16657363. Sturdy Colls’ preliminary finds and a leading Holocaust denier’s related claims are discussed in a blog article I published on the “Holocaust Controversies” blog site under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... gical.html .
>>>
>>> On that blog site I have extensively written about the mass graves at these extermination camp sites and refuted the related claims of Holocaust deniers. If you want an overview of what is currently known about the mass graves at Chełmno, you may find it in my blog article under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... raves.html. Regarding Bełżec, Sobibór and Treblinka, see the blog series starting under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... hardt.html.
>>>
>>> The essential parts of these two blog articles are included in Chapter 7 of the e-book publication «Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka. Holocaust Denial and Operation Reinhard. A Critique of the Falsehoods of Mattogno, Graf and Kues.», by Jonathan Harrison, Jason Myers, Sergey Romanov, Nicholas Terry and myself, which you can read and download under http://www.archive.org/details/BelzecSo ... .ACritique , among other sites. Dr. Nicholas Terry, one of this publication’s authors and a founding member of the “Holocaust Controversies” blog site, is a professional historian who teaches history at Exeter University in England (see that university’s page under http://humanities.exeter.ac.uk/history/ ... /teaching/). The other members, including myself, are volunteers who have been fighting Holocaust denial on the internet for some time. One of them is a former Holocaust denier who recognized that HD has no basis, like the late Jean-Claude Pressac.
>>>
>>> As to how Holocaust deniers deal with this archaeological evidence, there are essentially the following approaches:
>>>
>>> a) Trying to make believe that archaeological finds corroborate the HD claim whereby these camps were transit camps and not extermination camps, and the graves contain victims of the comparatively reduced mortality related to transporting to the Nazi-occupied Soviet territories the Jews known to have been taken to these camps. This is the approach of HD’s most intelligent and “reasonable” propagandists: Carlo Mattogno, Jürgen Graf and Thomas Kues.
>>>
>>> b) Claiming that the reports about archaeological mass grave finds have been manipulated. These claims, made deniers more divorced from reality than Mattogno, Graf and Kues, as usually based on the absence of photographs in archaeological reports of core samples or other finds whereby the size, shape and content of the mass graves was established.
>>>
>>> c) Publicity acts like those of Greg Gerdes (“president” of the “National Association of Forensic Historians” - http://nafcash.com/), who claims that he will pay $1,000 to whoever can provide proof that a certain grave contains the remains of at least 19 human bodies, provided that such proof is expressly endorsed by Michael Shermer in a certain form.
>>>
>>> Approach a) is the subject of the aforementioned critique and articles on the “Holocaust Controversies” blog site.
>>>
>>> Approach b) usually comes up on discussion forums, including the Skeptics Society Forum.
>>>
>>> Approach c) is the subject of my calculations (based on the contents of archaeological reports) that are rendered in the blog article under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... es-at.html, and of the proof submissions based on these calculations that I have posted or intend to post on the Skeptics Society Forum, in response to Gerdes’ “challenge”.
>>>
>>> My purpose in requesting your endorsement of these submissions, as I mentioned before, is not to earn any of Gerdes’ reward money (which he is unlikely to pay anyway). It is to put an end to Gerdes “National Association of Forensic Historians” publicity act.
>>>
>>> Please let me know what you intend to do about Greg Gerdes, who seems to be rather obsessed about you.
>>>
>>> Thanks for the Auschwitz link. I shall look it up as soon as I have time.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Roberto


>>> From: Michael Shermer <mshermer@skeptic.com>
>>> To: Guadalupe Salcedo <cortagravatas@yahoo.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 3:49 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Skeptics Society Forum and the “National Association of Forensic Historians”
>>>
>>> Roberto,
>>>
>>> Thanks for this note. I have not been following the Holocaust deniers for many years. In reading your email it sounds like the mass graves at these camps have been excavated and found full of human remains, so what controversy is there? Can you briefly summarize for me the state of the forensic evidence at these camps?
>>>
>>> BTW, if you have not seen this 6-part documentary series on Auschwitz it is well worth watching. They summarize lots of new evidence that has come forth in the past ten years of the Nazi crime at all these camps:
>>>
>>> http://www.pbs.org/auschwitz/about/transcripts.html
>>>
>>> Michael


The archaeological evidence I based my considerations on has been accepted by historians, by the way - and in the case of Sobibór also by the Munich Court of Assizes at the trial against John Demjanjuk.

As to my aforementioned blog, I consider it comprised in the overall endorsement of the Holocaust Controversies blog site by The Holocaust History Project:

11. Holocaust Controversies blog site http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.de

This blog, which includes contributions by some current THHP members and other academics, contains a massive number of very well researched essays, some of book length, on historical aspects of the Holocaust, including refutation of Holocaust deniers. See among many others the book length scholarly work Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka: Holocaust Denial and Operation Reinhard. Highly recommended.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Gord » Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:36 am

Roberto Muehlenkamp wrote:...What he isn't interested in is having any contact with someone as obnoxious as Greg Gerdes, who moreover appointed him "arbiter" without even asking him if he was interested in being one....

That's the "stuff" I was talkin' aboot.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:23 pm

Thought I'd stop by and see if Shermer has validated Roberto's New Anti-Math body count calculations yet. Nope. Not yet. OK. I'll check back later.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby David » Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:19 am

Roberto Muehlenkamp wrote:

The archaeological evidence I based my considerations on has been accepted by historians, by the way - and in the case of Sobibór also by the Munich Court of Assizes at the trial against John Demjanjuk.




Hello Roberto- "Accepted by historians" is the evidence of an idiot.
For years "historians" accepted that 350,000 people were killed at Majdanek.
For years "historians" believed in the Great Flood.
Braying out that the Munich Court has "accepted" the "evidence" doesn't improve the
probative value of "the evidence." :lol: :lol:

The Munich Court sentenced Mr. Demjanjuk to three years in jail and then
RELEASED him while the case was appealed. Do you really think that the Court
thought Demjanjuk murdered 27,000 people? :roll:

Your entire theory is based on conflating the fact that a thousand bodies were found
with the claim that hundreds of thousands of people were murdered.
The actual evidence does not support the tales of mass murder of thousands of people.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:00 am

Thought I'd stop by--again--and see if Shermer has validated Roberto's New Anti-Math body count calculations yet. Nope. Not yet. OK. I'll check back later.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:47 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Thought I'd stop by--again--and see if Shermer has validated Roberto's New Anti-Math body count calculations yet. Nope. Not yet. OK. I'll check back later.
Greg Gerdes never supplied the first lot of information to Michael Shermer nor even bothered to contact Michael Shermer to see if he was interested in reviewing anything. This was all discussed a year ago in this very thread. Are you pretending to forget? Isn't that David's trick?

viewtopic.php?p=295101#p295101

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:12 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Thought I'd stop by--again--and see if Shermer has validated Roberto's New Anti-Math body count calculations yet. Nope. Not yet. OK. I'll check back later.
Greg Gerdes never supplied the first lot of information to Michael Shermer nor even bothered to contact Michael Shermer to see if he was interested in reviewing anything. This was all discussed a year ago in this very thread. Are you pretending to forget? Isn't that David's trick?

viewtopic.php?p=295101#p295101


Roberto submitted his entry to the N.A.F.H. - Crime Scene Investigation Challenge on this forum intending for it to be judged by Michael Shermer. Roberto even provided the exact wording of the certification statement Michael Shermer needed to submit to Greg Gerdes for Roberto to collect his prize. Whatever Greg Gerdes did or did not do prior to Roberto's submission is about as important as the price of corn futures on the mercantile exchange so far as we are concerned. If there was any doubt in Roberto's mind, Roberto should've contacted Michael Shermer prior to submitting his entry to confirm that Michael Shermer was willing to act as arbiter. If he was not, Roberto should have not entered the contest. Because as it stands, Michael Shermer has not endorsed Roberto's entry nor has Michael Shermer publicly announced that he will not act as the arbiter in this contest. Therefore, the only conclusion is that Michael Shermer has considered Roberto's submission and found it lacking.

As he should.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Postby Daedalus » Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:16 am

Shouldn't you be at a clan rally?
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