Websites

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Pyrrho
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Websites

Postby Pyrrho » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:57 am

This topic lists several websites representing opposing viewpoints. The list is chosen by participants in this subforum and not by forum administration or by The Skeptics Society. The content, opinions, and commentary at the sites listed do not necessarily represent the opinions of the forum administration or of The Skeptics Society, its officers or its employees. We provide this purely for the purposes of discussion, not to promote any specific website or point of view.

One post containing a maximum of 6 links to websites is permitted for each opposing side. Discussion of the websites may begin after each opposing side has made a post containing their chosen links. Those individual posts will be locked; discussion of the specifically listed sites is encouraged, and the thread will remain open for that discussion, but is restricted to discussion of the specifically listed sites. Posts which contain links to additional websites will be split off to new topics. Links to pages contained within the originally listed sites are permitted; links to subdomains of the originally listed sites are not.

Naturally, discussion is still subject to the usual forum rules.

Thank you for your participation.

edited to add: By "6 links", I mean 6 for each position, i.e. 6 for sites that an individual feels supports the opinion that The Holocaust occurred, and 6 for sites that an individual feels supports the opinion that The Holocaust did not occur.

Sorry for any confusion.
Last edited by Pyrrho on Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Clarification of conditions.
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Re: Websites

Postby Saggy » Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:01 pm

Pyrrho wrote:each opposing side


??? Who chooses the 'sides'? Perhaps we need team names? I suggest the 'skeptics' vs. the 'Skeptics'.

Beyond that, I don't think you've fully thought out how this thing is supposed to work, at least, I don't understand it.

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Re: Websites

Postby Focus » Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:46 pm

Saggy says:
"I don't understand it."

Looks fuzzy and blurry to me too.
Focus

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Re: Websites

Postby nickterry » Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:55 pm

I will propose the following three for both sides. They cover the most ground, contain the most material, and have the most links to other sites.

Orthodox

Library of Congress Nuremberg Trials Page
http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/ ... -home.html
contains 68 volumes of proceedings of the Nuremberg trials: 42 volumes of the IMT 'Blue Series', 11 volumes of Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression 'Red Series', 15 volumes of Trials of the Major War Criminals 'Green Series'. Large PDF files

The Holocaust History Project
http://www.holocaust-history.org/
Refutations of revisionist arguments and republication of documents and books, including the complete text with images of Jean-Claude Pressac's Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers (1989)

Holocaust Denial On Trial
http://www.hdot.org/
Transcripts of the David Irving libel trial against Deborah Lipstadt in 2000; texts of the expert reports by Richard Evans, Christopher Browning, Peter Longerich and Robert Van Pelt.

Revisionist

Vrij Historisch Onderzoek (VHO)
http://vho.org/
Contains HTML pages and PDFs of all leading revisionist books and journals in English, German, French and other languages, from Paul Rassinier through Arthur Butz and Robert Faurisson to Germar Rudolf and Carlo Mattogno.

Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust (CODOH)
http://www.codoh.com/
Bradley Smith's website, with online articles and essays, plus the Revisionist Forum and links to 'One Third of the Holocaust' video.

Institute for Historical Review (IHR)
http://www.ihr.org/
Contains news articles, online reprints of articles from the Journal for Historical Review.

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Re: Websites

Postby Saggy » Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:34 pm

nickterry wrote:I will propose the following three for both sides. They cover the most ground, contain the most material, and have the most links to other sites.

Orthodox

Library of Congress Nuremberg Trials Page


Well, I certainly want to protest this selection of web sites right off the bat. I don't believe the Skeptics, also known as the Orthodox side, should be burdened with having to base its arguments on the collection of absurdities in the Nuremberg trials. We've just seen a long list of holocaust whoppers all fully documented by the Nuremberg transcripts. We don't want to have to revisit that list so soon. It looks like the Skeptics are being sandbagged. Even there, the whopper series omitted the greatest absurdity of the Nuremberg trial, in which the devil himself, the butcher of Auschwitz, Rudolf Hoess, was called as a defense witness. Lewis Carroll never imagined anything this odd even on the other side of the looking glass.

Let's give the Skeptics a chance, and not hold them to this terrible selection of sites.

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Re: Websites

Postby nickterry » Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:17 pm

Saggy wrote:
nickterry wrote:I will propose the following three for both sides. They cover the most ground, contain the most material, and have the most links to other sites.

Orthodox

Library of Congress Nuremberg Trials Page


Well, I certainly want to protest this selection of web sites right off the bat. I don't believe the Skeptics, also known as the Orthodox side, should be burdened with having to base its arguments on the collection of absurdities in the Nuremberg trials. We've just seen a long list of holocaust whoppers all fully documented by the Nuremberg transcripts. We don't want to have to revisit that list so soon. It looks like the Skeptics are being sandbagged. Even there, the whopper series omitted the greatest absurdity of the Nuremberg trial, in which the devil himself, the butcher of Auschwitz, Rudolf Hoess, was called as a defense witness. Lewis Carroll never imagined anything this odd even on the other side of the looking glass.

Let's give the Skeptics a chance, and not hold them to this terrible selection of sites.


In relation to the size of the proceedings, the few errors that revisionists have found don't amount to a hill of beans. The obfuscations of the legal issues of evidence, conclusions, judgements are innumerable. No, I'd say you just don't want people to look at the Nuremberg volumes by themselves, without 'guidance' and distortion from revisionist propaganda.

On second thoughts, I move that primary sources be considered separately from either side's partisan websites, especially since revisionists now think that IMT proves their case for them - it's a primary source for them too, only from a different angle.

The Nuremberg volumes should be in addition to any orthodox or anti-revisionist sites, along with other straight reproductions like the Avalon IMT transcripts website.

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Re: Websites

Postby Saggy » Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:04 pm

nickterry wrote:
In relation to the size of the proceedings, the few errors that revisionists have found don't amount to a hill of beans.


You mean like the fact that the Nuremberg proceedings don't have anything at all to do with the holohoax?

Only one of the defendents was even allegedly connected with the holohoax, that being Kaltenbrunner, and he testified that he learned of it on allied radio ! No evidence was presented to the contrary. No one confessed to anything. No evidence was presented that any defendant had anything at all to do with the holohoax. Hoess was called as a defense witness and confirmed a his signature on a statement written in a language he didn't understand (English), he was examined and cross-examined for ten minutes. This 'trial' wil go down as the greatest travesty of justice in history.

Of course we do have the auxiliary testimony regarding shrunken heads, Dachau gassing, etc. None relating to any defendant and none challenged. All pure phantasmagoria.

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Re: Websites

Postby Pyrrho » Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:35 am

I think there is a misunderstanding about the number of links permitted. I meant 6 links for each "side" of the issue. I'll correct the opening post to make this more clear.
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Re: Websites

Postby nickterry » Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:42 am

Pyrrho wrote:I think there is a misunderstanding about the number of links permitted. I meant 6 links for each "side" of the issue. I'll correct the opening post to make this more clear.


No, there was no misunderstanding. I just thought the first three choices of websites for each side were pretty obvious. I don't see the revisionists disagreeing with my 'guesses' on their behalf, either.

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Sourcing

Postby Focus » Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:02 pm

I prefer to use books. Books authored by Jewish writers and historians. I also wish to use certified documents and photographs. I will use test results from duly certified or reference testing laboratories monitored by NIST or European counterparts which use A.S.T.M. or DIN standards, methods and specifications. I will use actual topo maps of the period.
I would also like to have each topic highly focused with segues spun-off into new topics.

Let's keep in . . .
Focus


Maxim of Debate:
"If I hear something being debated pertaining to a subject that I am
not cognizant of, therefore impartial, I examine the manner of the
debate and conduct. I know who is telling the truth and who is lying
by the tactics employed- the liar always attacks the opposing person
and the truth teller always attacks the opposing premise!"

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Re: Websites

Postby David » Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:15 pm

nickterry wrote:In relation to the size of the proceedings, the few errors that revisionists have found don't amount to a hill of beans


I think that Nick can pick whatever websites he wants.
The findings* that 1.5 million people were killed
at Majdanek, the "human soap" bars admitted as evidence,
and the shrunken heads presented in Court all give a fine flavor
to his case.


*The Nuremberg Judgment was flakey in that it
largely consisted of repeating testimony presented
during the trial. Presumably the quoted testimony
is part of the findings of fact.

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Re: Websites

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:32 am

nickterry wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:I think there is a misunderstanding about the number of links permitted. I meant 6 links for each "side" of the issue. I'll correct the opening post to make this more clear.


No, there was no misunderstanding. I just thought the first three choices of websites for each side were pretty obvious. I don't see the revisionists disagreeing with my 'guesses' on their behalf, either.



Dear Pyrrho
May I add Nizkor to the Orthodox list? I have found it user friendly.
http://nizkor.org/

Saggy states he prefers books. He may be right but I believe the aim of offering websites on this discussion topic is to allow the forum reader to review websites from both sides to obtain a general understanding, not detailed evidence. Saggy can still use books to rebut arguments as per normal.

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Re: Websites

Postby Saggy » Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:21 pm

Perhaps you (the Skeptics) have noticed by now that the idea of this thread is totally bogus and unworkable.

The only good thing so far are the team names, the skeptics versus the Skeptics (Orthodox vs. Reform is too Jewish).

So, I'll just suggest how to make the idea workable. First, the problem is that a 'website' is too big. Way too big. This is obvious. Then nickterry wants to compound the problem by including links, presumably links to links, etc. Wrong. We need to restrict the argument, not expand it.

So, how to fix this problem. Instead of six websites, list six web PAGES. Each page has to contain the argument, without depending on links to other pages or sites. The pages have to be of reasonable size.


I mean, it's easy to list 6 short web pages each of which demolishes the holohoax. Let's see....

1. Photos of hoax Auschwitz gas chamber
2. Photo of hoax Majdanek gas chamber
3. Link to short video of Abraham Bomba (ok, it's a short video, but it's a must see), barber of Treblinka.
4. Link to Auschwitz museum page on the Death Books
5. Link to photos of shower pipes leading to Dachau gas chamber
6. Link to photos of survivors at Dachau
7. Link to Arthur Max article on faux release of Bad Arolsen documents (this has a discussion of the Belsen tyhpus epidemic)
8. Link to a Berg page on diesel carbon monoxide generation,


etc., etc.

The problem with these discussion from a skeptics (small s) point of view is that the Skeptics always want to change the subject .... "But what about the tatoos", or "My great uncle was in the camps". That would be prohibited.

I admit that the sites above devastate the Skeptics position without much additional arguing necessary, but, this stuff is so clear and easy it has become boring to me.

So, I'd really like to see 6 Skeptics pages. Pages that present concise arguments/proofs/evidence that the holohoax did occur. I don't think you can produce such a list.

It's on you.

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Re: Websites

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:49 pm

Saggy wrote: So, how to fix this problem. Instead of six websites, list six web PAGES. Each page has to contain the argument, without depending on links to other pages or sites. The pages have to be of reasonable size. I mean, it's easy to list 6 short web pages each of which demolishes the holohoax. Let's see....


Dear Saggy

I suggested having links to websites to Pyrrho so as to allow any reader of the forum to read all the general material on the debate. The debate covers a wide field from specific technical issues, to current politics, to the theory of revisionism. For most forum readers, the websites will be the only material they can read on these subjects.

I think the specific pages is a good idea but for the particular thread issue you are discussing, but they are too narrow to allow for other general discussions. If we put up a photo of one of the post war gas chambers as a locked in photo someone would have to find a page that argues against it to express the counter arguments and thus a specific argument would start before we outlayed the general information.

However, this is a mutual decision between forum members. Pyrrho, I assume, will follow the concensus after we have all expressed ourselves.

If anything having general information at the top of the forum will allow more people to join the debate.

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Re: Websites

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:52 am

Saggy wrote: The only good thing so far are the team names, the skeptics versus the Skeptics (Orthodox vs. Reform is too Jewish).


Do you mean too Greek? Its a Greek word not Hebrew. It is the root work for the latin Dux, or leader of a Roman Legion.

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Re: Websites

Postby DrQ » Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:39 pm

I reveiwed the links since I had the time to do it and to think of it. How can you turn back in time to erase millions of skeletons of the dead?

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Re: Websites

Postby José » Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:21 am

In 1945, I was taken to the cinema every week by my mother and although films were censored in those days, the newsreels were not.
I doubt very much that those newsreels were faked and I have vivid memories of the concentration camps as the allies moved in and those memories are undimmed by the passing of 63 years.
In one clip taken at Belsen, bulldozers were used by British Army soldiers to fill mass graves with hundreds of corpses.
Hundreds of skeletal people were filmed in striped prison clothes at Auschwitz.
Similar film was shot at Buchenwald, Sobibor, Treblinka. and other camps and there was not enough time between the actual filming and public viewing to doctor it.

There is no denying the fact that some form of extermination process was under way at the time.

The actual number of people who died as a result of this barbaric maybe questionable, but that many millions did, is beyond all doubt.

The revered (now deceased) news reporter, Richard Dimbleby was there for the BBC when British troops moved into Belsen, one of the smaller camps:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/4445811.stm
ABC estimated Al Gore has made more than $100 million off of global warming speeches and companies in the last 7 years.

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Re: Websites

Postby rikku » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:59 pm

This is popular among "deniers" on the internet, although its creator hasn't produced anything new for some time:

http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/

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Re: Websites

Postby 666isMONEY » Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:11 pm

Best short book on the holohoax: Giant with feet of clay: http://vho.org/GB/Books/Giant/

Diesel gas chamber fraud exposed (impracticality of Diesel exhaust for extermination): http://www.nazigassings.com/
http://www.nazigassings.com/zyklondelousing.html

My website: http://666ismoney.com/HolocaustAds.html

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Re: Websites

Postby Pyrrho » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:54 pm

Spammer. Banned.
For any forum questions or concerns please e-mail skepticforum@gmail.com or send a PM.

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Re: Websites

Postby citizenschallenge » Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:36 pm

Saggy wrote: the holohoax?

Yipes, I'm outta here.


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The AGW consensus IS compelled by the evidence.
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Re: Websites

Postby Cerdic » Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:16 am

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.de/
Debunkings of Revisionist arguments, and other Holocaust-related postings

http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/JuNSVEng/J ... mepage.htm
Nazi criminals on trial (also available in German)

http://www.wollheim-memorial.de/en/home
Forced labour during the 3rd Reich

http://www.h-ref.de/
German-language website featuring refutations of Revisionist arguments and original documents

http://web.archive.org/web/200407220151 ... anung.html
Nazi genocidal plans against Eastern Europeans (in German)

http://web.archive.org/web/201004090753 ... ist.by.ru/
The book "Holocaust Denial" by John Zimmerman
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Re: Websites

Postby itslarry » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:40 pm

my $.02

I greatly enjoy the posting of links. For someone like me who doesnt have a lot of knowledge on the debate i find this a lot easier to try and "catch up" on the subject rather than randomly clicking links on google.


thanks folks

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Re: Websites

Postby Denying-History » Sat May 07, 2016 1:37 am

« Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood. »
- Lu Xun

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Re: Websites

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat May 07, 2016 1:47 am

This website, Defending History, has a good deal of anti-denial material and argument pertaining to Lithuania: http://defendinghistory.com/.
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: Websites

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun May 08, 2016 1:47 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:This website, Defending History, has a good deal of anti-denial material and argument pertaining to Lithuania: http://defendinghistory.com/.


despite your reservations on Arad, I found his essay from that site to be rather fantastic.

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Re: Websites

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun May 08, 2016 2:48 pm

agree that that's a good piece; I like Arad, actually, and he was good in his time, but I am critical of his work in that he's been eclipsed by better historians and researchers; that said, his Ghetto in Flames is indispensable . . . but we also need a new work in English on Vilnius
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: Websites

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun May 08, 2016 3:21 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:agree that that's a good piece; I like Arad, actually, and he was good in his time, but I am critical of his work in that he's been eclipsed by better historians and researchers; that said, his Ghetto in Flames is indispensable . . . but we also need a new work in English on Vilnius


The Katz site is a good source of info but most of the posts consist of links to newspaper articles. They could use more blog entries along the lines of the Arad essay, not as detailed obviously, but it would make the site a lot easier to navigate, I agree with the premise though.

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Re: Websites

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun May 08, 2016 5:01 pm

the focus has very much become critiquing "double genocide" and so many of the entries are in that vein; but I've found a good deal, often in articles on double genocide, about the Holocaust in Lithuania; we don't discuss double genocide in this forum - and Dovid's a very strong advocate, not a neutral by any means, but it is imbedded in Lithuanian discourse from what I can tell (e.g., among Lithuanian friends of mine Holocaust minimization is very strong)
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: Websites

Postby Frank Hoffman » Tue May 17, 2016 3:59 am

There is a website I like visiting on occasion called "Zero Hedge" which deals primarily with economics and investing. Some of the articles can be pretty off-the-wall, which makes it an enjoyable read. So I was not put off by an article titled "Guest Post: The Stunning Parallels Between The United States And Nazi Germany". The piece talks primarily about German socialism and makes various claims how the Nazis tried to do some social engineering which the author equates to current actions of our present government. The article turned out to be quite a yawn... but not so the comments section. I was completely caught off guard by the complete denial of the Holocaust by so many different commenters. I expect that from trolls on the Skeptic Forum, but for it to come out of nowhere and with such blatant and obvious belief by the commenters, I was shocked. These are not people trying to get a rise out of Statistical Mechanic, they actually believe what they are writing. Incredible, and very scary.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-1 ... to+zero%29

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Re: Websites

Postby RizoliTV » Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:01 am

Here is a good website that has a lot of good links for one and all ....
http://whale.to/b/holocaust_revisionism.html

This way I won't take up a lot of space.....thats just the type of Guy I am.

JR

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Re: Websites

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:08 am

RizoliTV wrote:Here is a good website that has a lot of good links for one and all ....
http://whale.to/b/holocaust_revisionism.html

This way I won't take up a lot of space.....thats just the type of Guy I am.

JR


I love whale. It's very entertaining.

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Re: Websites

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:09 am

RizoliTV wrote:Here is a good website that has a lot of good links for one and all ....
http://whale.to/b/holocaust_revisionism.html

This way I won't take up a lot of space.....thats just the type of Guy I am.

JR


http://whale.to/c/zionists_funded.html

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Re: Websites

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:10 am

RizoliTV wrote:Here is a good website that has a lot of good links for one and all ....
http://whale.to/b/holocaust_revisionism.html

This way I won't take up a lot of space.....thats just the type of Guy I am.

JR


This was a link from whale:

http://www.henrymakow.com/hitler_and_bo ... raito.html

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Re: Websites

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:12 am

RizoliTV wrote:Here is a good website that has a lot of good links for one and all ....
http://whale.to/b/holocaust_revisionism.html

This way I won't take up a lot of space.....thats just the type of Guy I am.

JR


http://whale.to/b/hallet_b.html

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Re: Websites

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:26 am

RizoliTV wrote:Here is a good website that has a lot of good links for one and all ....
http://whale.to/b/holocaust_revisionism.html

This way I won't take up a lot of space.....thats just the type of Guy I am.

JR


This is my favorite:

http://whale.to/c/benedikt-kautsky2.jpg

I didn't know the Poles incarcerated Austrian Jews in 1938.

For that matter, I didn't know that the Poles opened Auschwitz.

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scrmbldggs
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Re: Websites

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:47 am

And that in Germany to boot?
Hi, Io the lurker.

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RizoliTV
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Re: Websites

Postby RizoliTV » Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:38 pm

This has a good start off page to debunk all the HoloHuxsters that have found a home on this site.
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/tmotsm/index.html#toc
I'm still trying to understand how a Skeptoid can believe in the HoloHoax full speed ahead and be on this site.
All topics are debatable except the Holohoax. The Skeptoids HoloHuxsters seem to think their opinion is the only one that counts.....thats pretty scary.....but it just shows how the Jews take control of topics, especially those that expose them.

Jim Rizoli
CCFIILE.COM
http://ccfiile.com/Holocaust_Liars.html

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Re: Websites

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:14 pm

Hi, Io the lurker.

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Jeffk 1970
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Re: Websites

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:22 am

RizoliTV wrote:This has a good start off page to debunk all the HoloHuxsters that have found a home on this site.
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/tmotsm/index.html#toc
I'm still trying to understand how a Skeptoid can believe in the HoloHoax full speed ahead and be on this site.
All topics are debatable except the Holohoax. The Skeptoids HoloHuxsters seem to think their opinion is the only one that counts.....thats pretty scary.....but it just shows how the Jews take control of topics, especially those that expose them.

Jim Rizoli
CCFIILE.COM
http://ccfiile.com/Holocaust_Liars.html


The only thing I'm skeptical of right now is your ability to function in the real world.


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