Listening

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Lausten
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Listening

Postby Lausten » Wed Oct 14, 2015 5:15 pm

I a few of my facebooks are commenting "I agree" to this. Not sure which part they are agreeing with, or if they understand sarcasm.

I think listening is important. I'd like to give a 2 hour lecture on the value of listening. Everyone should hear what I have to say about listening. All of congress should go to this lecture and not say anything, just listen. Parents and teachers should also talk endlessly to their children about listening, and how important it is. Really, are you listening? This is important. I can't say enough about how important listening is. If you aren't listening, you don't hear. That seems pretty clear, but it seems people are having trouble with this these days. I'll say more on this later.
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Re: Listening

Postby landrew » Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:46 pm

Lausten wrote:I a few of my facebooks are commenting "I agree" to this. Not sure which part they are agreeing with, or if they understand sarcasm.

I think listening is important. I'd like to give a 2 hour lecture on the value of listening. Everyone should hear what I have to say about listening. All of congress should go to this lecture and not say anything, just listen. Parents and teachers should also talk endlessly to their children about listening, and how important it is. Really, are you listening? This is important. I can't say enough about how important listening is. If you aren't listening, you don't hear. That seems pretty clear, but it seems people are having trouble with this these days. I'll say more on this later.

The smartest people I know are good listeners. A friend of mine never listens to anything, and he's one of the dumbest people I know.

When you purport to "know everything," there's nothing left to learn, therefore you create your own "ignorance bubble." They say intelligence is what you're born with, but I'm convinced that stupidity is self-taught.
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Re: Listening

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:26 am

Its very often said, but I think very often it actually means 'if you don't agree with what I said, then you didn't listen close enough."

The most irritating thing about a Charlie Rose interview is that he has great guests and asks good questions, BUT then half the time he will interrupt the answer to give his own view on subject. Is that not listening?.....or something else.

So....if the point of listening is to learn a discrete set of facts, is that required if you already know those facts? Take a teacher in front of a class...how much time should be wasted listening to a student rant before the Prof interrupts.

Same with all Politicians. Stop the stump speech to actually answer the question asked.

Rather than having to listen to the diatribe all the way through: what is actually said in response?
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Re: Listening

Postby Lausten » Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:47 am

I don't pretend to have answers to those. The sarcasm is intended to expose the paradox of needing to listen to learn to listen and to listen to gain trust for when you do speak.
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Re: Listening

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:57 am

What is the basis/mechanism of the sarcasm? I don't see it.
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Re: Listening

Postby Lausten » Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:07 am

Is that sarcasm? "Everyone should hear what I have to say about listening", kinda exposes the hypocrisy pretty quickly. "should also talk endlessly to their children about listening", I figured "endlessly" would add the hyperbole and make the silliness of it clear. "I can't say enough" and "I'll say more" kinda drive it home. I realize sarcasm is difficult to write. I also realize Bobbo is asking the question.
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Re: Listening

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:14 am

I think listening is really important. However I thought there was a documented limit to people's attention span and thus listening for a short period is more productive than two hours.

Attention Span Statistics
http://www.statisticbrain.com/attention ... tatistics/
The average attention span in 2015 = 8.25 seconds

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Re: Listening

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:27 am

Lausten: listening IS important. Thank you for your direct answer saying that use of the word "endlessly" was your indication of sarcasm. but it fails. Parents/teaches should talk endlessly about the value of listening. endlessly meaning repetitively as opposed to nothing else.

Use (sarc/off) or an emoji or post under jokes? You affirm you understand sarcasm does not come across the interwebatubes very well.

Maybe............... one day................. you will listen to yourself? (Note: no intended sarcasm at all)

Late Edit: I see you did post in the Funny Pages. Clue enough for those that notice such things before they go to topic.
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Re: Listening

Postby Lausten » Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:30 pm

Matthew makes a good point, and points to another good indicator of the sarcasm. The post is directed to at least two types of people; managers and leaders who think speaking for two hours is exactly what they should do, and people who post crap on the internet and never respond to feedback.

Sarcasm does require some knowledge in the person receiving it. For instance, if I complement someone on their clothing. If they have a terrible sense of fashion, they won't know I'm being sarcastic. If they usually dress well, but for some reason are wearing a flannel shirt in a formal occasion, they'll get that I'm expecting an explanation.

Or if I said something like, "thanks for the advice Bobbo". Bobbo should know that I'm not interested in his advice. In response to your comment, I'll just say "it's elementary". See Habit 5 in the link
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Re: Listening

Postby landrew » Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:27 pm

Lausten wrote:Matthew makes a good point, and points to another good indicator of the sarcasm. The post is directed to at least two types of people; managers and leaders who think speaking for two hours is exactly what they should do, and people who post crap on the internet and never respond to feedback.

Sarcasm does require some knowledge in the person receiving it. For instance, if I complement someone on their clothing. If they have a terrible sense of fashion, they won't know I'm being sarcastic. If they usually dress well, but for some reason are wearing a flannel shirt in a formal occasion, they'll get that I'm expecting an explanation.

Or if I said something like, "thanks for the advice Bobbo". Bobbo should know that I'm not interested in his advice. In response to your comment, I'll just say "it's elementary". See Habit 5 in the link

You Tube is an excellent example, where people ruin their own video by talking for 5 minutes before they show it. We should do our part and give them a thumbs-down, or at least offer constructive criticism, to counter all the people who think it's their duty to offer praise to every video, no matter how bad.
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Re: Listening

Postby Lausten » Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:29 pm

landrew wrote:You Tube is an excellent example, where people ruin their own video by talking for 5 minutes before they show it. We should do our part and give them a thumbs-down, or at least offer constructive criticism, to counter all the people who think it's their duty to offer praise to every video, no matter how bad.

Definitely a pet peeve of mine. I did not touch a computer until college, so I can't be accused of having a short attention span due to being raised on them. I am however aware that most YouTube watchers have just that. If the title of your YouTube is "boring discussion with old people", fine, I know what to expect, and I'll be patient through the intro with pictures of churches and choral music. But if it's "most spectacular thing you'll see this week", you better grab me fast because I have a lot of those to preview.
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Re: Listening

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:18 pm

Lausten wrote:Matthew makes a good point, and points to another good indicator of the sarcasm. The post is directed to at least two types of people; managers and leaders who think speaking for two hours is exactly what they should do, and people who post crap on the internet and never respond to feedback.


I think it would be a bit easier for a tutor in a "hands on" class. A tutor can give a five minute mini lecture and then direct the class to do the practical activity confirming that. Thus only a short attention span is required which is immediately reinforced by "over learning". If I attend a large conference hall lecture to learn how to use new accounting software, the tutor can generally follow this technique. They show the activity "X" and then 500 of us trainees, do it again, on our laptops.

For politicians, I think they could do sort of the same thing. A politician could make his 30 second verbal policy statement and then repeat the same policy logic visually, using visual aides. That should get more information through to the audience. However, the real question, is if politicians really want to exchange information or simply remain popular?
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Re: Listening

Postby Lausten » Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:59 am

Matthew; You're getting to the "it depends" part of the conversation. A two hour lecture on some things might be perfectly appropriate. Chinese history for example. People coming to hear that would come because they wanted to know about that specific thing. Assuming the speaker knew the topic, perfectly appropriate for them to talk and everyone else to listen.

Using new software, I agree, if you listen for two hours, then go back to your office and try to do what they said, no way. You've got to try it immediately to be sure you heard it right. And the teacher needs to be aware if half the class doesn't get it, then it's probably their delivery that's the problem.

If the subject itself is listening, I think an even more experiential learning is warranted. Same would go for any behavior oriented topic.

My little rant was more about listening in general, how we have created more and more tools for sending out information, how we have lots of books and trainings for speaking, but not so much for how to receive it. I'm not complaining about having more information at my fingertips, but I'm saying those who are creating the content need to know when to stop and listen to some feedback.
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Re: Listening

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:05 am

Search Results

sar·casm
ˈsärˌkazəm/
noun
noun: sarcasm; plural noun: sarcasms
the use of irony to mock or convey contempt.

What you said was: 'I think listening is important." //// If you are being sarcastic, what you mean is that listening is NOT important.

or maybe something subtly short of sarcasm as when you next say: "I'd like to give a 2 hour lecture on the value of listening." //// the sarcasm being that 2 hours is too long? but you say just above that 2 hours is ok for a knowledgeable talk about China?

Hard to be sarcastic when the subject is a fine mix or right and wrong?
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Re: Listening

Postby Lausten » Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:45 pm

In general, to "troll" means to allure, to fish, to entice, or to bait. Internet trolls are people who fish for other people's confidence and, once found, exploit it. Trolls vary in nature; here are four types of online trolls:
Playtime Trolls: an individual plays a simple, short game. Such trolls are relatively easy to spot because their attack or provocation is fairly blatant, and the persona is fairly two-dimensional.
Tactical Trolls: This is where the troller takes the game more seriously, creates a credible persona to gain confidence of others, and provokes strife in a subtle and invidious way.
Strategic Trolls: A very serious form of game, involving the production of an overall strategy that can take months or years to develop. It can also involve a number of people acting together in order to invade a list.
Domination Trolls: This is where the trollers' strategy extends to the creation and running of apparently bona-fide mailing lists.
- See more at: http://www.netlingo.com/word/troll.php# ... Gj5px.dpuf

As an example, a tactic would be to attack part of a message for being in-congruent with other parts of the person's overall comments, while ignoring the part that answers the concern raised by the troll. This shuts down any nuance in the conversation and requires a response that simply repeats parts of an earlier text.
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Re: Listening

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:44 pm

Yeah....so basically a troll is anyone you disagree with.

Rather than deal with the issues raised, you stop thinking, place a label on the other person, and go blithely on your way.

check.
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Re: Listening

Postby digress » Sat Oct 17, 2015 3:17 pm

Lausten wrote:
I think listening is important. I'd like to give a 2 hour lecture on the value of listening. Everyone should hear what I have to say about listening. All of congress should go to this lecture and not say anything, just listen. Parents and teachers should also talk endlessly to their children about listening, and how important it is. Really, are you listening? This is important. I can't say enough about how important listening is. If you aren't listening, you don't hear. That seems pretty clear, but it seems people are having trouble with this these days. I'll say more on this later.


:lol: I ♥ the to be continued ending.

Where is this 2 hour lecture on the value of listening? I'd really like to hear more about how I need to listen.
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Re: Listening

Postby Lausten » Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:37 am

digress wrote::lol: I ♥ the to be continued ending.

Where is this 2 hour lecture on the value of listening? I'd really like to hear more about how I need to listen.

Thanks digress. I'm still working out the details. I planned to start with 5 minutes of nothing, just getting everyone comfortable with a little silence. A lot doesn't get heard because there's no silence for people to speak in to. That leaves a lot of time to fill, probably mostly just berating people. Maybe a song and dance number.
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