Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Creationism, Intelligent Design, and Evolution.
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Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:17 pm

Intelligent design does not mean perfect design. After all, you have intelligence but aren't perfect. Right?

Good enough design in nature is good enough evidence of intelligence design.

Foot fossils of human relative illustrate evolutionary 'messiness' of bipedal walking
Science Daily

So God was in a hurry to get those humans done before the deadline?
Is that supposed to prove He doesn't exist?
You could prove you don't exist with that line of reasoning. ;)
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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:25 pm

Is it intelligent to design a 787 jet with a wing on side only?
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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Wed Oct 07, 2015 3:10 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Is it intelligent to design a 787 jet with a wing on side only?


Does it fly?

Will someone buy it? :mrgreen:
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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Oct 07, 2015 3:33 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Is it intelligent to design a 787 jet with a wing on side only?


Does it fly?

Will someone buy it? :mrgreen:

Doesn't matter, someone 'intelligent' designed it.

And yes, I'm holding God to a higher standard.
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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby xouper » Wed Oct 07, 2015 3:49 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Is it intelligent to design a 787 jet with a wing on side only?

Your question uses a different meaning for the word "intelligent" than in the opening post. Thus it is either a straw man fallacy or an equivocation fallacy.

We've had this conversation before.

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:And yes, I'm holding God to a higher standard.

And that's another fallacy in your argument, in that the merits of the design are being judged based on YOUR  personal agenda, not the agenda of the designer. It's another variation of the straw man fallacy.


Disclaimer:  I do not believe God exists, so some of this discussion is moot. I only mention these things because this is a forum to promote critical thinking and it is entirely appropriate to discuss errors in the arguments posted, no matter where they creep into the conversation. My intention is not to belittle anyone, but merely to discuss issues related to critical thinking and to help people improve that skill.

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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby xouper » Wed Oct 07, 2015 3:50 pm

How about an airplane with different wings on each side of the fuselage?

It's a Rutan Model 202 Boomerang. (Yes, it flies, and rather well.)
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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby Austin Harper » Wed Oct 07, 2015 4:15 pm

As long as you don't try to turn. The dynamics get really weird with asymmetrical designs like that. At least the Boomerang isn't as bad as the Blohm & Voss BV 141
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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:08 pm

Wings on both sides there.
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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby xouper » Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:55 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Wings on both sides there.

Fact: In 1983, an Israeli F-15 was in a midair collision which sheared off the entire right wing. The pilot was able to continue flying it for ten miles and landed successfully. With only the left wing.

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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby TJrandom » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:39 pm

So God created Homo Naledi in His image? Whew, that is a big relief! Here I was thinking that God couldn`t climb trees. :roll:

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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:39 pm

Sometimes I wonder what Xoupy is saying.


I kid.
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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby Gord » Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:38 pm

TJrandom wrote:So God created Homo Naledi in His image? Whew, that is a big relief! Here I was thinking that God couldn`t climb trees. :roll:

God can't even design an airplane with a wing on just one side.

Or a watch that can evolve with the times.
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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Oct 07, 2015 11:34 pm

Austin Harper wrote: At least the Boomerang isn't as bad as the [wiki]Blohm & Voss BV 141

Good on you. It's one of those weird German designs that actually got produced. You may enjoy the Luft 46 Fan-site for obscure German aircraft designs, that fans turn into drawings and artwork.
http://www.luft46.com/bv/bv.html
http://www.luft46.com/

(I steal "late war" camouflage ideas for my model "paper panzer" German tanks, from this aircraft website) :D

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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:38 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:Intelligent design does not mean perfect design. After all, you have intelligence but aren't perfect. Right?

Good enough design in nature is good enough evidence of intelligence design.

Foot fossils of human relative illustrate evolutionary 'messiness' of bipedal walking
Science Daily

So God was in a hurry to get those humans done before the deadline?
Is that supposed to prove He doesn't exist?
You could prove you don't exist with that line of reasoning. ;)


but god is perfect and so is his design. If you don't agree, its because God is so perfect, and you are so imperfect. ON YOUR KNEES SLAVE!!!!!!

The watch analogy needs to be fully appreciated. No one person builds and designs a watch. It takes a whole technological society to do that. A whole pantheon of Gods, if you will.
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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:26 am

Watch it, techno society is watching you! Or watchamacallit?
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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby Gord » Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:25 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:No one person builds and designs a watch.

Who're you, Obama the Socialist?
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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:56 pm

Gord wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:No one person builds and designs a watch.

Who're you, Obama the Socialist?

Putin recently called Obama a "communist". :lol:
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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby Gord » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:40 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Gord wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:No one person builds and designs a watch.

Who're you, Obama the Socialist?

Putin recently called Obama a "communist". :lol:

Yeah, but he hasn't even learnt how to put on a shirt yet, so what does he know.
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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:03 pm

xouper wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Wings on both sides there.

Fact: In 1983, an Israeli F-15 was in a midair collision which sheared off the entire right wing. The pilot was able to continue flying it for ten miles and landed successfully. With only the left wing.


Coming in on a wing and a prayer.

More proof of God. :P
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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:07 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Gord wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:No one person builds and designs a watch.

Who're you, Obama the Socialist?

Putin recently called Obama a "communist". :lol:


Ignazio Silone once said something along the lines of "The final struggle will be between the Communists and the ex-Communists".

Betcha he didn't figure it this way.
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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:10 pm

Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:33 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
xouper wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Wings on both sides there.

Fact: In 1983, an Israeli F-15 was in a midair collision which sheared off the entire right wing. The pilot was able to continue flying it for ten miles and landed successfully. With only the left wing.


Coming in on a wing and a prayer.

More proof of God. :P

Nope. Physics re aerodynamics. Pilot didn't know he had only one wing.....and was following his checklists rather than praying. Nice Read here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Nege ... _collision and a not good picture here: http://theaviationist.com/2014/09/15/f- ... -one-wing/
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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:40 pm

CL00: Google "Coming in on a wing and a prayer" :lol:
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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:47 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:CL00: Google "Coming in on a wing and a prayer" :lol:

For what purpose? If you have a worthwhile point, you should expressly state it and provide a link.
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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:50 pm

Scientists don't know everything, therefore my favorite flavor of stoopidz is true.

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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:21 pm

Just an aside, in my opinion Bing Crosby's cover of Coming in on a wing and a prayer is the best, but I couldn't find it on YouTube.

The expression a wing and a prayer pre-dates the song and wasn't particularly intended to be pious.
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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby gorgeous » Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:22 pm

--------Evidence for Intelligent Design from Biochemistry
From a speech delivered at Discovery Institute's
God & Culture Conference

Michael J. Behe
Discovery Institute
August 10, 1996 -----------Blood clotting requires extreme precision. When a pressurized blood circulation system is punctured, a clot must form quickly or the animal will bleed to death. On the other hand, if blood congeals at the wrong time or place, then the clot may block circulation as it does in heart attacks and strokes. Furthermore, a clot has to stop bleeding all along the length of the cut, sealing it completely. Yet blood clotting must be confined to the cut or the entire blood system of the animal might solidify, killing it. Consequently, clotting requires this enormously complex system so that the clot forms only when and only where it is required. ---------------------www.intelligentdesign.org/whatisid.php ----------Not by chance: From bacterial propulsion systems to human DNA, evidence of intelligent design is everywhere
Stephen C. Meyer
National Post of Canada
December 10, 2005 -------------In December 2004 New Mexico Public Television scheduled, advertised and then, under pressure, canceled a documentary explaining the scientific case for a theory of biological origins known as intelligent design.

In the same month, a renowned British philosopher, Antony Flew, made worldwide news when he repudiated a lifelong commitment to atheism, citing among other factors, evidence of intelligent design in the DNA molecule.

Also in December, the ACLU filed suit to prevent a Dover, Penn. school district from informing its students about the theory of intelligent design.

In February, The Wall Street Journal reported that an evolutionary biologist with two doctorates had been punished for publishing a peer-reviewed scientific article making a case for this same theory------------------------DNA functions like a software program. We know from experience that software comes from programmers. We know generally that information-whether inscribed in hieroglyphics, written in a book or encoded in a radio signal-always arises from an intelligent source. So the discovery of information in the DNA molecule, provides strong grounds for inferring that intelligence played a role in the origin of DNA, even if we weren't there to observe the system coming into existence.
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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby djembeweaver » Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:34 pm

Yet more proof is provided by the fact that 100% of people who successfully conquered cancer through prayer are alive today!

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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:06 pm

It's only as intelligent as we can define it...
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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby xouper » Sat Oct 10, 2015 12:03 am

gorgeous wrote: Michael J. Behe

Behe's arguments for intelligent design (and irreducible complexity in particular) have been soundly refuted. (Citations on request, if necessary.) His own university has taken the unprecedented step of publicly denouncing Behe's views on intelligent design.

gorgeous wrote: Also in December, the ACLU filed suit to prevent a Dover, Penn. school district from informing its students about the theory of intelligent design.

That court case was brought primarily to enforce separation of church and state. Religion does not belong in public school science classes. The court ruled that teaching intelligent design in a science class was a violation of the religious clauses of both the federal and state constitutions. The court also ruled that "intelligent design" (and also creationism) is not a science and does not belong in the public school science classroom. Ironically, it was Behe's own testimony in that trial that was a major determining factor in the ruling that intelligent design is not a science.

gorgeous wrote: ... DNA functions like a software program. We know from experience that software comes from programmers. We know generally that information-whether inscribed in hieroglyphics, written in a book or encoded in a radio signal-always arises from an intelligent source. So the discovery of information in the DNA molecule, provides strong grounds for inferring that intelligence played a role in the origin of DNA, even if we weren't there to observe the system coming into existence.

It might be grounds for an inference, but that's all it is, an "inference". In science, we need more evidence than that, since inferences can, and have been, proven wrong. The second problem is that making inferences from man-made artifacts does not necessarily apply to things that are not man-made. The analogy fails in comparing natural objects with man-made objects.

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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Oct 10, 2015 10:08 am

djembeweaver wrote:Yet more proof is provided by the fact that 100% of people who successfully conquered cancer through prayer are alive today!

Are you saying that people in 1808 CE that prayed that their cancer be cured are still alive today?
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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby xouper » Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:19 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
djembeweaver wrote:Yet more proof is provided by the fact that 100% of people who successfully conquered cancer through prayer are alive today!

Are you saying that people in 1808 CE that prayed that their cancer be cured are still alive today?

Good catch, Gawd. I missed that the first time I read it.

But now that you bring it up, I'd like to point out there are at least two ways to interpret what djembeweaver meant. One is to interpret his words literally, which then leads to your question, which then leads to the obvious answer, no, that's probably not what he meant.

If we assume djembeweaver is smart enough to know that people who were alive in 1808 are not still alive today — and I am perfectly willing to make that assumption until proven otherwise — then we can dismiss the literal interpretation as not what he intended.

Clearly then, there is some ambiguity in the way djembeweaver stated his thought.

We can then ask, what is the intent of your question?

1. Were you intending to inject humor into the discussion, as Gord often does?

2. Are you asking for clarification of the ambiguity?

3. Or was your intent to bring attention to the lack of perfect clarity in the way djembeweaver wrote his comment?

4. Or is this yet another one of your drive by postings meant to express hostility towards the other person?

Given those possible interpretations of your question — and perhaps there are more — I would suggest that there's a certain irony in using an ambiguously phrased question to challenge the ambiguity in another person's comment. So perhaps the answer is #1.

In case anyone is interested — which is likely a mistaken assumption — here is my interpretation of his comment:

Perhaps djembeweaver should have wrote:Yet more proof is provided by the fact that 100% of people who successfully conquered cancer through prayer are alive today did not die from cancer!

It's possible djembeweaver did not mean that either, in which case I apologize for not getting his point.

Isn't language fun? ;)

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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:53 am

djembeweaver wrote:Yet more proof is provided by the fact that 100% of people who successfully conquered cancer through prayer are alive today!
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Are you saying that people in 1808 CE that prayed that their cancer be cured are still alive today?
Holly Molly, It's a miracle. Hang on, that sounds a bit fishy. Whoops, it's just a mackerel. :D

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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby djembeweaver » Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:57 am

xouper wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
djembeweaver wrote:Yet more proof is provided by the fact that 100% of people who successfully conquered cancer through prayer are alive today!

Are you saying that people in 1808 CE that prayed that their cancer be cured are still alive today?

Good catch, Gawd. I missed that the first time I read it.

But now that you bring it up, I'd like to point out there are at least two ways to interpret what djembeweaver meant. One is to interpret his words literally, which then leads to your question, which then leads to the obvious answer, no, that's probably not what he meant.

If we assume djembeweaver is smart enough to know that people who were alive in 1808 are not still alive today — and I am perfectly willing to make that assumption until proven otherwise — then we can dismiss the literal interpretation as not what he intended.

Clearly then, there is some ambiguity in the way djembeweaver stated his thought.

We can then ask, what is the intent of your question?

1. Were you intending to inject humor into the discussion, as Gord often does?

2. Are you asking for clarification of the ambiguity?

3. Or was your intent to bring attention to the lack of perfect clarity in the way djembeweaver wrote his comment?

4. Or is this yet another one of your drive by postings meant to express hostility towards the other person?

Given those possible interpretations of your question — and perhaps there are more — I would suggest that there's a certain irony in using an ambiguously phrased question to challenge the ambiguity in another person's comment. So perhaps the answer is #1.

In case anyone is interested — which is likely a mistaken assumption — here is my interpretation of his comment:

Perhaps djembeweaver should have wrote:Yet more proof is provided by the fact that 100% of people who successfully conquered cancer through prayer are alive today did not die from cancer!

It's possible djembeweaver did not mean that either, in which case I apologize for not getting his point.

Isn't language fun? ;)


I was being totally ironic and more than a little facetious...

My point was to show how easy it is to construct an invalid argument that seems to make some sort of sense superficially. That's why the scientific method requires very specific criteria such as falsifiability and hypothetico-deductive testing of a null hypothesis. The case concerning Michael Behe demonstrates this in action: His ideas of 'irreducible complexity' supporting 'intelligent design' generate no falsifiable hypotheses that can be subjected to modus tollens. Put simply if nothing can prove it is wrong then nothing can infer that it is right.

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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby djembeweaver » Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:39 pm

4. Or is this yet another one of your drive by postings meant to express hostility towards the other person?


That's interesting. If that's honestly how I come across then I am disappointed. By 'drive-by' I assume you mean making a single post then not returning to the thread. In general I post in threads that interest me or where I think I can contribute and I think where that applies I mostly stick around to discuss, clarify, or defend a position.

Regarding hostility, I find that even more surprising, considering how much outright hostility I see from other members. I try not engage in ad hominem (although I slip occasionally) and don't call people idiots or morons etc as others often do. I try really hard to stick to the issues and argue rationally. I do have the occasional sarcastic joke (like in this thread) at the expense of someone spouting new-age or religious nonsense, which is a bit naughty but quite tame to the abuse thrown about liberally by others...

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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby xouper » Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:31 pm

djembeweaver wrote:
xouper wrote:
Perhaps djembeweaver should have wrote:Yet more proof is provided by the fact that 100% of people who successfully conquered cancer through prayer are alive today did not die from cancer!

It's possible djembeweaver did not mean that either, in which case I apologize for not getting his point.

I was being totally ironic and more than a little facetious...

That was immediately my thought when I first read your original comment.

I thought that went without saying.

Your observation seemed deliberate in not mentioning those who prayed but were not successful in defeating the cancer, and therefor, no conclusion can be made about the efficacy of prayer. Yes, that went without saying. I think most people here got that, which is why I was surprised at Gawdzilla's question, since surely he go it too and was simply yanking your chain. And then I proceeded to waste a half hour of my time overthinking it and writing about it, because, well, you know, it's the interwebz.

djembeweaver wrote:My point was to show how easy it is to construct an invalid argument that seems to make some sort of sense superficially. That's why the scientific method requires very specific criteria such as falsifiability and hypothetico-deductive testing of a null hypothesis. The case concerning Michael Behe demonstrates this in action: His ideas of 'irreducible complexity' supporting 'intelligent design' generate no falsifiable hypotheses that can be subjected to modus tollens. Put simply if nothing can prove it is wrong then nothing can infer that it is right.

Agreed. I think most people here already know all that and used that knowledge to infer the facetious intent of your original comment.

djembeweaver wrote:
xouper wrote:4. Or is this yet another one of your drive by postings meant to express hostility towards the other person?

That's interesting. If that's honestly how I come across then I am disappointed. By 'drive-by' I assume you mean making a single post then not returning to the thread.

Yes, that's what I meant by that. But that comment was intended for Gawdzilla, since he is known to do that (occasionally) on this forum. All of those numbered interpretations were referring to Gawdzilla's question, not to your original remark. Sorry I was not more clear on that.

And now I think I have exceeded my limit for overthinking a thing. :twisted: ;)

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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby djembeweaver » Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:02 pm

xouper wrote:.

djembeweaver wrote:
xouper wrote:4. Or is this yet another one of your drive by postings meant to express hostility towards the other person?

That's interesting. If that's honestly how I come across then I am disappointed. By 'drive-by' I assume you mean making a single post then not returning to the thread.

Yes, that's what I meant by that. But that comment was intended for Gawdzilla, since he is known to do that (occasionally) on this forum. All of those numbered interpretations were referring to Gawdzilla's question, not to your original remark. Sorry I was not more clear on that.


I'm relieved to hear that. I didn't think I was a drive-by poster who expressed hostility to others (though I do have the occasional dig)

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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sat Oct 10, 2015 10:26 pm

I'm surprised no one mentioned the theory of IID (intelligent icky design).

Some things are just too icky to have evolved naturally.

viewtopic.php?p=189878
Scientists don't know everything, therefore my favorite flavor of stoopidz is true.

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Re: Finally! Evidence for intelligent design!

Postby TJrandom » Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:09 am

djembeweaver wrote: ... I was being totally ironic and more than a little facetious...


Well that calls for an automatic and immediate banning. Heaven forbid that we permit irony or even humor! Just the facts mam, just the facts.... :?

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Re: Finally! Evidences for intelligent design!

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sun Oct 11, 2015 4:00 pm

Subject line changed accordingly.
Scientists don't know everything, therefore my favorite flavor of stoopidz is true.


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