Humans ARE NOT Descended From Apes

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Humans ARE NOT Descended From Apes

Postby Cygnus_X1 » Sun Sep 27, 2015 2:56 pm

Oh dear. Well...as per your idiotic request, Sweetpea, here is the thread.

Sweetpea quote : "bobbo didn't know that humans descended from other apes, and yet he thinks he knows something about climate."
"This keeps getting better. Start a thread. Please. Title it "Humans ARE NOT descended from Apes"."

No, contrary to your claims on that thread, Sweetpea, humans indeed are NOT descended from apes. Only a complete moron, utterly ignorant of science, thinks otherwise.

"Humans did not evolve from apes, gorillas or chimps."

http://www.livescience.com/32503-why-ha ... umans.html

" Humans did not evolve from monkeys. Humans are more closely related to modern apes than to monkeys, but we didn't evolve from apes, either "

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/libra ... cat02.html
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Re: Humans ARE NOT Descended From Apes

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Sep 27, 2015 3:59 pm

See other main thread: its the English language vs scientific nomenclature.

Sweetpea thinks he is winning something by refusing to acknowledge simple definitional differences as the root of the disagreement rather than any understanding beneath that.

Shows a definite lack of flexibility of mind.
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Re: Humans ARE NOT Descended From Apes

Postby Cygnus_X1 » Sun Sep 27, 2015 5:36 pm

Sweetpea is deliberately trying to confuse with the term 'great apes'...that is often used for the taxonomical group hominidae. But the term 'great apes' is largely a historical relic and there is wide disagreement over whether it really applies to humans. More to the point, there is no specific species called an 'ape' that we are descended from, and taxonomists have changed the meaning of 'apes' a dozen times since the 60s. There is a common ancestor, however that ancestor cannot have the species 'ape' if you are then going to argue that orang-utans, gorillas, monkeys, and humans...all of which are different species...are all apes at the same time !

It's really sloppy semantics...which is why taxonomists have changed the definitions so many times. It's like arguing that 'birds are descended from dinosaurs'. But you cannot just stick a pin in a list of 'dinosaurs' and find a bird ancestor...any more that you can claim descent from Genghis Khan just because Khan was 'human'.
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Re: Humans ARE NOT Descended From Apes

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:26 pm

I have a much more simplistic view. Sweetpea trolls science threads by picking on minor word definitions that he can use to pick fights. That's it. He hasn't got a clue what the actual science is behind the discussion. It's all about trolling.

Normal people on this forum make hundreds of claims and statements a year and for many reasons, such as posting in an informal conversation environment or through simple error, we are all going to make one of two technical mistakes every year. The whole point of the scientific method is that we are allowed to make mistakes, have them identified to us, we then go "OK, I made a mistake" and move on. There is no loss of face if you make an error and acknowledge it.

In this case, you are both right and should put it out for everyone to see, However, you are also both above Sweetpea's level and if you really want revenge simply continue into the core science discussion in depth. Sweetpea won't have a clue what you are talking about. Don't worry about minor definition squabbles if the normal forum members understand what you are explaining. Even better, put Sweetpea on ignore. He's not interesting. :D

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Re: Humans ARE NOT Descended From Apes

Postby Cygnus_X1 » Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:13 pm

Copied from another thread....

If you are arguing purely from taxonomy, humans are not 'apes'.

'Ape' is NOT a taxonomic term. It is entirely a matter of semantics, not science, whether you use the English word 'ape' to describe humans. For example in French the translation of 'ape' is 'singe'...which is actually the word ONLY used for 'monkey'. Given that the actual taxonomy has changed every 5 minutes since the 1960s, it is hardly surprising that the semantic term 'ape' has not kept up.

Humans are hominoids. Whether they are 'apes' is entirely a semantic issue...not a scientific one.
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Re: Humans ARE NOT Descended From Apes

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:20 pm

Everything alive at this point has evolved to this point. Some have followed more complex evolutionary paths than others. For example, coelacanth hasn't needed to evolve much, little pressure in its niche. Others may have actually devolved, see "Tea Party" for examples of this.
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Re: Humans ARE NOT Descended From Apes

Postby Cygnus_X1 » Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:31 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:I have a much more simplistic view. Sweetpea trolls science threads by picking on minor word definitions that he can use to pick fights. That's it. He hasn't got a clue what the actual science is behind the discussion. It's all about trolling.

Normal people on this forum make hundreds of claims and statements a year and for many reasons, such as posting in an informal conversation environment or through simple error, we are all going to make one of two technical mistakes every year. The whole point of the scientific method is that we are allowed to make mistakes, have them identified to us, we then go "OK, I made a mistake" and move on. There is no loss of face if you make an error and acknowledge it.

In this case, you are both right and should put it out for everyone to see, However, you are also both above Sweetpea's level and if you really want revenge simply continue into the core science discussion in depth. Sweetpea won't have a clue what you are talking about. Don't worry about minor definition squabbles if the normal forum members understand what you are explaining. Even better, put Sweetpea on ignore. He's not interesting. :D


This is precisely why science contains concise definitions...those being the actual taxonomic terms. Humans are part of the taxonomic group Hominoidea. Whether this is synonymous with the ENGLISH term 'great apes' depends entirely on when you learned your evolutionary science within even the last few decades. It was only relative recently that 'great apes' did NOT include humans...yet taxonomically humans were still hominids. The word 'ape' translates to French as 'singe' which is actually the word only used for monkeys...so to argue that 'humans are apes' depends entirely on which language you are using, whereas the taxonomical terms ( being Latin ) are the same in all languages.

Not only that but it is also very recent ( since the arrival of more thorough DNA testing ) that taxonomic groups were defined entirely by clades ( a group derived solely from a common ancestor ). You can see in the "Changes in taxonomy and terminology" here that the taxonomy itself has undergone constant change.....yet the word 'ape'...not actually being a scientific term....has been defined largely by semantics.
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Re: Humans ARE NOT Descended From Apes

Postby Monster » Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:55 pm

Cygnus_X1 wrote:Oh dear. Well...as per your idiotic request, Sweetpea, here is the thread.

Sweetpea quote : "bobbo didn't know that humans descended from other apes, and yet he thinks he knows something about climate."
"This keeps getting better. Start a thread. Please. Title it "Humans ARE NOT descended from Apes"."

No, contrary to your claims on that thread, Sweetpea, humans indeed are NOT descended from apes. Only a complete moron, utterly ignorant of science, thinks otherwise.

"Humans did not evolve from apes, gorillas or chimps."

http://www.livescience.com/32503-why-ha ... umans.html

" Humans did not evolve from monkeys. Humans are more closely related to modern apes than to monkeys, but we didn't evolve from apes, either "

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/libra ... cat02.html

Why in the world would you restart this topic?
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Re: Humans ARE NOT Descended From Apes

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:53 pm

Cygnus_X1 wrote:This is precisely why science contains concise definitions...
I know that and I have screwed up myself and used the wrong word and had to identify my error publicly and move on. It's not big news. Don't bog down responding to a Sweetpea "definition" challenge as it is a waste of time, from a denier troll.

As for Sweetpea's actual knowledge of human evolution, well that's where the fun begins. Sweetpea voted for the argument that "Hominids consciously wanting to evolve, evolved into Modern man by eating magic mushrooms, a cult belief being promoted by a "Woo" member called Zeuzzz. Even more fun Sweetpea posted numerous articles that he claimed indicated that epigenetics allowed for this, which is clearly ridiculous as all epigenetic mechanisms evolved through normal evolution. My cat knows more about human evolution than Sweetpea. :D

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Re: Humans ARE NOT Descended From Apes

Postby Frank Hoffman » Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:14 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:For example, coelacanth hasn't needed to evolve much, little pressure in its niche. Others may have actually devolved, see "Tea Party" for examples of this.

OOh, I love the Coelacanth! I remember they caught one off Madagascar when I was in Junior High School. Isn't it strange how an ugly fish can make me feel good so many years later?

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Re: Humans ARE NOT Descended From Apes

Postby Tom Palven » Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:00 am

According to Wikipedia, the family Homidae, the great apes, includes orangutans, gorillas, chimpanzees, and humans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape

It's probably a matter of definition as the whether humans descended from lesser apes, but in any case, humans are apes!
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Re: Humans ARE NOT Descended From Apes

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:23 am

Frank Hoffman wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:For example, coelacanth hasn't needed to evolve much, little pressure in its niche. Others may have actually devolved, see "Tea Party" for examples of this.

OOh, I love the Coelacanth! I remember they caught one off Madagascar when I was in Junior High School. Isn't it strange how an ugly fish can make me feel good so many years later?

Big old Homer Simpson fish. :mrgreen:
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Re: Humans ARE NOT Descended From Apes

Postby djembeweaver » Sun Oct 18, 2015 4:13 pm

FWIW I think this is a silly argument, based on semantics, for which there is no definitive right or wrong answer since it all depends on how one defines 'ape'.

As far as I can see the term has changed in meaning several times and now comprises 'great apes' (which includes humans) and 'lesser apes'. Since both groups had a common ancestor it seems to me that that ancestor could not have been an 'ape' itself since 'apes' (both great and lesser) evolved from it. Saying that 'apes' evolved from 'apes' is meaningless.

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Re: Humans ARE NOT Descended From Apes

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Oct 18, 2015 4:38 pm

The objection my MoBap relatives have is that there is only one humans and they are directly from God. So we can't have descended from a "lesser animal". (Note that they imply that they're "greater animals". )
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Re: Humans ARE NOT Descended From Apes

Postby Gord » Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:40 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:(Note that they imply that they're "greater animals". )

(Maybe if they ate less...?)
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Re: Humans ARE NOT Descended From Apes

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Oct 18, 2015 10:06 pm

Gord wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:(Note that they imply that they're "greater animals". )

(Maybe if they ate less...?)

Or maybe be less beastly?
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Re: Humans ARE NOT Descended From Apes

Postby Gord » Sun Oct 18, 2015 10:15 pm

Image
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Re: Humans ARE NOT Descended From Apes

Postby Hex » Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:01 pm

Gord wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:(Note that they imply that they're "greater animals". )

(Maybe if they ate less...?)

Funny enough I watched a program once where the hypothesis was that because of humans evolving diet we became less reliant on the need for a strong bite which shrunk our jaw and the muscles that where needed to produce greater bite power. In return for the weakened nature of our bite it enabled evolution to create more room for our brains to grow making us more intelligent.
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Re: Humans ARE NOT Descended From Apes

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:32 pm

Some of us, maybe.
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Re: Humans ARE NOT Descended From Apes

Postby Frank Hoffman » Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:56 pm

Hex wrote:...because of humans evolving diet we became less reliant on the need for a strong bite which shrunk our jaw and the muscles that where needed to produce greater bite power. In return for the weakened nature of our bite it enabled evolution to create more room for our brains to grow making us more intelligent.

Sounds like some custodian-and-TV-writer found a rejected doctoral thesis in the university trash and was able to locate a buyer.

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Re: Humans ARE NOT Descended From Apes

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:10 pm

Well.....I think the discovery of fire which made protein more accessible is the major diet change that did allow for the brain case to expand.

ie==current best accepted theory.
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Re: Humans ARE NOT Descended From Apes

Postby Hex » Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:27 pm

Frank Hoffman wrote:
Hex wrote:...because of humans evolving diet we became less reliant on the need for a strong bite which shrunk our jaw and the muscles that where needed to produce greater bite power. In return for the weakened nature of our bite it enabled evolution to create more room for our brains to grow making us more intelligent.

Sounds like some custodian-and-TV-writer found a rejected doctoral thesis in the university trash and was able to locate a buyer.

I haven't a clue and I'm not going into a defensible position because I couldn't quote the source as I forget beyond, "It was from a program like Nature or something similar." and it was an interesting thought but not interesting enough to compel me to look into it further for more evidence.

My very subtle reason for posting it was just to make the point that human evolution, well all evolution is a complex thing and requires a lot of moving parts. Gords post just helped jog my mind as to that one story and enabled me to tie in my post with the thread. I could've used other more substantive examples but it just seemed to flow.
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Re: Humans ARE NOT Descended From Apes

Postby Frank Hoffman » Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:25 pm

Hex wrote:I could've used other more substantive examples but it just seemed to flow.

My tone was too harsh, I was trying to be funny but it came out snippy. Sometimes I just write a response to demonstrate I am not yet comatose, it has no significance or substantial intent. My apologies.

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Re: Humans ARE NOT Descended From Apes

Postby Gord » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:20 am

Hex wrote:Gords post just helped jog my mind

That goes against my strict regime of laziness! You should sit your mind, let it relax, maybe watch a game and drink some beer and eat some nachos.

Frank Hoffman wrote:Sometimes I just write a response to demonstrate I am not yet comatose

I often post to demonstrate that I am comatose. Of all the -toses, it is the laziest!
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