Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Apr 23, 2016 12:34 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Well, its about bacteria--not viruses.
If you read the article, the main point was that the bacteria must have had characteristics of a virus otherwise it would have its own reproductive cycle. Viruses use the host cell to produce their own DNA. For mitochondria to carried on normal female chromosomes suggest it must of had characteristics of a virus.

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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby Gord » Sat Apr 23, 2016 1:57 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:it must of had

:shakefist:

it must have had

or

it must've had
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby Major Malfunction » Sat Apr 23, 2016 5:27 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Major Malfunction wrote: We don't have the coding for mitochondria in our DNA.
Are you saying that mitochondria does not appear on Female human DNA on a normal chromosome? That would be a very strange thing to say. How do you think the DNA for Mitochondria is carried down between generations? :D

That's exactly what I'm saying, Matt. I don't know how to put it any more simply.

The mitochondria are a separate little unit that lives inside the cell. It has its own DNA, and reproduces independently from the cell.

There's a lot of them floating about in the cellular cytoplasm, and when the cell divides some go one way, and some go the other. That's how they're carried through the generations.

The reason we use mitochondrial DNA to study matrilineal decent is because the mitochondria in our cells all come from the single Mother Cell. The egg cell from our mother.

Cells within cells, stretching back to the dawn of time. Mind-blowing, I know. That's why I studied chemistry, biology, physics, ecology, environmental science, psychology, and cosmology. I spent a lot of time at uni. Seven years. I wanted to understand. At least have a grasp, of the what, why and how.

Biology was always my favourite.

We should get together one day over a couple beers, and a doobie, and I'll bring a couple of my old textbooks.
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby ElectricMonk » Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:41 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Major Malfunction wrote: We don't have the coding for mitochondria in our DNA.
Are you saying that mitochondria does not appear on Female human DNA on a normal chromosome? That would be a very strange thing to say. How do you think the DNA for Mitochondria is carried down between generations? :D


Mitochondria have their own DNA and replicate it themselves - though over time, some genes have moved to the cell nucleus. That's why you can trace female lineage, since only the oocyte's mitochondria are passed on.
That's analogous to chloroplasts of plants - which, btw, contain mitochondria, too.
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby Major Malfunction » Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:59 am

No. There is NO mitochondrial DNA in the cell nucleus. It's not negotiable. It's a physical fact. Like gravity.
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby ElectricMonk » Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:33 am

I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby Major Malfunction » Sat Apr 23, 2016 12:34 pm

Hmph. OK. Now I'm being schooled. Thank you. Thank you for the link. My information is a quarter of a century old, after all.

I'll read it in detail and come back.
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:49 pm

Its always the case: the tyranny of either/or thinking. My first wiki link and review was that the degree to which mito is independent from the hooman dna falls on a CONTINUUM...... as most things do. Easier to avoid the vagueness and ambiguity by thinking all one way or the other.

Contra: and again: its all right there in the Title of the Relationship: Symbiosis. TWO creatures living/relying on each other to each others benefit. Not a parasite, not a merging.

WORDS. So much history, culture..... SCIENCE, in everyday language that we blithely IGNORE.

Its all right there..... at the tip of our tongues: just look.
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby Major Malfunction » Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:14 pm

A quick skim says most of the coding in the cell DNA for stuff the mitochondria needs was invented by the cell on the fly to feed the mitochondria. Not injected by the mitochondria.

It says the mitochondria lost their own genes for that stuff, because the cell was feeding them.

Kinda like we lost the ability to synthesise ascorbic acid, because well, there's fruit everywhere!
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:25 pm

I was trying to work out why people were claiming that mitochordria is not part of our DNA carried on chromosomes yet simultaneously acknowledging mitochondria is carried on the female chromosome. :D

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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby Major Malfunction » Wed May 04, 2016 6:36 am

Here's a reasonable summary...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf06MlX8yik
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby Major Malfunction » Wed May 04, 2016 6:39 am

Gord wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:it must of had

:shakefist:

it must have had

or

it must've had

Mustafad!
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby Gord » Wed May 04, 2016 4:30 pm

Major Malfunction wrote:
Gord wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:it must of had

:shakefist:

it must have had

or

it must've had

Mustafad!

Mustaffaed.
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed May 04, 2016 4:41 pm

MM===http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf06MlX8yik ///// Thanks for posting that. BLEW MY MIND. I think I even understand the maths of the original challenge to the pro types. But...how do we know it was only done once? Seems to me....if two kinds of pro's can bond in endosymbiosis...why couldn't any two pairs of the same kind do it? In fact, I'd have to bet they did....we can't tell them apart...but things rarely happen only once.

How does anything happen?..................... and the answer is ATP? Good to know!
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby Major Malfunction » Thu May 05, 2016 8:16 am

Well, as I posted in the comments it's likely to have happened a lot, in a lot of different combinations, but this particular one was so successful that it totally out-competed all the other variants into extinction.
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby OlegTheBatty » Thu May 05, 2016 8:06 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Well, its about bacteria--not viruses.
If you read the article, the main point was that the bacteria must have had characteristics of a virus otherwise it would have its own reproductive cycle. Viruses use the host cell to produce their own DNA. For mitochondria to carried on normal female chromosomes suggest it must of had characteristics of a virus.

Mitochondria do have their own reproductive cycle. What they don't have is all the genes they had when the symbiosis first took place. Gradually, over time, a bunch of the mitochondrial DNA has migrated to the nuclear DNA. The mitochondria no longer need that DNA for much the same reason that when you move from Murmansk to Mombasa, you don't need to take your parka with you.
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby Gord » Thu May 05, 2016 10:22 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:The mitochondria no longer need that DNA for much the same reason that when you move from Murmansk to Mombasa, you don't need to take your parka with you.

Wouldn't a better analogy be, "When you move from the farm to the city, you don't need to take your pigs with you"? 'Cause in the city, you can just go buy the pork and skip all the pig-raising-and-slaughtering.
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu May 05, 2016 11:18 pm

...................on another thread the comment was made that someone was "pig ignorant" about history. Obviously, the comment was not directed at you.

Every notice Matt NEVER admits to an error...................the close cousin of never learning anything?
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu May 05, 2016 11:20 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote: Mitochondria do have their own reproductive cycle. What they don't have is all the genes they had when the symbiosis first took place. Gradually, over time, a bunch of the mitochondrial DNA has migrated to the nuclear DNA. The mitochondria no longer need that DNA for much the same reason that when you move from Murmansk to Mombasa, you don't need to take your parka with you.


I'm with you on that. I was pointing out that Mitochondrial DNA is carried on our human chromosomes. At an earlier part of this thread, it was being argued otherwise, which made no sense.

(That suggested that somehow our mitochondria snuck out at night and had sex with other mitochondria at sleazy bars with their own isolated reproductive system, that no one could identify to me. ) :D

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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu May 05, 2016 11:22 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:.Every notice Matt NEVER admits to an error...................the close cousin of never learning anything?


Ever notice that Bobbo never checks his facts first....... :lol:

I have backed down in discussions with Oleg numerous times. Oleg is the person who knows that. We have both been forum members for a very long time.

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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby Gord » Fri May 06, 2016 1:18 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Every notice Matt NEVER admits to an error...................the close cousin of never learning anything?

Do you ever admit to errors? Your own, I mean; not Matthew Ellard's. :P
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri May 06, 2016 12:07 pm

Gord wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Every notice Matt NEVER admits to an error...................the close cousin of never learning anything?

Do you ever admit to errors? Your own, I mean; not Matthew Ellard's. :P

Of course I do..........and relevantly: more than most. Its called:

"Being honest, direct, learning from mistakes." aka: Not stuck in the mud.

Failure to admit mistakes is an all too common flaw among the intelligentsia, and most of those posting on forums. I RELISH finding errors on my part......................not spelling errors of course, those are for pedantic nit pickers with nothing else to contribute.
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby Major Malfunction » Fri May 06, 2016 2:33 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote: Mitochondria do have their own reproductive cycle. What they don't have is all the genes they had when the symbiosis first took place. Gradually, over time, a bunch of the mitochondrial DNA has migrated to the nuclear DNA. The mitochondria no longer need that DNA for much the same reason that when you move from Murmansk to Mombasa, you don't need to take your parka with you.


I'm with you on that. I was pointing out that Mitochondrial DNA is carried on our human chromosomes. At an earlier part of this thread, it was being argued otherwise, which made no sense.

(That suggested that somehow our mitochondria snuck out at night and had sex with other mitochondria at sleazy bars with their own isolated reproductive system, that no one could identify to me. ) :D

*sigh*

They do reproduce themselves. The cell provides them with everything they need to survive, but the cell doesn't build new mitochondria. They reproduce themselves inside the cell, with their own DNA. There's no code in human DNA on how to build a new mitochondria, only the food it likes to eat.
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri May 06, 2016 3:32 pm

Ha, ha........ after about the fourth time and several links on topic, what will Matt finally recognize?????

A spelling error............. or will he simply repeat himself again?

................I can't wait.
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby Gord » Fri May 06, 2016 5:51 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Gord wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Every notice Matt NEVER admits to an error...................the close cousin of never learning anything?

Do you ever admit to errors? Your own, I mean; not Matthew Ellard's. :P

Of course I do....

Got links?

...and relevantly: more than most.

Perhaps you should make fewer mistakes to begin with. :P
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby Major Malfunction » Fri May 06, 2016 8:07 pm

The story goes, all the organelles in the cell were probably adopted prokaryotes at some point, but have lived in comfortable symbiosis for such a long time that they've totally lost all their own RNA/DNA, either combined, co-opted, &/or re-invented in the DNA of the cell (this is unclear, as there's no solid evidence, as there's no self-contained DNA) and only their primary structure and functions remain. Which is what makes mitochondria so interesting. They are the only organelles that seem to retain their own separate DNA.

Which might mean they were late to the party. And haven't yet fully combined. Or it might be some other bunch of reasons. In some species they have.

So when we study mitochondrial DNA, we're not looking at human DNA. We're extracting -specifically- the DNA from the mitochondria contained within the cytoplasm. Not from the cell nucleus.

So in a cell, there's nuclear DNA. And there's mtDNA. Two wholly separate things.
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri May 06, 2016 8:31 pm

Gord wrote:Got links?

Not my issue.

Gord wrote:Perhaps you should make fewer mistakes to begin with. :P

Of course, making the fewest mistakes possible is a goal for all of us in all endeavors, but thats way too complicated an issue on which to engage a spell checker. Pedantry aside, I'd give it some body, if it were even the issue of this sidebar as far afield as it is already.

Just note: the error of correcting typo's in the context of actual issues being addressed. Did you: take note, at all? Perhaps you should make fewer mistakes to begin with.
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby Gord » Sat May 07, 2016 2:02 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Gord wrote:Got links?

Not my issue.

That's gross.

Gord wrote:Just note: the error of correcting typo's in the context of actual issues being addressed. Did you: take note, at all? Perhaps you should make fewer mistakes to begin with.

I note many errors -- mannnnyyyyyyyyyyyyy -- and offer corrections when prompted by my inner demons. My lazy, lazy, inner spelling demons. So for instance, I may correct one of your typos, but leave the rest alone.

Yeah, like that!
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat May 07, 2016 11:13 am

I enjoy most of your corrections, even while noting they put a drag on conversation.

Part of the joy of actually appreciating one's own errors and correcting them is the recognition that all positions have pros and cons.

I think on balance that all typos should be ignored....unless and until they affect the comprehensibility of what is being said. NOT the same as typos, is incorrect word usage. Its hard to typo "of" into "have"...but like an octopus, our appendages have their own muscle memory. Typo or usage? Who knows?

Of note, when you recognize or admit to posting BECAUSE OF your (own) inner demons....thats a touch stone as well. Course, I do know that is hyperbole. Demons being what they are.
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat May 07, 2016 4:40 pm

Related to the off topic sidebar: "Here’s how gut microbes train your immune system to dodge disease", another symbiotic relationship...although not as close as the wonderous mitochondria. http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/05/ ... e-disease/

"Complex Life Forms"===before this thread, I thought of that phrase meaning multi-cellular, but now, I take it as the various combo infusions of life forms of the symbiotic type. Life-it truly is gobsmacking.
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby Gord » Sat May 07, 2016 6:45 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I enjoy most of your corrections, even while noting they put a drag on conversation.

That's subjective. I find corrections to be the highlight of our conversations. They provide lift, not drag.

I think on balance that all typos should be ignored....unless and until they affect the comprehensibility of what is being said.

I submit that all typos affect the comprehensibility of what is being written. It is difficult to understand what is said when distarkted by a toypoe.

Of note, when you recognize or admit to posting BECAUSE OF your (own) inner demons....

Is all humour lost on you? Perhaps you have an anti-humour demon within you that eats every humorous thing that enters. Have you considered having your humours tested? (I feel the need to say the word "spleen" now but I'm having trouble working it into the sentence.)

thats a touch stone as well. Course, I do know that is hyperbole. Demons being what they are.

that's

*spleen!*
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat May 07, 2016 7:34 pm

Gord wrote:
Of note, when you recognize or admit to posting BECAUSE OF your (own) inner demons....

Is all humour lost on you? Perhaps you have an anti-humour demon within you that eats every humorous thing that enters. Have you considered having your humours tested? (I feel the need to say the word "spleen" now but I'm having trouble working it into the sentence.)

High irony in complaining about lack of sense of humor by failing to respond to it at the same time.

Now that that has been exspleened to you, I am comforted that you will see my posts literally oozing with humors all over the place................. or not.
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby Gord » Sat May 07, 2016 8:56 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Gord wrote:
Of note, when you recognize or admit to posting BECAUSE OF your (own) inner demons....

Is all humour lost on you? Perhaps you have an anti-humour demon within you that eats every humorous thing that enters. Have you considered having your humours tested? (I feel the need to say the word "spleen" now but I'm having trouble working it into the sentence.)

High irony in complaining about lack of sense of humor by failing to respond to it at the same time.

Yes, I agree it would be. And yet here we are.

Now that that has been exspleened to you, I am comforted that you will see my posts literally oozing with humors all over the place................. or not.

The problem is not the humour within your own posts, but the lack of it in yourself. I continually feed it to you, and yet you claimed earlier not to have consumed it. My next funny word will be "moist". I love "moist". It just feels and sounds so moist when you say it (or when you feel it, for that matter).
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun May 08, 2016 12:07 am

Gord wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:[quote=High irony in complaining about lack of sense of humor by failing to respond to it at the same time.

Yes, I agree it would be. And yet here we are.


As you enjoy correcting spelling errors, my own joy is on the similar level of syntax and context. I moist tell you that your statement is inconsistent. "Yes, I agree it would be." Makes no sense on its own as you either agree or not: 'Yes, I agree it is////or is not." "Would" doesn't fit at all. Separate from that nonsense is the non sequitur of "And yet here we are." The irony is established without any underlying conflict for it not to have been created. There is no "and yet" to the here that we are.

I'm chuckling, sure that you are amused as well.
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby Gord » Sun May 08, 2016 6:15 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Gord wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:[quote=High irony in complaining about lack of sense of humor by failing to respond to it at the same time.

Yes, I agree it would be. And yet here we are.


As you enjoy correcting spelling errors, my own joy is on the similar level of syntax and context. I moist tell you that your statement is inconsistent. "Yes, I agree it would be." Makes no sense on its own as you either agree or not: 'Yes, I agree it is////or is not." "Would" doesn't fit at all.

Nah.

There is no "and yet" to the here that we are.

Well there was at the time.
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby Austin Harper » Thu May 12, 2016 5:21 pm

NPR wrote:Look, Ma! No Mitochondria
Scientists have found a microbe that does something textbooks say is impossible: It's a complex cell that survives without mitochondria.
Mitochondria are the powerhouses inside eukaryotic cells, the type of complicated cell that makes up people, other critters and plants and fungi. All eukaryotic cells contain a nucleus and little organelles — and one of the most famous was the mitochondrion.
(continued)
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm

Austin: Great find. Thanks for the link. You know...........that Darwin guy just never stopped writing.

Nature: awesome in its complexity. Humbling.
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby Gord » Thu May 12, 2016 6:24 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:that Darwin guy just never stopped writing.

He's not a ghost, and ghost writers aren't what you seem to think they are.
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu May 12, 2016 6:52 pm

So...........should we rank order how out of touch you are?

Wanna talk about the wonder of nature/universe, ghosts, evolution======> or what in the main you lack appreciation for in anyone but yourself: a sense of humor?

I will accept, but not expect, nothing but a witty punch back.
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Re: Genome Analysis Of The Duck-Billed Platypus

Postby Gord » Thu May 12, 2016 7:22 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:So...........should we rank order how out of touch you are?

Wanna talk about the wonder of nature/universe, ghosts, evolution======> or what in the main you lack appreciation for in anyone but yourself: a sense of humor?

I will accept, but not expect, nothing but a witty punch back.

What exactly did you find humorous about what you wrote, and why do you feel the need to defend it?

I love humour. But I can only see it where it actually exists, not where you want it to exist. If you found what you wrote funny, then I think you need to work on your delivery. :P
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